PC Gamers deserve the console treatment, not convict treatment.

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#1 Edited by nickhimself (71 posts) -

I've logged more hours PC Gaming than Console gaming by far. I feel like the console players get treated much better than us PC Gamers. Not for nothing, since the huge "EVERY PC GAMER IS A THIEF AND PIRATE" debate always rages on, with a fair amout of accuracy to some of the claim. 
 
I feel like we're being shunned without ever being given a proper chance. Yes, piracy on computer games is so much easier to accomplish than on consoles. However, be that as it may it's unfair to assume each and every PC Gamer is going to straight up steal a game just because they can. At least, i'd like to believe that isn't the case. 
 
How do I feel like we're being mis-treated specifically? Game demos. Almost every single new title on the 360 or PS3 receives a demo first. Over half of the most recent PC titles that I'd had interest in do not have a demo nor do the publishers plan on releasing one. Why is that? If a game has a demo on the consoles but the same game has no demo on the PC how do you think any PC Gamer can reliably tell whether the game will A) be worth the asking price, or B) even run on their system. 
 
My issue is mainly with B. PC's are not built alike. My PC is aging and I find myself thinking more and more about upgrading to newer hardware. A handful of games recently have performed so poorly on my system that I've either stopped playing them or have had to turn the settings down so low that my eyes hurt. I borrowed a title from a friend to test its compatibility on my system since there was no demo available, lo-and-behold I neither liked the game nor did it perform well.  
 
Sure, I could have pirated the game in question, but I'm an honest gamer who would much rather purchase a game I feel is worth the asking price than steal it and be unable to enjoy all of its features. Also, almost all of my purchased are through Steam these days, so being able to game with friends is pretty great. 
 
Had there been a demo for this game I would have been able to tell right away that this game was A) not for me and B) choppy and sluggish. 
 
With that much risk involved in PC Gaming it would behoove a developer to create a demo for their PC crowd. Especially if there are demos available for consoles already.  
 
 
Does anyone agree with me? If you're opposed, i'm interested in hearing exactly why you think developing a demo for PC Games is a poor decision for developers to make. I'm pretty cynical of most things, but I don't think everyone steals games just because they can. There are many contributing factors to the piracy scene.

#2 Posted by ThatFrood (3373 posts) -

See... I would agree with you but... well, they just don't really play pc games. They're not interested in them. And I don't want them to feel forced into playing a game.
So instead I just get pc news from google or somethin'.

#3 Posted by Darkstar614 (1098 posts) -

I think the Demo argument is a good point, and just another reason why people prefer consoles to PC. They know it will run on "their" system.
 
Maybe I'll upgrade to Core i7 to play Metro 2033, with its ridiculous system requirements. -_-

#4 Posted by nickhimself (71 posts) -
@ThatFrood: But the issue i'm talking about isn't with news. It's with performance and likability. You can't honestly say that you've loved every game that's gotten a high score, and hated every game that has received a poor one. And, you could have a decent spec PC and still be unable to play the game because of a hardware issue you don't know how to fix. 
 
THAT's what i'm talking about. Things like that wouldn't be problems if users got demos to test. Being burned a few times because of a non-functioning or terrible game is enough to make some people decide that pirating is easier and cheaper.
#5 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
@nickhimself: 
 
People that pirate will pirate no matter what. I can tell without a demo if a game will run on my system or not. I bought S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat knowing by the specs that it might not run properly and guess what? It didn't. My bad, but it's mine and one day I'll upgrade and there it will be all for me.
#6 Posted by Gamer_152 (14049 posts) -

I don't think every PC gamer is a pirate, that just can't be true, I do agree though that more demos for PC games would be a good thing.

Moderator
#7 Edited by nickhimself (71 posts) -
@Claude:  You've got very little faith in humanity if you think that just because someone may have pirated something at one point or another that they will always and forever pirate everything. 
 
Also: If there had been a demo for STALKER CoP you wouldn't have purchased it until after you upgraded. 
 
