Oh God Why: MGS3 and how it makes my heart bleed.

Posted by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

Why! Why must the times be so cruel! And I'm not referring to the stupid silly delay the MGS HD collection underwent (which was still silly stupid), but for how my own tolerance for video games must move forward so fast. To put it bluntly, I don't think MGS3 has aged well at all. And it's killing me inside with a serrated blade... dipped in poison, while on fire, and I'm being force-fed laxatives giving me violent diarrhoea in the process.

MGS3 was one of my favourite games on the ps2; hell, it may well be one of my favourite games of all time. But after playing through it very recently, it comes across as unapologetically clunky and cumbersome. The shooting controls are hard to adapt to after so many improvements made across the years, not being able to move while crouching is pure insanity, and the camo and how it'll quickly dart down to 30% just as your elbow touches a speck of a different texture causing you to be spotted from a guy 50 miles away is ever so frustrating. To be fair, I remember that it all gets much easier to bear once I unlocked the ''Snake'' camo for beating down The Boss' stamina gauge, but I'm still going to have to complete the game to get to that point.

What also strikes me as dated, even by the game's original release standards, was how you couldn't just drop grenades when you're trying to escape from American accented Russians. So you're spotted right, and you'd imagine you could just drop a stun grenade on your current position and POOF like Batman or some shit. But instead, Snake has to pause on the spot and then do a small underarm throw; even when you're in the midst of running away, he'll stop on the fucking spot just to then girly-throw a grenade--seriously, Snake has a really poor throwing arm even when you hold the button in! What's crazy is that you could totally utilise such a tactic in the very first MGS! I can distinctly remember doing as such when I'm running up/down the towers before the Hind-D boss battle, with all of the gun-cameras scattered about.

The way the controls reverse or go completely sideways when you're up against a wall and attempt to move the camera around, forcing you to either accidentally get off the wall, or begin to shimmy, or even fall off if you're shimmying against a cliff-side or something is another bullet-point to add to my ever increasing rage! The way you're not able to maybe look down off the edge of a small hilltop or hill that you're crawling across, or drop a grenade on the guy who may be right below you is an another example.

And it's not like the game is too difficult or anything; it's just that we all want to play stealth games right. We don't want to get spotted and then be forced into some clunky shooting scenarios, especially since when you're in alert status, your camo stands for shit all. I mean even if you're out of sight but the alert phase is going, they will still know exactly where you are regardless of whether your camo index hits -9000% or 95%.

Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with me being impatient or lacking the focus to meticulously crawl everywhere. But there's a lot of overt clunkiness across every facet of the stealth gameplay that it often comes down to you being spotted because of the game's own clumsy mechanics. It's commendable that the game has such complex potential within, and MGS3 definitely made a heap of impressive improvements to its own formula, but the gameplay elements aren't able to match the complexity and give you the right amount of efficiency to tackle the stealth scenarios. There are far too many barriers created through the screwy gameplay that are then placed over the barriers implemented through MGS3's own design choices - it all starts to feel almost overwhelming.

Back when I first played it, I'm sure I went through some similar frustrations, but washed 'em off for the sake of everything else. The hunting mechanic is still really well done and unique, listening to 40 minute codec calls are still almost therapeutic, the writing is solid, the voice-acting is still a good blend of self-seriousness and goofiness, the cutscenes are still grand to watch (though the lip syncing is really poor), the boss battles are still inventive and fun, the soundtrack is still the goddamn MGS3 soundtrack, the ingenuity like the Sorrow & End (among many other things) boss battles are still ingenious (or I'd like to think... haven't actually gotten that far yet), and the story is easily my favourite of the lot. A lot of those specific aspects fortunately still manage to impress.

However, even if the increased dependence on age-old gadgets that have limited battery power, silencers that deteriorate, and your radar being replaced with your own cunning and self-awareness was a massive leap over MGS2's comparatively simple mechanics, those simple mechanics still make for a more satisfying stealth game because I felt like I was on even ground; I didn't often have to fight against a myriad of gameplay goofs alongside the overall increased complexity and resulting difficulty. For MGS3 I feel like I spend half of my playtime downing fake-death pills so I can just restart the whole area - all because of one small mistake leading into complete and utter chaos

Of course this sort of reaction is nothing new; nostalgia is both a loving and deceptive mistress, who likes to keep your memories warm and fuzzy, long hidden from reality. The same reality you are also ill-prepared to face. But.... it's Metal Gear Solid 3! How can this happen to me!? Why must this happen to me?! Is it because I touch myself at night?!?

