Mass Effect 3: Leviathan: My Thoughts

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#1 Edited by hangedtoaster (156 posts) -

 Edit: Could some awesome mod maybe pin this to the ME3 board? In my excitement I forgot too =(
 
Hey you! Person who hasn't played Mass Effect 3 or obviously Leviathan! DON'T READ THIS THAR BE SPOILERS 
 
I feel that title could use more colons, meh can't have everything. So yeah I totally downloaded and completed Leviathan this morning, and well on one hand it's more Mass Effect 3 so that's great, I love the game. Now there is a gigantic "But" to that sentence, I'd like to know when exactly this was conceived during the development of ME3 either option of before launch or after launch would help to clear some things up. Ok here come the SPOILERS which I will politely conceal behind a spoiler tag, aren't I great? 
 

Overall I had a lot of fun playing through Leviathan, playing on normal it clocked in at around 2.5 hours, well worth $10 I'd say, So if your a fan of Mass Effect  go pick it up learn the secrets of what Leviathan really is! Unless you read the spoiler tag in which case yeah crazy.  
 
So post your comments maybe keep chit chat about the true nature of the Leviathan to a minimum though  
 
I'm Out! <3
#2 Posted by Aetheldod (3737 posts) -

Does this DLC affect the ending in any way? (Not saying if it redoes it of whatever , but does it add to it ....no spoilers please :D)

#3 Edited by GetEveryone (4458 posts) -

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

#4 Posted by cmblasko (1354 posts) -

The more time Bioware spends trying to exonerate its broken logic, the less coherent it becomes.

#5 Posted by Demoskinos (15181 posts) -
@GetEveryone

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

#6 Posted by Sweep (8986 posts) -

We don't pin reviews. Sorry, duder.

Moderator
#7 Posted by SmasheControllers (2553 posts) -

In comparison to ME2's DLC, I think Leviathan is pretty awesome.

#8 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -
@Sweep

We don't pin reviews. Sorry, duder.

I think he means for someone to move it to the Mass Effect 3 forum.
#9 Posted by NTM (7549 posts) -

So, I saw some of it on YouTube, and to me, it seems like it has to do with indoctrination. Why does it seem like Bioware really saw the outrage and theories of the original ending and is basing everything they do now when it comes to ME3 around that? "No, no, the ending isn't indocrination, but for those that did believe that was it, we have this DLC that has to do with indoctrination. Yayyyy!" Maybe I'm wrong though.

#10 Edited by Sweep (8986 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@Sweep

We don't pin reviews. Sorry, duder.

I think he means for someone to move it to the Mass Effect 3 forum.

Oh right. In which case YEAH, we are all about that biz.

Moderator
#11 Posted by hangedtoaster (156 posts) -
@Sweep: Yeah just moving it to the Mass Effect 3 forum =P  
 
I haven't let my non- existent internet fame go to my head that much. 
 
@Aetheldod: I don't know about that. Sorry =( 
 
@GetEveryone: I'm starting to think everyone at Bioware has gone insane, or are complete geniuses for getting all this press
#12 Posted by Heltom92 (715 posts) -

So this DLC is just building on the idea that Reapers annihilate nearly everything to stop synthetics from annihilating everything. Even though Shepard spends a significant amount of time in this series proving the Geth can work with the other species?

Great.

#13 Edited by tallTuck94 (553 posts) -

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

They Heavily hinted in the ending of the game...

That Starchild went against the Leviathans will.
Starchild was an AI created to solve the conflicts between organics and synthetics. The Leviathans didn't anticipate that Starchild would come up with the solution it did. They were turned against their will into the first and most numerous Reapers.
It might be confusing but it's

Seriously I'm sick of people hating on Bioware for shit that isn't warrented. I'm not denying that there is shit wrong with Mass Effect but the hate Bioware gets is fucking insane.

@Heltom92 said:

So this DLC is just building on the idea that Reapers annihilate nearly everything to stop synthetics from annihilating everything. Even though Shepard spends a significant amount of time in this series proving the Geth can work with the other species?

Great.

Shepards Cycle is the first cycle to broker peace between Synths and Organics and even then it's only one possibility of what can happen in 3.

