This game seems pretty poor. What am I doing wrong?

#1 Edited by Zevvion (1189 posts) -

My first thought when playing the game was that it was pretty awesome. Combat system seemed pretty cool and the over-the-top-ness a la DMC3 really appealed to me.

But I hit a point, can't say when exactly, where I thought the game was very poorly designed. I have a number of issues with the game that prevent me from having a good time and they all seem like design flaws to me. Now, I've checked and this game is supposedly super easy. I've checked some more and people appreciate the combat system.

I'm willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm just sucking at it. But can someone explain to me how to play this game then? I love games like Ninja Gaiden and DMC and am fairly good at them, so I started Revengeance on Hard. I have to say this is by far the hardest game I've ever played. So I'm guessing I'm doing something really wrong.

These are my issues with it:

  • The camera is terrible. Instead of not being able to keep up, it actually tries hard to make sure the action is not to be seen on screen (example: I'm knocked down, all enemies are onscreen, I get up, camera flips away to showcase Raiden and the wall behind him. Getting hit with invisible blows and die).
  • Parrying doesn't work as it should. It only works from complete idle stance. I cannot flow into a parry during a combo, which is insane. I'll either have to not use combo's or not parry, which seems crazy in a game like this, which brings me to my next point...
  • Combo's are useless. I'm doing a lot better button mashing light attack than I am actually doing combo's. Combo's often end with a respectively long flare animation (most notably YYXY) that cannot be interrupted to do anything. No new attack, no moving, no dodging and no parrying. It's actively promotes button mashing X until the enemy attacks.
  • Some enemies have invisible, unblockable blows. That's... really fucking cheap. I forget what they are called, but robot looking dudes with thick arms jump off the screen and rain down on top of you and although Ninja Running until they are back again works sometimes, it also doesn't work a good deal of the time and they still hit you with high damage.
  • Being stunned is frustrating. Especially because once they get one hit in, if you are fighting multiple dudes, you cannot do anything at all until they are done attacking you. If they land multiple blows, you will be stunned which requires way too much stick waggle to get out of before another attack lands. Getting hit once basically sets you up for death if you are fighting around 5 guys at once. Which would be fine but...
  • Enemies are damage sponges and Raiden is easily the weakest fighter in the game. Even with a level 3 upgraded damage blade, the most basic enemies seem to take a lot of damage before I'm able to finish them off. They take about twice as many hits as Raiden could and those are the enemies I don't have a problem with.
  • You need to break flow in order to be succesful. Having to run away when an enemy attacks is dumb in a game like this. I should be able to dodge, parry or block. But I have to get a few quick hits in, then run before they can retaliate. Close the distance, attack and get out again. Since they soak up a lot of damage it takes forever to clear a room with multiple enemies.
  • Rockets are cheap and seem misplaced. I cannot parry rockets. I cannot block rockets. I cannot dodge rockets. Most of the time I even cannot outrun rockets to miss me (because I'm in close quarters). So, whenever the rocket laser sight lights up, I need to run my ass towards whoever wields it and slice his face. Seems like a sound enemy design, except every single enemy has a rocket launcher at some point. I'm running back and forth trying to cancel their launches, but that's just not doable. Mix that with other enemy types that hit heavy and unblockable and it sucks real bad.

The game is really great at it's high points for me. The entire level (I believe 03?) after the car scene was great. It had a lot of enemies, but you could handle them pretty much without taking damage. But after that it got bad for me.

What am I doing wrong? If people think this game is easy then clearly I'm doing something wrong. But it just seems too much like poor design to me. Perhaps I need some pointers playing this?

#2 Posted by Baillie (3955 posts) -

I thought the game was garbage from the get-go. I love most of the games like it, including MGS. Sorry for not adding anything.

#3 Posted by Klei (1768 posts) -

@zevvion I thought Rising was pretty great, considering it was going to get cancelled if PG hadn't took it as a project. I beat the game on REvengeance, and didn't find it any cheaper than DMC or Ninja Gaiden. Unlike @baillie , I found the game to be quite the opposite of garbage. And I also tend to think that few people will agree with you on this. BUT NO MATTER!