Honestly, I think MGS3 was ahead of its time. It had the innovation, it had the ideas, it executed on some of those ideas, but didn't have the current tech nor the current mindset that would have really helped it flourish. MGS4 made innumerable incremental improvements, but it still can't top MGS3 as a whole for me for many, many reasons that I can't entirely be bothered getting into. But if MGS3 was to be re-released with MGS4's controls and added improvements, then it could very well match the memories I used to have of MGS3 prior to this horrifying realisation.

It's basically just like The Boss herself said and how everything is dictated by the times. /pseudo-intellectualism

Will I ever even return to MGS3 again? I'm at least still banking on the idea that once I get the 'Snake' camo, everything's going to be alright better, since it consistently stays within around 80% regardless of the terrain. But even still, I'm currently just not having a lot of fun. And again, it's an awful lot of me taking my sweet time tranquillising everyone, only to then have my master plan foiled because peeking your camouflaged head from behind a piece of cover will apparently always destroy any and all attempts to blend in - full stop. I mean seriously, no exceptions? It has to always drain down to a staggering 0%?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: The original Devil May Cry sucks to play now, too. But DMC3 is still as fun and addictive as ever, so it's all good in that department.

#1 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

Why! Why must the times be so cruel! And I'm not referring to the stupid silly delay the MGS HD collection underwent (which was still silly stupid), but for how my own tolerance for video games must move forward so fast. To put it bluntly, I don't think MGS3 has aged well at all. And it's killing me inside with a serrated blade... dipped in poison, while on fire, and I'm being force-fed laxatives giving me violent diarrhoea in the process.

MGS3 was one of my favourite games on the ps2; hell, it may well be one of my favourite games of all time. But after playing through it very recently, it comes across as unapologetically clunky and cumbersome. The shooting controls are hard to adapt to after so many improvements made across the years, not being able to move while crouching is pure insanity, and the camo and how it'll quickly dart down to 30% just as your elbow touches a speck of a different texture causing you to be spotted from a guy 50 miles away is ever so frustrating. To be fair, I remember that it all gets much easier to bear once I unlocked the ''Snake'' camo for beating down The Boss' stamina gauge, but I'm still going to have to complete the game to get to that point.

What also strikes me as dated, even by the game's original release standards, was how you couldn't just drop grenades when you're trying to escape from American accented Russians. So you're spotted right, and you'd imagine you could just drop a stun grenade on your current position and POOF like Batman or some shit. But instead, Snake has to pause on the spot and then do a small underarm throw; even when you're in the midst of running away, he'll stop on the fucking spot just to then girly-throw a grenade--seriously, Snake has a really poor throwing arm even when you hold the button in! What's crazy is that you could totally utilise such a tactic in the very first MGS! I can distinctly remember doing as such when I'm running up/down the towers before the Hind-D boss battle, with all of the gun-cameras scattered about.

The way the controls reverse or go completely sideways when you're up against a wall and attempt to move the camera around, forcing you to either accidentally get off the wall, or begin to shimmy, or even fall off if you're shimmying against a cliff-side or something is another bullet-point to add to my ever increasing rage! The way you're not able to maybe look down off the edge of a small hilltop or hill that you're crawling across, or drop a grenade on the guy who may be right below you is an another example.

And it's not like the game is too difficult or anything; it's just that we all want to play stealth games right. We don't want to get spotted and then be forced into some clunky shooting scenarios, especially since when you're in alert status, your camo stands for shit all. I mean even if you're out of sight but the alert phase is going, they will still know exactly where you are regardless of whether your camo index hits -9000% or 95%.

Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with me being impatient or lacking the focus to meticulously crawl everywhere. But there's a lot of overt clunkiness across every facet of the stealth gameplay that it often comes down to you being spotted because of the game's own clumsy mechanics. It's commendable that the game has such complex potential within, and MGS3 definitely made a heap of impressive improvements to its own formula, but the gameplay elements aren't able to match the complexity and give you the right amount of efficiency to tackle the stealth scenarios. There are far too many barriers created through the screwy gameplay that are then placed over the barriers implemented through MGS3's own design choices - it all starts to feel almost overwhelming.

