When I first played the original MGS, I was... I dunno, around 8-9 years old, so the twist that Master Miller was actually Liquid Snake all along naturally threw me off guard just a wee bit. But once I played through again a few years later, it kinda dawned on me that... Master Miller and Liquid Snake sound an awful lot like each other. I mean you can barely tell the difference! That wonderful son'bitch Cam Clarke is pretty much using the exact same voice for both. Even with knowledge that Master Miller is Liquid Snake, it still sounds like it would have been a kind of obvious twist to catch on for the older generation of players.

Though there's always the possibility that because of the general scarcity of voice acting--or rather good voice acting--during that era, maybe most assumed they had the same guy voice two characters for budget reasons? As such I'm highly curious to hear from the older video game players (and of course the more deductive pre-teens than I) about whether they can remember thinking to themselves ''Hey, Mike. Check this 'Master Miller' guy out. He's clearly Liquid Snake in disguise trying to manipulate Solid Snake into achieving his goals for him, and the real Master Miller is going to turn out to be dead this whole time! You'll see, now pass me a beer.''

Also I'm sure you all had a friend called Mike back then who you enjoyed drinking beers with. Because of course you did. Who didn't have a friend to drink beers with called Mike during the 90s? I should also mention that once Liquid starts getting extremely pushy when you call him up while you're waiting for those card keys to change temperature, it definitely starts to outright spell it out for you. Even my nose-picking 1998 self started to become a little suspicious. But I'm more so tying the predictability to the voice more than anything else.

Oh, btw spoilers lulz

Well now it is.

@Dagbiker said:

Well now it is.

Snarky snark snark. C'mon man, we're at a point now where people will publicly discuss MGS4 spoilers. I really don't think I need to wrap this all up in red spoiler-tape.

@Yummylee: I never actually played the first MGS. My poor-kid ass hedged bets on the N64 instead of the Playstation (I had been burned by choosing Genesis over SNES). That said, after playing through Peace Walker, I kept thinking "Jesus Kaz looks a lot like Liquid Snake."

Even sounds like him in Peace Walker, too.

At the time, I didn't suspect at all. I wasn't that young at the time, but not much older.

I played Twin Snakes though, so I have no idea how much the Miller/Liquid voice acting changed. But yes, in retrospect, they sound awfully similar. Or maybe I didn't notice because I knew they were voiced by the same guy, and thought that was just a case of voice actors doing that some of the time (like The Simpsons, for example). I don't know!

@Oldirtybearon: I'm pretty sure it's a different voice actor in Peace Walker, oddly enough. I think it was Cam Clarke in MGS1 and Robin Atkin Downes in Peace Walker.

I didn't guess it the first time I played it. Last time I played the game was just before 4 came out so I might be remembering incorrectly, but you don't actually speak to Miller all that much so it didn't really click. Whenever voices sounded the same in older games I assumed the same as you in that they just used one actor for various parts. I guess I hadn't ever played a game with a twist/narrative like that, so I wasn't expecting it.

@MooseyMcMan said:

At the time, I didn't suspect at all. I wasn't that young at the time, but not much older.

I played Twin Snakes though, so I have no idea how much the Miller/Liquid voice acting changed. But yes, in retrospect, they sound awfully similar. Or maybe I didn't notice because I knew they were voiced by the same guy, and thought that was just a case of voice actors doing that some of the time (like The Simpsons, for example). I don't know!

@Oldirtybearon: I'm pretty sure it's a different voice actor in Peace Walker, oddly enough. I think it was Cam Clarke in MGS1 and Robin Atkin Downes in Peace Walker.

It definitely is a different guy, but the Miller voice from MGS1 is still really damn close to the one used in Peace Walker. I'm not complaining, because Kaz Miller is my bro.

@Oldirtybearon: Agreed, he was a pretty great second in command. And I think it's really impressive how close Downes was to the original voice.

This just reminded me that MGS might be the greatest game ever made

The realization hit me when I downed Liquid in the helicopter. For whatever reason, I remember going through all my codec contacts, and Miller just came through with static.

No. I was pretty young... That was a magical game.

I knew ahead of time, my oldest brother spoiled it for me before I even started playing the game.