A lot of your critisism revolves around the combat. You seem to have a hard time parrying, where I found it to be incredibly responsive and easy to pull off. You found the enemies to be hard to kill, when really, you just need to be efficient and cut their weakened limbs as soon as you can. You can also activate your rage mode during hard fights. Did you try using the other weapons?

Also, as for the rockets, I can only agree with you. But, as an asshole would say, get better at dodging them. You've got a pretty useful dodge input.

When in doubt, just boot up some youtube video of a guy roaming through REvengeance mode. You'll be surprised at how much you'll learn through it.

#4 Posted by Legion_ (1210 posts) -

I'll offer the same piece of advice as I always do.

Get better.

#5 Edited by PerfidiousSinn (716 posts) -

RE: Parrying and combos

Watch these.

RE: Unblockable attacks

Most enemies will glow golden before doing an unblockable, so look out for that. Buy the Defensive Offense from the skill shop which is your semi-invincible dodge move and learn how to time it. This will basically come down to learning enemy patterns though.

RE: Being stunned

Again, get in more practice with Defensive Offense and parrying. If you get hit less you'll get stunned less.

RE: Enemies take too much damage

You're not meant to cut them up for very long. Do heavy combos or moves that induce slow-mo (Down, Up + Light is a palm strike that you can buy. Induces Slow Mo when it connects with most enemies). Once you get a hard hit that sends the game into slow-mo, you can go into Blade Mode and kill them instantly.

Try reading some tips from here too. http://www.siliconera.com/2013/02/19/metal-gear-rising-playtest-a-different-kind-of-stylish-action-game/

Basically, you should be doing short combos and going into Blade Mode for instant kills rather than trying longer strings.

#6 Posted by Kjebka (32 posts) -

There is a dodge move you can buy from the upgrade menu, it's done by hitting jump and light attack at the same time and you can do it in any direction. Raiden is basically invincible through the whole animation and it cancels anything as far as I recall. It doesn't even interrupt combos, Raiden will go right to the next move after he's done dodging. It's an important move that doesn't really get highlighted. Using that will help with a lot of your issues.

It also sounds like something's not right with parrying, you should be able to parry anything at all that doesn't glow yellow, and you can do it almost any time. I don't get a good impression of what the issue is from what you say though, so maybe videos online will help.

#7 Posted by layer72o (8 posts) -

@zevvion: Coming from roughly the same background and starting on hard for my first playthrough, I hope I can provide some help. Most of your issues with the game are only issues with the game because you're bad, but that's okay, because you can get better and will get better as your play through the game, learning from your mistakes.

I didn't really have a grasp on parrying until Monsoon and that didn't really solidify until Sam, but by the end of the game I was fairly confident. Once you have parrying figured out you'll be destroying most enemies in a single counter attack regardless of difficulty.

The only thing I think the game can really be faulted for is the parry tutorial at the start being a poor explanation of parrying. You just tap those buttons, a light tap.

#8 Posted by Zevvion (1189 posts) -

RE: Enemies take too much damage

You're not meant to cut them up for very long. Do heavy combos or moves that induce slow-mo (Down, Up + Light is a palm strike that you can buy. Induces Slow Mo when it connects with most enemies). Once you get a hard hit that sends the game into slow-mo, you can go into Blade Mode and kill them instantly.

This helps. Thank you.

@layer72o said:

@zevvion: Coming from roughly the same background and starting on hard for my first playthrough, I hope I can provide some help. Most of your issues with the game are only issues with the game because you're bad, but that's okay, because you can get better and will get better as your play through the game, learning from your mistakes.

I didn't really have a grasp on parrying until Monsoon and that didn't really solidify until Sam, but by the end of the game I was fairly confident. Once you have parrying figured out you'll be destroying most enemies in a single counter attack regardless of difficulty.

The only thing I think the game can really be faulted for is the parry tutorial at the start being a poor explanation of parrying. You just tap those buttons, a light tap.

You are getting two different things mixed up. I basically have the skills to play the game really well. I just lack understanding of some of the combat design. I'm seeking some knowledge because I'm stone walling encounters based on passed game experiences instead of having a fresh look at this game in particular. This is obviously a different type of hack & slash action game than the others I've played. Those were also different from each other of course, but I've had my share of learning with those games.

