I just need to get a few things off my chest that have really been bugging me lately.  Now please keep in mind through all of this, I was BIG into downloading games for several years so this is not coming from someone without any credibility.  I still do download certain things, such as hard to find music and the like, but whenever I can I grab legit copies of everything I want. 

Basically what it all comes down to is your love of computer games.  Just a base feeling of "I want to wake up tomorrow and feel like this huge chunk of my money sitting next to me is actually worth a damn to someone out there."  You can't pirate hardware and the only way to make sure your $2600 dream machine will be put to good use is if people keep making good games for the PC. It's really not a hard concept but it falls on dead ears to a vast majority of PC gamers. 

I break hackers / pirates / THIEVES down in to 2 categories.  The first think "I can download this shit for free, save my money, and NO ONE will say anything ... so why not do it?!" and I have to admit, stealing stuff that won't get you caught is a rush.  You're getting away with taking someone else’s stuff without repercussion.  But on the lowest level of it all ... you're really stealing someone else's hard work.  Think of something you're really good at for a second.  Now imagine that one thing you're really awesome at was being hawked around by a bunch of people all over just trying to score a few hours of fun before they move on to the next guy.  Not very fun right?  Wouldn't it diminish your passion for doing your favorite skill again if you knew people were just going to steal it?  Put yourself in their shoes!

The second group consists of people that think "These companies are making BILLIONS on these games ... what are a few copies stolen here and there?"  First of all ... it's not a few copies here and there.  Piracy has grown to a level that is daunting to a lot of people making PC games.  Look at the issue of PC Gamer with Crysis: Warhead on the cover.  In it is an interview with Cevat Yerli, one of the designers of the Crysis engine.  He basically goes on to say that the amount of piracy that occurred with Crysis was amazing, disappointing, and he continues on to question the future of PC gaming as a whole.  NEWS FLASH ... that is a developer of one of the most amazingly technical PC EXCLUSIVE games telling us he is really sick of piracy and doesn't know if he'd do it again if given the chance.  Mark one up for the console fan boys because at least they pay money for their games on some level.

WAKE UP! PLEASE!  Stop stealing games ... start paying money for good products.  And don't use the argument "I don't want to waste my money only to find out it's a crap game" ... do your homework on your most anticipated titles!  99.9% of the time you'll find reviews scattered all over the internet for higher profile games days before the game is released to the public.  I don't want to live in a world where all of my favorite games are watered down for consoles before they hit my keyboard ... that will be the day I buy a PS3 / 360 and officially join the goon squad.  But all of this piracy is slowly killing the one industry that not only launched serious gaming, but also is the only home of the TRUE hardcore gamer.  Now if only we could all get behind the platform we claim to love so much. :\

nice rant, i know personally i'd rather buy my games and what not. Hell i just bought the BF 1942 and Vietnam Anthology because i had originals sold mine and wanted to play it again. Now i'm getting ready to buy the Battlefield 2 Anthology...because i sold the original to a friend. Piracy really is horrible. But the problem is your preaching to the wrong crowd, i hope, because the people that need to understand this aren't the legit users its the illegal users.

just trying to spread some kind of word about the abuse of my favorite industry.  it's something i don't see too often ... and who knows ... it might change someone's mind. :)

you wont be disapointed with the Battlefield 2 collection, really awsome! i think your rant Predasus is a fair enough one and wasn't over the top in any fashion, we need more ppl to support PC gaming as a whole! and i've actually been thinking of ways to combat piracy for awhile now without too much luck. Back in the old days, (im talking about first ever pc games on floppys and amiga games) where games actually came with a manul, and the copy protection was to look at a certain page number at a certain number of lines on that page and the pass would be whatever that word was...... Granted PDF's would render this easy to get passed, but it'd definitely be a start really i think..... perhaps maybe not make it the manual, make it some transcript thats printed on the inside of the game box or something to that effect....