Ehm, if Master Miller is Liquid Snake doing an act it would be kind of obvious the same voice actor would be doing both voices? 
I never caught on it but it was ages ago I played that game and I only recognize Jennifer Hale, Steven Blum (who is absofuckinglutely everywhere) or Nathan Fillion.

I don't even remember who Master Miller is. After just looking him up, I though you only talked to him a couple times. Either way I don't think I noticed it.

Nope. Never pieced it together. It was pretty early on for a crazy twist

At the time I didn't realize it was liquid right off the bat.

Played MGS for the first time last year and I didn't see it coming. But I also never called him and considered him a throw away character that you ask for advice. For me, Campbell from MGS2 being a computer was way crazier and awesome than Master Miller just being Liquid.

I was also very young, around seven years old and no, it didn't dawn on me until it happened. Would have been hilarious if Kaz turned out to be Liquid in Peace Walker as well. He's just never not Liquid.

@Ubersmake said:

The realization hit me when I downed Liquid in the helicopter. For whatever reason, I remember going through all my codec contacts, and Miller just came through with static.

yeah I remember that too. I don't remember how I reacted to find out he was liquid, but it might have been a gradual suspicion.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Yummylee: I never actually played the first MGS. My poor-kid ass hedged bets on the N64 instead of the Playstation (I had been burned by choosing Genesis over SNES). That said, after playing through Peace Walker, I kept thinking "Jesus Kaz looks a lot like Liquid Snake."

Even sounds like him in Peace Walker, too.

I've only played around an hour of Peace Walker, but it took me to stumble onto the GB's PW page to realise that's the Master Miller! I'm certain he actually says as such, and even listed, as Miller, too. But I figured that he was Miller's dad or something and not the real deal. I guess because, ironically enough, the appearance of Liquid Snake's Miller has always been seated in my mind as what Miller actually looks like, so for me Kaz in Peace Walker looked too old to star in the game. Total mind-bend. @_@

@GunstarRed said:

I didn't guess it the first time I played it. Last time I played the game was just before 4 came out so I might be remembering incorrectly, but you don't actually speak to Miller all that much so it didn't really click. Whenever voices sounded the same in older games I assumed the same as you in that they just used one actor for various parts. I guess I hadn't ever played a game with a twist/narrative like that, so I wasn't expecting it.

That's true, you could very easily skip a lot of Master Miller dialogue. But I looooved calling up folks during MGS and would constantly check for their feedback on just about anything. I certainly played that game enough times to want to try and tweak with just about everything. I specifically remember finding it funny killing rats and/or crows with the stinger around the furnace/icey elevators, which Naomi will thenscold you for being cruel to animals :P

@MooseyMcMan said:

At the time, I didn't suspect at all. I wasn't that young at the time, but not much older.

I played Twin Snakes though, so I have no idea how much the Miller/Liquid voice acting changed. But yes, in retrospect, they sound awfully similar. Or maybe I didn't notice because I knew they were voiced by the same guy, and thought that was just a case of voice actors doing that some of the time (like The Simpsons, for example). I don't know!

@Oldirtybearon: I'm pretty sure it's a different voice actor in Peace Walker, oddly enough. I think it was Cam Clarke in MGS1 and Robin Atkin Downes in Peace Walker.

Cam Clarke's performance for both Liquid and Miller is pretty much the same in Twin Snakes. And it's crazy to think that Downes is the one who's giving Miller his first voiced performance, given that Cam Clarke was of course only voicing Liquid while Liquid is disguised as Miller. Really weird, and when you think about it, should Miller even be credited on MGS' character list?

@Ubersmake said:

The realization hit me when I downed Liquid in the helicopter. For whatever reason, I remember going through all my codec contacts, and Miller just came through with static.

ooooh, I remember those occasions, too! During any subsequent playthroughs (i was at an age where I'd play through every game literally dozens of time) I'd always check such details to see if Master Miller was 'preoccupied' whenever Liquid was busy or, y'know, in the middle of a Hind crash. Though what I did find out is that when you're climbing up top the Metal Gear Rex base, and you can spot both Liquid and Ocelot in the control room, you can still call Master Miller up showing him with his shades and surfer hairstyle. Also that's another thing... it doesn't actually even make any sense for Liquid to dress up as Miller. It's not like Snake can actually see him when he's calling.

