Mc Shea's follow up article

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#1 Edited by Spitznock (491 posts) -

To those unfamiliar with the story, back during E3, Gamespot editor Tom Mc Shea pushed a story calling out at the grossly inaccurate portrayal of war in military shooters (found here http://tinyurl.com/8uazd3r), and was shortly after coaxed into doing an interview with MoH: Warfighter's executive producer Greg Goodrich in which Goodrich flagrantly bullied Mc Shea throughout; stating that (and I'm paraphrasing so forgive me) "realism and authenticity are not the same thing".

Goodrich suggested numerous times throughout the interview (found here http://tinyurl.com/9mtro33) that Tom sit down and play MoH:Warfighter for himself, and ignore his problems with the genre until he plays through the game to see how well Danger Close would show respect to the military men of the world through the games campaign.

The people of the internet love them some military shooters however, and as the internet tends to do, unloaded as many vile and uncalled for insults they could muster at McShea, claiming that his views were dumbfounded and that his original article was nothing more than a ploy for attention.

Well. MoH:Warfighter is out, and McShea had a few words to say about the games representation of real world conflicts and its disrespect for human life. It can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/8aoy3n8

What do you folks think? Did Warfighter make good on its promise?

-edited for attempts at better grammar-

#2 Posted by PeasantAbuse (5138 posts) -

Lol at Goodrich "bullying" Tom Mc Shea.

#3 Posted by Spitznock (491 posts) -

@PeasantAbuse: Thank you for the well thought-out response.

#4 Posted by Phatmac (5723 posts) -

What a massive egomaniac. Why is he suddenly writing an article for this particular game considering military shooters have been doing this for ages now? To come back and write this article just comes off as a vindictive I told you so kind of move.

#5 Posted by Laurentech (127 posts) -

McShea has a lot to say but not much worth saying.

#6 Posted by FourWude (2261 posts) -

Brilliant by McShea. He's just pointing the blatantly obvious at this stage though.

#7 Posted by flindip (533 posts) -

@Phatmac: "You said it chewie"

Seems to me its a gang pile on the low hanging fruit. Does he have the same outrage on the new black ops commercial?

Guy is as pretentious as they come..

#8 Posted by Marz (5646 posts) -

he really didn't need to write a follow up, he said his piece back when he said it. Now he's just doing it to gloat how MOH Warfighter didn't prove him wrong.

#9 Edited by _Zombie_ (1462 posts) -

I honestly think this is a massive waste of time. Military shooters sell extremely well, and they're not going to change because of something like this. It's blatantly obvious how massively unrealistic they are, and how badly they misrepresent actual warfare. I'm not seeing the point in writing a second piece re-stating what he already said awhile ago, presumably just for the sake of touting the fact that he's right.

@Phatmac: Given the context, I'm getting the same feeling.

#10 Edited by Tennmuerti (8012 posts) -

@Spitznock said:

To those unfamiliar with the story, back during E3, Gamespot editor Tom Mc Shea pushed a story calling out at the grossly inaccurate portrayal of war in military shooters (found here http://tinyurl.com/8uazd3r), and was shortly after coaxed into doing an interview

Oh noes a game journalist was coaxed into doing an interview! On a topic he wrote on, about a game he criticized. The shameless horror!

executive producer Greg Goodrich in which Goodrich flagrantly bullied Mc Shea throughout; stating that (and I'm paraphrasing so forgive me) "realism and authenticity are not the same thing".

You have no idea what bullying is do you? Two adults talking heatedly about a topic they care about is not it.

This sure reads like an unbiased and non one sided post. :/

What do you folks think? Did Warfighter make good on its promise?

Here's a clue the quality or authenticity of MoH had little to do with why most people were pissed at McShea, at least on this website (considering most knew next to nothing about the game at that point), it was his same arguments repeated ad nauseum while he ignored what the other person said entirely. It was not an interview it was an unprofessional farce to watch (regardless of who was right or wrong).

For the record I don't think the new MoH is a very good game, and will personally never play it.