I dont think we'll ever combat piracy, but for the ppl that do get pirated copies, if you like the game. go buy it anyway and keep PC gaming alive.....

well i have been thinking about similar types of things VACkillers ... it's a tough thing to think about because 99% of it would just be turned around as an excuse for MORE piracy.  I honestly wouldn't mind buying all of my games online and just skipping the store but that being a long ways off, I don't really see an immediate fix to the piracy problem.  I've always liked the idea of a small USB device that came with the game that when inserted would allow the computer to play the game, but that could begin a whole wave of hardware issues. 

It really is a tough nut to crack.  Basically what it's really going to take is for people to just STOP pirating ... which isn't going to happen if they don't see the impact they're having on the industry they claim to support.

Think part of the problem is that you can litterly do ANYTHING on a PC, their so robust that really nothing limits a PC, so you can pretty much edit / crack / change just about anything there is to do in software and hardware, but i like the idea of a USB drive type device but that of course would raise cost of the games. The issue i personally have with buying games online, like using services such as direct-to-drive stuff, is that it really just depends on the speed of your internet, which speeds are still relatively slot for most ppl and these games are just huge these days and could take like a day or two just to download, depending on how reliable your connection is... Theres always talk about games having advertisments which i've never liked at all, but it could be something some developers could do to get extra money in the pockets to compensate for piracy but its not really an Anit-Piracy way so to speak....

i'll stick with downloading them.

anyone want a blackcats invite?

"i'll stick with downloading them.

anyone want a blackcats invite?
"

I'm proud to say that I still buy my games.

"

just trying to spread some kind of word about the abuse of my favorite industry.  it's something i don't see too often ... and who knows ... it might change someone's mind. :)

"

I buy games and some movies. I usually download movies and use free software or dl the ones i really need. No way in hell Im shelling out $100 for nero or $500 for MS Word

I used to be the same and pirate games all the time. Now I see that PC Gaming is dying and I want to stop that. I have started only pirating games that are really old and I have no other way of finding. Although I still pirate software, as it's not like the companies are going to start developing the programs for Mac :P Plus, I'm not spending $2500 on 3ds Max.

There's a third group that I- as well as many others, I'm sure- fall into:

I don't have an extra 50 dollars to throw into a game that I will spend 5 hours playing (Crysis).

That's not to say I pirate all my games. When I do have the cash, I buy something that I feel is worth the asking price, or if it contains general longevity.

I won't be guilted to stop, either. It's like voting in the sense that your vote doesn't really matter, so long as there are so many others.

It doesn't help when the publishers do stuff like infecting Spore with ScurROM.

That just makes people want to pirate the game. It won't stop the hackers, they'll find a way. It will however piss off legitimate customers enough with the stupid limits to make them pirate instead.

"It doesn't help when the publishers do stuff like infecting Spore with ScurROM.

That just makes people want to pirate the game. It won't stop the hackers, they'll find a way. It will however piss off legitimate customers enough with the stupid limits to make them pirate instead.
"

I agree, great post

Yeah, a bit too rantish but I see where you're coming from.

But you hear the "I simply don't have enough money, but I REALLY want to play games" argument a lot too though

"I used to be the same and pirate games all the time. Now I see that PC Gaming is dying and I want to stop that. I have started only pirating games that are really old and I have no other way of finding. Although I still pirate software, as it's not like the companies are going to start developing the programs for Mac :P Plus, I'm not spending $2500 on 3ds Max.
"

Ok what you say is true but I still support cracks and warez sites and I'll tell you two reasons:
1. Sometimes when you own a cd you download the crack cause you don't want to be carrying your cd case around
2. A game downloaded does not equal a game bought (some people whould not buy the game anyway others are buying to test it, etc.)

And I hate DRM a whole lot!

Also PC gaming is not dying don't believe the hype!

the thing about your rant, however, is that you're giving reasons why it's wrong to hold the value that piracy is OK. the thing about that is that, even if you could absolutely prove that piracy is wrong: it's still going to be there, and the developer is STILL going to have to deal with it. your rant is nothing more than that, a rant.

and eh, i truly believe that it's alright to pirate games, though, but for weird reasons. like, FEAR should technically work fine on my PC and i've heard great things about it, so i downloaded it. i played it for probably a total of half an hour and it was too slow to play unless i turned the settings allllll the way down. needless to say, i deleted it and never played it again after that little bit. i had a similar experience with bioshock. i would've hated myself if i dropped down 100$ on 2 games that i can't even play.

but, at the same time, every game that i regularly play, i've bought. companies like valve don't need to embrace piracy because you do truly need to BUY the game in order to play it online. TF2 and CS:S are incredibly great fun, and i think it's awesome how i can drop down 40$ and get both of them and have hours upon hours upon hours of enjoyment.

eh. blah.