The Starchild has seen countless cycles (it could be a million cycles!) fail to find peace between the two. He built a solution to make sure organics were not wiped out due to what he percieved as over reaching.

It's like religion to me. It's obvious it's not the right solution but it's still this juggernaut that's in control and it can't comprehend that something might be different.

#14 Edited by GetEveryone (4458 posts) -

@tallTuck94 said:

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

They Heavily hinted in the ending of the game...

That Starchild went against the Leviathans will.
Starchild was an AI created to solve the conflicts between organics and synthetics. The Leviathans didn't anticipate that Starchild would come up with the solution it did. They were turned against their will into the first and most numerous Reapers.
It might be confusing but it's

Seriously I'm sick of people hating on Bioware for shit that isn't warrented. I'm not denying that there is shit wrong with Mass Effect but the hate Bioware gets is fucking insane.

It's absolutely warranted. Your alternate take is, in essence, what I wrote and the ending remains opaque fluff.

There is nothing wrong with mystery. At all. Explaining away your years-in-the-making mythology with a convoluted five-minute wrap-up is very poor story-telling, indeed.

Hyphens.

#15 Edited by familyphotoshoot (654 posts) -

From the BSN:

"So Shepard encouraged at least three members of an ancient slavemaster coral-squid-god species with tendencies towards megalomania and mind-control powers to re-emerge into the galaxy. A galaxy they once utterly dominated using limitless power with no concern for thralls of "lesser species". It took the Reapers to stop them last time, even if the Leviathans can somehow kill them *with their minds*.

Then we gave their mind-control artefacts TO OUR OWN FORCES TO SPREAD AROUND THE GALAXY. Even after Leviathan - who wasn't 'born' when its species was cast down - reminisces about the good old days of blood tributes and complete control of the galaxy."

Yay! Oh, wait... no.

Quality BioWare writing.

#16 Posted by tallTuck94 (553 posts) -

@GetEveryone: The way you stated it though makes it seem that the Leviathans purpose was to wipe out their species and create the reaper cycle and that's not the case.

#18 Edited by GetEveryone (4458 posts) -

@tallTuck94 said:

@GetEveryone: The way you stated it though makes it seem that the Leviathans purpose was to wipe out their species and create the reaper cycle and that's not the case.

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI that created synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

Better?

Seriously, though, I see where you are coming from. It is slightly less obtuse than I'm claiming it is, but for the most part the ending that Bioware have wrapped their universe up with is total drivel.

#19 Edited by tallTuck94 (553 posts) -

@GetEveryone: Yeah I maybe got worked up way too much about something rather small.

As I said in my original post I do think that there are huge things wrong with the mechanics of 3's ending such as the coloured explosions.

However I think in general the actual story and timeline is pretty good, the only thing I disliked was the games obsession with that bloody kid.

Edit: The way the Leviathan information is put forward is dumb though. The information should have been part of a DLC with nothing to do with Shepard.

#20 Posted by Yummylee (22579 posts) -

Yeah, the Star-Child outright admits that he rebelled against his creators to create his Reapers during the extended cut ending. And I guess it all makes sense when you piece it together, but... I mean... Leviathian Reapers created an AI to help come up with a solution stop AI's from... rebelling against their creators, which then rebels against its creator (oops) and then makes its own version of Reapers to create the cycle and PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTT

I don't know if I'm just fed up and I've become complacent towards this Reaper clusterfuck because it's easier, or if I'm just starting to accept the fiction because I guess it at least makes sense in its own convoluted way? Probably a bit of both.

#21 Posted by Ghostiet (5343 posts) -
@cmblasko said:

The more time Bioware spends trying to exonerate its broken logic, the less coherent it becomes.

This. And I thought the Extended Cut was bad.
#22 Posted by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

My Thoughts:

Everything is just dumped on you which removes any sense of mystery about the first race, even though we already knew that they looked like cuttlefish since it's already said that the Reapers take their form after their creators as a sort of exoskeleton. It still happens to quickly. It's like BioWare has the idea of how to get to a conclusion, but they don't know how to properly deliver a conclusion. The climax and resolution happen within the span of 15 minutes... that's TERRIBLE storytelling.

