Anyone else lost respect for Kojima after the MGSV reveal?

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#1 Posted by PandaBear (1384 posts) -

So I should start by saying I consider myself a big Metal Gear Solid fan, it's my favourite series and I'd include MGS2 and 3 in my top 10 all-time favourite games. I think that MGS 4 dropped the ball a lot story-wise, but I loved the actual gameplay. But I digress. This whole campaign leading up to the Metal Gear Solid V reveal (both The Phantom Pain and Ground Zeroes) has been a mix of bizarre and out right stupid.

I feel like the whole Moby Dick Studios "viral marketing" has been alienating at best. For starters I think really good viral marketing like the I LOVE BEES for Halo 2 or the Year Zero campaign for Nine Inch Nail's album are examples of this type of hype building done right... but this was pointless. What the hell did a fake European developer add to the game exactly? The fact it was a Metal Gear game was figured out pretty quickly, it adds nothing to the actual game world, nobody was fooled and did anyone find it even remotely entertaining? I doubt it. What a waste of time.

And the letting go of David Hayter is bullshit. So Kojima said to Geoff Keighly the series needs a fresh start, but he's fine using the same Japanese voice actor in his home country? So they don't need a fresh start there? The stories of the games are so over-the-top I think a voice actor who knows how to act more comic book-like than movie-like is a huge plus for the series. And using Hayter in the Ground Zeroes reveal just feels gross now - Kojima will use him to build fan hype then forget to tell him he's not needed for the actual game? What a coward. Seriously, Hayter not finding out from Kojima proves what a gutless man he really is. That sounds harsh, but seriously, grow some balls and tell the guy you need to go in a new direction. Nobody should find out they're fired via Twitter.

I never thought Kojima was flawless as a person or a developer (and he's deeply flawed as a writer), but this is a slap in the face to both fans and a man who has been nothing but supportive of the series. I mean Hayter wrote the first two X-Men movies (ie the good ones) and was spitting out some garbage lines at various points in the Metal Gear series. Get him in the writers room! But when did he ever say a bad word about Kojima's skills? He has always been enthusiastic about the whole series and has displayed a genuine affection for the series that goes beyond what a normal voice actor would do.

I'm not going to call for a boycott or anything, I mean I really want to play both Ground Zeroes and The Phantom Pain, but I feel like a creator who I once respected has been revealed to be more of an egotistical prima donna than an eccentric visionary. Yeah he's human, but does he even know what fans want anymore? I felt he was losing his grip at the end of MGS4 (to be fair Peace Walker was excellent) and this is just makes me think the future of Metal Gear Solid may not be what I want it to be...

tl;dr Kojima's ego has taken over fully and I don't know I personally like what's happening

(hopefully this is all an elaborate ruse and Hayter comes back...)

#2 Posted by ThunderSlash (1960 posts) -

I agree with a lot of what you said but:

did anyone find it even remotely entertaining?

These might answer your question.

#3 Edited by MEATBALL (3490 posts) -

Nope, I thought that stuff was pretty damn fun. If you've "lost respect" for Kojima and are angry about Hayter etc. you care about this stuff waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

#4 Edited by Quarters (1879 posts) -

I greatly enjoyed all of it, and I'm excited about seeing more of the game. Reminds me of the MGS2 days where things got crazy. Man, those days were awesome.

Also, he didn't find out he was fired over Twitter. He said that he talked to a voice over person over lunch a while back.

#5 Edited by Chibithor (573 posts) -

How do you fire someone who's not employed by you? They could've let him know he won't be needed anymore, sure, but getting fired is a different matter entirely.

I don't really know how anyone turns from visionary to egotistical douche (that's a fine line between them though) thanks to a marketing campaign and not letting someone know they won't be voicing a character in their next games. I get that Hayter's iconic in MGS but I don't think it's on Kojima to personally go and give him a heads-up. Unless they're friends or something

#6 Edited by Village_Guy (2665 posts) -

No, it is his creation, so I don't get why he shouldn't be allowed do with it what he wants.