Back when I first played it, I'm sure I went through some similar frustrations, but washed 'em off for the sake of everything else. The hunting mechanic is still really well done and unique, listening to 40 minute codec calls are still almost therapeutic, the writing is solid, the voice-acting is still a good blend of self-seriousness and goofiness, the cutscenes are still grand to watch (though the lip syncing is really poor), the boss battles are still inventive and fun, the soundtrack is still the goddamn MGS3 soundtrack, the ingenuity like the Sorrow & End (among many other things) boss battles are still ingenious (or I'd like to think... haven't actually gotten that far yet), and the story is easily my favourite of the lot. A lot of those specific aspects fortunately still manage to impress.

However, even if the increased dependence on age-old gadgets that have limited battery power, silencers that deteriorate, and your radar being replaced with your own cunning and self-awareness was a massive leap over MGS2's comparatively simple mechanics, those simple mechanics still make for a more satisfying stealth game because I felt like I was on even ground; I didn't often have to fight against a myriad of gameplay goofs alongside the overall increased complexity and resulting difficulty. For MGS3 I feel like I spend half of my playtime downing fake-death pills so I can just restart the whole area - all because of one small mistake leading into complete and utter chaos

Of course this sort of reaction is nothing new; nostalgia is both a loving and deceptive mistress, who likes to keep your memories warm and fuzzy, long hidden from reality. The same reality you are also ill-prepared to face. But.... it's Metal Gear Solid 3! How can this happen to me!? Why must this happen to me?! Is it because I touch myself at night?!?

Honestly, I think MGS3 was ahead of its time. It had the innovation, it had the ideas, it executed on some of those ideas, but didn't have the current tech nor the current mindset that would have really helped it flourish. MGS4 made innumerable incremental improvements, but it still can't top MGS3 as a whole for me for many, many reasons that I can't entirely be bothered getting into. But if MGS3 was to be re-released with MGS4's controls and added improvements, then it could very well match the memories I used to have of MGS3 prior to this horrifying realisation.

It's basically just like The Boss herself said and how everything is dictated by the times. /pseudo-intellectualism

Will I ever even return to MGS3 again? I'm at least still banking on the idea that once I get the 'Snake' camo, everything's going to be alright better, since it consistently stays within around 80% regardless of the terrain. But even still, I'm currently just not having a lot of fun. And again, it's an awful lot of me taking my sweet time tranquillising everyone, only to then have my master plan foiled because peeking your camouflaged head from behind a piece of cover will apparently always destroy any and all attempts to blend in - full stop. I mean seriously, no exceptions? It has to always drain down to a staggering 0%?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: The original Devil May Cry sucks to play now, too. But DMC3 is still as fun and addictive as ever, so it's all good in that department.

#2 Posted by AjayRaz (12440 posts) -

i find it easy to go back to MGS3 but only because i thought the controls were pretty messed up when it came out, and again years later when i actually played through it. sucks to hear that you haven't come back to it in good light though, because i think that game just gets better as it ages. i'm somewhat in the middle of an HD Collection playthrough of MGS3 and i'm still digging it as much as i did when i first played it. probably even more since i kind of have more of an understanding when it comes to general game mechanics.

#3 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@AjayRaz said:

i find it easy to go back to MGS3 but only because i thought the controls were pretty messed up when it came out, and again years later when i actually played through it. sucks to hear that you haven't come back to it in good light though, because i think that game just gets better as it ages. i'm somewhat in the middle of an HD Collection playthrough of MGS3 and i'm still digging it as much as i did when i first played it. probably even more since i kind of have more of an understanding when it comes to general game mechanics.

I envy you with the passion of a thousand suns. I do at least think MGS2 plays well enough, but then I also squeezed that son'bitch completely dry way back when; completed it... countless times. I would quite literally complete it, and then just start right over! I collected all of the dog tags, I would always screw about looking for glitches or testing out gameplay theories... Point is, I think I've played more than enough MGS2 for one lifetime. And it was the substance edition with all the VR stuff (which I also 100%'d..) so none of that is exactly new either.