It contradicts itself a few major times. Like the whole, "Hey! I just found an ancient powerful species that created the most feared enemy in the galaxy. They have the power to control minds and consider themselves the apex of all species and even openly admitted to subjugating and enslaving other species, making them thralls to pay tribute and carry out their every whim. They even threatened turning me into one of their thralls the moment I found their little hidey hole. LET'S ASK FOR THEIR HELP AND LET THEM LOOSE ON THE GALAXY AND ACTIVELY SPREAD THEIR MIND CONTROL DEVICES!" Then also the fact that the cuttlefish can kill a Reaper and does so in game with the flick of a wrist, so exactly HOW were they extinguished given that they have such power? I mean it's stated that the Reapers had a form of mind control similar to the creators but it took cycles to perfect it into indoctrination, but the cuttlefish can apparently shatter that indoctrination like it's nothing. Then the fact that they're supposed to be this all powerful and all knowing race that watched their thralls develop AI's that rebelled against them, so in turn they themselves make an AI without the foresight to think, "Well shit, what happens if this thing rebels against us?"

Also if you're playing on PC there's a glitch with the ladder where you can't go down it during the second main mission when you have to get to a scientist. You have to constantly look up to go down.

@Aetheldod: Like 2 or 3 extra little bits of dialogue at the end. I haven't gone through all the endings for obvious reasons, being that I'm not a masochist, but it's more of a backstory on where the Reapers come from instead of anything else. But the writing feels insanely fucking rushed.

#23 Posted by joshthebear (2700 posts) -

Meh. At this point I don't think there's anything that could get me excited for more Mass Effect.

#24 Posted by Extreme_Popcorn (842 posts) -

I enjoyed it and felt it was worth the money I paid for it with a good mix of combat and story. They clearly took time to make it, it's not just something they've slapped together and pushed out as DLC. There are a couple of new worlds which make it feel like an addition to the story and not just a single area tacked on after the game is done.

As for the story...anything that helps to explain the ending is a good thing in my book, they took a step in the right direction with the extended cut which answered a lot of questions I had and it's good that they are fleshing out the back story. People give the ending a lot of undue flack but I've yet to hear another ending that makes more sense and fits in with the Mass Effect story and the universe than the one Bioware made. The original ending was fucking appalling and I'd love to know why they ended it like that but they've made it for it with the Extended cut and Leviathan. Pity it's too late for most people.

#25 Posted by believer258 (12211 posts) -

I'm going to stick with the vanilla game.

...actually, I'm just going to stick with the first and second games.

#26 Posted by FreakAche (2955 posts) -

I didn't really find ME2's DLC to be worthwhile. Shadow Broker was cool I guess, but not nearly as good as everyone made it out to be. It was just barely worth the price. How does this stack up to the ME2 DLC?

#27 Posted by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

@FreakAche:

Shadow Broker is quite a bit better. Leviathan is second in the list of all ME DLC's. Like I said, it has some cool moments but the story is rushed and a wave of shit is dumped on you in 15 minutes. Still better than Arrival though.

#28 Posted by kyrieee (379 posts) -

@Aetheldod said:

Does this DLC affect the ending in any way? (Not saying if it redoes it of whatever , but does it add to it ....no spoilers please :D)

It adds a few lines, yes. Don't get excited about that part though

#29 Posted by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

Bioware can eat ten pounds of dick in a five pound bag. I pondered giving Leviathan a chance, but thought better of it and reading your spoilers I'm happy I didn't. They managed to tangle themselves even more up in their garbage roundabout ass-backwards logic.

Casey Hudson or whoever okayed the direction of the storyline of the Mass Effectseries after 2 should be lobotimized.

It's a damn shame the original direction of the series was scrapped to that dreck we were served.

#30 Posted by holybins (159 posts) -

I want to know three things:

1. Where did the leviathans come from?

2. How many are there? Just those three, or are they all over the place?

3. What the hell do those three do all day, in a vast ocean, for millions or billions of years?

#31 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

I may have missed it on the schedule, but I think I understand why Bioware apparently isn't holding a Mass Effect panel at PAX Prime this year.

They would be crucified.

#32 Posted by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

@tallTuck94 said:

@GetEveryone said:


Seriously I'm sick of people hating on Bioware for shit that isn't warrented. I'm not denying that there is shit wrong with Mass Effect but the hate Bioware gets is fucking insane.

