(Spoilers) Why do you people think this is so dumb?

#1 Posted by Baillie (4245 posts) -

Human Reaper

It boggles my mind. I don't understand how you guys can adore the reapers, as a race, but think a human reaper is dumb. Reapers are ALL other aliens + reaper. Harbinger is Reaper + Leviathan. The only thing that is a little weird about it all, is the fact that human reaper looks like a human. That does actually make sense overall, but then why do all the other reapers look like Leviathans? Who knows.

I can understand you thinking it looks dumb, but the idea isn't.

#2 Edited by Vinny_Says (5719 posts) -

I thought reapers took on the likeness of the dominant race at the time of extinction. In mass effect humans are the peak of galactic civilization therefore the reapers decided to take on their form.

I haven't played leviathan by the way. I don't know what a leviathan is.

EDIT: I must have misread something because because now it don't make no sense. However the human reaper made sense it just looked stupid as hell. Like fighting a giant baby.

#3 Posted by Lagaroth (171 posts) -

I've always thought Reapers were the worst part of Mass Effect. Human or otherwise.

#4 Edited by Baillie (4245 posts) -

@Lagaroth said:

I've always thought Reapers were the worst part of Mass Effect. Human or otherwise.

What? WHAT! I thought the conversation with Sovereign was the best moment in the whole series.

@Vinny_Says: I'll tell you what Leviathans are, in case you aren't going to play the DLC.

Leviathans were the most dominant race in the galaxy. They ruled with power and their advancement. When they realised that organic beings would always get to a point of existant where their synthetic creations would turn on them and wipe them out. They created The Intelligence (Catalyst) to prevent this from happening. When the Catalyst found the only solution was the create the cycle every 50,000 years, they first turned on the Leviathans and created the first Reaper - Harbinger - in the image of a Leviathan.
#5 Posted by golguin (3965 posts) -

@Vinny_Says said:

I thought reapers took on the likeness of the dominant race at the time of extinction. In mass effect humans are the peak of galactic civilization therefore the reapers decided to take on their form.

50000 years ago humans were primal and squids were the apex of civilization, so the reapers harvested these squids and took on their form.

I had no problem with this, except for the part where the human reaper looked a bit ridiculous at the end of ME2. If the new reapers looked like I dunno, the Iron Giant from the movie "the iron giant" then that might be cool. Seeing giant humanoid robots destroying entire planets in the next cycle would be a cool moment to watch play out at the end of ME3 if you chose that ending.

I haven't played leviathan by the way. I don't know what a leviathan is.

I don't think you needed to play leviathan to know that the cycle had been going on for a lot longer than 50,000 years. Maybe you need Javik to get that specific scene where you find out about the cycle. I guess the explanation for their form is only mentioned in Leviathan. What you said is wrong so I take it you didn't see the DLC.

#6 Posted by ShaggE (6554 posts) -

"You people"?

#7 Posted by Baillie (4245 posts) -

@ShaggE: Yes, sorry. I meant black people...

#8 Posted by takayamasama (442 posts) -

@Baillie: Ah thank you for that little summary of Leviathan.

So pretty much...the thing they feared happened due to the thing they made to stop the bad thing they feared was going to happen?

#9 Posted by Baillie (4245 posts) -

@takayamasama:

Pretty much. It basically means the only way to stop this from happening is by creating organic-synthetic hybrids. The catalyst creates reapers to do this slowly for each race. No one wants it, neither did the Leviathans. They do technically keep the organics from being wiped out though, and that's what the catalyst was created for.
#10 Posted by ShaggE (6554 posts) -

@Baillie said:

@ShaggE: Yes, sorry. I meant black people...

Oh, so now white folks can't hate human Reaper hybrids? Shit... oldest stereotype in the book...

#11 Posted by Lagaroth (171 posts) -

@Baillie said:

@Lagaroth said:

I've always thought Reapers were the worst part of Mass Effect. Human or otherwise.

What? WHAT! I thought the conversation with Harbinger was the best moment in the whole series.

Leviathans were the most dominant race in the galaxy. They ruled with power and their advancement. When they realised that organic beings would always get to a point of existant where their synthetic creations would turn on them and wipe them out. They created The Intelligence (Catalyst) to prevent this from happening. When the Catalyst found the only solution was the create the cycle every 50,000 years, they first turned on the Leviathans and created the first Reaper - Harbinger - in the image of a Leviathan.

Mass Effect 1 spoilers. (I doubt anyone cares anymore, but whatever.)

I found the Reapers to be silly to begin with, Shepard is convinced that a super evil force is coming to kill every one because he has a dream he can't understand, at first, after interacting with an alien artifact. Then, they attempt to portray the Council as stupid/incompetent because they don't take a dream from random human #1714 as gospel and begin doomsday prep. I always found Shepard's 'faith' for lack of a better term in the Reapers to be silly. It also feels, to me, like the focus on the Reapers squanders one of the strongest parts of the Mass Effect universe, the species and the inter-species politics. Only 5 or so of the various races are explored and expanded upon, while the rest just provide different NPC models to see.

