I believe the ending just mindf***** me

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#1 Edited by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -

 SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY
 
So I just beat this for the first time on the hd collection and holy shit that ending. Now I've played most of one except the very end which I read about and got the jist of it but I was hoping someone could proofread me. 

Ocelot believed that arsenal was a simulation to basically turn people (raiden in this case) into the solider that big boss was based off of te shadow Moses incident.

But this wasn't actually true and this is where I get lost. How exactly was this a test of them using censorship? By deceiving ocelot?

Overall other than a few camera/control issues I enjoyed the game and can't wait to play up to 4 again and be able to put the pieces together

Thanks for the help!

#2 Posted by CptChiken (1987 posts) -

You only just finished MGS2?! wow!  
 
But yeah MGS2 was a great great game, i cant remember home many times i have played through it but it was a lot.

#3 Posted by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -
@CptChiken Ya I'm pretty behind on the series
#4 Posted by Toms115 (2316 posts) -

well good luck with mgs4 because that shit is nonsensical as fuck

#5 Posted by N7 (3589 posts) -

The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. 
 
Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.

#6 Posted by Liquidus (946 posts) -

@Toms115 said:

well good luck with mgs4 because that shit is nonsensical as fuck

They explain everything in MGS4 pretty thoroughly, I mean, that's why it has so much cutscenes.

#7 Posted by Mnemoidian (955 posts) -

As I understand it (largely because it's been a long time ago...) and reading a wiki, the whole S3 being Solid Snake Simulation program was a ruse, and it's actually "Selection for Societal Sanity", though, ultimately, the effect is pretty much the same - the Big Shell Incident is a recreation of the Shadow Moses Incident (4 years earlier) created by controlling information, and while Raiden played the role of Solid Snake, Solid(us) Snake played the role of Liquid Snake (and a lot of other factors), Raiden pretty much played his role perfectly.

Basically, it was all about proving the Patriots could manipulate world events.

But yeah, that's from memory + some wiki support. It's pretty crazy stuff! :)

Hope that helps, and that you enjoy Snake Eater, it's an amazing game :)

#8 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

@Sackmanjones said:

So I just beat this for the first time on the hd collection and holy shit that ending. Now I've played most of one except the very end which I read about and got the jist of it but I was hoping someone could proofread me. Ocelot believed that arsenal was a simulation to basically turn people (raiden in this case) into the solider that big boss was based off of te shadow Moses incident. But this wasn't actually true and this is where I get lost. How exactly was this a test of them using censorship? By deceiving ocelot? Overall other than a few camera/control issues I enjoyed the game and can't wait to play up to 4 again and be able to put the pieces together Thanks for the help!

The test of censorship was "La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo". Whenever you heard that in the game, the character was actually saying "Patriots", but the nanomachines in Raiden censored that word, and made it nonsensical, so people would have trouble discussing and discovering the truth behind the Patriots.

The whole game was a training simulation meant to emulate Metal Gear Solid 1, to find out if putting another soldier through the same trials that Solid Snake went through would result in a similar effective soldier. It was a "real life" virtual reality simulation.

The Patriots wanted to see if they could control people and situations and set the events of the game up to find out if they could. Solidus wanted to destroy the Patriots. Ocelot was pretending to work for the Patriots, but was using them to find out information about them and bring them down himself.

#9 Posted by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -
@Mnemoidian: Thanks that helps a ton and I can't wait to start that one! In fact I just started it now ha
#10 Posted by Mnemoidian (955 posts) -

@Wrighteous86 said:

The test of censorship was "La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo". Whenever you heard that in the game, the character was actually saying "Patriots", but the nanomachines in Raiden censored that word, and made it nonsensical, so people would have trouble discussing and discovering the truth behind the Patriots.

Huh, I hadn't picked up on that - makes sense though! Thanks. :)

#11 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11739 posts) -

I just like how the entire plot represents a giant middle finger to people who liked MGS1. Seriously, the moment where I realized that everything was meant to be the exact same is the moment I realized how delightfully batshit this whole series is.

