DOTA 2 and LoL: similar, but completely different

Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

Lazy blogging, it happens to the best of us. I just happen to be rather normal, so I don't keep up very well. Regardless, I decided this was worth writing about, though I'm sure it's a totally beaten-down topic. But, I don't use a blog to create new ideas. I use it to give my input on subjects I deem worthy. I enjoy opening a direct conversation to people who care enough to read my thoughts, though it doesn't necessarily matter to me if no one reads it. If you do read this, just know I love you a little bit more than the rest of the world ;-)

SO, I've been an avid LoL player for the better part of 2 years now. I follow the pro circuit (MakNooN is my favorite, and American teams are absolutely dreadful. "They're getting better!" No they're not, they'll always be second rate. The day they make it to the world finals is the day LoL is dead.). Now, I used to be completely obsessed, but these days I just enjoy the game when I get time. I still believe that it deserves the fanbase it has developed, and that game could stick around for a good while. That said, recently I have been trying out Dota 2. I started playing the week before Brad jumped into it, if you follow the bombcast at all.

Dota 2 definitely has a learning curve. I actually tried to get into it 8 months ago, but found it way too complex. Now, before the Dota 2 released, people were swearing that it would destroy LoL and be this big fantastic game. That is not, and will never be true. The reason for this is because Dota 2's mechanics are far more advanced than those of LoL. This makes for a high barrier of entry and a fair amount of time where you are just getting hammered for your mistakes. For instance, instead of being able to go back to base by just hitting a button, like in LoL, you must use a special item known as the recall scroll. But that's not all. That scroll is a single use, but can also teleport you to ANY friendly building on the field. So, it acts as a teleport and a recall, but it takes up an item slot. Also, there are 3 places to buy 3 different sets of items, and you can have a courier on your team, which is literally another controllable character that runs items from any store to any friendly character.

LoL keeps things simple. It rarely has instances where you must control more than one champ. All items are kept at the storekeeper at base, and most mechanics are very straightforward. Dota 2 seriously has a guy where he transforms into 5 of himself. His name is Meepo, and you can control each of those people as individuals. Only the main one can carry items, but all of them can farm or jungle. If any one of them dies, they all die. That's not a mechanic for a casual player.

LoL has a good learning slope. You start out with 0 of everything, and you only get a handful of champions to play. This may sound boring, but it is actually really helpful since your choices are limited. You aren't overwhelmed with options, and you have a solid week to hone your skills with those champs. It's actually a nice way to learn, and you are never tempted to just jump from champion to champion to champion. When you get Dota 2, you get the whole thing. It's awesome, but it's also very tough to find that one champ that really stick. You're always thinking, "sure, I'm pretty good with this guy, but there 100 others that I may be better with!" This ends with people playing champs that are extremely tough (I'm looking at you, Invoker), and they fail miserably. That's not to say LoL doesn't have its terrible players; in fact, LoL can be more frustrating than playing a fighting game where the other guy just bangs his head on the controller. It's just that there is a lot more room to screw up in Dota 2.

The point of this wall of text is that I've been an avid LoL fan, but it can be pretty boring at times. And it can definitely get frustrating. If you can get over the learning curve, and you want a bit more complexity and excitement, try out some Dota 2. The items have some really fantastic effects, the mechanics are downright insane at times, and the champions vary just as wildly as in LoL. It's not a game for the casual MOBA player, though. In my experience, it can be immensely rewarding, though, once you get the hang of it. LoL is more competitive, but anyone stuck in the ranked cycle knows that it can feel absolutely hopeless at times. Dota 2 doesn't throw the ranked thing in your face, and you are rewarded almost every game with loot and new clothing items for different champs. Even if you lose, you can still win.

Anyways, thanks for reading. If you have any questions about LoL, I know tons. As for Dota 2, I don't know as much, but I can be helpful. I hope you enjoyed it, and maybe you can decide which game to learn. They're both really great, though I know that Giant Bomb isn't known for its massive competitive gaming readers. They're worth the investment.

#1 Edited by CheapPoison (727 posts) -

Both are fine games( and on top of the crowded moba genre for a reason, well the moba genre is so crowded cause of lol's succes so...), but in my opinion for inherently for very different people.

And i would not say that Lol is more competitive. Lol puts those stats really upfront while dota hides them. I think a higher percentage of dota players is actually interested in competitiveness then the lol players. And i believe dota offers way more better platform for competition. But i base that also partly on lol being a bit more of a casual game and a lot of people not taking it very serious.

#2 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

I'll ask something about LoL:

@euphorio said:

the champions vary just as wildly as in LoL.