And Peace Walker I don't even like! @_@ One of the most depressing purchases I've made in a while...

#4 Posted by Pr1mus (3951 posts) -

I have very similar feelings with Half-Life 2. I've replayed it on average once a year since it came out and like it a little bit less every time. Not because it's not new anymore but because every time there's a new detail here, a gameplay mechanic there that bothers me that didn't use to back when it came out. After finishing it again recently i realized that most of my problems with the game are things that were really better than what other games did at the time it came out. It didn't age that well either.

It's also why i don't buy HD collections. Generally i think PS2 era games are in a weird spot where they really aren't fundamentally different than what we have today but are often a first step. These games had to start somewhere and developers have continued to improve on the same formulas. I just feel like PS2 era games are just worst playing and looking versions of the games we have today where as games from the PS1 era or older generations have gameplay that just isn't used anymore. That's where nostalgia comes in for me, replaying something that isn't just old, but actually different and not just more or less the same but worst.

#5 Posted by Jaytow (703 posts) -

I replayed MGS3, through the hd collection, a few months ago and I still love it. Infact I went back through all of the MGS games and loved every one of them.

#6 Posted by Akyho (1677 posts) -

I hadnt finished MG3 on the PS2 because of the camera. So I wanted the substance version with the over the shoulder veiw. Never found it. Completed MG2 substance for the xbox 1 a few months before, Got the HD collection sat down played MG3 completed and couldn't have been shifted. Graphics were good enough controls...well its MGS it wonky get used to it. The story I had always been missing kept me playing I loved it.

The game is just the same game you played on ps2 or such. Just with a HD uplift. It was always like that. It was the story and fun that kept you going.

#7 Posted by IBurningStar (2185 posts) -

I should consider myself lucky then because MGS3 still plays fine to me. Maybe it is because I am use to clunky controls, but to me MGS3 feels and plays like a PS2 game. Which is exactly what it is. Maybe this generation has spoiled us by having improved controls and gamers and game makers have all decided upon universal control schemes (If you pick up a FPS you pretty much already know what every button is going to do) and we have all becomes quite use it it.  I guess one of the biggest advancements this generation was improved controls and character handling.

#8 Edited by GunstarRed (5294 posts) -

During the PS2 era I used to flip-flop back and forth between which game was best (2 or 3), but after playing through 1-3 prior to the release of 4 I decided that I really wasn't fond of a lot of things that game tried to do outside of the story stuff. After about an hour or two into the game I stopped being stealthy (The thing I find most enjoyable about the games) and started running at most encounters and shooting until everyone was dead. I even went out of my way to snipe The End in his wheelchair just so I didn't have to do the snipe hunt, a part I found to be absolutely amazing the very first time I went through it.

I guess by not playing the game properly I have kinda bypassed a bunch of the games issues. When I finally get around to the HD collection I have every intention of going through the game as intended. I really hope I don't end up feeling the same way as this.

#9 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

I wanted to love it when it first came out, but I couldn't. The intial release with the fixed camera just didn't hold up anymore (guess Splinter Cell spoiled it for me, with its proper 3rd person camera controls). Also grew tired of the needless complexity of 'Snake Eating' and spoiling food and such, added nothing but tedium. Never finished the game. Pondering to grab the HD collection to play the overhauled version. Then again, I kinda grown to hate the franchise over time, with a fiery passion. I guess I'll better let it be and hope they'll reboot Metal Gear into something I can appreciate again.

Revengeance certainly looks damn awesome, even if it's got jack shit to do with Metal Gear stealth gameplay.

#10 Posted by Akrid (1356 posts) -

I played it recently, still really enjoyed myself. It plays clunky, but it always did. It almost feels like Monster Hunter in that you have to make very deliberate movements.

The only thing that struck me as aged was the voice acting. It's kind of terrible.

#11 Posted by BraveToaster (12589 posts) -

Clicking on your blog gave me XP for a quest. Thanks, Abyssful... I mean Yummylee.

#12 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@Pr1mus said:

I have very similar feelings with Half-Life 2. I've replayed it on average once a year since it came out and like it a little bit less every time. Not because it's not new anymore but because every time there's a new detail here, a gameplay mechanic there that bothers me that didn't use to back when it came out. After finishing it again recently i realized that most of my problems with the game are things that were really better than what other games did at the time it came out. It didn't age that well either.