#11 Edited by Snail (8584 posts) -

@PeasantAbuse said:

Lol at Goodrich "bullying" Tom Mc Shea.

I prefer Ryan's "bullying" of McShea. More spirited.

I wouldn't feel bad for him if the guy was some charismatic asshole, but he's so shy and awkward I'm contempt with reacting to his opinions with frustration, and being just dumbfounded and slightly enraged by the fact that he actually got the internet soapbox he has.

Not to be a hater or beat a dead horse, but does anyone remember his Skyward Sword review? And that first episode of Quoted for Truth that had Ryan in it? Whenever I am reading a review on Gamespot and start thinking "Wait, wha- who-- Who though this about this game? Who-- who wrote this?" and I scroll up, many, many a time I find the name Tom McShea there.

#12 Posted by Mcfart (1562 posts) -

Mcshea's always been an idiot.

However,he's obviously right that war shooters aren't the same as real war. Even Spec Ops wasn't authentic, since the Army is a bureaucratic structure. Soldiers don't have to decide for themselves; their superiors who might not even be on the battlefield make those choices for them.

Warfighter has authentic guns, in terms of look and name, but I doubt that even their recoil is accurate to the real gun.

TLDR: Both Mcshea and Warfighter suck.

#13 Posted by Rainbowkisses (472 posts) -

McShea's arguments have not changed and as a result my thoughts on his arguments have not changed either. I think at this point we should all just ignore his commentary on military shooters.

#14 Posted by FourWude (2261 posts) -

You want to know the biggest irony with all the propaganda is that despite all the trillion dollar efforts its been a monumental failure. Propaganda at its core is a lie, a complex one, but a lie nonetheless. The fact that the biggest propaganda apparatus mankind has ever known has failed should show to mankind the power of truth. That one sentence of truth can take down a thousand lies. Maybe in that there is some solace to be had. Maybe there's some hope for humanity after all. Because right now as a people, mankind is failing.

#15 Posted by Peanut (953 posts) -

What he said wasn't exactly radical and he wasn't the first to say it, so I don't get why he's trying to be so loud about it. Where's his write-up about every CoD game? This just seems like a smug fuck kicking a game while it's down, out of spite.

#16 Posted by PillClinton (3290 posts) -
What do you folks think? Did Warfighter make good on its promise?

No, of course not, and I never thought it would.

And while McShea specifically targeting MoH:WF may seem uncalled for at first glance, it's really not, as no other modern military themed FPS has (to my knowledge) made such lofty claims about authenticity and respect for the realities of soldiers and war. Is McShea glorifying his observations, wrapping them in a bold anti-war protest facade? Yes, but fucking someone's gotta do it, and at least he has the balls to willingly subject himself to all the vitriol the children of the internet excitedly spew at every chance they get. And he doesn't deserve scorn for it.

#17 Posted by Spitznock (491 posts) -

And this will be the last time I attempt to start a conversation on the GiantBomb forums. Enjoy the rest of your night, everyone.

#18 Posted by laserbolts (5314 posts) -

McShea is an idiot and should drop it already. He is just looking for more attention. I really don't understand how he is in the position he is in. Guy is a joke.

#19 Posted by allworkandlowpay (874 posts) -

I don't like the guy, but he has a point.

#20 Posted by Kerned (1169 posts) -

McShae is just speaking the truth, like it or not. It's good for someone to be raising these sorts of issues.

#21 Edited by themangalist (1727 posts) -

I thought EpicSteve's blog was pretty profound in this discussion. BUT I do stand on McShea's side here. He's attacking not authenticity, but rather the bigger marketing picture that EA paints for "respecting U.S. soldiers", which authenticity is merely a part of. I don't think MoH is that game. And to be honest, I always hated the Americanism that goes on in these AAA modern war games.

Then again, I don't think the new MoH deserves this much attention at all. Terrorism in the 21st Century? REALLY?! AGAIN?! I was baffled when Battlefield 3 had yet another terrorist plot. I'm fucking sick of the stereotypical middle-east/russian dude. EA made a stupid decision to blow money on this.