Is this really true? Is there a Meepo, Invoker, Wisp and Broodmother in LoL? Are there ultimates like Naga's, Brewmaster's, Ogre Magi's, Rubick's or Weaver's? As someone who plays Dota 2 I'm genuinely curious but skeptical. From what I've heard and seen this just does not hold up.

And I don't know about LoL being more competitive. Obviously, I'm strongly biased towards Dota 2 with 1000 hours and counting vs. the two games I played of LoL, but the general consensus seems to be against those two points at least.

Valve's also working to make Dota 2 more accessible, like voluntarily limiting the heroes you have available, building up a tutorial system and so on. I don't know how much they can do in the end, but they're trying at least. The coaching system and bot games should help as well.

@euphorio said:

LoL can be more frustrating than playing a fighting game where the other guy just bangs his head on the controller.

Block and sweep should do the trick

#3 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

@cheappoison: I totally agree that Dota 2 is definitely more catered towards the competitive scene. The spectating and the many tournament passes offered make for easy ways to watch a game. However, LoL has the ranking system that allows you to see your progress as people are trying to make it to the top tier. They have also created their own competitive scene with the LCS. There are just tons more people playing LoL over Dota 2. So, even if the percentage isn't as high, the raw amount of people playing competitively is most likely higher.

I could be totally wrong, of course, and I'm not saying I'm an expert.

@chibithor: I'm not going to say that their ults are as extreme as Dota 2's, but they do have a very broad variation. For instance, Ahri's ult acts as a dash that shoots balls of magic damage when she arrives, and it can be used 3 times before going on cooldown. Urgot's ult is essentially Vengeful Spirit, but with a 1.5 second suppress on both him and the target. Also, he gains armor for a little bit once he arrives. Heimerdinger's ult gives him a temporary boost to his other 3 skills, giving them better effects. And Elise's ult is available at level 1 and allows her to shapeshift from a human to a spider at will. Now, Dota 2 definitely has more powerful ultimates, but I'm not arguing that they are the same caliber. I'm just saying that they have the same amount of variation from one champ to another. No 2 champions feel or play the same in either game, generally. I'm sure there's some exception, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.

#4 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@euphorio: I'm not talking purely about power but variation as well. Meepo has his ult and all of his skills work together with it. Invoker has his own system for casting 10 different spells that are each unique in their own right, while the skills he uses to invoke them all give him passive effects at the same time. Wisp doesn't have much power on his own and requires another hero to be even remotely useful, and his ult is another weird one. Broodmother has the webs and spiders that are mechanics unique to that one hero.

The added power to the ultimates adds to their complexity and variation as well. Unless you're willing to have powerful ultimates, ones like Naga's cannot exist. I'll need to take a closer look at LoL's ultimate but I'd still say the variation is greater simply because there's more room for them to vary. I'm not saying there's zero variation in LoL but that the design of Dota simply allows for much more, like with items.

#5 Posted by Canteu (2821 posts) -

@chibithor: You don't seem to be asking if the champions are different, you seem to be asking if they're as OP as DOTA's. In this case, no, because balance is fun.

But to answer you original question, out of the 120ish champions, not one has a kit that is the same, or even close to being similar. So yes, there is variation.

#6 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@canteu: I'm not asking if they're different, no, because I know they are. My original question was "Is there someone as different from the rest as Meepo or Invoker?", with added examples.

#7 Posted by GreekTrojan (18 posts) -

DOTA has more varied champs due to its nature as a mod and half the champs just being ones with the coolest skillsets. LOL's are less varied because they are designed from an actual gameplay/competitive balance standpoint, which means they tend to be a bit more similar but with different flavors. As a result LOL tends to be better balanced across the entire roster, which adds to the accessibility (as 90% of the roster is realistically competitive). DOTA's roster, by comparison, is be more fun at first as you play around with the whole roster and have fun with all the varied skills but less than 1/2 the roster will be played regularly as there is a much more defined tier of good vs. bad characters for competitive play.

That said, there is solid variation in LOL's champs in practice, just much less obvious in writing as LOL's champs are more spammy/ability driven than DOTA's (longer CDs, fewer active abilities, abilities tend to be crazier though). Singed is a great example of someone who sound dumb on paper but is surprisingly useful/unique (basically his only damage is is poison trail, but is super tanky and amazingly disruptive).

#8 Posted by MAGZine (436 posts) -

@canteu: if you think LoL is more balanced than DotA, then that's hilarious.

10/10.

#9 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

@chibithor: I would agree that Dota 2 definitely has a wider area for expansion, but @canteu makes a good point in that LoL is much more manageable for balance. Now, there are champions with their own unique mechanics that have no similarities, yes. I mean, even in Dota 2, there are many cases where 2 characters have a ridiculously similar move. For example, both Nyx Assassin and Lion have a very similar Earth Spike.

