This video is the best evidence for the Indoctrination Theory yet

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#1 Posted by Cataphract1014 (1313 posts) -

If we can get past the trolls that say they won't watch something because it has something they don't agree with 2 minutes into it, you will see that this video answers and refutes every challenge that has come up against the ending. There are even some things in it that I didn't notice from other lists and videos. It is a long one, but if you watch the whole thing, you will understand it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

#2 Posted by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -
@Cataphract1014: I don't know about everyone else, but I think this theory is fucking awesome and will take anything I can get to expand on it.  Thanks in advance
#3 Posted by Cataphract1014 (1313 posts) -

@Sackmanjones said:

@Cataphract1014: I don't know about everyone else, but I think this theory is fucking awesome and will take anything I can get to expand on it. Thanks in advance

No problem. Just saw it on reddit so I figured I would post it here.

#4 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

You do realize that Bioware has openly and explicitly stated that the real ending is the one in the game.

#5 Edited by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -

^^^ only took you 16 minutes to get here and ruin everyones Mass Effect fun. Even though you can be a troll

 Shepard loves you and will save you from the reapers anyway
#6 Edited by huntad (1940 posts) -

Anyways, seems cool. I'll check it out, thanks!

EDIT: @Sackmanjones: Haha, he'll only ruin it if you let him!

#7 Edited by Cataphract1014 (1313 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish said:

You do realize that Bioware has openly and explicitly stated that the real ending is the one in the game.

Just who I thought would show up , not watch the video, and still have something to say!

And what does that have to do with anything? Real as in what?

I'm just going to ignore you because you don't like the game and don't want anyone else to like it either. It's like you have one of those red doomsday phones that rings whenever someone posts something on this forum.

#8 Posted by roughneck117 (191 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish: Havent you gotten tired of doing this? Youve been in every ME3 thread, and have been negative everytime. Clearly you dont like the game, clearly you think the game stinks, or maybe even worse, probably worse. Move on dude, forget ME3 ever existed, return the game, wipe it from your mind and move the fuck on. Let people discuss what they want to discuss, let them be.

#9 Posted by jking47 (1211 posts) -

In my opinion, if you people keep making threads about the mass effect ending has the right to keep talking shit about the mass effect ending.

#10 Posted by Cataphract1014 (1313 posts) -

@jking47: He can do whatever he wants, I'm just not going to reply to him.

#11 Posted by Dany (7887 posts) -

Yeah, indoctrination ending makes sense.

#12 Posted by owl_of_minerva (1455 posts) -

First of all, it doesn't matter what Bioware says about the ending at this point. Until they add more material or explain their current endings (ie. make their fans pay for a retcon or a real ending, the dlc they're so quick to mention), they're an ambiguous, incoherent shambles, and the indoctrination interpretation as it should really be known is one of the best available with a lot of supporting evidence. It can certainly be contested, but the argument against it doesn't have a very good opposing interpretation - what is shown to happen is what literally happens, deeeeeerp, ie. the RGB interpretation with those three, on the face of it, incredibly shitty and nonsensical endings. I'm going to exercise the principle of charity and assume that the writers of Bioware aren't that bad. I don't have much fondness for Bioware but I'm going to wait and see on this point - and I'm willing to bet, either see the indoc. interpretation receive some validation, or, the three endings explained away as not actually having happened.

#13 Posted by HatKing (5952 posts) -

I can accept this as an ending if Bioware does. I don't want them to cave and change that shit because the pussy ass gamers need a fucking happy ending all the time. I am a huge Mass Effect fan, but I would love the series to have a 'bad' ending. It is exactly what this industry needs.

#14 Posted by SpartyOn (500 posts) -

If it was all a Reaper-induced hallucination then how does that accomplish anything. Why would the Reaper's put Shepard through that if he was really dying on Earth and not on the citadel? Also, that would mean that Shepard was dead and didn't do jack shit to the Reapers or organic life, and all the endings are nonsense.

#15 Posted by Turambar (6784 posts) -
@Cataphract1014 said:

If we can get past the trolls that say they won't watch something because it has something they don't agree with 2 minutes into it, you will see that this video answers and refutes every challenge that has come up against the ending. There are even some things in it that I didn't notice from other lists and videos. It is a long one, but if you watch the whole thing, you will understand it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

I admire this theory because it shows the strength of the lore in the franchise.  But no, I do not believe it to be anything other than fan fiction, and that video has not presented any theories that I have not already seen.  When the author of a work has declared that his work is to be taken at face value (just as Bioware has done in The Final Hours from what I hear), that is pretty much final.  Anomalies use as arguments are more the result of poor writing than byzantine pre-planning.  As a fan work, I admire it, but it is not intentional in any sense of the word.
#16 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -
@Cataphract1014: @roughneck117: You both realize you've basically joined a cult at this point.
#17 Posted by Ketchupp (673 posts) -

This is probably the best ending that could end the series. I hope they don't fuck it up with DLC.