Anyways, I like McShea, he was on back when I still listened to the "new" Hotspot (without Gerstmann and the bunch). I kinda grew fond of him. I admit he's an awkward person on camera, but that's understandable. He always has out-there opinions of things, and I don't mind that either. I really just wished people will cut him some slack. He has always been holding an anti-war/anti-war game view, I don't find it surprising that he's this vocal about a game that glorifies U.S. soldiers in war.

#22 Posted by buft (3305 posts) -

tom mc shea is a great man

#23 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

@PillClinton said:

What do you folks think? Did Warfighter make good on its promise?

No, of course not, and I never thought it would.

And while McShea specifically targeting MoH:WF may seem uncalled for at first glance, it's really not, as no other modern military themed FPS has (to my knowledge) made such lofty claims about authenticity and respect for the realities of soldiers and war. Is McShea glorifying his observations, wrapping them in a bold anti-war protest facade? Yes, but fucking someone's gotta do it, and at least he has the balls to willingly subject himself to all the vitriol the children of the internet excitedly spew at every chance they get. And he doesn't deserve scorn for it.

Exactly. He is writing this because MOH was held up to be authentic and the developer in their interview told Mcshea to play it to judge for himself. So play he did. Which he has come to the same conclusion, which yes made this article a little redundant, but that is kinda the point of it.

I quite like Mcshea, he may not have the most charisma but he is saying something that must be said even If I don't have those issue with the genre. Mostly because I just ignore military shooters outright.

#24 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

Reading the article, it sounds like he is picking on problems all games have. Bad AI, super powered player characters, under powered enemy's, unrealistic stories. Yet I bet he doesn't have a problem with Super Mario.

#25 Posted by RE_Player1 (7551 posts) -

@Laurentech said:

McShea has a lot to say but not much worth saying.

#26 Posted by Peanut (953 posts) -

Wait, they claimed this game would be authentic and respectful? For real?

#27 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

Reading the article, it sounds like he is picking on problems all games have. Bad AI, super powered player characters, under powered enemy's, unrealistic stories. Yet I bet he doesn't have a problem with Super Mario.

Mario is not trying to be realistic in any way. The issue Mcshea has with MOH is how these mechanics frame the rest of the experience. His point there is context. Like why could the AI not have been smart to employ actual tactics. In doom that is no issue because the game makes no connection to reality while MOH makes claims of authenticity and the way the enemys is designed protrays them as stupid and lesser than the amercia troops. To dumb to employ tactics. I think this type of anaylisis is important to get delvopers to think of there game as a whole. So we lose the dissonance of story and gameplay often complained about in games such as uncharted.

#28 Posted by allworkandlowpay (874 posts) -

@Peanut said:

Wait, they claimed this game would be authentic and respectful? For real?

Essentially, yes.

I forget what article, but they essentially used that exact phrasing. The entire marketing for it prior to release was very oriented to "these are based on real events, these are like the real people, this is the reality" etc.

#29 Posted by Giantstalker (1541 posts) -

I'm a veteran and I don't get offended, or even mind. Where does that put you people?

#30 Posted by wjb (1643 posts) -

@Spitznock said:

And this will be the last time I attempt to start a conversation on the GiantBomb forums. Enjoy the rest of your night, everyone.

What exactly did you want? People have voiced their opinions and some disagree. McShea isn't the most likeable person.

At least contribute to the topic you started.

#31 Posted by PillClinton (3290 posts) -

@Giantstalker said:

I'm a veteran and I don't get offended, or even mind. Where does that put you people?

In the exact same place I started. I respect your service, but your opinion doesn't invalidate my opposing opinion.

#32 Posted by Apathylad (3066 posts) -

Goodrich came across as patient and respectful in the interview. There are far better examples out there of a journalist being bullied into submission. I mean, it's not like he threatened to take legal action when McShea put up the original article. >.>

#33 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

@Giantstalker said:

I'm a veteran and I don't get offended, or even mind. Where does that put you people?

As people who want a more diverse perspective in game narratives. Not to belittle you but just because you have military experience does not mean your opinion is right. For the record i'm not up in arms about this and think games like COD have their place but Mcshea has a point that I support.