To get to your question, I'd say that there are a few champions that play wildly different from the rest of the LoL champion pool. For example, half of Heimerdinger's damage comes straight from 2 turrets he places on the ground that attack in an aoe around themselves. Therefore, a good Heimer does not run to the nearest safe building like most champions. He kites around his turrets until the other champion murders himself. Another example would be Zed, who works on an energy system. Think Rogues from WoW, and that's his energy rather than mana. He depends on placements of special "shadows" that copy his moves and he can blink between them.

This also leaves out the fact that LoL has 5 wildly different roles that are played on a team. From what I've seen on Dota 2, I believe there's only 3: you have your hard carry, your jungler, and the rest are labelled as supports, but tend to weigh on the bursty mage types. In LoL, there are tons of characters that act like wisp, who are only good when put with other members of the team. Those are the supports, who carry the aura items, ward the field, and generally either have heals or CC.

I'm aware that Dota 2 has certain character who do this same function, but it's rare to see them in a major tournament. For example, you aren't going to see Na'Vi run an Omniknight, or even a Lich very often. Sure, Wisp is a beast of a support, but he's the only one you will see in most games.

In LoL, you can narrow down the supports that the pros play to a group of 10 or 12 champions. And you will see those champions a TON.

#10 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

Also, with what @greektrojan is saying, Dota2 has a similar character in their Batrider. Batrider is different in that his trail can only last for so long, but it doesn't fade away until the spell is over.

Also, I tend to think that both games have their own balance issues. With the top teams in each game, you can clearly see a much smaller champion pool that is chosen from. For instance, Dota2 matches commonly have Gyrocopter, Lifestealer, Rubic, Magnus, Dark Seer (not so much anymore, but used to), and Bane.

In LoL, you see tons of Ezreal, Jarvan, Elise, Kha'zix, Shen and Thresh. What I'm saying is that each game has a clearly Tiered champion pool, so neither game can be defined as perfectly balanced. Therefore, it's fairly difficult to argue which one is more or less balanced than the other one.

#11 Posted by slyspider (1158 posts) -

@magzine:

League has a different balance philosophy. DOTA makes damn near every champ a 'carry' while league has more champions that cant do this and play a more team oriented role. I prefer League's method but to each his own and neither are more or less balanced than the other.

@canteu: I'm not asking if they're different, no, because I know they are. My original question was "Is there someone as different from the rest as Meepo or Invoker?", with added examples.

Karthus, Ryze, Ahri, Victor, Le'blanc. Those are vastly different champions and all fill the same role of 'mage.' While there is no Invoker type champion, that type wouldn't work for league.

On side note, while I think DOTA is geared more towards pro play, League is much more successful on the competitive scene. I don't think DOTA can hide behind 'its a beta' anymore, League has the bigger fan base and thus the bigger pro scene.

#12 Edited by slyspider (1158 posts) -

@euphorio: I'm not entirely up on DOTA high tier champions, but League is worldwide and thus each country has vastly different champions they use. While Kha, Shen, Ezreal and such are popular on NA, in EU and China, Ahri, Caitlyn, Varus, Trundle, Sej, and Corki are very popular. I do agree that the games are damn near impossible to compare balance.

#13 Edited by Euphorio (77 posts) -

I completely agree with most of this, but I'm referring solely to Major tournament draft choices. I know that there are tons of popular champs in both games that appear all over the place, but it's a rare sight in a LoL tournament to have a sej, corki, or trundle pick. Yes, there are examples of this happening, sure. I'm saying it's wildly uncommon. I could give you an example of a jungle Malzahar chosen in a major tournament, but it doesn't mean that people make these fringe choices often.

Also, yes, League really has demonstrated that it is the top competitive game in the world right now. What I mean is that it's the most universally accepted competitive Game right now. Sure, Starcraft is bigger in Korea, and I hear China really loves Dota1, but in the entire world scene, League has shown its dominance.

#14 Posted by jdh5153 (1034 posts) -

I think DOTA 2 appeals more to younger, more casual gamers, and League of Legends is for the more serious and dedicated. Tried DOTA 2, it sucks.

#15 Edited by Rincewind (247 posts) -

I can't tell if people are trolling or deluded about LoL in this thread.

Never worth coming into these types anyway.

#16 Edited by EXTomar (4517 posts) -

I always considered that the "secret sauce" to LoL wasn't the Heroes but the diverse skills where the heroes just become combinations of the skills plus an Ultimate. That is why they can have so many rotating heroes without throwing the balance into chaos whenever something new is added. This is in contrast to what happens in Dota 2 where every hero parameter and every skill is a "special snowflake". The synergies in Dota 2 are way way way stronger than could ever be achieved in LoL but the downside to that is that synergies only exist between specific character doing specific skills where many times there are no "substitutions".