#12 Posted by DocHaus (1331 posts) -
@N7 said:
The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through.   Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.
Actually the S3 Program was really the Selection for Societal Sanity as revealed by the Patriots at the end of the game, though Liquid/Ocelot thought that it was to create a perfect soldier in reality it was to see how the AI could manipulate events on both a micro and macro level as they transitioned the world into OH CHRIST I HAVE BECOME ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.
#13 Posted by ch3burashka (5073 posts) -

If that mindfucks you, wait 'til you finish MGS3.

#14 Posted by RSNielsen (3 posts) -

@Wrighteous86 said:

@Sackmanjones said:

So I just beat this for the first time on the hd collection and holy shit that ending. Now I've played most of one except the very end which I read about and got the jist of it but I was hoping someone could proofread me. Ocelot believed that arsenal was a simulation to basically turn people (raiden in this case) into the solider that big boss was based off of te shadow Moses incident. But this wasn't actually true and this is where I get lost. How exactly was this a test of them using censorship? By deceiving ocelot? Overall other than a few camera/control issues I enjoyed the game and can't wait to play up to 4 again and be able to put the pieces together Thanks for the help!

The test of censorship was "La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo". Whenever you heard that in the game, the character was actually saying "Patriots", but the nanomachines in Raiden censored that word, and made it nonsensical, so people would have trouble discussing and discovering the truth behind the Patriots.

The whole game was a training simulation meant to emulate Metal Gear Solid 1, to find out if putting another soldier through the same trials that Solid Snake went through would result in a similar effective soldier. It was a "real life" virtual reality simulation.

The Patriots wanted to see if they could control people and situations and set the events of the game up to find out if they could. Solidus wanted to destroy the Patriots. Ocelot was pretending to work for the Patriots, but was using them to find out information about them and bring them down himself.

Actually its pronounced La LIi Lu Le Lo. Sorry just had to get it out ;)

#15 Posted by BoG (5191 posts) -

Yeah, most everyone else explained it. Just remember, Solid Snake Snimulation was a lie, it was actually Selection for Societal Sanity.

MGS3 is next for you, and has the best story in the series.

#16 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

MGS2 is so good.

#17 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

This thread has gone a long way to clear up some confusion I've had over the ending of MGS2 for years.

#18 Posted by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -
@Ravenlight I take full credit ha
#19 Posted by Psykhophear (939 posts) -

I love MGS2. I played it a few times because it's fun and also I wanted to understand the story better. For me, the story about the Patriots was mind-numbingly confusing but after playing MGS 3 and 4. it made a lot more sense.

#20 Posted by BisonHero (6526 posts) -

@ArbitraryWater said:

I just like how the entire plot represents a giant middle finger to people who liked MGS1. Seriously, the moment where I realized that everything was meant to be the exact same is the moment I realized how delightfully batshit this whole series is.

It's doubly ridiculous when you consider that MGS1 was, itself, largely just a pastiche of the events in Metal Gear and especially Metal Gear 2. (linkdetailing how similar they are. HERE BE SPOILERS FOR MGS1). MGS2-Kojima was all like "Yo dawg, guess what? This game is actually trying to be a clever recreation of the game right before it!" To which I said "Wait, didn't you already just do that?"

And then MGS3 went a similar route, more directly copying the "parachute into jungle enemy base" scenario of Metal Gear 2. (linkdetailing how similar they are. SPOILERS FOR MGS3)

MGS2, for all its claims to be trying to imitate the events of Shadow Moses, is actually one of the least derivative MGS games. The game's content and plotting is pretty far removed from the previous Metal Gear games, aside from a small number of direct things like having a cyborg ninja, being attacked by an aircraft while on a bridge, finding out that your superiors on the codec are not what they seem, and the first area of the Big Shell that is very obviously trying to remind you of MGS1's first area.