 
@Darkstar614  : Don't worry dude, you can play Metro2033 by the year 2033 with its specs.
#8 Posted by onimonkii (2429 posts) -

i think one way to help is to stop looking at it as how you're being treated and just play the games you want to without worrying about that kind of shit.
 
if you don't get mixed up in sensationalizing drm and all that business and just buy and play your games, guess what, you're getting the console treatment you deserve, because that's all console gamers do.
 
your point about demos? totally valid, but also totally unrelated to "the convict treatment". you think they're not giving you demos because... pc gamers pirate things a lot? what?
 
it sucks there aren't more demos for pc games, but at the same time if your issue is more with "can i run this?" than just trying out the game, they do include min/recommended spec with basically every game ever. if you meet the recommended specs and have some weird hardware issue, that's not something a demo would have fixed.

#9 Posted by ThatFrood (3373 posts) -

 @Claude said:

" @nickhimself:   People that pirate will pirate no matter what. "
I used to pirate, now I don't. So... wrong.
#10 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
@ThatFrood said:
"  @Claude said:
" @nickhimself:   People that pirate will pirate no matter what. "
I used to pirate, now I don't. So... wrong. "
@nickhimself said:
" @Claude:  You've got very little faith in humanity if you think that just because someone may have pirated something at one point or another that they will always and forever pirate everything. 
 
Also: If there had been a demo for STALKER CoP you wouldn't have purchased it until after you upgraded. 
 
 
@Darkstar614  : Don't worry dude, you can play Metro2033 by the year 2033 with its specs. "
To both of you. I said "People that will pirate will pirate no matter what", not "People that will pirate will always pirate." 
 
And as for nickhimself, I made the choice to buy CoP, and I've made that choice with other games as well without a demo, some work, some don't. Demos are cool, I love them. RTS demos on the PC are as good as some full fledged games on the consoles if you ask me. 
 
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion doesn't have a demo on consoles same as Fallout 3. Neither of the Assassin's Creed games have demos on consoles. Don't blame it all on the developers and their fear of PCs.
#11 Posted by me3639 (1705 posts) -

Agreed 1,000%.

#12 Posted by ThatFrood (3373 posts) -
@Claude: yeah, I actually reread what you wrote and realized that I had misspoken. I just hoped you wouldn't notice and would let it slide! :P
#13 Posted by Theo1130 (5 posts) -

I would say look at the success of battlefield BC2.  From the start DICE gave it full commitment to the PC version.  The end result is that the PC version sold more than both console versions combined.  If you look at some badly ported games or games that from  the offset were not going to get the optimal PC treatment such as Modernwarfare 2 and Borderlands; they became some of the most pirated games of 09.  What I'm trying to get to is that if developers put a second tier product out, the gamer will react to that accordingly that it is not worth their money and with that perception that there will be no post release support such as fixing bugs, net code optimization and optimizing the engine to run better, then what do they expect, that people will shell out fifty dollars that they cant resell or trade in for a sub standard product.  and that's how games get pirated.  I'm not trying to advocate piracy, just trying to give it perspective, in my opinion, being a person new to PC gaming, i have found it more enjoyable than i though, and it is really bad to see all these sensationalist stories that PC gaming is dead.  Also hopefully Steam coming to Mac will encorage publishers to develop PC/Mac exclusively.

#14 Posted by Haethos (306 posts) -

The bottom line is that the profit generated from the PC market isn't big enough to justify devoting a ton of resources to. While it's true that PC gamers are getting painted with a broad brush, the number of pirates out there is just staggering. Just go onto Demonoid or any other torrent site and just look at the number of downloads that certain torrents have generated. It's enough to make even the most hardened PC-gaming advocate woozy.
 
I used to be a PC gamer, and for some genres, still prefer the PC. But looking at the tea leaves (intrusive DLC, lack of long-term support, etc.), it's just not the 90's and early 2000's anymore. Publishers have a huge console audience who are willing to pay a higher price point and who pirate games at a significantly lower clip.

#15 Posted by Haethos (306 posts) -
@Theo1130 said:

What I'm trying to get to is that if developers put a second tier product out, the gamer will react to that accordingly that it is not worth their money and with that perception that there will be no post release support such as fixing bugs, net code optimization and optimizing the engine to run better, then what do they expect, that people will shell out fifty dollars that they cant resell or trade in for a sub standard product.  and that's how games get pirated.