I don't consider either style better but simply different. I've gotten into Dota 2 drafts with a hero I have no real experience playing effectively let alone efficiently while I suspect that doesn't happen in LoL but that brings a dynamic and excitement all on its own.

#17 Posted by MAGZine (436 posts) -

@rincewind said:

I can't tell if people are trolling or deluded about LoL in this thread.

Never worth coming into these types anyway.

At first I thought that people were just really deluded, but some of the information is so blatantly inaccurate, I think it's just trolling. Dota having only two roles? Dota trying to make every hero a carry?

Apparently the people who have played League forgot about every other week when a new, completely imbalanced champion comes out. And boring gameplay? Look at League's metagame. It only has one. No variation. League is a broken iteration of a brilliant game.

#18 Edited by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@euphorio: If you really want some copy-paste abilities in Dota 2 check out Lina's and Lion's ults. Deal a ton of instant damage to the target with no side effects, exciting! I can't say I've paid a ton of attention to the Dota 2 pro scene but it is a shame that there are so many certain picks and those that are never ever seen. I'm not sure it'll ever go away due to DotA's design.

@slyspider: I'd need to play LoL to be sure, but purely from their skillsets I don't see it. They seem different like Storm Spirit and Outworld Destroyer Devourer are different. They're int heroes that can carry, unique in their own right with entirely different skills, but at the end of the day there's nothing fundamentally different. They farm, attack and use spells like other heroes, the specifics of it are different but generally if you're competent at the game you can play them.

For Meepo and Invoker, you can't just jump into these heroes even if you're decent at Dota 2, you don't learn to efficiently use Invoker's spells and to make use of Meepo's clones properly by playing any other hero. This is why I can random every game and roll with a new hero I've never played, but immediately repick if I get Meepo or Invoker even though I've played both. They're too different

#19 Edited by SteveWinwood (7 posts) -

So many trolls lol

#20 Edited by YI_Orange (1134 posts) -

Now that DotA 2 doesn't feel fresh to me anymore, I have to say I prefer League of Legends.

I admit the stagnation in the meta sucks. That said, I don't get how people can prefer the abilities in DotA 2 over LoL. I found LoL's abilities to be much more fun and interesting. Also, DotA has passives, and passives are stupid and a waste of a slot.

#21 Edited by Slag (4070 posts) -

@jdh5153 said:

I think DOTA 2 appeals more to younger, more casual gamers, and League of Legends is for the more serious and dedicated. Tried DOTA 2, it sucks.

lol

#22 Edited by EXTomar (4517 posts) -

@jdh5153 said:

I think DOTA 2 appeals more to younger, more casual gamers, and League of Legends is for the more serious and dedicated. Tried DOTA 2, it sucks.

Yeah I don't think that is true at all. The "younger more casual gamers" aren't going to have a clue or the patience to figure out many heroes like Wisp or how to handle it faced against them. :)

In general, Dota 2 games are slow. Surprisingly slow if teams are evenly matched. Matches that last an hour is not uncommon. I suspect this alone will make sure it never is popular with "casual gamers" who need to not only remember the huge combination of abilities and are going to be forced to build up for so long before even doing serious attacks against the other team, and then forced to sit out for so long if they make mistakes and die. Dota 2 will never ever be a "play a quick match" game.

#23 Edited by Hungry (165 posts) -
@slyspider said:

@magzine:

League has a different balance philosophy. DOTA makes damn near every champ a 'carry' while league has more champions that cant do this and play a more team oriented role. I prefer League's method but to each his own and neither are more or less balanced than the other.

@chibithor said:

@canteu: I'm not asking if they're different, no, because I know they are. My original question was "Is there someone as different from the rest as Meepo or Invoker?", with added examples.

Karthus, Ryze, Ahri, Victor, Le'blanc. Those are vastly different champions and all fill the same role of 'mage.' While there is no Invoker type champion, that type wouldn't work for league.

On side note, while I think DOTA is geared more towards pro play, League is much more successful on the competitive scene. I don't think DOTA can hide behind 'its a beta' anymore, League has the bigger fan base and thus the bigger pro scene.

This is actually completely false. I would say that there are less heroes with carry potential in Dota than there is in League of Legends. The very existence of something like Ability Power or spells that scale off of your right click damage makes it so that there are more heroes with the capability to carry. In Dota 2 you will never make Crystal Maiden's spells do more damage, and her auto-attack and Strength and Agility are so godawful it is nigh-impossible to deal significant damage.