I know Kojima plays with the similarities each time, which I guess counts as a bit of a wink to the players, but the Metal Gear series recycles its general setting, story beats, and gameplay scenarios so often, I'm surprised people don't give the series more shit for it. I mean, at least Zelda was set on an ocean that one time.

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#21 Posted by Hizang (8532 posts) -

@Sackmanjones: Seeing as you just finished MGS2 I have a few questions, I would be interested to see this from your point of view.

  1. What do you think Vamp is?
  2. Did you know Olga was the Ninja?
  3. How did you feel when Emma got stabbed and then died, did you suspect it?
  4. Who did you like more, Raiden or Snake?
#22 Posted by TobbRobb (4649 posts) -

I needed this refresh... Goddammit I've watched that ending 4 times, 2 of them I fell asleep (I marathoned that shit), one I was to young to understand ANYTHING, and the one time I saw it the way I was supposed to was fucking years ago...

This thread reminded me why I love/hate this game so much.

#23 Posted by clstirens (847 posts) -

@BisonHero said:

@ArbitraryWater said:

I just like how the entire plot represents a giant middle finger to people who liked MGS1. Seriously, the moment where I realized that everything was meant to be the exact same is the moment I realized how delightfully batshit this whole series is.

I mean, at least Zelda was set on an ocean that one time.

Big Shell IS on the ocean after all :P

#24 Posted by Kandycane2029 (511 posts) -
 Directed by...
#25 Posted by Akyho (1647 posts) -

FISSION MAILED! THE FISSION HAS BEEN MAILED!

I was playing the end part and when the "Campbell" goes "MAD" I was hiding in a box as the Haven soldiers hunted for me. I just needed to move a little and not be clipped by a guy and found. Instead Campbell said something like "As i rode the purple sparkly worm!" I cant remember all i know i was holding my stomach laughing and the soilder found me kicked my box over and began to gun me down. I however was laughing too much to care.

Ill give you a hint for the future in the form of music in what to expect in MGS4.

#26 Posted by Draugen (649 posts) -

@Sackmanjones: I'm right there with you. When it first came out, I played it through for 12 straight hours. Then I curled up in a foetal position on the floor, and slept until the next day.

#27 Posted by DXmagma (317 posts) -

@Sackmanjones: I won't bore you with another plot synopsis since you got the jist of it in other posts, but I will say most of the plot is explained in 4. Raiden got kinda...existential near the end. All that AI jazz messed him up pretty bad. Granted, I'm only going on what I've been told since I haven't finished 4, but it supposedly works pretty well.

also fun fact: The reason people keep saying La-Li-lu-la-lo is because those sounds don't exist in the Japanese language. You literal can't say it in Japanese. English doesn't work that way though so it just sounds like gibberish.

#28 Posted by BisonHero (6526 posts) -

@Hizang said:

@Sackmanjones: Seeing as you just finished MGS2 I have a few questions, I would be interested to see this from your point of view.

  1. What do you think Vamp is?
  2. Did you know Olga was the Ninja?
  3. How did you feel when Emma got stabbed and then died, did you suspect it?
  4. Who did you like more, Raiden or Snake?

I never bothered playing the series after MGS2 (though I've heard a fair amount from friends), so I'm going to answer your questions, but put them in a spoiler block so Sackmanjones can give his answers without being influenced by mine. No peeking, Sackmanjones!

1. I dunno, some kind of bullshit nanomachine vampire? Everything is nanomachines already, so why not? I honestly didn't fucking care by the time the credits rolled, as I thought his character was lame and uninteresting (see also: Fatman, Fortune, Solidus Snake). Also, the ending contained so much other unexplained insanity that Vamp took lower priority. He has some bond with Fortune or something? They didn't seem to develop his character at all, or give his powers/motivations any sufficient explanation, and I sure as hell wasn't going to tune in to the sequel to learn more. The closest thing to Vamp's bullshit was Vulcan Raven, who inexplicably had raven magic powers that came out of his forehead that he only ever used like once, but I'll let that one go because Vulcan Raven is fucking awesome.