@Yummylee: Literally the first time I played MGS, when Master Miller calls you in the vents, I thought "Wait, isn't this the guy that just got into the chopper(liquid)?" Literally the first time he spoke.

I was 11? Yeah, I think so.

@Yummylee said:

When I first played the original MGS, I was... I dunno, around 8-9 years old, so the twist that Master Miller was actually Liquid Snake all along naturally threw me off guard just a wee bit. But once I played through AGAIN a few years later

That's why.

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

This just reminded me that MGS might be the greatest game ever made

It's certainly the high point for the series, before MGS2 had to do go and add hours of nonsensical exposition to the fictional setting.

@Yummylee: Ha, I remember a conversation about rats. I also remember Rose would get really mad if you sat murdering seagulls with Raiden in 2.

also this

@Video_Game_King said:

@Yummylee said:

When I first played the original MGS, I was... I dunno, around 8-9 years old, so the twist that Master Miller was actually Liquid Snake all along naturally threw me off guard just a wee bit. But once I played through AGAIN a few years later

That's why.

What?

@GunstarRed said:

@Yummylee: Ha, I remember a conversation about rats. I also remember Rose would get really mad if you sat murdering seagulls with Raiden in 2.

Ah, the codec calls. They always made for a lot of fun in both MGS and MGS2. I found them almost therapeutic to just sit there and listen to a pair of floating heads talk about nonsense. The voice acting was, generally, just so good I didn't care if I wasn't able to sustain a lot of the techno-babble Nastasha was telling me about every one of my guns and gadgets. Oh, and the cardboard box conversations - love it. Plus I remember how reliable I found Otacon to be; whenever I was stuck, I would always fall back on Otacon to eventually just explain exactly what to do.

MGS3 had some fun codec-calls, especially with Paramedic talking about old (or current, by the game's timeline) movies and such. I never liked the static images, though, even if they did still fit the era. MGS4... hmm, I guess Otacon was still enjoyable to listen to, though Rose was so damn boring regardless of any sixaxis creepy boob jiggle features.

Another thing I've always appreciated about the codec is the consistency of the frequencies. Your Commander is always 140.85, Otacon's is always 141.12, the 'veteran' character (Miller/Snake himself in MGS2/The Boss) is always 141.80 and ect. Great bit of fanservice.

I'm sorry but that first reply + Kermit pic was too funny. Snarky Kermit for the win.

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

@Yummylee said:

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

I had the same experience in MGS2 when I caught onto the whole game being a VR mission for Raiden, with nothing, not even Snake, being real.

It's a pretty cerebral and amazing game when you view it through the lens of "none of this is happening in real life."

I missed out on MGS when it first came around, decided to give it a go way later when it showed up on the GameCube as Twin Snakes. So, that said, the Miller thing was no shock to me. I recognized the voice and decided, "yeah, probably the same guy". I was older though, and keenly aware that Cam Clarke can do more than one voice.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Yummylee said:

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

I had the same experience in MGS2 when I caught onto the whole game being a VR mission for Raiden, with nothing, not even Snake, being real.

It's a pretty cerebral and amazing game when you view it through the lens of "none of this is happening in real life."

I think it's pretty impressive that MGS2's climax was so bizarre that there are people who still don't follow what happened during the final 2-3 hours of the game.

Just to be clear, Oldirtybearon, what you just said isn't the plot of that game.

The funny thing is Liquid does a pretty good Miller impression. I mean, listen to Rober Atkin Dowes in PW and then Clam Carke as Liquid as Miller, it's kind of close.

@BisonHero said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Yummylee said:

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

I had the same experience in MGS2 when I caught onto the whole game being a VR mission for Raiden, with nothing, not even Snake, being real.

It's a pretty cerebral and amazing game when you view it through the lens of "none of this is happening in real life."

I think it's pretty impressive that MGS2's climax was so bizarre that there are people who still don't follow what happened during the final 2-3 hours of the game.

Just to be clear, Oldirtybearon, what you just said isn't the plot of that game.

And why do you say that?

@Yummylee said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@Yummylee said:

When I first played the original MGS, I was... I dunno, around 8-9 years old, so the twist that Master Miller was actually Liquid Snake all along naturally threw me off guard just a wee bit. But once I played through AGAIN a few years later

That's why.