"Ok what you say is true but I still support cracks and warez sites and I'll tell you two reasons:
1. Sometimes when you own a cd you download the crack cause you don't want to be carrying your cd case around
2. A game downloaded does not equal a game bought (some people whould not buy the game anyway others are buying to test it, etc.)

And I hate DRM a whole lot!

Also PC gaming is not dying don't believe the hype!
"

"chililili said:

"Ok what you say is true but I still support cracks and warez sites and I'll tell you two reasons:
1. Sometimes when you own a cd you download the crack cause you don't want to be carrying your cd case around
2. A game downloaded does not equal a game bought (some people whould not buy the game anyway others are buying to test it, etc.)

And I hate DRM a whole lot!

Also PC gaming is not dying don't believe the hype!
"

People just use those as excuses to pirate..but I do support Cracks though because I find it to just be a pain in the @$$ to have to have to keep track of all my discs and find them each time I want to play
"

"nevereathim said:

"chililili said:

"Ok what you say is true but I still support cracks and warez sites and I'll tell you two reasons:
1. Sometimes when you own a cd you download the crack cause you don't want to be carrying your cd case around
2. A game downloaded does not equal a game bought (some people whould not buy the game anyway others are buying to test it, etc.)

And I hate DRM a whole lot!

Also PC gaming is not dying don't believe the hype!
"

People just use those as excuses to pirate..but I do support Cracks though because I find it to just be a pain in the @$$ to have to have to keep track of all my discs and find them each time I want to play
"

Yeah I actually broke my diablo II play disc so I have to download one to install and play. My biggest argument against any sort of control is my Warcraft III cd case which broke the front part so I lost my cd=key and now I cna't play in battle-net even though I have frozen throne with a correct cd-ket it tells me I got  apirated one (because i get the WCIII  key off the internet) so it really sucks.
"

Only way to stop piracy is for the legislators and law enforcement to wake up and round up those who release cracks and warez and make a nice example of them by incarcerating them for like 15 years.
Well maybe not, but ISPs should aid the government agencies or Batman and empower them by working to provide the addresses of those who release or download illegal software.
The way of thinking involved in this whole getting away with stealing is part of the reason why the US is suffering from sub-prime crisis and credit card crunch; people think it is okay to acquire something without PAYING for it. it simply does not work. If you'd rather play a lyre while everything around you is burning down, well go ahead. When all PC gaming consist of MMORPGs and episodic console hand me downs and Windows LIVE1!!1 casual crap and East European artsy indie social experiments and StarCraft, Half-Life, Diablo, you know who among you are to blame.

On the other hand, developers should not whine about the sales that are lost to piracy and instead making a statement game deserving of being supported so when it goes bankrupt there is at least a murmur of guilt from the idiots. But don't worry, talented developers will find their employment pretty soon elsewhere; they are a pretty close-knit group. Sure, it is quite possible that piracy crippled your supposed multi-million dollar blockbuster (all concocted in marketing fantasy and hype). But in the example of Crysis, the main part of the reason it did not sell the way they expected it to sell (by the way it sold more than a million copies, and this guy is whining?) is that nobody could play the damn game due to its astronomically obscene hardware requirements. Coming from a supposed veteran developer of FPS, what the heck were they smoking expecting people to put up with sub 30 fps in a freaking FPS game? There are a plenty of games without draconian DRMs and copy-protection and carved enough sale out of niche market to support themselves like Stardock. And what with the tried and true method of baiting, make the retail boxes fancy and something of a desirable object by including spiral bound colour manuals, pewter figures, soundtrack CD, pieces of the Great Wall of China, stationary in your office, etc. Have the keys to be registered online for up to date patches and community tournaments with prizes, meet and greet at expos, etc. Be creative and sell yourselves to pry their hard-earned money from their fingers. Look how zealous some of these console fanboys are: raise a few of them for yourselves and let them do the dirty work of viral marketing for you. Or simply make your games free and load them with advertisements and 'special offers'.