2. Well, I knew Olga was the ninja when the game tells you, sometime near the end of Big Shell/beginning of Arsenal Gear. I'm pretty sure the game explicitly makes that clear to you. Or did you mean to ask "Did you predict that the Ninja would turn out to be Olga?" In that case, no, because her main motivation of "PATRIOTS STOLE MAH DAUGHTER!" isn't even revealed to the player until like the same moment she reveals that she is the Ninja. I guess I figured they might bring her back in some respect since it's intentionally impossible to kill her on the tanker, but I never guessed she was the ninja.

3. Meh. In general, Emma was super whiny compared to Meryl, and as an NPC companion, I was not crazy about her extreme uselessness. I guess I sort of expected "tragic moment where NPC companion is injured and you're powerless to stop it", seeing as MGS1 did that with Meryl getting shot by Sniper Wolf, but I was surprised they ended up making it a fatal wound, and there wasn't some way to have her survive.

4. I liked Snake more. Raiden's insufferable passive-aggressive banter with Rose about not remembering what's important about a particular date kinda made me hate both characters. Aside from that, the rest of my preference is more gut feeling, like how David Hayter's Solid Snake voice is godlike, while Quinton Flynn's Raiden just doesn't sound like the sort of guy who has gone through years of military training to become a highly trained supersoldier.

Bonus fifth question for Sackmanjones:

5. Why do you think Revolver Ocelot is occasionally taken over by Liquid Snake? (Hint: come up with the dumbest thing you can possibly imagine)

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#29 Posted by ComradeKhan (687 posts) -
@N7 said:
The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. 
The S3 program really stands for "Selection for Societal Sanity"
#30 Edited by ComradeKhan (687 posts) -
@Wrighteous86 said: 

The test of censorship was "La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo". Whenever you heard that in the game, the character was actually saying "Patriots", but the nanomachines in Raiden censored that word, and made it nonsensical, so people would have trouble discussing and discovering the truth behind the Patriots.

But the first time that you hear someone say "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" is when you are playing as Snake on the tanker, and when you are playing as Raiden you hear plenty of people say "Patriots". Raiden says it himself.

#31 Posted by DXmagma (317 posts) -

@BisonHero: You really should give 3 a chance. It's fantastic. It's also mostly self contained so you don't really need to play any of the other games to jump in. Peace Walker's pretty fantastic too even though it's a bit watered down, but being a PSP game that's to be expected. I played about a third of 4 and that was pretty great as well, but I kinda dug the plot of 2.

For the record, none of the sequels have the ham fisted political message 2 did. No "Do you have a right to freedom?" to be found.

#32 Posted by BisonHero (6526 posts) -

@DXmagma: Funny that you should say that, because I decided a while ago that I'll pick up MGS3 for the 3DS, because I've heard enough good things about it over the years.

Part of the reason I stopped playing the MGS series was simply that I've never owned a Sony console. I played MGS 1 and 2 on a friend's PS2 (I bet on Gamecube that generation; not a great bet in terms of the quantity of decent games available to me, but I found some games that I love to death even now), now I don't talk to that friend anymore, and don't have any other friends that have both a PS3 and an interest in MGS.

I think what I don't like about MGS2 is that it kind of betrayed my concept of what the MGS series is, i.e. a thrilling action game with spy movie levels of villainy. I guess Kojima must've just really wanted to make a weird postmodern game, but then Konami said "Look, MGS is the only thing making us any money, you have to keep making MGS games", so he put it in MGS2. It just felt out of place in what was otherwise a series that played it pretty straight, in Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2, and Metal Gear Solid (and from the sounds of it, Metal Gear Solid 3 is also reasonably free of mindfuckery).