It's also why i don't buy HD collections. Generally i think PS2 era games are in a weird spot where they really aren't fundamentally different than what we have today but are often a first step. These games had to start somewhere and developers have continued to improve on the same formulas. I just feel like PS2 era games are just worst playing and looking versions of the games we have today where as games from the PS1 era or older generations have gameplay that just isn't used anymore. That's where nostalgia comes in for me, replaying something that isn't just old, but actually different and not just more or less the same but worst.

It definitely differs. I mean all the God of Wars still play plenty fine, though truth be told the game's have practically played the exact same anyway. If you enjoyed GoW3, chances are you'll still be able to enjoy any other GoW ever - except Chains of Olympus, the weak link of the cast. DMC3 is still totally fantastic as well, even if the original is significantly less so, and DMC2... well, that was shitty even when it was first released so just imagine how terribadful it is now.

But yeah, HD collections are like a means to butchering any fond memories you may have of old ps2 games - in some cases. It's a bit of a gamble to take and see which games you can still find yourself having a lot of fun with after all these years have past.

@IBurningStar said:

I should consider myself lucky then because MGS3 still plays fine to me. Maybe it is because I am use to clunky controls, but to me MGS3 feels and plays like a PS2 game. Which is exactly what it is. Maybe this generation has spoiled us by having improved controls and gamers and game makers have all decided upon universal control schemes (If you pick up a FPS you pretty much already know what every button is going to do) and we have all becomes quite use it it. I guess one of the biggest advancements this generation was improved controls and character handling.

What's completely illogical is that I can still whimsically play through any of the old Resident Evil games - bar the very first, which.. man, fucking hunters and their temporary invulnerability when they leap through the air.

The clunkiest of the clunk, but then RE games are significantly less complex and easier to grasp than a MGS game - MGS3 in particular of course. Plus I've also spent an unhealthy amount of time with RE2/RE3 so I've pretty much got both of the entire games tattooed onto my brain.

@GunstarRed said:

During the PS2 era I used to flip-flop back and forth between which game was best (2 or 3), but after playing through 1-3 prior to the release of 4 I decided that I really wasn't fond of a lot of things that game tried to do outside of the story stuff. After about an hour or two into the game I stopped being stealthy (The thing I find most enjoyable about the games) and started running at most encounters and shooting until everyone was dead. I even went out of my way to snipe The End in his wheelchair just so I didn't have to do the snipe hunt, a part I found to be absolutely amazing the very first time I went through it.

I guess by not playing the game properly I have kinda bypassed a bunch of the games issues. When I finally get around to the HD collection I have every intention of going through the game as intended. I really hope I don't end up feeling the same way as this.

Oh, God, I could never play through it like that! But it's very possible, and it's also significantly much easier as well depressingly enough... Though like I said in my blog, I don't want to play it like that; I want to get the same stealth gameplay experience that I remember. If I can't play it stealthily, then in my mind there's no reason in playing it at all.

@Akrid said:

I played it recently, still really enjoyed myself. It plays clunky, but it always did. It almost feels like Monster Hunter in that you have to make very deliberate movements.

The only thing that struck me as aged was the voice acting. It's kind of terrible.

Terrible seems a tad harsh. It's definitely a lot campier than I recalled (Sokolov and his 'lllllluver'...), and The Boss' performance isn't as good as I recalled either. Neither is Major Zero's; actually, yeah, I would go as far as to say Major Zero's is veering into 'terrible' territory. But of course Hayter pulls another great Snake performance, and characters like Volgin, EVA, and Ocelot are still plenty good.

@BraveToaster said:

Clicking on your blog gave me XP for a quest. Thanks, Abyssful... I mean Yummylee.

Na problem.

#13 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11909 posts) -

I played Snake Eater like two years ago, but I really didn't take much issue from it other than the part where it was still totally a fairly clunky rather punishing stealth game in between all those amazing cutscenes where ocelot meows like a cat and shoots a bunch of bees. However, that's probably because I played it in 2010 and was thus expecting something of that nature. Maybe it's for that reason, that the gameplay is something to be tolerated rather than enjoyed, that I don't have a problem. You still run around and inevitably spend the entire time popping dudes in the head with tranq darts while hidden in the grass, wondering why half these camoflauges are in your inventory at all when you inevitably will only use like 4.