#34 Edited by themangalist (1727 posts) -

@Giantstalker said:

I'm a veteran and I don't get offended, or even mind. Where does that put you people?

The point isn't about you veterans being offended, or anyone, but about mass media twisting public perception of war, a greater theme of the West and the "Other". I'm not speaking from a moral highground, I'm merely stating McShea's stance on war games in general.

@Phatmac said:

What a massive egomaniac. Why is he suddenly writing an article for this particular game considering military shooters have been doing this for ages now? To come back and write this article just comes off as a vindictive I told you so kind of move.

Tom McShea doesn't qualify as a moral entrepreneur, his views are just his thoughts. I don't think he's an attention whore either, he's been holding this view for the longest time. It doesn't surprise me he is so uptight about a game marketed as the most authentic shooter that respects soldiers.

#35 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@Phatmac said:

What a massive egomaniac. Why is he suddenly writing an article for this particular game considering military shooters have been doing this for ages now? To come back and write this article just comes off as a vindictive I told you so kind of move.

Not true actually, all events in the COD since modern warfare have been fiction. Medal of Honor online was literally Taliban vs USMC and they used real wars and events. Medal of Honor : War Fighter is more like the COD games with crazy action set pieces and in no way is "Authentic" and a "Tribute" to the fallen soldiers of USMC. I have agreed with McShea on this point even though I usually don't agree with anything he says. It's just bad taste to make a videogame out of current wars and enemys when in real war you dont get checkpoints and respawns.

#36 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

Reading the article, it sounds like he is picking on problems all games have. Bad AI, super powered player characters, under powered enemy's, unrealistic stories. Yet I bet he doesn't have a problem with Super Mario.

Thats not the point Mario wasn't marketed as an authentic tribute to the plumbers that died doing their job...

#37 Edited by jakob187 (21645 posts) -

As someone who watches people play shooters on a regular basis - kids, teenagers, and adults alike, I can tell Tom McShea this: they don't give a flying fuck if the enemy has feelings or anything. If you were to have a sequence where someone was the enemy and you gunned them down, then walked right into the next house and found their wife and kids in there, scared shitless and asking why you are doing these terrible things, the exact response the players I've seen would give is "bitch, shut the fuck up and die", followed by unloading a hail of bullets on them and not giving a fuck about any type of consequences.

I saw it happen multiple times with "No Russian". I have seen kids between the ages of 8-11 come in here multiple times and SPECIFICALLY LOAD THAT MISSION ON MODERN WARFARE 2...JUST to murder a ton of innocent civilians. These are kids that come up to our counter and ask me "do I get to kill people in this game" when they are making their choices on what game to play. All they care about is killing. That's it.

It drives me insane...but it's also the nature of the business we are in, right? If you look at the time that shooters became popular on consoles in comparison to the amount of time that our nation has been overseas in military occupations and invasions, there's a direct correlation between the two. This is what kids know. They see it on TV, in video games, hear it in their music, see it in movies, find it in their art...everywhere you go, there's a gun pointing at someone and a trigger being pulled.

Welcome to the world, Tom McShea. It's a frightening little place...and there's not a lot of sympathy to go around when sympathy is not something that is taught to our children or teenagers.

I like the article, but it's words that will fall on deaf ears in a worldwide community of game-buyers.

*EDIT* P.S. - I know kids that have played Spec Ops: The Line from start to finish and didn't think any of the terrible shit they did was affecting in the least bit. the majority of them laughed about the shit they did and bragged about it like it was something to be proud of.

#38 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@jakob187: You let kids come into your internet cafe and play No Russian? What the fuck is wrong with you!

#39 Posted by pyrodactyl (1892 posts) -

@laserbolts: @Mcfart: @flindip: @Phatmac:

For a moment there I thought the giantbomb community was special and that this site was the place for informed and intelligent debat.

Then I remembered this is still the fucking internet and there is no place above personal insults on the internet.

Seriously, you guys on the first page, try to make a point instead of shiting on some dude's face because you dont like him very much.