I'm fine with postmodern mindfucks, but more so when the game is fully devoted to it, instead of a completely stupid ending that gets really weird out of nowhere, which is how I would describe MGS2. Killer7 is rife with totally insane symbolism, confusion, allegories (maybe?), and plot twists that you only half understand, but I thought it was totally great because of how heavily it committed to that direction throughout. Come to think of it, that would make for a really great Endurance Run, except the game might end up being about as long as Giant Bomb took to play Deadly Premonition, and even that is being a little generous on my part.

Online
#33 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

@ComradeKhan said:

@Wrighteous86 said:

The test of censorship was "La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo". Whenever you heard that in the game, the character was actually saying "Patriots", but the nanomachines in Raiden censored that word, and made it nonsensical, so people would have trouble discussing and discovering the truth behind the Patriots.

But the first time that you hear someone say "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" is when you are playing as Snake on the tanker, and when you are playing as Raiden you hear plenty of people say "Patriots". Raiden says it himself.

From the Metal Gear wiki:

To control the flow of information, they would control the economy, by influencing the outcome of these wars through theSons of the Patriots system which would also allow them to control individual people. The Patriots planned to extend their control down to the civilian level, actively controlling and censoring people through nanomachines, such as the nickname "La-li-lu-le-lo." In this case, members of "the system" were under the Patriots's direct influence could not even mention the name "the Patriots" and were forced by their nanomachines to say the codename.

I had it flipped. Nanomachines didn't make you hear "La-li-lu-le-lo". It made you say it.

#34 Posted by Legend (2659 posts) -

I remember thinking the plot of MGS games was genius. Looking back at it now, it's kind of laughably bad. :P MGS is still one of my favorite series of all time, though. I must've played through MGS2 like 50 times.

#35 Posted by Willin (1280 posts) -

All this talk about Raiden/Snake is null and void because Raiden is a cyber-future ninja and that's pretty fucking cool.

#36 Posted by ComradeKhan (687 posts) -
@Wrighteous86 said:

@ComradeKhan said:

@Wrighteous86 said:

The test of censorship was "La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo". Whenever you heard that in the game, the character was actually saying "Patriots", but the nanomachines in Raiden censored that word, and made it nonsensical, so people would have trouble discussing and discovering the truth behind the Patriots.

But the first time that you hear someone say "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" is when you are playing as Snake on the tanker, and when you are playing as Raiden you hear plenty of people say "Patriots". Raiden says it himself.

From the Metal Gear wiki:

To control the flow of information, they would control the economy, by influencing the outcome of these wars through theSons of the Patriots system which would also allow them to control individual people. The Patriots planned to extend their control down to the civilian level, actively controlling and censoring people through nanomachines, such as the nickname "La-li-lu-le-lo." In this case, members of "the system" were under the Patriots's direct influence could not even mention the name "the Patriots" and were forced by their nanomachines to say the codename.

I had it flipped. Nanomachines didn't make you hear "La-li-lu-le-lo". It made you say it.

Hmm, interesting. I never did understand that fully but still hadn't actually looked up what was really going on from a wiki or anything. I was just thinking back over the game from memory after reading your first post and remembered hearing them say both... But now i know.
#37 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3052 posts) -

Oh fuck yes.

#38 Posted by DXmagma (317 posts) -

@BisonHero: Here's the thing: Kojima didn't want to MAKE 2. He wanted to make something new, another genre setter, but Konami wouldn't fund it unless he made another. So all that post modernism was added as a "Fuck you" to people who wanted a sequel so much.

Luckily, Kojima seemed to come around again and really gave his all into 3. It's fantastic, in plot and gameplay. I won't ruin it for you, but it's got some heavy themes regarding patriotism. Unlike MGS2 however, it lets you decipher them for yourself. If you can pick it up for 360, I'd get the collection. Mostly because it's not something that should be experienced on a bus or car ride, it needs your full attention. But if a 3DS is all you got, I guess you could just play it at home in a comfy chair.