Regardless, 2 is still the better game for me, not because of the way it plays, but because of its batshit insane meta meta storyline that works on multiple levels. The actual gameplay is probably worse, since a lot of it involves running around and disarming bombs or swimming in a terrible underwater sequence and so on and so forth. At least Snake Eater has parts that resemble actual set pieces.

#14 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

It's inda clunky, but i think it is infuriating, it's kinda hard to grasp at the beggining, but it's pretty cool. It's the only Metal Gear that i like.

#15 Posted by SASnake (349 posts) -

@Yummylee said:

Why! Why must the times be so cruel! And I'm not referring to the stupid silly delay the MGS HD collection underwent (which was still silly stupid), but for how my own tolerance for video games must move forward so fast. To put it bluntly, I don't think MGS3 has aged well at all. And it's killing me inside with a serrated blade... dipped in poison, while on fire, and I'm being force-fed laxatives giving me violent diarrhoea in the process.

MGS3 was one of my favourite games on the ps2; hell, it may well be one of my favourite games of all time. But after playing through it very recently, it comes across as unapologetically clunky and cumbersome. The shooting controls are hard to adapt to after so many improvements made across the years, not being able to move while crouching is pure insanity, and the camo and how it'll quickly dart down to 30% just as your elbow touches a speck of a different texture causing you to be spotted from a guy 50 miles away is ever so frustrating. To be fair, I remember that it all gets much easier to bear once I unlocked the ''Snake'' camo for beating down The Boss' stamina gauge, but I'm still going to have to complete the game to get to that point.

What also strikes me as dated, even by the game's original release standards, was how you couldn't just drop grenades when you're trying to escape from American accented Russians. So you're spotted right, and you'd imagine you could just drop a stun grenade on your current position and POOF like Batman or some shit. But instead, Snake has to pause on the spot and then do a small underarm throw; even when you're in the midst of running away, he'll stop on the fucking spot just to then girly-throw a grenade--seriously, Snake has a really poor throwing arm even when you hold the button in! What's crazy is that you could totally utilise such a tactic in the very first MGS! I can distinctly remember doing as such when I'm running up/down the towers before the Hind-D boss battle, with all of the gun-cameras scattered about.

The way the controls reverse or go completely sideways when you're up against a wall and attempt to move the camera around, forcing you to either accidentally get off the wall, or begin to shimmy, or even fall off if you're shimmying against a cliff-side or something is another bullet-point to add to my ever increasing rage! The way you're not able to maybe look down off the edge of a small hilltop or hill that you're crawling across, or drop a grenade on the guy who may be right below you is an another example.

And it's not like the game is too difficult or anything; it's just that we all want to play stealth games right. We don't want to get spotted and then be forced into some clunky shooting scenarios, especially since when you're in alert status, your camo stands for shit all. I mean even if you're out of sight but the alert phase is going, they will still know exactly where you are regardless of whether your camo index hits -9000% or 95%.

Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with me being impatient or lacking the focus to meticulously crawl everywhere. But there's a lot of overt clunkiness across every facet of the stealth gameplay that it often comes down to you being spotted because of the game's own clumsy mechanics. It's commendable that the game has such complex potential within, and MGS3 definitely made a heap of impressive improvements to its own formula, but the gameplay elements aren't able to match the complexity and give you the right amount of efficiency to tackle the stealth scenarios. There are far too many barriers created through the screwy gameplay that are then placed over the barriers implemented through MGS3's own design choices - it all starts to feel almost overwhelming.

Back when I first played it, I'm sure I went through some similar frustrations, but washed 'em off for the sake of everything else. The hunting mechanic is still really well done and unique, listening to 40 minute codec calls are still almost therapeutic, the writing is solid, the voice-acting is still a good blend of self-seriousness and goofiness, the cutscenes are still grand to watch (though the lip syncing is really poor), the boss battles are still inventive and fun, the soundtrack is still the goddamn MGS3 soundtrack, the ingenuity like the Sorrow & End (among many other things) boss battles are still ingenious (or I'd like to think... haven't actually gotten that far yet), and the story is easily my favourite of the lot. A lot of those specific aspects fortunately still manage to impress.