#7 Edited by TruthTellah (9475 posts) -

Of course not. That's silly. He did a fun, kinda stupid run up to revealing a game. That's better than most studios do. And Hayter? He didn't just get fired online. It's not like they ended his contract in a tweet. They just didn't decide to have him in the newest game. Sure, a call would have been nice, but they don't have to do that. And that isn't part of Kojima's job. So, while you are correct in stating that he is far from perfect, the campaign and their decision to go with someone else for a major part in a game are hardly reasons to dislike or lose respect for anyone.

#8 Posted by FLStyle (4923 posts) -

@pandabear: I'm a Metal Gear Solid fan and all I see is a fanboy rant.

#9 Posted by SamStrife (1286 posts) -

I'm at work so I can't explain in great detail but basically...yeah.

I think this whole MGS5 things has been handled so badly that even as a huge Metal Gear fan (I really, really love all the games), it's just been a massive bummer.

Everything seems to have been handled so badly that I'm left with the impression that no-one (including Kojima) actually knows what the hell is happening at this point.

#10 Posted by Raven10 (1924 posts) -

Kojima has been trolling fans for years with ridiculous marketing ploys. Yea this Moby Dick Studios thing was pretty obvious, but it did its job, right? People talked about the game without the need of expensive advertising. If, as a company, I can promote a product that cheaply I am going to do so. It probably cost them no more than $500 to set up that whole ruse. Compare that to the thousands they could have spent putting banners on websites or the millions they could have spent putting out TV commercials, and it seems like a really smart idea to me.

As for Hayter, I thought he was way too over the top as Big Boss in both MGS3 and Peace Walker. I'm actually kind of glad they are going with someone new. I agree that it would have been nice to give the man a head's up, but I don't think it makes Kojima a bad person or designer for not personally telling him.

#11 Posted by BlatantNinja23 (928 posts) -

Nope. I love everything that;s surrounding these two games, and I don't really care for hayter. I'd rather use the Japanese voices with english subs anyways.

#12 Edited by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -

@raven10 said:

People talked about the game without the need of expensive advertising. If, as a company, I can promote a product that cheaply I am going to do so. It probably cost them no more than $500 to set up that whole ruse.

Whaaaat? If you can get a custom face mask, Geoff Keighley's time, a set, a bunch of cameras, lights, a crew, an editor, a trailer at the Spike VGAs and a GDC panel for $500 you'd be the greatest producer of our time. Or in the mafia. I would add about four zeroes to that number.

#13 Posted by Benny (1955 posts) -

How did you feel about the Raiden reveal in MGS2?

#14 Posted by Nightriff (5361 posts) -

NOOOOOOOOOOOOPE, loved all of it and Kojima can do whatever the fuck he wants

#15 Edited by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

@mikkaq said:

@raven10 said:

People talked about the game without the need of expensive advertising. If, as a company, I can promote a product that cheaply I am going to do so. It probably cost them no more than $500 to set up that whole ruse.

Whaaaat? If you can get a custom face mask, Geoff Keighley's time, a set, a bunch of cameras, lights, a crew, an editor, a trailer at the Spike VGAs and a GDC panel for $500 you'd be the greatest producer of our time. Or in the mafia.

Geoff Keighley is CGI, so his time costs only the power of a nine volt battery to run the laptop ( nicknamed thunderRoad ) developed by three kids. This also might have been the plot of a movie i saw once, i dont know.

#16 Posted by obcdexter (654 posts) -

I didn't care much for the viral marketing "campaign" (that does stretch it quite a bit, doesn't it), but it sure did work. It wasn't remarkably clever or anything but got a lot of people talking and go out their ways for a little bit to piece things together.
The whole issue with Hayter ... Man, I really love that guy as Snake, but then again: Big Boss is getting older and older now, he'll eventually have to make a transition voice-wise. Hayter was really reaching a point of bordering caricature as old Snake in MGS4. The decision itself (if all the talks turn out to be indeed the truth) is one I can understand fully looking at it from Kojima's perspective.
Which would leave us with the creator's approach to break the news to the man ... Don't really want to judge, I guess? I know these guys are/were pretty close. However, deciding on voice actors for your new game shouldn't have to include comforting those of your earlier works if you don't want to use them. It's not like Hayter once signed a lifetime contract or something. Could've definitely been handled smoother by Kojima, especially if they really consider themselves friends. But that's sure as hell going into territories so private I don't even want to have an opinion about it. I don't always treat my friends with all the respect they deserve - most of the times without noticing it. :/

#17 Posted by NoobSauceG7 (1254 posts) -

I gained respect if anything. These kind of crazy announcements are awesome and are part of why I love Kojima. Also we can't really say Hayter was "fired" since it wasn't like he had that spot already for this specific game. Maybe this is all part of another ruse with the announcement of the game, but it is Kojima's vision and I want to be a part of the ride.

