Is Nintendo "future-proofing" their games? Wii HD coming?

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#51 Posted by Emilio (3380 posts) -

You guys are all dumb and don't know anything about anything!! 
I am going to listen to Kidz Bop 17 now.

#52 Posted by Willy105 (4688 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @Willy105:   Duh.  You're not making your stance any clearer with THAT kind of stupidity. "
It's close to what you are doing. Listen, emulators today can do tons of things, but one thing they can't do is things that a human being has to create first.
 
The emulator can't add things to a game, it can only use what it has and re-interpret them in a way that the player wants within the realm of possibility. A blocky hand won't get smoother in HD resolutions. A low-res texture won't get high res in HD. You may be able to smooth the image and make it prettier, but it can't change it. 
 
It's how it always has been, and it's why this topic exists.
#53 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Willy105: 
 
Whether or not you agree with me, your evidence of Wii HD in the wings is based on a third party emulator which you don't know the inner workings of.  That at the very least should indicate that you're not in a strong position to make the claims that you're trying to make.
 
You don't know how emulation work and you certainly don't know the difference between LLE and HLE.  MAME is LLE, it completely 100% (or as close as is humanly possible) emulates the host machine.  Dolphin and UltraHLE are HLE, they do not even remotely try to properly emulate the hardware, what they do is basically translate instructions from their host system reverse engineered understanding to what is close to or equivalent for the target platform.  HLE often adds things to the emulated experience as a by product of the translation process as I referred to in the case EPSXE and Perspective Correction.  In Playstation emulation terms Connectix Virtual Game Station is LLE while EPSXE is HLE.  
 
HLE is always faster than LLE, but LLE is ALWAYS more accurate than HLE.  
 
You're taking HLE (therefore inaccurate emulation) of Wii via Dolphin as evidence of the Wii HD.  That's just crazy.
#54 Posted by Willy105 (4688 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @Willy105:   Whether or not you agree with me, your evidence of Wii HD in the wings is based on a third party emulator which you don't know the inner workings of.  That at the very least should indicate that you're not in a strong position to make the claims that you're trying to make.  You don't know how emulation work and you certainly don't know the difference between LLE and HLE.  MAME is LLE, it completely 100% (or as close as is humanly possible) emulates the host machine.  Dolphin and UltraHLE are HLE, they do not even remotely try to properly emulate the hardware, what they do is basically translate instructions from their host system reverse engineered understanding to what is close to or equivalent for the target platform.  HLE often adds things to the emulated experience as a by product of the translation process as I referred to in the case EPSXE and Perspective Correction.  In Playstation emulation terms Connectix Virtual Game Station is LLE while EPSXE is HLE.    HLE is always faster than LLE, but LLE is ALWAYS more accurate than HLE.    You're taking HLE (therefore inaccurate emulation) of Wii via Dolphin as evidence of the Wii HD.  That's just crazy. "
You are missing the point greatly.
 
I am not sure how else I can explain it to you. You are talking about something completely different of which I am talking about and what this thread is about. It doesn't matter how the emulator processes the game, the game will always stay the same. The differences between Star Wars and Star Wars Special Edition was not achieved by a new projector or being ported to digital format. It was made by actual changes by George Lucas. An emulator can't create a better version of a texture, it can only use the one it has and smooth it up a bit to make it more enjoyable to the human eye.
 
I am not sure how many times I have to repeat it. The 'evidence' of Wii HD is because of the things the developers did, not of what the emulator did. If you know so much about emulators, then you should know what I am talking about.
#55 Posted by Sil3n7 (1177 posts) -
@Meowayne said:
" NSMBWii is a 300mb game that is based on the DS game's engine. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't reduce asset size because there was no damn need to do it? "
Um... developers wouldn't even bother to work in that high of a resolution if they didn't need to. Making 2d games in HD takes a lot more time and resources. I think there is a big conspiracy here...
#56 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Willy105 said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @Willy105:   Whether or not you agree with me, your evidence of Wii HD in the wings is based on a third party emulator which you don't know the inner workings of.  That at the very least should indicate that you're not in a strong position to make the claims that you're trying to make.  You don't know how emulation work and you certainly don't know the difference between LLE and HLE.  MAME is LLE, it completely 100% (or as close as is humanly possible) emulates the host machine.  Dolphin and UltraHLE are HLE, they do not even remotely try to properly emulate the hardware, what they do is basically translate instructions from their host system reverse engineered understanding to what is close to or equivalent for the target platform.  HLE often adds things to the emulated experience as a by product of the translation process as I referred to in the case EPSXE and Perspective Correction.  In Playstation emulation terms Connectix Virtual Game Station is LLE while EPSXE is HLE.    HLE is always faster than LLE, but LLE is ALWAYS more accurate than HLE.    You're taking HLE (therefore inaccurate emulation) of Wii via Dolphin as evidence of the Wii HD.  That's just crazy. "
You are missing the point greatly.
 