However, even if the increased dependence on age-old gadgets that have limited battery power, silencers that deteriorate, and your radar being replaced with your own cunning and self-awareness was a massive leap over MGS2's comparatively simple mechanics, those simple mechanics still make for a more satisfying stealth game because I felt like I was on even ground; I didn't often have to fight against a myriad of gameplay goofs alongside the overall increased complexity and resulting difficulty. For MGS3 I feel like I spend half of my playtime downing fake-death pills so I can just restart the whole area - all because of one small mistake leading into complete and utter chaos

Of course this sort of reaction is nothing new; nostalgia is both a loving and deceptive mistress, who likes to keep your memories warm and fuzzy, long hidden from reality. The same reality you are also ill-prepared to face. But.... it's Metal Gear Solid 3! How can this happen to me!? Why must this happen to me?! Is it because I touch myself at night?!?

Honestly, I think MGS3 was ahead of its time. It had the innovation, it had the ideas, it executed on some of those ideas, but didn't have the current tech nor the current mindset that would of really helped it flourish. MGS4 made innumerable incremental improvements, but it still can't top MGS3 as a whole for me for many, many reasons that I can't entirely be bothered getting into. But if MGS3 was to be re-released with MGS4's controls and added improvements, then it could very well match the memories I used to have of MGS3 prior to this horrifying realisation.

It's basically just like The Boss herself said and how everything is dictated by the times. /pseudo-intellectualism

Will I ever even return to MGS3 again? I'm at least still banking on the idea that once I get the 'Snake' camo, everything's going to be alright better, since it consistently stays within around 80% regardless of the terrain. But even still, I'm currently just not having a lot of fun. And again, it's an awful lot of me taking my sweet time tranquillising everyone, only to then have my master plan foiled because peeking your camouflaged head from behind a piece of cover will apparently always destroy any and all attempts to blend in - full stop. I mean seriously, no exceptions? It has to always drain down to a staggering 0%?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: The original Devil May Cry sucks to play now, too. But DMC3 is still as fun and addictive as ever, so it's all good in that department.

wait....you want to drop a STUN grenade at your feet?......

#16 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1786 posts) -

None of the MGS games have aged particularly well (not even 4, really). At the very least, people have gotten better at making control schemes.

#17 Posted by Guided_By_Tigers (8061 posts) -

The controls are hard to get used to, but once I finally got them down I enjoyed the game a lot (and MGS2 as well)......call me crazy but I like the controls, they're unique and fit the game well.....MGS is probably my favorite series of all time as well.

#18 Edited by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@ArbitraryWater said:

I played Snake Eater like two years ago, but I really didn't take much issue from it other than the part where it was still totally a fairly clunky rather punishing stealth game in between all those amazing cutscenes where ocelot meows like a cat and shoots a bunch of bees. However, that's probably because I played it in 2010 and was thus expecting something of that nature. Maybe it's for that reason, that the gameplay is something to be tolerated rather than enjoyed, that I don't have a problem. You still run around and inevitably spend the entire time popping dudes in the head with tranq darts while hidden in the grass, wondering why half these camoflauges are in your inventory at all when you inevitably will only use like 4.

Regardless, 2 is still the better game for me, not because of the way it plays, but because of its batshit insane meta meta storyline that works on multiple levels. The actual gameplay is probably worse, since a lot of it involves running around and disarming bombs or swimming in a terrible underwater sequence and so on and so forth. At least Snake Eater has parts that resemble actual set pieces.

I think I may have even played it again back in 2010! I don't know what it is about where games are currently at that I'm having so much difficulty, though. MGS2 I think has smoother and more accessible gameplay overall, but yeah, it doesn't have quite as many fanciful set-pieces like The End/The Sorrow Boss battles. Fighting against the Rays was awesome, though, as was pairing up with Snake and shooting up a bloody nation of ninjitsu commandos - as well as running into Snake enough until he gets pissed off and does a roundhouse kick, or shooting him and then running away giggling like a twit.