#18 Posted by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -

@dagbiker said:

@mikkaq said:

@raven10 said:

People talked about the game without the need of expensive advertising. If, as a company, I can promote a product that cheaply I am going to do so. It probably cost them no more than $500 to set up that whole ruse.

Whaaaat? If you can get a custom face mask, Geoff Keighley's time, a set, a bunch of cameras, lights, a crew, an editor, a trailer at the Spike VGAs and a GDC panel for $500 you'd be the greatest producer of our time. Or in the mafia.

Geoff Keighley is CGI, so his time costs only the power of a nine volt battery to run the laptop ( nicknamed thunderRoad ) developed by three kids. This also might have been the plot of a movie i saw once, i dont know.

That's a pretty power efficient laptop, good job Neo-Geoff Keighley.

#19 Posted by Yummylee (22570 posts) -

lol the fact that Kojima has managed to dupe so many people into believing Hayter's been completely shafted from the MGS series alone deserves the utmost respect.

#20 Edited by oldenglishC (1008 posts) -

It had the exact opposite effect on me. All this Joakim CG-face, exploding space whale, glorious nonsense has finally made me move my copies of 2-4 to the top of the "I should probably play these" pile.

#21 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3507 posts) -

My respect only grows. Loved MGS since PS1 but losing Hayter seems to barely matter unless the new guy sucks. MG is way bigger than 1 voice. I find it hard to believe you respected Kojima if *this* is the straw that broke the camel's back.

#22 Posted by Abendlaender (2889 posts) -

I'm kinda glad to see that Hideo is still hideoing but I was pretty disappointed that Phantom Pain was exactly what everybody thought it was. That was pretty boring. It would have been awesome if he just said "Nope, that's a totally different game, no connections to Metal Gear and Moby Dick is a real studio. In fact, I have nothing to do with this, so stop asking. Cheers" End of story.

#23 Posted by IIGrayFoxII (305 posts) -

@pandabear: I generally agree with you, but never took the Moby Dick angle too seriously. The thing that I don't like about the MGS reveal is that he spent all that effort in MGS4 to wrap the series plot threads and characters, just to jump into MGS V with all the old characters returning and continuing on this very "tired" plot thread. We know the history of Big Boss and his clones and if any series needs it's own reboot, it is this series. Then I would be fine with David Hayter not returning if indeed the series rebooted. Though it is rumored that he makes some sort of cameo as Solid Snake in this game.

#24 Posted by I_Stay_Puft (3817 posts) -

You don't know the behind the scene scenario with these type of stories. Maybe there was a dispute in the contracts or pay with David Hayter? Yeah the viral stuff sucked but it worked and got people bringing in their inner Sherlock. Maybe its true that he wants to go in a different direction and that's the reason he decided to axe Hayter, I'd rather just wait for the final product before making a decision.

#25 Posted by awesomeusername (4218 posts) -

You're a panda bear, therefore, your animal opinion DOES NOT COUNT.

#26 Posted by Ramone (2976 posts) -

When has MGS NOT been about Kojima and his complete and utter insanity.

#27 Posted by probablytuna (3824 posts) -

@pandabear said:

And using Hayter in the Ground Zeroes reveal just feels gross now

Wait, when was David Hayter used for the Ground Zeroes reveal?

#28 Posted by ProfessorEss (7523 posts) -

Not really. I've always had a fairly moderate level of respect for him in the first place so I'm guessing my expectations are very different than the expectations of his hardcore fans.

Kojima's ego has taken over fully and I don't know I personally like what's happening

I have deep respect for his passion and the risks he takes but I feel like his ego (for better and/or for worse) has always been a big part of the Metal Gear Solid series.

#29 Posted by mrfluke (5347 posts) -

nope, still on board with mgs 5.

Hayter not being on board, eh, if it was a solid snake game then i would be mad, but considering its a big boss game and they changed his voice in mgs 4, im good with a different voice.

besides, im fully expecting a solid snake cameo at the end of this game post credits with hayter voicing him.

