@mooseymcman: Interesting, but it doesn't specifically mention the coma.

@-cipher-: That's because this is pre-coma. That's the point I was trying to make. Kojima retconned out the part where it was during the coma that the clones were made.

@mooseymcman: If this is so, then it seems likely the clones might make an appearance in PP, more specifically Liquid and Solidus.

@-cipher-: If the Eli kid in the E3 trailer isn't Liquid, I will eat my hat.*

*I do not have a hat.**

**That's a lie, I own several hats.

@mooseymcman: Exactly! I believe Eli is liquid. But not for reasons like "He has an 'li' on the end of his name", but for other reasons like the timeframe, location and appearance.

I think it was done appropriately to indicate the dark tone that was going to be taken. No point lying about it, military troops have done some horrific things already with prisoners in real life that aren't sanctioned or orthodox. It's a tough topic to tackle but it's totally in line with the sort of 'anti-military' theme Metal Gear games gun with.

It does set Skull Face up as a horrific monster but again I don't think it's entirely inappropriate given the specific situation Chico and Paz were in. If they'd played like a tape of IT happening then sure I'd say that would be unnecessary and absolutely not ok but they left it implied and off-camera so they have some degree of sense.

Also regarding the existence of the tapes, some were legitimate recordings by Chico to warn Big Boss and detail his infiltration. The rest, I believe it's revealed in another tape, were made by Skull Face for Chico to listen to in order to remind him of what he did and what happened in the torture sessions.

People seem to be forgetting that the rapes and implanting the bombs were only on cassette tapes. They weren't actually shown in the game and it's not the first time a video game, movie tv show or book has had implied rape or implied torture in it. Is it dark? Yes. Is it disgusting and graphic? Hell yes! But it was never shown and therefore technically not "in" the game.

Personally I LOVE how dark this game is. It shows Kojima has the balls to pull off these kinds of stories, and if you are so sensitive,that seems more like a personal issue. It's a reminder to the player that in war there really ar no rules, no safe words, and no time outs. War is hell, and MSG5 takes now prisoners when driving that point home. I applaud Kojima for that.

Finally played this and god-damn, that was pretty fucked up. I'm all for gratuitous violence in videogames and I still disagree with people thinking this is a social issue or misogynistic or whatever but that went really dark. Having them show Paz being cut open like that was bad enough but then for it to all be for nothing made it seem like they're just trying to be edgy for the sake of it.

Still a fun game and I'll probably go back to do all the side stuff... though maybe skip the cut-scenes this time.

if you have to ask is it too far,my answer is no and its alot worse in movies.we still have alot of room to get darker.this is dark,but its not close to alot of other mediums.people need to realize that the more accepted games get the darker games will be,because they will be able to put darker stuff in the games like movies and books have.in fact its already happening.look at hatred,its probably one of the darkest games ever based off the trailers we have seen.i got news for everyone as well,its going to get ALOT worse.for my taste im not offended by anything and i like dark stuff.so the closer it gets to movies and books,the happier i will be.

@bossodio:

So how does that work with the goofy MGS tone and the cardboard boxes with a bikini girl cutout taped to them?

I mean, MGS always had some willing tonal whiplash built in, but Ground Zeroes broke for me because of it. I just couldn't go from the dark story beats to running the goofy alternate scenarios. It basically turned me off from the full game and I'm now on hold to see what's in there.

War is hell. When you sugarcoat war games it makes people think war isn't as bad as it really is.

@gorkamorkaorka: This is like a whole other level though. It is one thing to make war look like hell, but this....this doesn't even have anything to do with war. It is some villain named Skullface trying to be as evil as possible for no reason.

@lettuceman44: We don't know that yet. We have very little info on Skullface right now. Saying he has no motivation for his actions is pretty presumptive at this point.

@demoskinos: I agree. Knowing Metal Gear, I'm sure The Phantom Pain will explain this new villain's motivations at great length. Of course, it will be a bunch of idiotic, nonsensical gobbledygook that will defy all logic and suspension of disbelief, but there will surely be something.