It's not a problem in theory, but the thing is - and I highlighted in your post - I just don't get it. I'm not learning from my mistakes, because I do not recognize my mistakes. The actions I use should make me win in my head, but they are not. I'm not seeing what I'm doing wrong, although perfidioussinn made a good pointer for me.

More on this issue: dodge was one of the first things I bought and I can use it effectively in singular encounters with anyone, or with heaps of basic enemies. For instance, last I played I defeated Sundowner and used it there quite effectively (easiest boss so far, after Blade Wolf).

I can also parry quite well in, again, singular encounters with anyone or a lot of basic enemies. That's not really the issue. To clarify; where it gets troublesome for me is with specific enemy routines and mixes that (again, I'm not crazy, I understand it's me and not the game at this point) to me seem like poor design. For instance, I can dodge an attack. I can parry an attack. But I cannot dodge most missles, I cannot parry most missles. I can outrun them using Ninja Run though. So, there seems to be a solution to everything, but there is not. Because in certain mixes, the enemy I spoke of before (big arms, they have a lot of grab moves, jump around) closes the distance the very second I get away from them. So I'm always in close proximity to that enemy while rocket soldiers shoot at me with rockets. I've had two of those big guys and four rocket soldiers attack me, and it just seems like a losing battle.

Any parry I do will be against the big guys, but with rockets constantly flying at me, I cannot parry them as a parry would also mean a rocket in my face. I can dodge their attacks, but with 4 rockets coming at me, it doesn't matter where I dodge towards, at least one rocket will be waiting for me. If I run out and focus on the rocket soldiers, they take a lot of punishment and I cannot finish them off before the big guys jump off screen and use an unblockable move to jump on me, or even the other 3 guys launch rockets at me in close proximity.

There seems to be no way to solve this puzzle. It gets a lot crazier with more mixes. Last I was 'stuck' was on the elevator towards Sundowner. There was a hammer dude and three Raptors (I believe they are called... the flyers). I cannot focus on the hammer guy, but I can also barely focus on any single Raptor without another taking shots at me that I cannot block or dodge. I managed to get passed that section by trapping enemies in the environment and fighting them one by one.

... eh... sorry about the wall of text. Actually, I'm the kind of guy that vents his frustration in a thread... apparently. I have to admit I'm partially here to complain, but I do want to get the system better, because I love these types of games. But 'get better' isn't the advice I'm looking for. I'm more looking for tactical advice than game control advice.

Either way, I am progressing. It's not like I'm stuck. I just get frustrated in a lot of encounters.

#9 Edited by kingfang90 (2 posts) -

@zevvion: The parrying system works well idk what's your issue they even have a ability where you can auto parry.the enemies are meant to be sponges, you have a huge speed advantage with the ninja run and don't start your combos with heavy slashes all the time the light slashes work just fine and since it's on hard the enemies attacks aren't easily telegraphed and with the missles -.- dude have you tried blade mode.

#10 Posted by RecSpec (3683 posts) -

You have to learn the parry or you're going to have a rough time in that game. Dodging is a poor substitute, and bosses will eat you alive. I stumbled my way through the game without learning it, and it was a miserable experience. I'm not really sure what clicked for me the second time through, but I did end up figuring it out.

Also, practice the free cutting in Zandatsu mode, later on in the game bosses have that as a requirement, and again, I never used it up until those points.

#11 Posted by Zevvion (1189 posts) -

@recspec said:

You have to learn the parry or you're going to have a rough time in that game. Dodging is a poor substitute, and bosses will eat you alive. I stumbled my way through the game without learning it, and it was a miserable experience. I'm not really sure what clicked for me the second time through, but I did end up figuring it out.

Also, practice the free cutting in Zandatsu mode, later on in the game bosses have that as a requirement, and again, I never used it up until those points.

Really? I think the bosses are the easiest part of the game. There is only one enemy to focus on. I can parry and dodge just fine, so one on one nothing is a problem.

#12 Posted by csl316 (7392 posts) -

I had fun, even beat it twice. But the crazy development certainly didn't help. Seems it didn't reach its full potential in this outing so I'm hopeful for a sequel.