#12 Posted by MikkaQ (10317 posts) -

What's a leviathan? Have I missed something here?

it was dumb because it was a giant terminator as a final boss. Just seemed cheesy to me in a way that wasn't intentional on the developer's part.

#13 Posted by mutha3 (4986 posts) -
@Lagaroth said:

I've always thought Reapers were the worst part of Mass Effect. Human or otherwise.

Yep. Its what inevitably prevented this series from just being videogame Star Trek.
#14 Posted by Phatmac (5726 posts) -

I couldn't take it seriously since it looked like a Terminator. Had it been designed differently than I would fine with it. I don't hate the idea, but I didn't care for it.

#15 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4851 posts) -

@Baillie: I don't think people are outright against the concept of a human reaper, but more so against the form it actually took. It's in the ME2 Collectors' Edition artbook, but they show the evolution in design of the baby reaper, and there's one version where it clearly looks like some cyber-techno fucked up looking foetus. That's both horrifying and disgusting. Imagine having to kill that thing at the end of ME2?

Then again, imagine having to kill that thing at the end of ME2. They probably went with the safer-looking Terminator Reaper because it couldn't cause nearly as much controversy or offend nearly as many people (at least, insofar as you don't have to kill a fucked up foetus monster). In that light, I understand why the the Terminator Reaper got used.

Although I really dig the foetus design...

#16 Posted by Ares42 (2729 posts) -

@Baillie said:

I can understand you thinking it looks dumb, but the idea isn't.

Isn't that the problem though ? Doesn't matter if the idea is good or not, if my first reaction when I see it is "This is just dumb" it's just over. Sure, I can sit down and think about it and make it seem less dumb, but the visual will always be a staunch reminder.

#17 Posted by Vinny_Says (5719 posts) -

@golguin said:

@Vinny_Says said:

I thought reapers took on the likeness of the dominant race at the time of extinction. In mass effect humans are the peak of galactic civilization therefore the reapers decided to take on their form.

50000 years ago humans were primal and squids were the apex of civilization, so the reapers harvested these squids and took on their form.

I had no problem with this, except for the part where the human reaper looked a bit ridiculous at the end of ME2. If the new reapers looked like I dunno, the Iron Giant from the movie "the iron giant" then that might be cool. Seeing giant humanoid robots destroying entire planets in the next cycle would be a cool moment to watch play out at the end of ME3 if you chose that ending.

I haven't played leviathan by the way. I don't know what a leviathan is.

I don't think you needed to play leviathan to know that the cycle had been going on for a lot longer than 50,000 years. Maybe you need Javik to get that specific scene where you find out about the cycle. I guess the explanation for their form is only mentioned in Leviathan. What you said is wrong so I take it you didn't see the DLC.

Okay so I read that wrong. Now I went and read the ME wiki and HOLY FUCK I NEED TO PLAY LEVIATHAN NOW!!! I know the cycle repeats itself every 50 thousand years, Sovereign straight up tells you in ME1. I can't recall where I heard the explanation for their form however....you know what it might have been a dream actually :(

#18 Posted by Korolev (1714 posts) -

It just looked incredibly dumb. The IDEA of a human reaper isn't necessarily stupid, but the appearance of it.... it looked like a giant big Terminator. I mean, it REALLY looks like a terminator - go see intro of "The Terminator" and then look at the human reaper. The similarity is uncanny.

It's also just a stupid idea - Reapers are war machines/space craft - there's no need to make them look like a human, it serves no structural purpose. The human form is not suited to flying. What was it going to use those arms for? Beating on alliance ships? Picking up tanks and swallowing them? The idea that the Reapers couldn't alter the form of the Proto-reaper into something a little bit more sensible doesn't hold up either - The vast majority of reapers look like cuttlefish/squids, and I'm pretty sure most of the races they harvested didn't look like that to begin with. This means that they have some control over the form of the fellow reapers they make.

Look... it just looked dumb as hell.

#19 Edited by pyrodactyl (2183 posts) -

Imagine a fully built human reaper flying in space and doing space battle with humans, turian and other spaceships. Picture it...

Now you know why we think it's so dumb.

#20 Posted by musclerider (590 posts) -

It just made me wonder where the Prothean looking Reaper then?

Seemed a little too much like "Oh god we need to put a final boss in this game, how 'bout this dumb thing?"

#21 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Baillie: I don't think people are outright against the concept of a human reaper, but more so against the form it actually took. It's in the ME2 Collectors' Edition artbook, but they show the evolution in design of the baby reaper, and there's one version where it clearly looks like some cyber-techno fucked up looking foetus. That's both horrifying and disgusting. Imagine having to kill that thing at the end of ME2?

Then again, imagine having to kill that thing at the end of ME2. They probably went with the safer-looking Terminator Reaper because it couldn't cause nearly as much controversy or offend nearly as many people (at least, insofar as you don't have to kill a fucked up foetus monster). In that light, I understand why the the Terminator Reaper got used.