As for your examples of heroes that are different but fill the role of "mage." That kind of archetypal role is completely devoid in Dota. Heroes are categorized by farm priority rather than any sort of capability they have. Whether the hero has stuns, or burst damage, or the ability to farm quickly is something you consider in your lineup. You don't take Wisp because Wisp is a support, you take Wisp because you want the unique aspect that Wisp brings to the game. Dota has more heroes that change the dynamic of the way the game is played. League of Legends has more heroes, on average, that just sort of have different ways they do the same role as heroes that are similar.

I will say though I am sure League of Legends is more successful competitively. It is easier to get into and follow, and Riot throws tons and tons of money at the competitive scene. Valve supports the competition with their single tournament and through the game, so they just have a different approach. For example, now you can buy an item in the in-game store that the money goes to the prize pot for the big tournament of the year, the International. A great way for players to support the pro scene.

#24 Posted by ajamafalous (11868 posts) -

ITT: People talking about Dota that don't understand it

#25 Edited by ajamafalous (11868 posts) -

I think this'll be the only time I post in this thread because it's clear that a lot of people here are just taking their own opinions as facts instead of doing some research or being interested in learning anything.

@euphorio: If you really want some copy-paste abilities in Dota 2 check out Lina's and Lion's ults. Deal a ton of instant damage to the target with no side effects, exciting! I can't say I've paid a ton of attention to the Dota 2 pro scene but it is a shame that there are so many certain picks and those that are never ever seen. I'm not sure it'll ever go away due to DotA's design.

To address the first point, Lina and Lion's ults are actually different in that they scale differently because of the different roles that the heroes play. Lina's ult is 450/675/950 while Lion's is 600/725/850. Lina's usually going to be played as a 4/5, but she can semi-carry with her passive if the team wants to prioritize farm that way, thus her ult starts lower but ends higher. She also has two other high damage bursty abilities that can help offset the early damage that her ult lacks. Lion is almost always going to be a 5, so by the time he gets his ult up (later than Lina's, by comparison), it needs to be doing more damage or else it's already kind of an irrelevant skill. It doesn't do damage late because he's already a strong support with a line stun and a hex, whereas Lina only has one disable which isn't even guaranteed.

As for the second part, that's not even almost true. The metagame in Dota shifts by the month. Let's take a look at some heroes who were commonly picked a year or two ago compared to some heroes that are commonly picked now. The blue line in these graphs is what you'll want to pay attention to. I was going to analyze each graph for you, but I realized how long that would take and I feel that the graphs tend to speak for themselves, so I'm just going to list links to a few heroes whose metagame roles and frequency have shifted drastically over the last two years.

Gyrocopter
Morphling
Phantom Lancer
Templar Assassin
Windrunner
Lone Druid
Night Stalker
Lycanthrope
Anti-Mage
Lifestealer
Leshrac
Lich
Jakiro
Invoker
Shadow Demon
Sand King
Riki
Shadow Shaman
Sven
Storm Spirit

I'm sure there are some I'm forgetting, but I feel this is a big enough sample size to completely destroy your argument.

#26 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@euphorio said:

In LoL, you see tons of Ezreal, Jarvan, Elise, Kha'zix, Shen and Thresh. What I'm saying is that each game has a clearly Tiered champion pool, so neither game can be defined as perfectly balanced. Therefore, it's fairly difficult to argue which one is more or less balanced than the other one.

Not in ranked. Elise, Thresh and Shen are virtually impossible to play. (banned usually)

#27 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -

I came into this thread hoping that I would understand the differences between the two games, and I still understand nothing. Blegh.

#29 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

Alright, let's try and keep this a discussion and not a full-out argument.

Now @captaintightpants, if you want to know the differences, I broke down a few of them in the opening blog entry. If you'd like more details, then I'll give a quick rundown.

Dota2 tends to be FAR more complex, and utilizing top-level strategies can be difficult. It's a much more timing-oriented game. For starters, the jungle camps in Dota2 respawn every minute so long as there are no creeps or enemies in the camp. This leads to a tactic known as stacking, where you pull the camp 5 or 10 seconds before the spawn timer hits, so that the camp will spawn another group. This will help your jungler level quicker. Also, the enemy team can slow down your jungler just by placing wards in the spawn point. In LoL, the camps will always spawn 1 minute after you clear the camp for the small neutral monsters. The only way to slow down a jungler here is to go kill their camp, but leave 1 monster there so that the spawn timer doesn't start up.

Another difference: trees are fully destructible in Dota2. This means that there are many plays that involve coming through treelines, hiding in the trees, etc. There's even a couple champions who use trees for different effects. For instance, Nature's Prophet can turn trees into minions that will fight for him. Timbersaw gains true damage on one of his spells if he cuts down a tree with it. For LoL, the trees are clear boundaries. Unless you can flash to the other pathways, you can not cut through the trees.