So you're saying that it's okay to pirate a game because it's not a great port job? This is why developers and publishers are turning their backs on the PC market.
#16 Posted by ajamafalous (11793 posts) -

Absolutely agree that more games need demos.
 

  • I'm interested in trying out Metro 2033 to see how it'll run on my system.
  • Dragon Age was the midweek madness sale on Steam this week. I didn't buy it because there was no demo for me to try, as I've heard the combat is pretty love/hate.
  • The demo for Just Cause 2 unfortunately convinced me not to buy the game until I find it cheap, because I couldn't make it more than 10 minutes in before it crashed on six separate attempts.
#17 Edited by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@ThatFrood said:

" See... I would agree with you but... well, they just don't really play pc games. They're not interested in them. And I don't want them to feel forced into playing a game. So instead I just get pc news from google or somethin'. "

I don't agree.  They do play their PC games.  Brad's a member of the team and pretty happy PC gamer and so is Dave.  I just think Ryan's gigantic ego gets in the way of a balanced point of view.  While I certainly find him entertaining I think he's not a particularly nice or even handed person, if his comments are anything to go by.
 
@Haethos said:
" The bottom line is that the profit generated from the PC market isn't big enough to justify devoting a ton of resources to. While it's true that PC gamers are getting painted with a broad brush, the number of pirates out there is just staggering. Just go onto Demonoid or any other torrent site and just look at the number of downloads that certain torrents have generated. It's enough to make even the most hardened PC-gaming advocate woozy.  I used to be a PC gamer, and for some genres, still prefer the PC. But looking at the tea leaves (intrusive DLC, lack of long-term support, etc.), it's just not the 90's and early 2000's anymore. Publishers have a huge console audience who are willing to pay a higher price point and who pirate games at a significantly lower clip. "
Piracy is just as significant percentage wise on the two market leading consoles as it is with the two most popular handheld gaming devices.  I think you should do some more research because collectively the console and handheld market is MUCH bigger than the PC games market and so collectively there are more console and handheld games being pirated.  Steam is a fine example of PC games retail done properly and it indicates quite clearly that there is still a strong market for PC games.  I think it's quite telling that DICE, a company who doesn't complain that piracy is ending their support of PC, removed SecureROM from their most recent update to their most recent title Battlefield : Bad Company 2.  A title I might also add which they claim was recently outselling the XBOX 360 version when it launched.
#18 Posted by Theo1130 (5 posts) -
@Haethos said:

" @Theo1130 said:

What I'm trying to get to is that if developers put a second tier product out, the gamer will react to that accordingly that it is not worth their money and with that perception that there will be no post release support such as fixing bugs, net code optimization and optimizing the engine to run better, then what do they expect, that people will shell out fifty dollars that they cant resell or trade in for a sub standard product.  and that's how games get pirated.

So you're saying that it's okay to pirate a game because it's not a great port job? This is why developers and publishers are turning their backs on the PC market. "
Im not saying it is ok to pirate games at all, im just stating that this is some of the logic that brings someone to pirate.  If developers want to keep shoveling half assed ports to gamers that would have bought if the game wasn't gimped or had no long term commitment, then the developers and publishers have no one to blame but themselves.  Also the fact that digital versions of pc games don't drop in price as fast as their console counterparts, hell a half assed port of Borderlands sells for 50 bucks on steam, Gearbox can piss off.  Piracy is huge problem, and hopefully they will figure out a way to slow it down, but there will always be people who have no morals and have no problem with piracy.  
#19 Posted by Haethos (306 posts) -
@Theo1130 said:
" @Haethos said:

" @Theo1130 said:

What I'm trying to get to is that if developers put a second tier product out, the gamer will react to that accordingly that it is not worth their money and with that perception that there will be no post release support such as fixing bugs, net code optimization and optimizing the engine to run better, then what do they expect, that people will shell out fifty dollars that they cant resell or trade in for a sub standard product.  and that's how games get pirated.