I am not sure how else I can explain it to you. You are talking about something completely different of which I am talking about and what this thread is about. It doesn't matter how the emulator processes the game, the game will always stay the same. The differences between Star Wars and Star Wars Special Edition was not achieved by a new projector or being ported to digital format. It was made by actual changes by George Lucas. An emulator can't create a better version of a texture, it can only use the one it has and smooth it up a bit to make it more enjoyable to the human eye.  I am not sure how many times I have to repeat it. The 'evidence' of Wii HD is because of the things the developers did, not of what the emulator did. If you know so much about emulators, then you should know what I am talking about. "
You are just wrong.  There isn't enough interest for me to tell you how or why you're wrong but you just are.
 
Take some time and learn about emulation before you fire back yet another completely fucking wrong answer where you try to prove your argument.
 
Investigate the differences between LLE and HLE and how the do indeed give very different results OK?
 
I'm done trying to help you understand.
#57 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Sil3n7 said:
" @Meowayne said:
" NSMBWii is a 300mb game that is based on the DS game's engine. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't reduce asset size because there was no damn need to do it? "
Um... developers wouldn't even bother to work in that high of a resolution if they didn't need to. Making 2d games in HD takes a lot more time and resources. I think there is a big conspiracy here... "
That's also wrong.  To call New Super Mario Bros a 2D game is incorrect.  It's 3D game played in two dimensions.  And it doesn't a lot more time and resources.  ALL developers for ANY platform these days work in high resolution and then scale the out back down to lower resolutions accordingly.  This is as true for textures as it is 3D elements as it is for particles.
#58 Posted by Sil3n7 (1177 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @Sil3n7 said:
" @Meowayne said:
" NSMBWii is a 300mb game that is based on the DS game's engine. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't reduce asset size because there was no damn need to do it? "
Um... developers wouldn't even bother to work in that high of a resolution if they didn't need to. Making 2d games in HD takes a lot more time and resources. I think there is a big conspiracy here... "
That's also wrong.  To call New Super Mario Bros a 2D game is incorrect.  It's 3D game played in two dimensions.  And it doesn't a lot more time and resources.  ALL developers for ANY platform these days work in high resolution and then scale the out back down to lower resolutions accordingly.  This is as true for textures as it is 3D elements as it is for particles. "
You are completely wrong. You know how much longer it takes to create pixel art in High Definition? Yes it is true that mario and the enemies are rendered in 3d that doesn't change the fact most of the game is in 2d.
#59 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Sil3n7 said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @Sil3n7 said:
" @Meowayne said:
" NSMBWii is a 300mb game that is based on the DS game's engine. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't reduce asset size because there was no damn need to do it? "
Um... developers wouldn't even bother to work in that high of a resolution if they didn't need to. Making 2d games in HD takes a lot more time and resources. I think there is a big conspiracy here... "
That's also wrong.  To call New Super Mario Bros a 2D game is incorrect.  It's 3D game played in two dimensions.  And it doesn't a lot more time and resources.  ALL developers for ANY platform these days work in high resolution and then scale the out back down to lower resolutions accordingly.  This is as true for textures as it is 3D elements as it is for particles. "
You are completely wrong. You know how much longer it takes to create pixel art in High Definition? Yes it is true that mario and the enemies are rendered in 3d that doesn't change the fact most of the game is in 2d. "
Have you played New Super Mario Bros?  How much of it is pixel art?  All the characters are 3D and only the platforms and parallax backdrops are 2D.  Do you actually do any pixel are yourself?  Because I'd hardly call the stuff in NSMB difficult. Would you?  As if resolutions matter when you're making elements which are going to overlayed on texel spaces.
#60 Edited by Diamond (8634 posts) -
@torus: 

@SeriouslyNow:


 
torus is absolutely right.  The game doesn't use tessellation and emulators aren't adding it in, hardware or software.  That's just not how it works.  And you are talking out of your ass on that point, SeriouslyNow...  Maybe you're thinking of LOD?  I doubt they're even using LOD for character / enemy models however.
 

@SeriouslyNow

said:

Have you played New Super Mario Bros?  How much of it is pixel art?  All the characters are 3D and only the platforms and parallax backdrops are 2D.  Do you actually do any pixel are yourself?  Because I'd hardly call the stuff in NSMB difficult. Would you?  As if resolutions matter when you're making elements which are going to overlayed on texel spaces.