It is another question of who would influence the other first to 'rejuvenate' the PC gaming. Would it be consicentious consumers who pay for their entertainment and get another developer a Ferrari, or compassionate developers or publishers doing all they can to make good games and market them smartly not treating every potential consumer as thieves. But the argument may be for naught, since consoles nowadays are nothing but PCs specialized for gaming.

"I'm proud to say that I still buy my games."

The reason for my post was not to state that PC gaming is in any way shape or form dying per say ... however look at us compared to PS3 / 360 releases. Almost every game that would have been released on PC exclusively and then ported to consoles is now done the other way around! Am I the only one that remembers a time when us PC gamers got our shot FIRST and then everyone else got the "special edition bonus content"? Come on guys ... coffee is on ... piracy is mainly to blame for this shifting trend in gaming. You're all posting these ignorant posts defending why you pirate games, yet not a single one of you lists a legitimate reason.

"I hate DRM / Secure Rom"

That's nice ... I hate Coca-Cola ... I choose not to purchase or drink Coca-Cola because I feel that it sucks. I don't run down to the store and steal cases of coke because it pisses me off they use a secure cap to prevent people from poisoning me on their soda bottles. That's stupid*... and so is your argument. The software they use is put there mainly to assure that at least a FEW people can't hack their games ... and beyond a few initial issues that were drummed up by piracy groups,THERE HAVE BEEN NO MAJOR ISSUES WITH SECURE ROM OR ANY DRM FOR THAT MATTER SINCE THEY BEGAN USING IT FOR PC GAMES!!!!!! Stop listening to idiots on forums that claim SecureRom ate their discs, or that guy who can't run a game, so he blames DRM. "OMG but solitaire runs so smooth! Why the fuck won't Bioshock load?! What is this MYSTERY software it asks me to install? Secure Rom?!?!? OMG it must be preventing me from playing my games! I'd better post this on a forum because it's really important!" ... just stop.

"Piracy is going to happen no matter what"

Wow ... think about that statement for a quick second. That's basically like saying "Everyone else is doing it!" ... what are we .. 12? Do I REALLY have to bring out the classic argument "If all your friends jumped off a bridge ..."? Sure that jump might land you in a bunch of cool free content, but you forget about the 50 or so people you kicked in the face on the way down. Now THAT'S the American way ... way to go! Quit being adolescent and think about someone else other than yourself for a second and then use that iota of remorse you might feel to click the cancel button on those 12 torrents you've got going.

"I've got no money! I can't AFFORD to pay for games!"

THEN YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SPENT MONEY ON A COMPUTER CAPABLE OF PLAYING GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE! And if you're so broke ... what the hell are you doing sitting around playing videos games all day for anyways? That would be the LAST thing on my mind if I really was that strapped for cash! I'm no Mr. Money Bags but if I really want something ... I do this cool thing called SAVING and ANTICIPATING EXPENSES which seems to be a huge concept to people that pose this argument. Money is not something that is meant to be spent on things you buy on a whim ... you plan for what is coming ... even if it's a week in advance so you know what you can afford. I know it's REAL hard to not touch that money for a whole day ... those Doritos are looking AMAZING ... i know ... but chill out honcho ... games > calories. And you just might feel a little better about yourself in the end ...

/end rant numero dos

"Piracy is going to happen no matter what" 

Wow ... think about that statement for a quick second.  That's basically like saying "Everyone else is doing it!" ... what are we .. 12?  Do I REALLY have to bring out the classic argument "If all your friends jumped off a bridge ..."?  Sure that jump might land you in a bunch of cool free content, but you forget about the 50 or so people you kicked in the face on the way down.  Now THAT'S the American way ... way to go!  Quit being adolescent and think about someone else other than yourself for a second and then use that iota of remorse you might feel to click the cancel button on those 12 torrents you've got going.

i'm sorry my sarcastic banter did not live up to your standards ... the bottom line is ... the argument turns in on itself ... it's a revolving door and an easy defense mechanism to hide behind.

let me just start by saying " I fully agree that piracy need to stop and its not a good thing !!! "
but i do not believe the death.. or the so called state of pc gaming is not fully to blame on piracy.
sure.. you can say that without piracy the industry would be doing allot better... and we as users would maybe even benefit from it..

however if you look at the closer picture there is more going on that meets the eye..