So you're saying that it's okay to pirate a game because it's not a great port job? This is why developers and publishers are turning their backs on the PC market. "
Im not saying it is ok to pirate games at all, im just stating that this is some of the logic that brings someone to pirate.  If developers want to keep shoveling half assed ports to gamers that would have bought if the game wasn't gimped or had no long term commitment, then the developers and publishers have no one to blame but themselves.  Also the fact that digital versions of pc games don't drop in price as fast as their console counterparts, hell a half assed port of Borderlands sells for 50 bucks on steam, Gearbox can piss off.  Piracy is huge problem, and hopefully they will figure out a way to slow it down, but there will always be people who have no morals and have no problem with piracy.   "
So what you're saying is that Jeff is right and developers should stop making PC versions of games, right? Financially speaking, it doesn't make sense to devote a team to do a "perfect" port job for the PC for most games. Would an awesome port of game X and the relatively small revenue gained from the PC sales even pay for a top developer to devote time to it? Probably not. As a PC gamer, yeah you get jobbed--this is the end result of PC gamers deciding that for any non-AAA title, piracy is justified. 
#20 Posted by Theo1130 (5 posts) -
@Haethos said:
" @Theo1130 said:
" @Haethos said:

" @Theo1130 said:

What I'm trying to get to is that if developers put a second tier product out, the gamer will react to that accordingly that it is not worth their money and with that perception that there will be no post release support such as fixing bugs, net code optimization and optimizing the engine to run better, then what do they expect, that people will shell out fifty dollars that they cant resell or trade in for a sub standard product.  and that's how games get pirated.

So you're saying that it's okay to pirate a game because it's not a great port job? This is why developers and publishers are turning their backs on the PC market. "
Im not saying it is ok to pirate games at all, im just stating that this is some of the logic that brings someone to pirate.  If developers want to keep shoveling half assed ports to gamers that would have bought if the game wasn't gimped or had no long term commitment, then the developers and publishers have no one to blame but themselves.  Also the fact that digital versions of pc games don't drop in price as fast as their console counterparts, hell a half assed port of Borderlands sells for 50 bucks on steam, Gearbox can piss off.  Piracy is huge problem, and hopefully they will figure out a way to slow it down, but there will always be people who have no morals and have no problem with piracy.   "
So what you're saying is that Jeff is right and developers should stop making PC versions of games, right? Financially speaking, it doesn't make sense to devote a team to do a "perfect" port job for the PC for most games. Would an awesome port of game X and the relatively small revenue gained from the PC sales even pay for a top developer to devote time to it? Probably not. As a PC gamer, yeah you get jobbed--this is the end result of PC gamers deciding that for any non-AAA title, piracy is justified.  "
But i would argue that Jeff is right in some of his assertions, even though he was stating that they should give up on making single player games on PC, not PC games all together.  But I would say that it is the non-AAA games and game developers  have capitalized on the lack of support of the major publishers.  Just look the developers of  Killing Floor, Torch Light, and Audio Surf.  their understanding of what PC gamers expect in a game, commitment in content and refinement of the overall experience made them gather a cult following.  How else could you explain games like Stalker, Dawn Of War 2, Metro 2033, Supreme Commander 2, Sins Of A Solar Empire.  And those developers of those games are no where near from what people would consider AAA.  The audience is there, they just need to know that they are getting their getting what they paid for and not getting treated like second class citizens.  I would rather publishers to stop putting out half assed ports than to complain that their half assed port is getting pirated.  And I'm still not underwriting that piracy is a huge problem.
#21 Posted by regnits (39 posts) -

Another good example is the news just in that GTAIV expansions are delayed on PC and PS3 as Sony, yes just Sony wanted some content changed. Now the PC version is delayed too just to make it fair for PS3 owners. This is from Rockstar, did they just forget about the 360 a year earlier? If the PC is ready just get it out the door you are not helping anyone with this move. 

What would Rockstar do if the PC version had a problem do you think the PS3 would be delayed too? I don't think so, luckily it's only a few weeks.    

#22 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

It's all a load of horseshit.  Developers and publishers should try and make us much money as they can with as many different release streams as possible and you know what, that's exactly what they do. Jeff's comment on the matter is just an improperly formed thought and to discuss it in any more detail is like trying to qualify the quality of a fart.