You're right on that point.  I agree with most of the fundamental points you're trying to tell Willy.  There's a far easier way to put it : higher image quality = more asset quality perception.
#61 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Diamond said:
" @torus: 

@SeriouslyNow:


 
torus is absolutely right.  The game doesn't use tessellation, hardware or software.  That's just not how it works.  And you are talking out of your ass on that point, SeriouslyNow...  Maybe you're thinking of LOD? "
 
I never said the game does tessellation, don't misquote me.  I said that when you choose use HLE emulation (which is not emulating the bare metal but rather approximating one request of the orgina system to another of the host system which can equal in operation) and also choose a higher target resolution, you cannot be sure what the target res change will do the onscreen objects in terms of triangle counts. LoD is also a form of tessellation because meshes and exchange at different ranges of distance from the camera.  In LoD's case the tessellation is done manually, much in the same way that mipmaps can be done manually in certain ranges from the camera.  I'm saying that it's possible that the devs used some funky algorithm to make those scaled objects look nicer as they were scaled up from 720x480 to 1920x1080 along the bitplane objects to create a cohesive looking HLE output.  
 
The Chanka devs did it with Chankast, a Dreamcast emulator and that was partially LLE (image reader, sound and other specifics which required crucial timing accuracy to prevent crashes) and partially HLE in terms of its screen renderer.  Lots of emulators approximate the various aspects of the real hardware and their output, while often stunning, isn't really that accurate and I've trying to convince Willy that his basis for WiiHD potential is folly if he believes an HLE screen rendered with high Aniso and FSAA is a reflection of one game showing WiiHD future planning.  ALL the games that work in Dolphin, GCN included look a lot better @ 1080P but the way they look is an approximation which doesn't prove anything other than Dolphin can make games look better than their original console can.  
 
That's all I was trying to say.
#62 Posted by Diamond (8634 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
 I never said the game does tessellation, don't misquote me.  I said that when you choose use HLE emulation (which is not emulating the bare metal but rather approximating one request of the orgina system to another of the host system which can equal in operation) and also choose a higher target resolution, you cannot be sure what the target res change will do the onscreen objects in terms of triangle counts. LoD is also a form of tessellation because meshes and exchange at different ranges of distance from the camera.  In LoD's case the tessellation is done manually, much in the same way that mipmaps can be done manually in certain ranges from the camera.  I'm saying that it's possible that the devs used some funky algorithm to make those scaled objects look nicer as they were scaled up from 720x480 to 1920x1080 along the bitplane objects to create a cohesive looking HLE output.    The Chanka devs did it with Chankast, a Dreamcast emulator and that was partially LLE (image reader, sound and other specifics which required crucial timing accuracy to prevent crashes) and partially HLE in terms of its screen renderer.  Lots of emulators approximate the various aspects of the real hardware and their output, while often stunning, isn't really that accurate and I've trying to convince Willy that his basis for WiiHD potential is folly if he believes an HLE screen rendered with high Aniso and FSAA is a reflection of one game showing WiiHD future planning.  ALL the games that work in Dolphin, GCN included look a lot better @ 1080P but the way they look is an approximation which doesn't prove anything other than Dolphin can make games look better than their original console can.    That's all I was trying to say.
You still misunderstand how resolution and LOD work.  The Wii emulator will not add tessellation, period (if it had any form of tessellation support, we'd know it, and there'd be options to enable or disable it).  Without software tessellation support (that is, in the assets themselves) it'll never look right, the Chankast support of TruForm was a one-off.  Maybe in the 'distant' future it will become more practical.  Either way the point still stands, this emulator is NOT using tessellation.  Increasing resolution doesn't necessarily increase LOD.  Level of detail is NOT a form is tessellation.  Tessellation could be said to be a form of LoD, however.
 
I understand your intentions were fine, but when you start confusing the facts it doesn't help anyone.  Your best argument was how as emulators for Playstation didn't mean Sony was going to bring out a PlaystationHD, so do these Wii emulator images not refer to a WiiHD.
 
As I said in a much earlier post in this thread, making a WiiHD wouldn't be as simple as running an emulator.  The amount of software engineering to do so (without emulation) would be incredible.  To just use emulation they'd need to sell WiiHDs at >$1000.
#63 Posted by Willy105 (4688 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
You are just wrong.  There isn't enough interest for me to tell you how or why you're wrong but you just are.  Take some time and learn about emulation before you fire back yet another completely fucking wrong answer where you try to prove your argument.  Investigate the differences between LLE and HLE and how the do indeed give very different results OK?  I'm done trying to help you understand. "
Really, I appreciate you trying to help me understand something that is completely off-topic, but you still derailed the conversation so that you don't talk about we were talking about in the first place. You keep trying to talk about something completely different, and I see you don't want to talk about what this whole thing is about.
 
@SeriouslyNow said:
Have you played New Super Mario Bros?  How much of it is pixel art?  All the characters are 3D and only the platforms and parallax backdrops are 2D.  Do you actually do any pixel are yourself?  Because I'd hardly call the stuff in NSMB difficult. Would you?  As if resolutions matter when you're making elements which are going to overlayed on texel spaces. "

Now you are just trolling. You are completely derailing the conversation again. NSMBWii doesn't have any pixel art, he was just saying that pixel art is a lot harder to do in high resolutions. Keep trying that and you are going to get flagged.

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