@Legend: I wouldn't call it "laughably bad." At it's core I still think it's really good, just a bit heavy handed and pretentious. It does get considerably better as it goes on. I still think 3 and Peace Walker are some of the best video game plots around, if not THE best.

#39 Posted by BisonHero (6526 posts) -

@DXmagma said:

Mostly because it's not something that should be experienced on a bus or car ride, it needs your full attention. But if a 3DS is all you got, I guess you could just play it at home in a comfy chair.

For what it's worth, I've always broken my DS games into 2 stacks: bus ride/train ride games, and home games. The former group is stuff that is not real-time, and stuff that doesn't require me to frequently check a guide to figure out how to do stuff, and has mostly ended up being stuff like the Layton games, the Phoenix Wright games, and weird outliers like Super Scribblenauts. The latter group is everything else, and will include MGS3.

Advice followed.

Online
#40 Posted by Chris86 (65 posts) -

For every plot point that you don't understand in the Metal Gear series, just assume nanomachines.

#41 Posted by I_smell (3924 posts) -
@N7 said:
The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through.   Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.
Oh my goooooooooooddddd! This is like my favourite game, and my only complaint about it was always that "It's basically a carbon copy of MGS1".
Knowing now that that was the point of the game (which I never noticed) is insane, and somehow makes me like this even more.
#42 Posted by kashif1 (1428 posts) -

@I_smell said:

@N7 said:
The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.
Oh my goooooooooooddddd! This is like my favourite game, and my only complaint about it was always that "It's basically a carbon copy of MGS1". Knowing now that that was the point of the game (which I never noticed) is insane, and somehow makes me like this even more.

Its wierder than that. The patriots wanted to prove they could control a person in the most extreme situation possible. The most extreme situation they had on record was Sadow Moses. Now here is where it gets weird, Raiden never questioned his orders, most players never question Raiden's orders. Therefor the Patriots are not only able to control raiden but also the player. Kojima controls you.

#43 Posted by FLStyle (4700 posts) -
@kashif1 said:

@I_smell said:

@N7 said:
The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.
Oh my goooooooooooddddd! This is like my favourite game, and my only complaint about it was always that "It's basically a carbon copy of MGS1". Knowing now that that was the point of the game (which I never noticed) is insane, and somehow makes me like this even more.

Its wierder than that. The patriots wanted to prove they could control a person in the most extreme situation possible. The most extreme situation they had on record was Sadow Moses. Now here is where it gets weird, Raiden never questioned his orders, most players never question Raiden's orders. Therefor the Patriots are not only able to control raiden but also the player. Kojima controls you.

Ahhh, the hidden depth of MGS2, too insightful for its own good. Kojima should've saved this kind of thought process for a non-MGS franchise, then it wouldn't have been buried under the nerd-rage from anti-Raiden fans.
Online
#44 Posted by Buckwatters (141 posts) -

@N7 said:

The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.

Wasn't there something about how it was also a way for the patriots to use things like the media to control the public? It's been about 4 years since I played through MGS 1-4 so I might be a bit hazy...

#45 Posted by Quarters (1704 posts) -

@Buckwatters said:

@N7 said:

The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.

Wasn't there something about how it was also a way for the patriots to use things like the media to control the public? It's been about 4 years since I played through MGS 1-4 so I might be a bit hazy...

They talked about stuff like that throughout the game. Examples such as the Patriots using Y2K as an excuse to get a monitoring program into people's computer, and them controlling known information. Emma, for example, poses the question of how many letters are in the alphabet. Snake says 26, and she asks him how he knows. She then goes on to explain that they could have easily changed that number, just as they changed the recorded amount of human bones in the body, or something like that. Since they were in control of everything, they just bent the media to their whims, like how they used Solidus as a puppet when he was president.