Major difference: Items. Dota2's items tend to have more powerful effects than LoL's items. An example would be Manta Style, which has the active effect of creating 2 clones of you that do a portion of your damage. LoL items tend to have a minor effect that can enhance or debuff the team. Dota2 has strategies that revolve around a character having a certain item. An example would be Sand King's reliance on having a Blink Dagger to use his ult to any good effect.

I could go on for days, but it generally amounts to Dota2 having a much more complex system that tends to turn away people who started by playing LoL. Dota2 forces the player to be very aware of the clock in high-level play, and you must be able to do plenty of micromanagement. LoL has simplified most of these systems, and it tends to be much easier to just pick up and go. Dota takes some getting used to.

#30 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

@sooty: that's what I mean. Those characters are always picked or banned. The same goes for the Dota2 champs I listed. If they don't get banned out, then they'd be in most games because they're just that good.

As for the meta, that's not to say the meta doesn't shift. Of course it does. In both games, different champions fall in and out of favor, and there are many cases where certain team comps work one day and then fall off entirely the next. What I'm pointing out is that most people don't play their favorite champion in ranked and high-level play. Pros tend to pick the champions that are the strongest at the time. There are exceptions, but I can almost guarantee you that once the meta shifts again, you will see every team shifting their choice of champions.

In my case, I love to play champions that have odd mechanics that are fun to master. In LoL, that would be Heimerdinger, Urgot, and Viktor. In Dota2, i drift towards Venomancer, Visage, and Treant Protector. But, as you are all thinking right now, I would be trolled off the planet if I picked Heimerdinger in a ranked match, and people would tell me how worthless I was if I kept choosing Treant Protector. Now, sure, this does have to do with team compositions as well, but my point is that these champions are generally countered and completely underwhelming if you are playing solo. And these champions just don't exist in high level play.

#31 Posted by fujimitsu (23 posts) -

As with everywhere this discussion has ever occured, the total ignorance of the subject at hand is startling here. Move along people, nothing to see here.

#32 Edited by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@ajamafalous: I know they scale differently, I'm just talking mechanically.

As for competitive hero usage, the website shows that Timbersaw has been played twice so far. I like Timbersaw is all I'm saying, I guess. Bloodseeker's been around for a while and hasn't been picked much either.

There will probably still be heroes that will be picked/banned nearly every game after a metagame shift, as there will probably be heroes that are hardly even a consideration. I'm not saying the metagame is stale and that there are clear cut great and terrible heroes.

#33 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

@fujimitsu: This is, in fact, an ignorant comment that really was entirely unnecessary and generally just condescending. If you don't have actual input and just want to troll, there are tons of other places to go. Try out Reddit, or 4chan, or really anywhere else. I actually have done my research and have played plenty to understand what I'm talking about. Hence I haven't been yelling about how stupid other people are because that's a sheer sign that you DON'T know what you're talking about. I even give clear examples with each of my arguments. If you'd like to add to the conversation at hand, by all means join in. But if you're just going to be a complete tool, go elsewhere.

#34 Posted by Euphorio (77 posts) -

As for the other points, @hungry what I think he means is that most characters in Dota2 have a relatively powerful burst at one point or another in the game. Warlock comes to mind with this. Though he is almost always a support due to his nice heal and his damage enhancement via Fatal Bonds, there is a point where his burst from his ult tied to his DoT and Bonds makes for a potent killer. In LoL, many champions don't have much killing potential at any point in the game. Leona, for instance, has a fantastic support kit, with 2 stuns, a flash, and one armor and magic buff that has a bit of (negligible) burst. By herself, it would take ages to kill someone, and her passive only procs off of someone else's damage. So, she's reliant on a solid lane partner to get any kind of gold through assists.

The supports in Dota have a time where they can still be murder machines. If a LoL support gets caught out by anyone at any point, they're going to run for their lives.

#35 Posted by ajamafalous (11868 posts) -

@euphorio said:

@sooty: that's what I mean. Those characters are always picked or banned. The same goes for the Dota2 champs I listed. If they don't get banned out, then they'd be in most games because they're just that good.

As for the meta, that's not to say the meta doesn't shift. Of course it does. In both games, different champions fall in and out of favor, and there are many cases where certain team comps work one day and then fall off entirely the next. What I'm pointing out is that most people don't play their favorite champion in ranked and high-level play. Pros tend to pick the champions that are the strongest at the time. There are exceptions, but I can almost guarantee you that once the meta shifts again, you will see every team shifting their choice of champions.