What?

I'm saying it's a bit difficult to call a plot twist obvious when you've experienced the entire story beforehand, or at least experienced it up to the relevant plot twist.

The first time I played the game I had no reason to really expect it. Like you say voice actors could be reused.

Everything seems more obvious when you know it I suppose.

Yea I never suspected that twist. I first played it when I was like 13 or so, hadn't experienced too many conspiracy-theory-esque stuff like Metal Gear and Deus Ex so was duped to falling for ALL of MGS's twists. Upon my second playthrough, I felt so dumb about not realizing that Snake never talked to the DARPA chief. After all, the game gives a really good hint in the beginning of the game, showing you that flashback scene of the actual Donald Anderson dead in the torture chamber. Miller being Liquid though, I donno. I replayed MGS like twenty times and I never felt it was that easy to suspect. I always just had that disbelief that Snake himself was duped. If Master Miller really was that big of an influence in his life, wouldn't he recognize that's not his voice? I mean, if someone ever tried to prank calling me imitating the voice of my best friend, I would know immediately.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@BisonHero said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Yummylee said:

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

I had the same experience in MGS2 when I caught onto the whole game being a VR mission for Raiden, with nothing, not even Snake, being real.

It's a pretty cerebral and amazing game when you view it through the lens of "none of this is happening in real life."

I think it's pretty impressive that MGS2's climax was so bizarre that there are people who still don't follow what happened during the final 2-3 hours of the game.

Just to be clear, Oldirtybearon, what you just said isn't the plot of that game.

And why do you say that?

Oh and I was reading through this, but I would say it's because what happened in MGS2 was not a virtual simulation. Raiden really did meet Snake, and Rose is a real person. S3 is not actually Solid Snake Simulation. I mean, that's a part of it, but the whole simulation aspect was itself a guise so that no one would know that the purpose was actually "Selection for Societal Sanity": to control information flow in society.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@BisonHero said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Yummylee said:

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

I had the same experience in MGS2 when I caught onto the whole game being a VR mission for Raiden, with nothing, not even Snake, being real.

It's a pretty cerebral and amazing game when you view it through the lens of "none of this is happening in real life."

I think it's pretty impressive that MGS2's climax was so bizarre that there are people who still don't follow what happened during the final 2-3 hours of the game.

Just to be clear, Oldirtybearon, what you just said isn't the plot of that game.

And why do you say that?

Because... well, MGS4 happened, I think that's proof enough that everything that happened in MGS2 was real. The manipulation of Raiden and the whole eerie Solid Snake Simulation thing thought up by the Patriots was all purposely devised and stuff, but it all still physically happened in the 'real' world.

EDIT: Oh, or rather the Selection for Societal Sanity. Man, that bloody ending... It was just too much crazy frankly.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Yummylee said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@Yummylee said:

When I first played the original MGS, I was... I dunno, around 8-9 years old, so the twist that Master Miller was actually Liquid Snake all along naturally threw me off guard just a wee bit. But once I played through AGAIN a few years later

That's why.

What?

I'm saying it's a bit difficult to call a plot twist obvious when you've experienced the entire story beforehand, or at least experienced it up to the relevant plot twist.

But I'm not saying that it is obvious, I'm asking if anyone else--more so the older generation--did find it obvious. I only brought up the notion that it could be because, when I look back now, both Liquid and Miller sound the exact same. I'm basically just repeating my own OP at this point.

I didn't figure it out, but I did play the Twin Snakes version. Dunno if the similarities in voice are more or less obvious in the rerecorded dialogue. In the PS1 original though the DARPA Chief and Gray Fox share a voice actor, which I think helps throw people off since those two obviously aren't the same character.

@kwonstein said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@BisonHero said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Yummylee said:

@M_Shini said:

If it had been hiding it for longer than it did my brain might have caught onto it but since it is revealed kind of quickly i never even really thought about it begin a possibility.

Playing through further times you see the little hints like static codec ect tho which feels neat afterwards.

Yup, it's kinda like watching through the Sixth Sense again when you're now fully aware that Bruce's dead the whole time. Makes for such an interesting perspective.