Although I really dig the foetus design...

It certainly wouldn't have been the first game to go in that direction.

#22 Posted by Subjugation (4725 posts) -

@MikkaQ said:

What's a leviathan? Have I missed something here?

it was dumb because it was a giant terminator as a final boss. Just seemed cheesy to me in a way that wasn't intentional on the developer's part.

Yeah, you have missed something rather important. The Leviathan DLC drops some pretty major lore that you can find summed up here. Spoiler-ish, obviously, but a great read and pretty important if you care at all about the story of Mass Effect.

#23 Posted by MikkaQ (10317 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

@MikkaQ said:

What's a leviathan? Have I missed something here?

it was dumb because it was a giant terminator as a final boss. Just seemed cheesy to me in a way that wasn't intentional on the developer's part.

Yeah, you have missed something rather important. The Leviathan DLC drops some pretty major lore that you can find summed up here. Spoiler-ish, obviously, but a great read and pretty important if you care at all about the story of Mass Effect.

Hmmm okay that explains some stuff, for sure. I see why Brad would say it's essential to getting the plot of ME3, it would have made the ending less sudden, at the very least. That still doesn't make the giant terminator any less silly. And kinda like any good scifi as soon as you start to explain away everything, the magic disappears. I think the mystery was more fun than the answers we got.

#24 Posted by haggis (1677 posts) -

@gladspooky said:

Fighting a big human-shaped thing in space is probably the dumbest boss fight you could have thought of, other than shooting at the Illusive Man or whatever while he's sitting in his chair smoking.

I think they realized this late in the development of the idea, but the concept art seems to indicate that the human-reaper they were creating was basically going to be incorporated into a typically Sovereign- or Harbinger-shaped reaper internally. Although whether that's a sort of retcon based on the reaction to the final boss fight in ME2 or not, I don't know. Either way, they didn't take the opportunity to explain this. Which is odd, because it literally would have only taken a moment to say, "Oh, the Reapers incorporate a version of the dominant race into a new version which is sort-of the brain of the new Reaper." And then they would have avoided most of the strangeness.

Which is why this explanation seems somewhat like a retcon to me. Any game has a few ideas that weren't completely fleshed out and don't always make sense if you play them out, but it's not common to have one so prominent. I chalk it up in part to the mid-stream change in the writing team.

#25 Posted by HistoryInRust (6336 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon: I always enjoy shit like that where images we've built positive connotations for have been perverted and warped into a ghoulish cognate nightmare.

Ever see the Matrix Revolutions? Where the emissary of all machines has the face of a human baby? Made up of thousands of swirling blades? Loved it.

#26 Posted by StarvingGamer (8378 posts) -

@Vinny_Says said:

@golguin said:

@Vinny_Says said:

I thought reapers took on the likeness of the dominant race at the time of extinction. In mass effect humans are the peak of galactic civilization therefore the reapers decided to take on their form.

50000 years ago humans were primal and squids were the apex of civilization, so the reapers harvested these squids and took on their form.

I had no problem with this, except for the part where the human reaper looked a bit ridiculous at the end of ME2. If the new reapers looked like I dunno, the Iron Giant from the movie "the iron giant" then that might be cool. Seeing giant humanoid robots destroying entire planets in the next cycle would be a cool moment to watch play out at the end of ME3 if you chose that ending.

I haven't played leviathan by the way. I don't know what a leviathan is.

I don't think you needed to play leviathan to know that the cycle had been going on for a lot longer than 50,000 years. Maybe you need Javik to get that specific scene where you find out about the cycle. I guess the explanation for their form is only mentioned in Leviathan. What you said is wrong so I take it you didn't see the DLC.

Okay so I read that wrong. Now I went and read the ME wiki and HOLY FUCK I NEED TO PLAY LEVIATHAN NOW!!! I know the cycle repeats itself every 50 thousand years, Sovereign straight up tells you in ME1. I can't recall where I heard the explanation for their form however....you know what it might have been a dream actually :(

No, the whole thing about dominant race and taking on forms etc etc is explained in ME2, somewhere near the end of the game. Basically, Reapers in their larval phase look like whatever, and in their adult phase look like squids.

#27 Edited by AngriGhandi (784 posts) -

I never thought the "Human Reaper" was actually what the finished Reaper was going to look like-- for one thing, it was about a thousand times too small, particularly when compared to something like Sovereign, which dwarfed every Alliance ship in Mass Effect 1 by a wide margin.

Hell, one single room of the Collector ship you investigated could have held a Human Reaper convention, if that's how small the final product was going to be.

I assumed that the human-looking form was just the "CPU" or the "inner core" or whatever. The massive ship that would be built around it later would be far bigger, and look just like every other Reaper. And, by implication, every Reaper you see would also have an inner core that looks like whatever race they harvested to make it.

Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't very subtle-- but it does at least make some amount of sense.

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