#46 Posted by AjayRaz (12428 posts) -

this thread reminds me of how completely messed up MGS2 is. i never even noticed the similarities until now.

i.. i need to go lay down. either that, or go play MGS2 again.

#47 Posted by BulletproofMonk (2721 posts) -

I fucking love Kojima.

#48 Posted by Sackmanjones (4705 posts) -
@Hizang said:

@Sackmanjones: Seeing as you just finished MGS2 I have a few questions, I would be interested to see this from your point of view.

  1. What do you think Vamp is?
  2. Did you know Olga was the Ninja?
  3. How did you feel when Emma got stabbed and then died, did you suspect it?
  4. Who did you like more, Raiden or Snake?
I guess I should clear some things up before I answer. I have actually already  beaten mgs 4 so I was already aware of Vamp. With that said 
 
1. I still think he is quite an interesting character. His first intro cutscene really makes an impression of " well I really don't wanna fight this guy" 
 
2. I had no clue about this. I thought they might have just come up with some crazy thing so the previoius ninja (grey fox I believe?) was still it.  So i was shocked to see that reveiling. 
 
3. I was a bit surprised at when it happened but not exactly that it happened.  I was thinking she was going to get killed somehow but even when vamp grabbed her I thought she would have made it.  Thinking back now I do recall her death being mentioned in 4 but I haven't played that game in forever so I didn't remember till just now ha. 
 
4. Snake. I don''t like Raiden in this game, I don't hate the guy but he just isn't my favorite, especially compared to Solid Snake.  Not specifically because you play him instead of Snake, I just mostly think its the poor voice acting and character model.  I mean when the president goes to grab his crotch to see if he is a man proves my point there haha. With that said, I think they did a fantastic job recreating him in 4 and making him a pretty awesome character 
 
Hoped that answered your questions!
#49 Posted by N7 (3589 posts) -
@FLStyle said:
@kashif1 said:

@I_smell said:

@N7 said:
The whole incident was a cover for the S3 Program. The Solid Snake Simulation. The whole thing was a cookie-cutter reenactment of the Shadow Moses incident to turn Raiden into a soldier better than Snake. This fell through. Solidus was trying to destroy The Patriots by going the extremest route, and Ocelot was the mastermind behind it all so he could get the data on The Patriots.
Oh my goooooooooooddddd! This is like my favourite game, and my only complaint about it was always that "It's basically a carbon copy of MGS1". Knowing now that that was the point of the game (which I never noticed) is insane, and somehow makes me like this even more.

Its wierder than that. The patriots wanted to prove they could control a person in the most extreme situation possible. The most extreme situation they had on record was Sadow Moses. Now here is where it gets weird, Raiden never questioned his orders, most players never question Raiden's orders. Therefor the Patriots are not only able to control raiden but also the player. Kojima controls you.

Ahhh, the hidden depth of MGS2, too insightful for its own good. Kojima should've saved this kind of thought process for a non-MGS franchise, then it wouldn't have been buried under the nerd-rage from anti-Raiden fans.
He was just joking. Raiden questioned EVERYTHING HE POSSIBLY COULD. Because he was new to the series, and embodied players new to the game and how they would most likely be confused by everything.
#50 Posted by TheHBK (5485 posts) -

This game was fucking retarded. I played it and it back when it came out and finished the series but this is where things went stupid. Arsenal's AI GW is also supposed to go into the infrastructure of the world to create censorship and the Patriots also used this Shell incident as a training simulation to be similar to Shadow Moses. Kojima is a terrible story teller. Creative I guess but he has no fucking idea how to piece a story together well, what should or shouldn't go in, and just figures it out as he goes along. You could tell he never planned any of this fucking series out. And I think it is pretty sad no one had the balls to say, that shit don't make sense or hey, we really don't need that shit to be so over the top if you want to tell a real story or give something emotional significance. A fat guy on roller skates? Fuck you Kojima.

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