#13 Posted by tourgen (4257 posts) -

The game is pretty great you are just bad at it at the moment. Parry stuff and make sure you buy the Red Hot Kick ability (or whatever its called in this Platinum game). enjoy the boss fights they are crazy and awesome.

#14 Posted by Zevvion (1189 posts) -

Alright, I'm going through it on Revengeance mode right now. I got some good tips from a few people and seem to be getting the hang of it. The thing is, parrying is useless most of the time unlike what most people say. Maybe it's useful on Normal or Easy, but unless you do a Perfect Parry every time (which I'm assuming most people cannot do) it will stagger you and slow you down, opening you up for attacks from other enemies. It works fine one on one since no one else can attack you (which explains why I thought the boss fights were so much easier than the rest of the encounters), but when facing multiple enemies, especially mixes, it doesn't work so well.

Dodging works a lot better. It doesn't break your flow like imperfect parrying does, so you remain mobile, more elusive to attacks. Parrying is still useful, but not as a basic counter. You need to use it in specific situations where an immediate kill afterwards is possible.

Also, combo's are for stunned enemies only. As someone here pointed out, this isn't the type of game like DMC where long damaging combo's are the thing to do. Get in and get out works a lot better. Thanks to @perfidioussinn again.

The only thing I'm still having a problem with is the mediocre camera, some unblockables and rockets. Still can't get the hang of rockets in mixed fights.

#15 Edited by CptBedlam (4441 posts) -

@zevvion: First playthrough on Revengeance? Not a good idea imo. Play on hard for the best first-timer experience.

And yeah, the gameplay becomes more fun as you get better but some flaws will never go away (camera, being stunned is annoying as hell).

#16 Posted by Brendan (7522 posts) -

I thought the game was pretty good. Once the combat clicks it becomes much easier. Here's what drag it down: That awful fucking camera, and that one Zandatsu sequence during the last boss battle. You all know what I'm talking about.

#17 Posted by audioBusting (1318 posts) -

@zevvion: Like mentioned in the ChipCheezum video, you should be able to dodge right after a parry. You should also be able to parry more attacks from different enemies while you're locked in the parry position; you just have to move your analog stick to the right direction.

#18 Posted by vikingdeath1 (902 posts) -

Those glowing arm gorilla enemies were fucking Dicks.

basically by the end of the game I had memorized their attacks and could parry or dodge in time, but still.

also I thought that parry system was fantastic, so I dunno, play better?

#19 Edited by Skrams (260 posts) -

Since you got better and fixed a few problems the only thing I could suggest is for doofs that are firing guns/rockets at you, ninja run at them, hit Y, and usually that will cause them to toss up for an easy, instant zandatsu. Also the dodge makes you invincible for so long that you can just dodge most unblockables. I found two dodges usually led to me dodging the entire unblockable from things like Mastiffs. Sometimes they'd freak out and grab me still but not usually.

#20 Posted by ViciousAnchovy (692 posts) -

@zevvion: It looks like you gotten some pretty good advice already, and I don't know what those videos someone linked say because I can't watch them right now, but I do have some advice on how to parry that I didn't see. After you do the initial motion of pushing the stick.in the direction of the attack while pressing the attack button, you can parry combo attacks by just mashing the attack button and keeping the stick held; you don't have to repeat the motion. I know that took me a while to realize, but I'm not sure if you're doing that already.

#21 Edited by TangoUp (309 posts) -

Three issues I have yet to overcome are,

Parrying/Dodging in the middle of a combo especially with the big units around because of their AoE attacks.

I sometimes can't see the enemies I'm trying to attack because the camera looks away.

The target lock keeps toggling between enemies because of the right stick presumably, but I need the right stick to look around (the camera in Ninja Run automatically stays fixed behind Raiden. So, does it only allow the use of right stick for toggling target lock?) The constant switching sometimes discourages me from trying direction sensitive attacks like the HF Blade Energy Wave. Camera wasn't a problem in Vanquish though, so I'm not sure what's causing it here.

And fuck those Helghan Gorillas.

#22 Posted by Verendus (348 posts) -

I was surprised how much I ended up enjoying the game, the camera was bit clunky at times. My experience suffered the most from being way too short though. I wish they would've introduced the bosses a bit, you know other than "Hello, My name is Mistral. Let's fight" and that's it.

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