Mc Shea is clearly not mean spirited and doesn't deserve that kind of treatment from us.

#40 Edited by jakob187 (21645 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@jakob187: You let kids come into your internet cafe and play No Russian? What the fuck is wrong with you!

This IS America, right? If a parent comes in and has no problem with their kid playing it, I'm not going to be the guy that sits there and says "well, too bad". We do not carry games like Grand Theft Auto or Saints Row because that goes in a direction we do not care to deal with. However, we do carry shooters. Call of Duty is too big of an entity to deny. With Modern Warfare 2 specifically, it was a toss-up on what to do. In the end, we said that it is the decision of the person raising the child to say whether it was okay or not for them to play something like "No Russian". You'd actually be surprised how many parents have literally no problem with their 8-year-old kid playing games like Gears of War (where you saw people in half with a chainsaw attached to your weapon) or Left 4 Dead (where you are mowing down zombies that are being dismembered non-stop). Hell, most of those same kids get pissed that we REFUSE to carry Saints Row or Grand Theft Auto...and then the parents ask us WHY WE DON'T CARRY THEM!

Personally, I was a kid that was raised with knowing the difference between reality and fantasy. I was also raised by two people were hippies during Vietnam...and my father served in Vietnam as well. They taught me compassion for mankind, the difference between right and wrong. They let me watch Nightmare on Elm Street when I was 7, listen to NWA when they came out, etc etc... They didn't restrict me. I'm a productive working member of society that has literally never had problems with the law (other than a couple of traffic tickets). I treat people with respect when they deserve it. I say "yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am" (that's probably the Southern manners part of me, though). I played Splatterhouse and Mortal Kombat and shit when I was a kid. I didn't turn out terrible.

I'm not going to say that this stuff doesn't weigh on me at times - the idea that I work in a place that lets kids virtually murder things while being raised by parents that probably teach them nothing about the difference between fantasy and reality. At the same time, Call of Duty is virtual paintball. How am I supposed to say no to that but then say it's cool for them to literally play paintball?

It's a double-edged blade, and one that we carefully considered for the better part of four years before we finally decided to even carry any form of M-rated games in the first place that weren't named "Halo". Call of Duty 4 was a turning point for our business, and it's been a weird adventure since then.

#41 Posted by DukesT3 (1893 posts) -

Just join the military if you want realism/authenticity.

#42 Posted by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior: Cause he isn't making a coherent or cogent point. All he is doing is thumping his chest about having the supposed moral high ground by pointing out the fleaws of a bad game. His interview with the producer was insulting and disrespectful and his attitude is deplorable. He has shown time and time again that he doesn't know shit from shit and is talking out of his ass and in circles. He's the lowest form of scum "journalist" on par with tabloid sensationalists who hide behind moral outrage to boost their own sense of importance. He is the sort of person actively HURTING any attempt at real journalism with the way he acts and writes. The very core of what he's trying to get at could actually be argued and researched properly by somebody smart and talented, unfortunately he has the grace, wit and skills of a lobotomized ape.

Happy now?

#43 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@jakob187: But you can turn off the option for that level in the options no? Even I didn't really enjoy playing that level, seems like they only put that level in for the guarenteed news stories or "free advertising" it was going to get them. Like when Eminem got banned from heaps of stores when I was a kid as soon as I heard that all I wanted was to get my hands on that album.

#44 Edited by YOU_DIED (702 posts) -

@themangalist said:

I thought EpicSteve's blog was pretty profound in this discussion. BUT I do stand on McShea's side here. He's attacking not authenticity, but rather the bigger marketing picture that EA paints for "respecting U.S. soldiers", which authenticity is merely a part of. I don't think MoH is that game. And to be honest, I always hated the Americanism that goes on in these AAA modern war games.

Then again, I don't think the new MoH deserves this much attention at all. Terrorism in the 21st Century? REALLY?! AGAIN?! I was baffled when Battlefield 3 had yet another terrorist plot. I'm fucking sick of the stereotypical middle-east/russian dude. EA made a stupid decision to blow money on this.