@chrissedoff: Right. Like this is Kojima we're talking about even if the reasoning for whatever it is absolutely insane you can be assured he will address it in excruciating detail most times.

Like fucking 16! At least she was 14 in Peacewalker I'm pretty sure.

No, she's in her 20s. She only looks in her teens, which is part of why she was chosen to be a double agent. Made her seem more innocent(though she was in noway innocent). Chico is actually young, though.

I still think people overreacted to this. Don't get me wrong, it's horrific, but I don't necessarily think it was a bad thing to put in the game. It laid the stakes out very clearly, and showed more the type of tone and story it was going for. I personally find it more offensive that people feel that only certain storytellers are allowed to tell certain kind of stories, and any others that try should be chastised. You can't limit creativity like that. It also bothers me because Ground Zeroes is only the prologue for a game. We have barely any story payoff for the things it sets up. Who knows how any of this will play out in MGSV? Yes, it was a super dark moment, but I felt it was done with purpose. It's not like it's friggin' Human Centipede or Serbian Film. People claim those are artistic expressions moreso than Metal Gear, and they are a bajillion times more graphic.

@onefreeman: No she (Peacewalker spoilers-->) was posing as a 16 year old in Peacewalker. But she was born in 1950 which makes her 25 during the events of Ground Zeroes.

@neocalypso: The weird thing is that you can see her in her underwear in the very beginning of Peace Walker, when you still think she's 16. I didn't play much more than that, so I was left thinking, "what the fuck, Kojima..."

Finished Ground Zeroes a number of times over the past couple weeks and they indeed specifically say she was merely posing as a 16-year-old. I caught it my first time through; it's pretty clear.

As for the question posed in this thread? No. The part Kojima messed up was the writing, because it was lame, but then again it's nothing more or less than I'd expect from a MGS game. On the plus side, though, Kiefer's "Snake" was actually a legit badass and wasn't a total wuss like the Big Boss in Snake Eater.

I think it would be fine and all if it wasn't pulled off with the subtlety of a semi truck.

I'm all for artistic freedoms and yadda yadda but when you attempt to represent something so disturbing you have to do it pretty gracefully, which is not something Kojima seems particularly good at, especially nowadays. So while the subject matter is not necessarily unwelcome in games, I think Ground Zeroes is a prime example of how easily it can be portrayed in bad taste.

In fact, I think Jeremy Parish said it best in his article for US Gamer. Even watching Metal Gear Scanlon puts the older games into stark contrast with the new ones - whereas back then Kojima was able to somewhat deftly (most of the time) imply grotesque situations and have them not feel incongruous with the inherent goofiness, nowadays he seems to want to exhibit every last gritty detail, and that's where the disconnect comes in.

I think it is very dark but let games go where other mediums do. People pretty much don't bat an eyelash at Tarantino anymore and look at like the rape in Pulp Fiction and Kill Bill.

Can't remember if I posted in this thread the first time around, but I'm all for it. Kojima is one of the few devs in AAA space who consistently tries to push boundaries. I don't care what those boundaries are and I don't care how hamfisted his attempts end up being, I just want him to keep pushing.

I'm with you on that. If anything more games aren't going far enough with their subject matter. The best part is that Kojima actually manages to make you feel deeply unsettled without using a single piece of gratuitous imagery.

Sorry to revitalise an old thread (MGSV: TPP spoilers ahead) but the imagery in the cutscene when you find Paz in the medical platform is pretty fuckin gross

@captain_insano: yeah it's way worse now!

@captain_insano: Not quite sure what you mean. Nothing stood out to me.

@demoskinos: Implying that Paz has a bomb stuck up in her vagina is one thing. "It's in my..., in my...", but showing Miller chucking on a glove and jamming his hand up there was pretty full on. And I've seen my son get born! I don't expect to see that type of stuff in a video game I suppose