Maybe "the hate" is a little bit earned because what if you read what you just wrote is what happened AND IT IS JUST IDIOTIC.

#33 Posted by tallTuck94 (553 posts) -

@EXTomar said:

@tallTuck94 said:

@GetEveryone said:


Seriously I'm sick of people hating on Bioware for shit that isn't warrented. I'm not denying that there is shit wrong with Mass Effect but the hate Bioware gets is fucking insane.

Maybe "the hate" is a little bit earned because what if you read what you just wrote is what happened AND IT IS JUST IDIOTIC.

No It isn't people are implying that the Leviathans purposefully created the Reapers and the cycle, that would be just Idiotic. What I wrote is that the Leviathans created an AI which then betrayed them.

That's quite a big difference.

#34 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -

I feel like this thread is begging for a visit from the Xzibit meme

#35 Posted by Dad_Is_A_Zombie (1212 posts) -

@cmblasko said:

The more time Bioware spends trying to exonerate its broken logic, the less coherent it becomes.

Sad but true.

#36 Posted by BrockNRolla (1694 posts) -

Either your explanation is incoherent, or Bioware continues to prove they had no idea what they were doing with ME 3's storyline.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

#37 Posted by pweidman (2365 posts) -

I loved it. Perfect balance of story, exploration, and combat...in all new very cool locations. My fav ME DLC to date. Polished and thoughtfully designed imo.

The Leviathan being an ancient race is perfectly plausible, and their having a unique long term perspective on the Reaper harvests was fascinating. If you're a ME fan do not pass on this DLC is my recommendation.

#38 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

yeah Mass Effect has truly gone to a fucked up place.

R.I.P

#39 Posted by hangedtoaster (156 posts) -
@BrockNRolla: It's entirely possible that my explanation was incoherent, I had about 3 hours of sleep upon typing all that up so I'm positive some of it didn't make total sense, But the just of it remains the same  
 
#40 Posted by hangedtoaster (156 posts) -
@pweidman: Totally agree with you sentiments that if your a fan of the series you should play it, It's more mass effect to play and that is never a bad thing
#41 Posted by Mike76x (558 posts) -

@tallTuck94 said:

Shepards Cycle is the first cycle to broker peace between Synths and Organics and even then it's only one possibility of what can happen in 3.

The Starchild has seen countless cycles (it could be a million cycles!) fail to find peace between the two. He built a solution to make sure organics were not wiped out due to what he percieved as over reaching.

It's like religion to me. It's obvious it's not the right solution but it's still this juggernaut that's in control and it can't comprehend that something might be different.

Shepard's cycle is also the second known cycle where the synthetic "conflict" was completely created by the Reapers themselves, and then ended without need of Reaper "assistance".

Also the reject ending proves all they ever had to do was warn organics against synthetics and the Reapers would never be needed.

#42 Posted by golguin (4063 posts) -

@Sooty said:

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

yeah Mass Effect has truly gone to a fucked up place.

R.I.P

That isn't how it happened.

The organic reapers didn't create the AI to harvest organic life. They wanted a solution to the synthetic problem because their thralls (lower life forms compared to them) were creating synthetic life that ended up killing their race. The "leviathans" didn't want that happening because they needed the other races to do stuff for them. They couldn't stop the machines from killing their creators so the leviathans created an AI that would "preserve life at any cost".

The AI studied civilizations and eventually came up with a solution. That solution was the harvest and they betrayed the leviathans. They used the thrall races to beat the leviathans and eventually created Harbinger as the first reaper.

#43 Posted by Brendan (8173 posts) -

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

Bahaha it's so silly when you lay it out like that.

#44 Posted by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -

Reading your spoiler text gave me everything I wanted out of this DLC without having to buy it or play ME3 ever again, so thank you for the solid!

#45 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@golguin said:

@Sooty said:

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

yeah Mass Effect has truly gone to a fucked up place.

R.I.P

That isn't how it happened.