• first .. besides pc gaming industry we see piracy sadly these days on almost all the consoles [ except the ps3 so far ] yet they still seem to be doing pretty well..
  we still see loads of games for example coming out for the Xbox 360
• hardware limitations and lack of knowledge ... sure as an install base the pc would beat the ps3,ps2,wii,xbox,xbox360 and all the other consoles combined.. yet that doesn't mean that every pc can play all the games that come out on it.. or worst yet... does the person who owns that pc actually know the difference between an onboard graphics card and a separate gpu card that is more dedicated.. the answer is mostly no... people end up buying games not knowing if it will run or not.. and if it doesn't they get discouraged to making future pc game purchases.
  
• am not sure is this is everywhere .. but in some country's when you buy empty cd's or dvd's some of the money you pay for it is actually tax that the calculated and they pay back to the record company and software company cause they know the discs will be used for pirating music or movies.. and software.. so some company's get their money then even if you pirate
  

Freaking excellent post man.  I could not agree more and it drives me nuts how these people pirating the games are contributing to a very large chunk of PC Gaming's decline.  I love the PC as a platform, I just don't seem to have as good as a time on consoles anymore.  I mean, I'm not a fanboy by anymeans...in fact I still get enjoyment out of setting some of my more fanboyish friends straight when they start rambling off crap about how one console is like a god compared to another. 

I'm just glad were seeing thins like Steam coming around, with companies like Valve not just throwing us stale console ports.

Uh I really hate people who pirate. my friend thinks he has more important things to spend his money on so hell steal games

A+ Post.

Proud to say that I pay for all of my games. Support what you love.

Yes, I am sure that most people (copefeully most) know that its wrong and shouldnt be done. I dont do it and i beleive its wrong, the sad thing is that not everyone one does and those few people who do it are ruining it for everyone else. I think that its safe to say that PC gaming is going into a dark place unless sumthing changes. I beleive that valve is doing it the best way with steam. As far as I know, you cant pirate a game avalable through steam. You can either buy alot of steam games through either steam or retail and thats great. Its great for everyone. but the bad thing is that its not practicle for everycomany to have its own version of steam. If there was an open sorce of steam that aloud all developers to release their games either online or through retail and then use that app to stop pirating. I know it might not be possible or practicle but I think it would help with the issue.

But no matter what, people need to stop pirating games otherwise the games that we know and love wont be arround for much longer.

"The sad fact is people who pirate software really don't care about the industry or those they are affecting. They only thing about themselves. Selfishness is probably the biggest flaw in our society and the root of a lot of problems, including pirating."

The only copy protection i cant stand is StarForce because it breaks your hardware.... but its a tough protection to crack just like the online validations every week or so are tough aswell....  just thought i'd put that in lol, and this thread is getting to be quite big, go away for a day and theres like 30 posts now heh.....  Quite a lot of good points have been made by everybody really

Kind of sucks that I got here late, as now I'm writing in several sub-replies. But, it's my general viewpoint on the subject, so try to read it was a whole. And while I do intend to predominantly "defend" a lot of thing that are associated with piracy, I do take the stand of purchasing my games. However, I will willingfully play the antagonist here if I have to.

You can't pirate hardware and the only way to make sure your $2600 dream machine will be put to good use

Now imagine that one thing you're really awesome at was being hawked around by a bunch of people all over just trying to score a few hours of fun before they move on to the next guy.  Not very fun right?    .....   amount of piracy that occurred with Crysis was amazing

where games actually came with a manual, and the copy protection was to look at a certain page number at a certain number of lines

Also as far as PC games being pirated go I think in the years to come that number will start falling, digital distribution clients, like steam, are the future of PC games. Yes Steam games can still be pirated but all online features become void and there is now way to get updates and fix bugs

ISPs should aid the government agencies or Batman and empower them by working to provide the addresses

So here is the plan:  Give all pirates negatives.