#23 Posted by Asrahn (552 posts) -
Aaalright, this is all in my humble view, no hard feelings? :3
 
I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiment of demos. I bought Supreme Commander back when it was released simply because I am a huge fan of the old Total Annihilation games, and guess what? I bloody hated the game. It was a good idea that seemed awesome on paper, but was executed terribly - and this in turn planted a manner of paranoia in me.
 
So now I'm weighing this way and that for Napoleon: Total War, but the Total War series haven't had a demo out since bloody Shogun, and one of the only ways to actually try the game would in fact be to pirate it. More demos would undoubtedly help out in the "War on Piracy", but the notion of releasing games that are actually finished and doesn't need patching for the coming 6 months to even be playable would help a lot as well. PC gaming has been a large give-and-take, which is facing a downward spiral, where some people are downloading games out of cheer protest due to the mixture of cost and the general badwill of developers, who in turn pull back dedicated servers and shifts their market away from those people they assraped in the first place. Note that I do not promote piracy in any way (´cept the old fashioned one, YARR), I just want to point out that there are people who are taking an active stance in this manner simply because we've been spoon-fed bullshit for a few years, not because they're lazy/poor/sinister, which is the common view of someone who pirates games. The accessibility, constant overview and feedback of Steam rows in a ton of money, I myself buy the majority of my games there, but it's something a lot of developers choose to turn a blind eye to and instead blame their own behaviour on piracy and the PC community.
 
The developers addapt to the market, indeed, and like SeriouslyNow said, it's all about the money. I can't help but connect what's going on with developers and the PC to the music industry and the frequent whine of music downloading. Pulling your stuff from the PC platform would be equalent to the massive conservatism any attempt at modernization in the music industry faces. God-damned wake-up call: People will find a way around your bullshit. They will either do it illegally, or they won't buy your shit at all if the pain it causes is higher than the pleasure it brings. Good games sell, bad games does not. There are a ton of bloody alternatives to make the transition between having a customer looking at a product and having him buy it go smoothly, but the industry rather closes their eyes and pretend there are none. Spotify has reduced music download immensively, developers of games needs to come up with a smart solution (Steam, cough) that doesn't feel like having a corporate dildo jammed up ones ass whenever we're trying to use their products.
 
So... move your products to the consoles, by all means, but do you really think the people who downloaded it illegally from the start will start buying it there instead? Do you really want to shift the download problem to your precious xboxes and playstations instead of solving it where it stands?
 
To be frank, I'm tired of visiting forums on the net and constantly being told how bad a human being I am, simply because I play games on my PC. The Giantbomb community usually is fairly alright on this, but it's more and more turning towards the open scorn that Gametrailers hold.
 
When it comes to demos I've heard a wide variety of different explanations as of why they don't make them. Honestly though, a demo is a bloody simple thing: It must reflect the game in most of its aspects and it must be fairly short and summarizing. The rest is up to the simple matter of taste and if the game is actually a good one. It doesn't NEED to be bloody spectacular for most of us PC gamers to get hooked, unless the game is entirely about over-the-top stunts and other action oriented bravados (IE: MW2) a montage of the game's mechanics and allowing us to get a taste of the FEEL of the game is enough.
 
As for people behaving like PC gamers are the only ones who download games, please spare me your self-righteous bullshit. Amongst the people I know there is a huge amount who have chipped their consoles and use their PC's for no other purpose than to download games for their gamepad-machines.
 
It's worth noting that I've tried the Supreme Commander 2 demo, one of the few demos around, ironically found on Steam, and I actually loved it. Buying the damn game my next salary. For the record, I have a Wii, a PS3 and a 360, no fanboyism here, just a tired old man.
 
#24 Posted by wwfundertaker (1395 posts) -

The game market has changed so much, i think in a few years only a few niche games will be available on the pc, no more multiplatform games.