In my case, I love to play champions that have odd mechanics that are fun to master. In LoL, that would be Heimerdinger, Urgot, and Viktor. In Dota2, i drift towards Venomancer, Visage, and Treant Protector. But, as you are all thinking right now, I would be trolled off the planet if I picked Heimerdinger in a ranked match, and people would tell me how worthless I was if I kept choosing Treant Protector. Now, sure, this does have to do with team compositions as well, but my point is that these champions are generally countered and completely underwhelming if you are playing solo. And these champions just don't exist in high level play.

As we can see here, Venomancer used to be a very common textbook support pick, but he's fallen out of favor recently because he lacks a solid disable. Gale is the best level 1 spell in the game, hands down, but he loses his effectiveness as the game goes longer; it's the same reason Chen has fallen off. As for Visage, there are a few teams that will run him relatively often in an offensive trilane because his nuke's damage output is huge at early levels with 6 heroes in a lane, not to mention the big damage and extra disables his Familiars can do in the early- and mid-game. He isn't played that often because he's a situational pick that's relatively difficult to use (microing the Familiars effectively). That goes for almost all heroes in Dota: the game is just as much about picking and counterpicking as it is about actually playing; there's a reason the drafts last 10-15 minutes. You'll get trashed if you go into every game just picking 5 heroes that you and your bros like to play. As for Tree, he was previously seen as one of those "not viable for competitive play" heroes, but with the recent buff to his Living Armor, there are a few teams that have been willing to take a chance on him (Na'Vi's Puppey, for example, claimed that he thinks Tree is on the edge of being useful in some situations if they could figure out a way to work him in to certain lineups). Again, though, it's all about picking and counterpicking. You can't pick heroes into a lineup that directly counters them or you'll be eaten alive.

@ajamafalous: I know they scale differently, I'm just talking mechanically.

As for competitive hero usage, the website shows that Timbersaw has been played twice so far. I like Timbersaw is all I'm saying, I guess. Bloodseeker's been around for a while and hasn't been picked much either.

There will probably still be heroes that will be picked/banned nearly every game after a metagame shift, as there will probably be heroes that are hardly even a consideration. I'm not saying the metagame is stale and that there are clear cut great and terrible heroes.

The problem with Timbersaw is that he's just not that useful in many (and the most important) phases of the game. Sure, he's okay in a sidelane, but he's a farm-dependent hero who desperately needs mana effeciency. Most professional play these days sees teams run either an offensive trilane (with the intent of being aggressive and denying the enemy carry farm) or a defensive trilane (with the intent of protecting your carry to allow him to farm) that include a carry and two supports with big disables (usually stuns) for setting up kills. Within the last year (and even harder in the last 3-6 months) the metagame has shifted to trying to fight early and often, which is why you see heroes like Anti-Mage and Phantom Lancer who are notoriously useless in the early laning phase falling off and teams picking up heroes like Juggernaut, Lifestealer, and Gyrocopter because these heroes are effective from level 1 and don't suffer in the early- and mid-game. The biggest problem with Timbersaw is that he doesn't bring anything to a trilane because he doesn't have any disables, he can't carry so he can't be the hero in the trilane with farm priority, and he can't mid because there aren't any trees in the lane for him to use (at which point he's just a big melee creep). Sure, he could maybe solo the offlane okay if you knew you were going to get a tri vs. tri so he'd be laning against a solo, but there are still heroes that actually contribute to a teamfight that can fill that role better (a Dark Seer, Clockwork, Weaver, Puck, Tinker, or Furion, for example). The final nail in the coffin is that he's completely useless when trying to crack a T3, because, again, there are no trees for him to use any of his spells with any effectiveness.

As for Bloodseeker, he's also seen as one of those pubstomp heroes that just doesn't bring anything to the table in a competitive setting. He has a silence that's tricky to use because it greatly buffs the target's right click and two passives, with an ult that's one of the easiest spells to counter in the game (carry a tp, which any good player (and all pros) will always do). He has good agility gain, but no abilities that actually help him make use of it. There are simply far better heroes out there that can give you what Bloodseeker gives you and more (or, hell, just build an Orchid, then pick whatever hero you want and he's already better than BS).

#36 Posted by RedCream (704 posts) -

I played both for a great length of time and the main difference I can see is the pacing of the game. LoL moves faster than the methodical Dota 2. That's not to say one is better than the other. It's all about personal preference. LoL, for me, takes a more casual approach eliminating all the busywork (denying, teleport scrolls, secret shops) in favor of player convenience which I enjoy more. Dota 2 on the other hand has more micromanagement better suited for pros.

#37 Edited by Euphorio (77 posts) -

Well put @redcream. I just feel like the laning phase in Dota2 is far shorter, though, in favor of split pushing and major 4-man ganks, so at times Dota2 can feel a lot more hectic. Or, at least I feel more stressed for a longer period of time while playing Dota2.