#30 Posted by WalkerTR77 (1390 posts) -

I think losing Hayter is a good new direction to take since he's descended into a parody of himself. The growling has just become silly at this point.

#31 Edited by MildMolasses (3229 posts) -

@benny said:

How did you feel about the Raiden reveal in MGS2?

That was my favourite part!That said, I think the whole Moby Dick Studios thing was stupid, but that's because I find Kojima to have a very high level of pretention to him and for his games to be way up their own ass.

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#32 Posted by TheFantasticFillip (26 posts) -

Kojima never intended too fool anyone with the Phantom Pain. He said the only thing that surprised him and his team was that the internet figured out "Metal Gear Solid V" so quickly in the negative space of the words. If anything, the whole thing made me gain respect for him. Videogames have become so sterile; in a day and age where every trailer, commercial, banner on a website, and interview has so much research behind it that it becomes plain and boring, Kojima just said 'fuck it' and did what he wanted to do. He knows his fan-base; if you like Metal Gear up to this point, then you probably like solving conspiracies. I thought it was a lot of fun going through several forums looking for clues behind the trailer and hints as to what the plot of the game could be.

The man created a fake Sweedish game company, hired an actor to talk to Geoff Keighly while dressed in bandages, and crafted a ridiculous mask to wear on-stage at GDC, when he would reveal what everyone already knew. It got people talking, but if you think he was at all self-serious during this entire charade, then I don't think you know Kojima very well.

As far as Hayter goes, I sincerely doubt that he is really gone. Hayter seems to be playing along with all this, for example, he posted a long-winded melodramatic good-bye to Metal Gear and signed the date: April 1st. Why would you sign a date on a tweet unless you wanted to point out it was April Fool's day?

Also, the 'new direction' comment is a red herring. A new direction for a new audience? I have a friend playing through the series right now and he is up to three. If he watched the trailer, he would have no god damn idea, contextually, what was going on. The trailer references MGS3, MGS1, and PW alone in 5 minutes. For a 'new direction' with a 'new Snake', it is clearly not a stand alone experience.

In conclusion, I think the song in the trailer puts it best: every thing's a lie. A major aspect of this game seems to be that you shouldn't trust anything; things are not as they appear to be (song used in the trailer was deliberate, Big Boss is having repeated hallucinations, MSF going down in a 'trojan horse' operation where XOF acted like UN inspectors, etc...). In that aspect, I think that the marketing ties into the game thematically extremely well. Not to mention it's fun.

Besides, we're talking about a man who didn't let anyone know Snake wasn't the main character in MGS2 until the game shipped. Why would you trust him in the first place?

#33 Edited by Scroll (602 posts) -

Hasn't Kojima always been pretty ambitious and crazy? The marketing for his games has always been a bit out there. I'm happy to be along for the ride.

#34 Posted by Pr1mus (3950 posts) -

And the award for overreaction of the day goes to...

#35 Posted by Humanity (10111 posts) -

I like Hayter but nope. Maybe it's a bit dick to hire a new english actor while the Japanese one stays the same but whatever.

I mean really, the bottomline here is "whatever"

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#36 Edited by lebkin (331 posts) -

We're talking about a developer that trolled the entire game industry by changing main characters in Metal Gear Solid 2. Why? Because he could. Kojima has always been out-of-control crazy, with a large disregard for what fans and critics alike think of his work. Expecting different now is unreasonable.

#37 Edited by MonkeyKing1969 (3038 posts) -

Its not about respect, it is about the job you do. You either do a 'good job' as a producer in the industry or you don't, I don't think he leads his team very well. I don't think the smart people around him do their best in his presence in the studio. I think the games could be better, and I think he is the reason they are not better.

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#38 Posted by cmblasko (1351 posts) -

Nope.

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#39 Edited by Slag (4885 posts) -

This seems par for the course for Kojima.

If you are still a fan after MGS2 shenanigans I don't see how this would lose you now

#40 Posted by StarvingGamer (8558 posts) -

...what?

MGS2 says hi.

#41 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -
Kojima is infallible.

....Almost.

#42 Posted by Milkman (17327 posts) -

You're all in the palm of his hands.