#25 Posted by Binman88 (3684 posts) -

I think everyone on the forums should shut up about game sales, the cost of game development, and the cost of porting a game. Firstly, these people probably have no idea what they're talking about and are pulling figures out of the sky. Secondly, we're talking about playing games. Why should it matter that I'm playing a game on a platform where the game sold less or playing it on the platform where the game sells the most? It shouldn't be an issue for the consumer. All customers are important; why should customers in the "most sales" group get better treatment when, at the end of the day, sales figures have no real relevance to anyone but the companies putting out these games?

#26 Posted by ProfessorEss (7253 posts) -

This isn't about whether I agree with the OP or not, it's about the reality of the situation - game publishers are here for the profit, not to cater to us. They're just not going to reconsider what are usually financially based decisions because we think things are "unfair", or we "deserve" it.

At the end of the day: Pick your platform and deal with its pros and cons, or change.

#27 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

There will always be games on the PC, it will not become a niche platform.  The game market hasn't changed at all, the least powerful console is still the leading console as it was with the Atari 2600, as it was with the NES and as it was for PS2 vs the XBOX (the Gamecube was an anomaly, just as SNES was because Nintendo sometimes makes mistakes in the West).  The only thing that makes people who are either too young or to new to the games industry to know the difference think it's changed is just that the last couple of years with the HD console war (the two consoles who still can't shift Wii's market lead I might add) so much media focus has been on Western developers and publishers some of  whom are frankly, a lot of the time, big mouthed media whores who crave attention and also know how to manipulate their audiences well.  This has led to a lot hot air which is confused with valid opinion and has basically made for controversy which the gaming media earns a lot of coin from.  
 
The nature of process is simple : create controversy and people will flock to websites to battle it out with other people who agree or disagree with said controversial opinions.  Look at the Michael Pachter circus for evidence of this.  He's a man who makes often ridiculous claims, some of which turn out to be true, many of which do not and now he has his own show "Pach Attack!"  Why?  Because he creates controversies which feed the demon, which pay the bills. This is exactly the same thing which Barry Kotick uses to create media interest surrounding Activision, only this time his own teachings are being used against him because Karma is a mean bitch when crossed.
 
All the people who get influenced by the drama just do not have good signal to noise ratio yet.  Eventually some will learn to differentiate the bullshit from the facts, but many will not.  We live in the age of a dumbed down generation who love Reality TV and celebrate media whoring above real talent.  It will take some time before this changes.
 
The games companies and people who aren't interested in that kind of bullshit like Nintendo, VALVe, DICE and many others just keep on keeping on, doing what they're good at and earning decent coin without the need to stir up shit because they are industry stalwarts whose success is measurable and impressive in its own right.
 
It's really as simple as that.

#28 Posted by MikkaQ (10261 posts) -
@Binman88 said:
" why should customers in the "most sales" group get better treatment when, at the end of the day, sales figures have no real relevance to anyone but the companies putting out these games? "
 I think you answered your own question there. The companies putting out these games care about sales. When you care a lot about sales, you make a console version that people don't mass-pirate in a day, and generate good ol' revenue. If you're a game company, and you could spend more money on the PC version, to optimize it or whatever, or you could spend the money and resources on the console version that you know for a fact more people will buy, what do you do? When the bottom line is all that matters (and for any for-profit business, this should be true), then it's just more profitable to invest in development for your biggest selling platforms. 
#29 Posted by ApertureSilence (1154 posts) -
@nickhimself: Everything you said is absolutely spot-on, man. I used to be almost exclusively a PC gamer, and started switching to consoles when more and more PC games started shipping with malware and rootkits as DRM (remember Starforce - ugh!). Now I barely play new games on PC at all. I mostly use to to snatch up special Steam sales and '90s classics on GoG.com.
 
Like you, I wouldn't even consider pirating a game if only to try it. The lack of game demos on PC is baffling to me.
#30 Posted by ch13696 (4582 posts) -

I don't know how many times people mentioned this on the forums. Even to developers and publishers. PUT IT ON STEAM. It's that easy. Yeah, your game will still be pirated, but you will have more sales in the beginning and when they have sales. Those pirates that decided not to put out the $50 (or $60 for the greedy publishers) will eventually buy it when it is on sale.