#18 Posted by Cataphract1014 (1313 posts) -

@SpartyOn said:

If it was all a Reaper-induced hallucination then how does that accomplish anything. Why would the Reaper's put Shepard through that if he was really dying on Earth and not on the citadel? Also, that would mean that Shepard was dead and didn't do jack shit to the Reapers or organic life, and all the endings are nonsense.

The only two endings where Shepard "dies" is the ones where he caves to indoctrination. Destroy shows him waking up because he won against the final attempt.

#19 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

So if this is true. Are they setting up for DLC that is the real truth? If this is true. Then maybe I will pick up this game. 

#20 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@owl_of_minerva said:

First of all, it doesn't matter what Bioware says about the ending at this point. Until they add more material or explain their current endings (ie. make their fans pay for a retcon or a real ending, the dlc they're so quick to mention), they're an ambiguous, incoherent shambles, and the indoctrination interpretation as it should really be known is one of the best available with a lot of supporting evidence.

Agreed. The endings as are, are nonsensical and don't make much sense, which makes it difficult to believe the endings at face value. On the flipside, there isn't much foolproof evidence for it to be indoctrination, but there isn't enough evidence for any other theory. I'm just assuming that it's poor planning at this point in time.

#21 Posted by mordukai (7150 posts) -

Why are so many people still grasping at straws? Just do what I did and admit to yourself that Bioware just dropped the ball with ME3's ending and you'll much better.

#22 Posted by SpartyOn (500 posts) -

@Cataphract1014 said:

@SpartyOn said:

If it was all a Reaper-induced hallucination then how does that accomplish anything. Why would the Reaper's put Shepard through that if he was really dying on Earth and not on the citadel? Also, that would mean that Shepard was dead and didn't do jack shit to the Reapers or organic life, and all the endings are nonsense.

The only two endings where Shepard "dies" is the ones where he caves to indoctrination. Destroy shows him waking up because he won against the final attempt.

Doesn't he wake up back on Earth though? Or am I mistaken...

#23 Posted by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

I've never cared for this theory but after watching that...

If that's true then BioWare is clever as fuck.

But then its still fucking stupid because BioWare never revealed this at all in the game or told us what really happened. I mean how cool would it have been if this had been the game's big twist?! This don't get you off the hook BioWare! You still fucked up!

#24 Edited by Marz (5653 posts) -

Just giving too much credit to Bioware that this theory is what they intended all along. They obviously wanted to end the Shepard trilogy with this game and they've been saying that for years. Buckling over to fan pressure if they decide to add DLC with this premise in mind just goes to show you how weak they are as a development studio nowadays.

#25 Posted by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

@Marz said:

Just giving too much credit to Bioware that this theory is what they intended all along. They obviously wanted to end the Shepard trilogy with this game and they've been saying that for years. Buckling over to fan pressure if they decide to add DLC with this premise in mind just goes to show you how weak they are as a development studio.

True. Problem is that people have come up with so many different new endings that if BioWare does decide to change it chances are they will pick something at least somewhat similar to a fan ending.

#26 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4678 posts) -

@JeanLuc said:

I've never cared for this theory but after watching that...

If that's true then BioWare is clever as fuck.

But then its still fucking stupid because BioWare never revealed this at all in the game or told us what really happened. I mean how cool would it have been if this had been the game's big twist?! This don't get you off the hook BioWare! You still fucked up!

That is what makes me not believe this was intended by Bioware. I find it doubtful that they would release the game with a ending so vague, surely they would have considered backlash. Being open to interpetation is one thing. To give no evidence to show to true ending is another. However I hope it is just Bioware being very clever, as if they indoctrinated us. Even if is the case, we know even less about what actually happened to the reapers and galaxy.

#27 Posted by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

@ImmortalSaiyan: Yeah I agree I don't think BioWare planned this Indoctrination thing. But how cool would it have been if this was the ending and then actually explained it in the story?! Oh well, to late now.

#28 Posted by StarvingGamer (8245 posts) -

That was well put together but it relies on more fuzzy logic than people accuse the actual ending of containing. These theories are a fun diversion but they lack any sort of credibility.

#29 Posted by RE_Player1 (7560 posts) -

@JeanLuc said:

I've never cared for this theory but after watching that...

If that's true then BioWare is clever as fuck.