The organic reapers didn't create the AI to harvest organic life. They wanted a solution to the synthetic problem because their thralls (lower life forms compared to them) were creating synthetic life that ended up killing their race. The "leviathans" didn't want that happening because they needed the other races to do stuff for them. They couldn't stop the machines from killing their creators so the leviathans created an AI that would "preserve life at any cost".

The AI studied civilizations and eventually came up with a solution. That solution was the harvest and they betrayed the leviathans. They used the thrall races to beat the leviathans and eventually created Harbinger as the first reaper.

They created an AI to resolve the problem of AIs turning on their creators, and in the process, this new AI turned on its creators.

It would be ironic if it weren't so monumentally stupid.

#46 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

@tallTuck94 said:

@EXTomar said:

@tallTuck94 said:

@GetEveryone said:


Seriously I'm sick of people hating on Bioware for shit that isn't warrented. I'm not denying that there is shit wrong with Mass Effect but the hate Bioware gets is fucking insane.

Maybe "the hate" is a little bit earned because what if you read what you just wrote is what happened AND IT IS JUST IDIOTIC.

No It isn't people are implying that the Leviathans purposefully created the Reapers and the cycle, that would be just Idiotic. What I wrote is that the Leviathans created an AI which then betrayed them.

That's quite a big difference.

I guess you are correct. It was not idiotic for an author suggest a highly advanced alien race who thought it was problematic that synthetic life and organic life kept ending up in conflict to build a really big synthetic life form to solve the problem.

No wait that is pretty idiotic for even a sci-fi story where if you can not see how it offends even common sense then I'm not sure how to discuss it any farther. It doesn't matter if Leviathans where betrayed because this is a dumb plan to solve a conflict between synthetic and organics.

#47 Posted by golguin (4063 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@golguin said:

@Sooty said:

@GetEveryone said:

So there are organic reapers that create an AI to create synthetic reapers to harvest organic life every 50,000 years to prevent it developing synthetic life that would eventually wipe out every organic lifeform?

SHUT THE FUCK UP, BIOWARE.

yeah Mass Effect has truly gone to a fucked up place.

R.I.P

That isn't how it happened.

The organic reapers didn't create the AI to harvest organic life. They wanted a solution to the synthetic problem because their thralls (lower life forms compared to them) were creating synthetic life that ended up killing their race. The "leviathans" didn't want that happening because they needed the other races to do stuff for them. They couldn't stop the machines from killing their creators so the leviathans created an AI that would "preserve life at any cost".

The AI studied civilizations and eventually came up with a solution. That solution was the harvest and they betrayed the leviathans. They used the thrall races to beat the leviathans and eventually created Harbinger as the first reaper.

They created an AI to resolve the problem of AIs turning on their creators, and in the process, this new AI turned on its creators.

It would be ironic if it weren't so monumentally stupid.

Their explanation for doing it when they saw what it did to the other races was essentially, "It can't happen to us because we're beyond all other organics." If Mass Effect was about anything its that the hubris of organics will be its downfall. Just look at our society. How often has technological advancement provided the possibility of a double edged sword? People say, "you shouldn't do that" while others claim, "don't worry, we got this." We always have control of the situation until we don't.

#48 Posted by itsVASH (172 posts) -

So mass effect explanation in a nutshell... We are machines designed to harvest you (basically kill you) so that you do not create machines that will end up killing you... THIS IS WHY I HATE MASS EFFECT NOW

#49 Posted by Gerhabio (1977 posts) -

@Yummylee said:

Yeah, the Star-Child outright admits that he rebelled against his creators to create his Reapers during the extended cut ending. And I guess it all makes sense when you piece it together, but... I mean... Leviathian Reapers created an AI to help come up with a solution stop AI's from... rebelling against their creators, which then rebels against its creator (oops) and then makes its own version of Reapers to create the cycle and PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTT

I don't know if I'm just fed up and I've become complacent towards this Reaper clusterfuck because it's easier, or if I'm just starting to accept the fiction because I guess it at least makes sense in its own convoluted way? Probably a bit of both.

It's way contrived, that's for sure. You can even question Leviathan about the stupidity of creating an AI to stop AIs. It pretty much just tells you "Yeah, hubris, man".

#50 Posted by csl316 (9515 posts) -

My only issue was if they can control the Reapers, how did they get nearly wiped out by the Reapers?

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