#43 Edited by SlashDance (1843 posts) -

Every new Metal Gear game since 1 has had some sort of big fuck you attached to it by Kojima. You want a sequel to MGS ? I'll give you this new whiny character. You didn't like him and wanted to play as Snake ? He still won't be in the next game, oh by the way it's all in the jungle and there's no Metal Gear in it. You really want Snake back for the next one ? Ok then, I'll make him old and give him a ridiculous mustache.

Not at all surprising that some people are disappointed by what we've seen of MGS5, every single game Kojima releases pisses off some portion of his audience, and I love him for it.

#44 Posted by Soapy86 (2622 posts) -

I thought that Joakim Mogren / Moby Dick stuff was fun.

Regarding Hayer, if everything we've heard so far is legit, then yes, that makes me lose a bit of respect for Kojima. Not as a game dev, but just as a person. I have no problem with Snake/Big Boss being recast, but the way they have allegedly handled it is kind of shitty. I'm not convinced Hayter won't be in MGSV though.

#45 Edited by N7 (3677 posts) -

@milkman said:

You're all in the palm of his hands.

It's great though, isn't it? Hideo "Joakim" says everyone is crazy, that The Phantom Pain isn't an MGS game, and that he has nothing to do with it. We know he's lying... or is he? In the end, yes, he was. But when David Hayter says it, we believe him. He's an actor. That dude's so slick I just look at him when I want to cook because I don't have Pam. He's faking. He's stringing us along hard. Sure, it's convincing, but, again, actor.

#46 Posted by coakroach (2492 posts) -

I dont want to judge him too harshly, he's clearly completely fucking insane.

#47 Posted by rolanthas (256 posts) -

MGS 1 and 2 hold such a monumental significance in my life that I'm honestly a bit too judgmental with anything MG related. I take no issue with the "reveal", it was a fun little scheme to get everyone talking, and silliness is an established trait of the series for sure.

However, I don't give two shits about Big Boss / Naked Snake. I don't like how in 2 years, Metal Gear SOLID games will have Big Boss as a protagonist moreso than Solid Snake. Ever since MGS 2 was revealed, I kept waiting for a proper Solid Snake game, and each time it had been yanked away from me. MGS 2 had, of course, Raiden as the true protagonist. 3 had BB, and 4 had around 2 chapters of actual playable content, and 3 chapters of pure cinematics. Not to mention it also completely retconned and wrecked almost all major traits of Solid.

And dropping both Hayter AND the iconic theme is just too much for a frothing fan such as I. Guess it's good for those that claim Hayter somehow ruined Snake, though I don't remember a single person claiming this during the last, oh, 15 years or so. Interesting how the bandwagon behaves.

#48 Posted by DarkShaper (1349 posts) -

MGS2 is my favorite game in the series by far. I'm down for just about anything the Metal Gear series wants to throw at me.

#49 Posted by kumis (74 posts) -

@rolanthas: The 'Solid' in 'Metal Gear Solid' does not refer to Solid Snake, it refers to the change from 2D to 3D, where everything is 'solid' as opposed to 2D. I know that doesn't help your feelings about the lead characters, just trying to be informative :)

#50 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4892 posts) -

It's funny that people keep saying Kojima should break away from expectations and just do whatever the hell he wants.

He's doing that with MGS5 and now people are pissed off because he's not "respecting the series legacy" or whatever bullshit is in the OP. The guy is Japanese and Japanese corporate culture doesn't exactly encourage employees to break off and do their own thing if they become disenfranchised with their lot. Kojima's work on MGS4 felt very mercenary. Work for hire. Like he didn't give a shit (because he didn't). Everything I've seen about The Phantom Pain/Ground Zeroes/MGS5 shows that he's found a loophole to do what he wants to do, but work it within the framework Konami will give him. It's obvious he's excited again, and that makes me excited. Kojima being passionate enough about this project to do a bunch of weird ancillary crap like "Joakim Mogren" is a good sign.

As for David Hayter, look. His voice is shite. It's been getting progressively worse since Solid 1. Did you play Peace Walker? I barely understood half the lines he spat out in between all the gravel he was chewing. It's time for a new voice actor and like Hayter himself said, he's had a hell of a ride. The thing about rides though is that they end.

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