But then its still fucking stupid because BioWare never revealed this at all in the game or told us what really happened. I mean how cool would it have been if this had been the game's big twist?! This don't get you off the hook BioWare! You still fucked up!

Exactly. Guess what if the game played out the way it did when choosing the control or synthesis endings, failure, and when the destroy ending happened you would see a reality, true ending, than Bioware would be master story tellers altering players on perception of the world through characters, settings, music, game play mechanics etc. Instead they muddled it up and decided to put out an incomplete product and patch or, more likely, charge for an epilogue.

#30 Posted by RE_Player1 (7560 posts) -

Also I doubt they would get this mind fucky with them telling new players to start at 3 and have story and combat only options.

#31 Edited by penINC (136 posts) -

It's fine if you want to speculate and the indoctrination theory is in the realm of possibility, but it annoys me how many people seem to think it's been proved by these points. Nothing expressed in that video is more than circumstantial. If you want to believe, you can make it line up, but it in no way proves anything.

#32 Posted by ShiftyMagician (2129 posts) -

Whilst still treating it as only a theory, I personally really enjoy it and find it a great interpretation of the ending. I still think it's just a massive cock-up by Bioware but if I'm going to lie myself about it, this is a hell of a good one.

I will eat my own words though if Bioware at some point in time either confirms this or simply makes it true via DLC (really hoping for the former and not latter as it would kill their integrity quite a bit with the latter).

#33 Posted by huntad (1940 posts) -

I just got around to it and finished watching the video. I'm impressed and think that, at the very least, this is an amazing piece of fan fiction. If it does turn out to be true, however Bioware can justify that, then that's cool too. Still, the people involved with this project have done a great job.

#34 Edited by xyzygy (9994 posts) -

The thing is, Bioware has stated this is not the ending so you're basically grasping onto contrived fan-fic in the hopes of justifying the abysmal ending.

Also, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

#35 Posted by golguin (3929 posts) -

I saw the video and I thought it interesting. However, it ignores the fact that the Synthesis ending (a possibility that only became available with the addition of the Crucible) solves the cycle problem; a problem that will continue to occur even if the Reapers were destroyed. We know through the actual events in the game (thanks to Javik) that Reapers only eliminate races with the potential to create synthetics and subjugate younger races. Their purpose is to maintain their idea of "order". The events with the Geth, Quarians, EDI, and Joker prove that synthetics and organics can coexist. Choosing the other two options invalidates that whole story arc. Synthesis eliminates the organic vs. synthetic struggle that has always plagued the galaxy.

I don't see why people feel that ending makes no sense. You could not like the fact that the Reapers weren't the ultimate evil they were made out to be, but you can't simply ignore it and make up an ending.

#36 Posted by Enigma777 (6073 posts) -

You guys are honestly telling me that Bioware would troll it's entire fucking audience and have an ending that most people won't be able to deduct for themselves and hide it, the only proof being circumstantial evidence at best?

Why? Why would they do such a thing? What do they gain from hiding it?

Seriously, stop being stupid. You may not like the ending, but it is what it is. Fantasizing about what could have been won't change things...

#37 Posted by Subjugation (4720 posts) -

That video is great. It's unfortunate that a lot of people probably won't watch it out of stubbornness. Until they refute the arguments made in the video, I'll continue to think that it makes a whole lot of sense. Also, that is just really well put together overall.

#38 Posted by SmasheControllers (2550 posts) -

Bioware's too smart, of course there's more to come.

#39 Posted by supermike6 (3564 posts) -

I haven't even played the game and don't plan on it, but I love reading about this theory because it's so fucking crazy. It doesn't really matter what Bioware says is true or what they really mean anymore; this thing has gained a life of it's own and I can't wait to see where the hell this all ends up. Good fun.

#40 Posted by Swoxx (3000 posts) -

Fuck yeah, I'm always down for more Indoctrination theories. Love dat stuff. I really hope it pans out, even though I know it's extremely unlikely.

#BELIEVE

#41 Edited by Zithe (1045 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

That video is great. It's unfortunate that a lot of people probably won't watch it out of stubbornness. Until they refute the arguments made in the video, I'll continue to think that it makes a whole lot of sense. Also, that is just really well put together overall.

If you want to believe it, you are free to do so, but this video really does not bring anything new to the table as far as this debate is concerned.

A couple of questions I still have for indoctrinators:

1) Why does Shepard see the Normandy crash landing scene play out regardless of his choice? In fact, why would the Reapers show him this at all?

2) If your answer to the above question is that the Normandy scene wasn't part of the dream and it actually happened, then why does EDI actually not show up in the destroy ending and why does Joker have synthetic eyes in the synthesis ending?