I had the same experience in MGS2 when I caught onto the whole game being a VR mission for Raiden, with nothing, not even Snake, being real.

It's a pretty cerebral and amazing game when you view it through the lens of "none of this is happening in real life."

I think it's pretty impressive that MGS2's climax was so bizarre that there are people who still don't follow what happened during the final 2-3 hours of the game.

Just to be clear, Oldirtybearon, what you just said isn't the plot of that game.

And why do you say that?

Oh and I was reading through this, but I would say it's because what happened in MGS2 was not a virtual simulation. Raiden really did meet Snake, and Rose is a real person. S3 is not actually Solid Snake Simulation. I mean, that's a part of it, but the whole simulation aspect was itself a guise so that no one would know that the purpose was actually "Selection for Societal Sanity": to control information flow in society.

Also Raiden and Snake co-operate in Metal Gear Solid 4 so even if you didn't pay attention at the end of 2, this should have made you think.

Haha yes because I watched Metal Gear Awesome before playing MGS1

As a young teen everything was a shocker for me in MGS. The whole story and presentation kinda blew me away - as did the repeated talks of nuclear weapons. I kept thinking like wow these guys really love nukes!

Also kinda of crazy that when MGS2 came out and you learn that Liquids arm was grafted onto Ocelot and now is controlling him - I just thought "oh, well yah that makes sense" because in the world of MGS it pretty much did..

It never dawned on me at first, until later in the game the suspicion began to creep up on me.

@Yummylee:

Oh.....Shit. I can't really say much, since I know the plot yet haven't played a Metal Gear Solid game in forever. In fact, I think the last one I played was Ghost Babel.

@Humanity said:

As a young teen everything was a shocker for me in MGS. The whole story and presentation kinda blew me away - as did the repeated talks of nuclear weapons. I kept thinking like wow these guys really love nukes!

Also kinda of crazy that when MGS2 came out and you learn that Liquids arm was grafted onto Ocelot and now is controlling him - I just thought "oh, well yah that makes sense" because in the world of MGS it pretty much did..

Naaaaaah, I still thought that whole arm thing was ridiculous. It's almost like some sort of parody/homage to Dr Strangelove. Though given how radical Kojima took the series from that point on, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was.

@kwonstein: I'm aware of the "true nature" of the S3 plan, and how it ties into filtering digital information to provide a digestive context for history as shaped by the Patriots. What I'm referring to is the widely known VR Theory, which posits that nothing is real. The theory goes a long way to explaining Arsenal Gear and why it bears such a striking resemblance to the VR arenas from MGS1. Not to mention the game over screen for Raiden (which even has stat tracking, as if it were a VR simulation).

I also know that Kojima's essentially dismantled the idea for the VR Theory as canon considering MGS4 is a direct sequel to MGS2, but from the time of first playing MGS2 in 2003 until MGS4's release, it's an interpretation of events in MGS2 that I considered to be, well, accurate. The whole Big Shell chapter being a VR simulation really ties into the themes of the game and challenges the player to confront the lie they're being told. The ultimate test of S3 is, essentially, whether or not the game can manipulate you into fulfilling your mission and playing your role.

I suggest reading up on the VR Theory if you're unaware of it. It's fascinating.

@Yummylee: I thought it was pretty stupid but in context of everything that happens in MGS1 it wasn't exactly a far fetched idea. I mean as I remember they highlight the fact that Olga had armpit hair. Who does that??

Not when I was 10 it wasn't super obvious.

It's hard to tell, since it was so long ago, but I guess I was surprised the first time. Then again, I was like ten.

@Yummylee: @Herocide:

MGS2 came out in 2001. MGS4 in 2008. That's a seven year gap between the direct sequels. Kojima went on record during saying that he never intended to do a direct sequel to MGS2. Ever. It was supposed to be open ended and left to interpretation.

I'm not disputing that the events of MGS2 are now considered canon, I'm saying that, for five years, I believed (along with others) that the brilliant masterstroke of MGS2 was in how the game was built from the ground up to be a simulation of Shadow Moses, both for Raiden and the player. That none of it was real, and was partly cobbled together based on Raiden's expectations and the facts that were available.

I'm advocating that you both go and read up on the VR Theory. It. Is. Fascinating.