It sounds cynical, and i don't encourage or condone piracy, but its something that seems to go on in every major industry, i don't think it can be stopped completely, movies are pirated, clothes are counterfeited, music is pirated.

I guess publishers and developers need to reward or convince people to buy their product, special editions, better collectible cases and manuals might encourage people not to pirate it, i really don't know how it can be reduced though, i think its proven a good product that has sufficient marketing sells. its a shame that crappy products with over the top marketing sell far more than better counterparts sometimes, its a strange industry, but it seems to function much like the music industry, you have the casual mass marketed crap, and you have the true art that the connesiours know about

Gamers just need to support the industry and ignore the pirates, inform the casuals as often as possible about great games, convert as many people into hardcore gamers as possible.

I put all my money into the video game industry.. I think I should have dibs on everything I don't have money left to buy.

So here is the plan:  Give all pirates negatives.

Oh yeah, that's real mature. Let's be ignorant of ideas that object to ours!"

"I put all my money into the video game industry.. I think I should have dibs on everything I don't have money left to buy.
"

"I have trouble respecting someone's "idea" that involves the larceny of other's Intellectual property.  Should I really treat them maturely?  Because they certainly aren't acting very mature themselves.
Besides, the negatives are a means-to-an-end.  I strive to create an environment where people look down upon pirating, rather than turn a blind eye and say, "well, we can't do anything to stop it".  No, maybe we can't physically stop anyone from pirating, but at least we can make them feel guilty about it.
"

"Agentfred said:

"I have trouble respecting someone's "idea" that involves the larceny of other's Intellectual property.  Should I really treat them maturely?  Because they certainly aren't acting very mature themselves.
Besides, the negatives are a means-to-an-end.  I strive to create an environment where people look down upon pirating, rather than turn a blind eye and say, "well, we can't do anything to stop it".  No, maybe we can't physically stop anyone from pirating, but at least we can make them feel guilty about it.
"

I don't see how piracy warrants the classification of immature. Possibly immoral, but then, by whose standards? Yours and others who share the idea of piracy being wrong. The people who think the proper way to deal with different ideas is through ignorance. That's what the negative feature does, you know? Hides the persons post, their opinion, their idea. Something I don't think should be prevalent in ANY community. It's censorship(something we gamers think so negatively of) and isn't the way to go about the changing of a persons viewpoint.

You don't have to respect their opinion, but respect their right to express it. And if you don't like it, don't censor it, but instead offer a rational argument as you did with Rely's post.
"

but i think we can all agree on one thing, piracy is bad for everyone in the end... weither you reap the reprocussions now or later, it doesn't really matter, in the end, we'll all pay for it eventually..... in one way or another......

"but i think we can all agree on one thing, piracy is bad for everyone in the end... whether you reap the repercussions now or later, it doesn't really matter, in the end, we'll all pay for it eventually..... in one way or another......
"

:) i'm glad i started this thread and it hasn't turned into an utter shit storm yet.  :)

When I think of the right things to say, I'll come back to this ... until then ... keep it up kiddies!  ;)

there is some seriously valid conversation going on here.

yea I agree Predasus, i've kind of run out of things to say myself.... cant really think of many idea's for possible solutions that hasn't already been said really, but if i think of something i'll post it heh...

"It sounds cynical, and i don't encourage or condone piracy, but its something that seems to go on in every major industry, i don't think it can be stopped completely, movies are pirated, clothes are counterfeited, music is pirated.

I guess publishers and developers need to reward or convince people to buy their product, special editions, better collectible cases and manuals might encourage people not to pirate it, i really don't know how it can be reduced though, i think its proven a good product that has sufficient marketing sells. its a shame that crappy products with over the top marketing sell far more than better counterparts sometimes, its a strange industry, but it seems to function much like the music industry, you have the casual mass marketed crap, and you have the true art that the connesiours know about

Gamers just need to support the industry and ignore the pirates, inform the casuals as often as possible about great games, convert as many people into hardcore gamers as possible.

"