#42 Posted by Tylea002 (2295 posts) -

@Zithe: Those aren't too big holes, they're more questions that'd be answered IF the theory was true in DLC. I'll play along and explain those issues best I can, but there's no right answer unless this becomes true in DLC, and frankly, there's no way it will. But I'd love it if it did!

1) Indoctrination is a choice; thus the free will, but the deck is stacked in the reaper's favour, because of the hallucinations and all that. It is still in Shepard's mind, but the Reapers are planting things in his mind. The endings of the Normandy are scenes of his hope that he saves the crew and hopefully the galaxy - Shepard believes it's working and wants the best, and is unaware.

2) Because that's the information the catalyst gave him - told him synthetics would die, and that new paradigm of technology would be achieved in the other - accepting the catalyst at face value and not questioning them.

These would, presumably, be answered down the line if true. But it's not true, unfortunately. I really can't see it happening, even though it'd be the easiest way out of this mess.

#43 Posted by Grixxel (766 posts) -

Real or not, I'm behind this. Only because it makes the trilogy that much more interesting to me, even if it's all fans trying really hard to come with terms with the ending. It's awesome!

#44 Posted by FilipHolm (667 posts) -

(SPOILERS!) You know this sounds like something that could be true. Sad part is, I really feel like I need to replay the ending, I was tricked into chossing an option I didn't really want to. My first rection when faced with the final choise was, like the video says, "He's probably indoctrinated, I should pick the red one". What happaned then was a misunderstanding by me, I got the impression that if I choose "Control", I would save the Mass Relays and preserv civilization so to speak, I was obviously wrong since the Mass Relays where destroyed anyway... When was my last save? Goddamn it...

#45 Posted by Jackel2072 (2261 posts) -

that was a great video thanks for posting. I buy his theory 

#46 Posted by Jackel2072 (2261 posts) -
@FilipHolm said:

(SPOILERS!) You know this sounds like something that could be true. Sad part is, I really feel like I need to replay the ending, I was tricked into chossing an option I didn't really want to. My first rection when faced with the final choise was, like the video says, "He's probably indoctrinated, I should pick the red one". What happaned then was a misunderstanding by me, I got the impression that if I choose "Control", I would save the Mass Relays and preserv civilization so to speak, I was obviously wrong since the Mass Relays where destroyed anyway... When was my last save? Goddamn it...

yeah same here. however i just played the ending again and got the same after the credits cut scene. the old man and child in the snow. so im confused. i skipped the credits and thats what played. 
#47 Posted by FilipHolm (667 posts) -

@Jackel2072: I also re-played the ending and picked the "Destroy" option. And there was absolutely no diffrence aside from the color of the explosions. I thought I'd at least get the "Shepard breathing" cut scene but nope... I don't understand... I find the indoctrination theory very interesting and something that could be true. It certanly is something I would do if I wrote the game, so the ending itself doesn't bother me... I like open endings, it's the plot holes I can't stand...

#48 Posted by Zithe (1045 posts) -

@Tylea002: My question was asking why Shepard would still see that scene even when he chooses destroy to break the indoctrination. If he breaks out of the indoctrination and is going to wake up soon and realize that none of it happened, why would the Reapers show him the Normandy scene? There is no point.

I think I'm done arguing over this though. Seems like a waste of time since we will find out when the DLC is shown anyway.

#49 Posted by Jackel2072 (2261 posts) -
@FilipHolm: after doing a little digging. it seems like there are a lot of factors to getting that ending. for example my galactic readiness was only at 74% because by the time i got back to playing the game a few days later it had fallen (i was at 86% with multiplayer) and you need at least 80% and few other factors that people are not quite sure on. also i think you need to be either 100% Paragon or Renegade. because at the end i couldn't convince the illusive man to shoot him self the option was grayed out for me.
#50 Edited by Zithe (1045 posts) -

@Jackel2072 said:

@FilipHolm: after doing a little digging. it seems like there are a lot of factors to getting that ending. for example my galactic readiness was only at 74% because by the time i got back to playing the game a few days later it had fallen (i was at 86% with multiplayer) and you need at least 80% and few other factors that people are not quite sure on. also i think you need to be either 100% Paragon or Renegade. because at the end i couldn't convince the illusive man to shoot him self the option was grayed out for me.

My understanding is that if you have 5000 effective military strength, you get it no matter what. This will determine what your war readiness percentage needs to be. You just have to have enough to get that bottom number to 5000. I've also heard it's possible to get it with 4000-4500 but that depends on the choices you've made. But the 5000 guarantees it.

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