@MikeGosot said:

It's inda clunky, but i think it is infuriating, it's kinda hard to grasp at the beggining, but it's pretty cool. It's the only Metal Gear that i like.

lol wut

@SASnake: Yeah... y'know, drop it, then roll away and continue onward whilst the Amerissians behind me get caught in the blast. Instead of both slowly & awkwardly hurling it a little ways away.

#19 Posted by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@Unknown_Pleasures said:

The controls are hard to get used to, but once I finally got them down I enjoyed the game a lot (and MGS2 as well)......call me crazy but I like the controls, they're unique and fit the game well.....MGS is probably my favorite series of all time as well.

You're crazy.

#20 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@ArbitraryWater:

Never quite got the big idea behind camouflages. Much like the whole 'eating' aspect of MGS 3, it's complexity which adds 'empty' button presses, but brings no actual gameplay depth to the table. A little bit of tedium is like the salt in a meal, but really - there was more than enough tedium in MGS before we had to chose matching camos and eat snakes. Oh well - MGS lost me a long time ago. I guess it's time to come to terms with that - as much as I wish it wasn't so.

#21 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -
@Yummylee: Oh fuck DAT TYPO! I think it isn't infuriating. Just hard to grasp at the beggining.
#22 Posted by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@ArbitraryWater:

Never quite got the big idea behind camouflages. Much like the whole 'eating' aspect of MGS 3, it's complexity which adds 'empty' button presses, but brings no actual gameplay depth to the table. A little bit of tedium is like the salt in a meal, but really - there was more than enough tedium in MGS before we had to chose matching camos and eat snakes. Oh well - MGS lost me a long time ago. I guess it's time to get to terms with that - as much as I wish it wasn't so.

Camo was definitely a messy affair in MGS3, but MGS4 and the octo-camo was a significant improvement the way it would automatically adapt to whatever surroundings you're crawling/wall hugging against. It ostensibly left you with just the one camo outfit; no more constantly switching back & forth into and out of your menu changing camo uniforms when you're crawling across terrain that has so many colours it's like a rainbow covered in dirt.

#23 Posted by MooseyMcMan (11292 posts) -

I've thought for a while (since MGS4 came out) that the pre-MGS4 controls were horribly outdated and, to be frank, bad.

But I played them before MGS4, so no harm done. There's a reason why I avoided the HD re-release of those games. I knew they would be...not as good as they once were.

Moderator
#24 Posted by Yummylee (22041 posts) -

@MooseyMcMan said:

I've thought for a while (since MGS4 came out) that the pre-MGS4 controls were horribly outdated and, to be frank, bad.

But I played them before MGS4, so no harm done. There's a reason why I avoided the HD re-release of those games. I knew they would be...not as good as they once were.

I unfortunately never set my expectations appropriately. I mean I knew that, ''Hey, these games are pretty old'', but with the amount of time I put into MGS3 across the years (completed it maybe 6 times), I figured that the erosion of time wouldn't have been so tough to come to terms with. If anything I was more so excited since I had never played the Subsistence edition with the improved camera before.

I still haven't head back and I'm not entirely sure if I ever will. I can always tell myself that I was at least making an added donation for all of the wondrous times I had with both MGS2 and MGS3 way back when. Plus this was probably the only opportunity I'd give myself to try out Peace Walker - even though it turns out I don't like it very much, I'm glad I've finally given it a chance.

#25 Posted by MooseyMcMan (11292 posts) -

@Yummylee: You never even played with the new camera? Man... I only played the Subsistence version (I didn't have a PS2, so I bought a used copy after I got my PS3). Even then I thought the controls were kinda clunky.

And I'm surprised you don't like Peace Walker. I haven't play the "HD" version, but my thought after playing the PSP version was that if it had been a console game with dual analog controls, it would have been my favorite of the series. I really liked the base building stuff, and liked the shorter length missions. I'd say it's the most concise of the MGS games (which is to say it's only moderately long-winded). It felt like a nice change of pace to not have hour and a half long cut-scenes.

Moderator
#26 Posted by ToTheNines (752 posts) -

To put it frankly, I never ever played a metal gear game for the gameplays sake.. well, Metal Gear Solid maybe. Cause it was sorta inovative at it's time.

#27 Posted by DoctorDanger99 (686 posts) -

yeah. it sounds like you just let nostalga get to you. i still love the game and its as close to perfect as a game can get.

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