Anyways, I like McShea, he was on back when I still listened to the "new" Hotspot (without Gerstmann and the bunch). I kinda grew fond of him. I admit he's an awkward person on camera, but that's understandable. He always has out-there opinions of things, and I don't mind that either. I really just wished people will cut him some slack. He has always been holding an anti-war/anti-war game view, I don't find it surprising that he's this vocal about a game that glorifies U.S. soldiers in war.

Well said, I don't really care if a game is realistic or not (if the game is fun, then why should it matter?) UNLESS it is claiming otherwise. The stereotypical, if not cartoonish, middle eastern/eurasian villains that these types of games always contain has (in some ways) helped fuel the Islamophobia we are currently experiencing in the US. Beyond that, games like these new MoH installments are uninspired, throwaway roller coaster rides.

#45 Posted by Milkman (16541 posts) -

This thread probably would have gone a little bit if the original post wasn't so blatantly bias.

#46 Posted by StarvingGamer (8032 posts) -
@Spitznock You wrote an incredibly biased OP, no one agreed with you, so now you're taking your ball and going home?

I agree, you should not try to start "conversations" here any more if all you're really hoping for is a chummy dogpile.
#47 Edited by flindip (533 posts) -

@pyrodactyl said:

@laserbolts: @Mcfart: @flindip: @Phatmac:

For a moment there I thought the giantbomb community was special and that this site was the place for informed and intelligent debat.

Then I remembered this is still the fucking internet and there is no place above personal insults on the internet.

Seriously, you guys on the first page, try to make a point instead of shiting on some dude's face because you dont like him very much.

Mc Shea is clearly not mean spirited and doesn't deserve that kind of treatment from us.

I've made my point in the previous thread a couple of months back. He is just regurgitating what he said before. There is no reason for me to do the same.

If you believe calling someone pretentious is some sort of deeply offensive personal attack, you probably need thicker skin. No offense.

#48 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@TeflonBilly said:

@Bourbon_Warrior: Cause he isn't making a coherent or cogent point. All he is doing is thumping his chest about having the supposed moral high ground by pointing out the fleaws of a bad game. His interview with the producer was insulting and disrespectful and his attitude is deplorable. He has shown time and time again that he doesn't know shit from shit and is talking out of his ass and in circles. He's the lowest form of scum "journalist" on par with tabloid sensationalists who hide behind moral outrage to boost their own sense of importance. He is the sort of person actively HURTING any attempt at real journalism with the way he acts and writes. The very core of what he's trying to get at could actually be argued and researched properly by somebody smart and talented, unfortunately he has the grace, wit and skills of a lobotomized ape.

Happy now?

No whats disrespectful is a video game maker going on about making an authentic realistic experience which turns out to just be a copy cat COD campaign with regenerating health. His story is the most journalistic thing I have seen from video game writers in years, they all go on about respecting the troops and caring is so bullshit all they care about is selling games to war hungry people that think war is the greatest fun ever. All McShea did was what the guy pointing the finger at him said to do, which was judge it after it has come out and you will see how we respected the troops when making this which was a blatant lie to sell copies.

Yes I am happy since you really didn't back up your slander at all. with stuff like "He doesn't know shit from shit" and "supposed moral high ground by pointing out the fleaws of a bad game", some really intelligent points there...

#49 Posted by Phatmac (5723 posts) -
@pyrodactyl

@laserbolts: @Mcfart: @flindip: @Phatmac:

For a moment there I thought the giantbomb community was special and that this site was the place for informed and intelligent debat.

Then I remembered this is still the fucking internet and there is no place above personal insults on the internet.

Seriously, you guys on the first page, try to make a point instead of shiting on some dude's face because you dont like him very much.

Mc Shea is clearly not mean spirited and doesn't deserve that kind of treatment from us.

You cannot be more off base on this topic Calm down.
#50 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

@jakob187: The case of those kids and there parent is rather unfortunate. I found your description hard to read. I can't imagine what it would be like to see that in person. Children should not be seeing intense violence and murder as okay and something to strive for and brag about. How many kid do you get desensitized like that opposed to... well, the opposite of that.

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