As for @ajamafalous, yeah, I understand the changing meta, but both games contain this characteristic. In LoL, for instance, there was a time where Rengar was a really common pick, but then he got beaten down by Nerfs and now he is NEVER played in Pro play. Metas shift for multiple reasons, and this will always be a part of the MOBA genre.

My argument still stands that these games will always have tier lists, though, with champions who are clearly better primary choices. Someone has to make the first Champion choice in each game, and the variety of champions for this spot, I would argue, is limited. If there is a tiered champion pool, then the game is fundamentally imbalanced. If it was balanced, then the only tier would be "depends on the match-up."

#38 Edited by ThomasG666 (154 posts) -

Well haven't really played any MOBA before Dota 2 tbh. I tried LoL a bit, but couldn't get into it really.

#39 Posted by The_Drizzle (624 posts) -

One of the things that bored me with LoL is the lanes never change. In Dota you can have offensive/defensive tri-lanes, duo mids, completely sacking a lane, etc. in LoL it seemed like lanes were always set in stone, Duo, mid, jungler, solo

#40 Posted by The_Drizzle (624 posts) -

@redcream said:

I played both for a great length of time and the main difference I can see is the pacing of the game. LoL moves faster than the methodical Dota 2. That's not to say one is better than the other. It's all about personal preference. LoL, for me, takes a more casual approach eliminating all the busywork (denying, teleport scrolls, secret shops) in favor of player convenience which I enjoy more. Dota 2 on the other hand has more micromanagement better suited for pros.

Also to your point, a lot of what i here from people switching from LoL to dota is that they are not accustom to different heroes having varying turn speeds etc, which goes back to your point of LoL being a faster game

#41 Posted by ajamafalous (11868 posts) -

@euphorio said:

Well put @redcream. I just feel like the laning phase in Dota2 is far shorter, though, in favor of split pushing and major 4-man ganks, so at times Dota2 can feel a lot more hectic. Or, at least I feel more stressed for a longer period of time while playing Dota2.

As for @ajamafalous, yeah, I understand the changing meta, but both games contain this characteristic. In LoL, for instance, there was a time where Rengar was a really common pick, but then he got beaten down by Nerfs and now he is NEVER played in Pro play. Metas shift for multiple reasons, and this will always be a part of the MOBA genre.

My argument still stands that these games will always have tier lists, though, with champions who are clearly better primary choices. Someone has to make the first Champion choice in each game, and the variety of champions for this spot, I would argue, is limited. If there is a tiered champion pool, then the game is fundamentally imbalanced. If it was balanced, then the only tier would be "depends on the match-up."

First pick/first ban heroes do change, though, and they change as the meta shifts, not as patches come out; while patches can certainly be influential, the meta shfits mostly independently of balance changes. Current heroes that are considered first pick/first ban status include Batrider, Dark Seer (who is starting to fall out of that status, really, over the last two or three months), Keeper of the Light, Magnus, Nyx Assassin, and Wisp, along with the current textbook carries of Lifestealer, Lone Druid, and Gyrocopter, if Team A has a lot of respect for Team B's prolific use of them. These heroes were not always first pick/first ban status, though, and it doesn't have anything to do with them being overpowered on the current patch (which, I'm not sure if you know: generally Dota will go anywhere from 3-9 months between balance patches). The first pick can't counterpick anything as a product of it being the first pick, so the first pick has to be a hero that will generally fit into a lineup that revolves around the current meta. It isn't that these heroes are imbalanced, it's simply that these heroes are the safest or best picks because they have a higher chance of being useful to your team based on the strategy that you plan on running in the upcoming game. Dota drafting is more about picking individual heroes based on the unique skillset that they bring to the table to either help with your strategy or help counter the opponent's as opposed to 'picking a support because we need a support,' 'picking an initiator because we need an initiator,' etc. A lot of the current hero picks happen because of the trend of others. Clockwork is a good counterpick for Magnus because his cogs disrupt Reverse Polarity. Bane is a good counterpick for Gyrocopter, Lone Druid, and Lifestealer (or any two-carry teams) because he can Enfeeble one target, Nightmare another, and Fiend's Grip a third. Batrider is a good counter for Lifestealer because his ult goes through BKB and Rage. Heroes wax and wane based on how it is discovered that they can interact with other heroes, not really based on balance patches (because they don't come nearly as often).

I'm not sure how much professional Dota you've watched, but if it isn't a ton, I really encourage you to watch some drafts on Ayesee's twitch channel, who is in my opinion the best Dota commentator. He does a very good job of analyzing the team comps and laning/teamfight options of each team as they pick their heroes, and what the other team might hope to ban out or counterpick with.

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