#31 Posted by Funzzo (834 posts) -

I am a PC gamer, sure I have had almost every console known to man but the PC is where I game. To me it seems like PC gaming is changing and not for the better. I remember when 90-95% of the games I bought I bought because I played a demo and liked it. If metro 2033 had a demo and it was good then I would buy it. my options are either pirate the game or buy the game without playing it first. I dont pirate games so thats out and if I dont like the game then I can't take it back. What do I do?  PC 4 EVER!
#32 Posted by Binman88 (3684 posts) -
@XII_Sniper: Yes, that's the obvious state of affairs, but I'm saying that's not how it should be. It's unfair to treat your same customers differently simply because they buy the game for the bigger selling platform, or the lesser selling one. My point is that at the end of the day, a PC customer is just the same as a console customer and should receive a product optimised for their platform of choice.
#33 Posted by MikkaQ (10261 posts) -
@Binman88:  But they're technically not the same. They don't spend the same amount of money as the console buyers. PC gamers say the games are getting more expensive now, but the same is true for console games, and those are still more expensive than PC games. Not only do they cost more, but more people buy them. As any company, I would have to focus my resources on them.   
 
Really it just looks like the industry in a whole is aiming to stop designing for PC, or at least halt any actual progress. No one talks about the latest shader models, or direct Xs with the same amount of care as they used to. Things look like they're coming back to the consoles, probably for keeps this time.
 
The game industry is a business, pure and simple. The way something "should be" or "isn't fair" doesn't fly in business at all.  
 
I want a rainbow I can fly around, doesn't mean I'll get one =(
#34 Posted by JokerSmilez (1293 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
I think it's quite telling that DICE, a company who doesn't complain that piracy is ending their support of PC, removed SecureROM from their most recent update to their most recent title Battlefield : Bad Company 2.  A title I might also add which they claim was recently outselling the XBOX 360 version when it launched. "
Where did you read that? I'm just curious, because I haven't seen any sales numbers yet other than EA saying it's sold 2.3 million total so far and "on pace" to be the biggest seller in March.
#35 Posted by Binman88 (3684 posts) -
@XII_Sniper: I have faith that there are enough people out there who care more about games and where gaming can go in the future, rather than those who just see games as a means to make money, like yourself. You apparently see only the business side, which is a little sad. A future where there is no desire to innovate both in gameplay and graphics, bur rather re-use formulas that work because they're known to sell, is a very bleak future indeed for a gamer. It's a pretty awesome future, though, for the guys interested in making some guaranteed cash, like yourself.
#36 Posted by JokerSmilez (1293 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
the Gamecube was an anomaly, just as SNES was because Nintendo sometimes makes mistakes in the West
Wait...are you saying the SNES was a mistake?
#37 Edited by MikkaQ (10261 posts) -
@Binman88:  One can innovate and be financially successful, but look at this generation. It's the safest generation of games ever. With the huge production costs and budgets games are receiving nowadays, most games DO stick to what's successful and what works. It's the indie market, and small downloadable games that are doing all the innovating for them, but no one else is making any real bold moves.  
 
Look at how weird things got on like the Dreamcast a few years ago, compared to today, there were tons and tons of risks made, and ideas tried out, even in the land of big budgeted games. Look at Seaman, Shenmue, or Jet Set Radio. Even on the PS2, things like Katamari Damacy were actually new and exciting, instead of played out like it is now.  
 
But none of that is going to matter if all the big budget PC games have heavy DRM, and poor support. The market will just wither away slowly. The indie market will always be there, obviously, and doing new things, but companies aren't going to invest supreme chunks of cash into it, so it won't bloom like it should be.
#38 Posted by Jimbo (9767 posts) -
@Asrahn: Well said, sir.
#39 Edited by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@JokerSmilez said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:

I think it's quite telling that DICE, a company who doesn't complain that piracy is ending their support of PC, removed SecureROM from their most recent update to their most recent title Battlefield : Bad Company 2.  A title I might also add which they claim was recently outselling the XBOX 360 version when it launched. "
Where did you read that? I'm just curious, because I haven't seen any sales numbers yet other than EA saying it's sold 2.3 million total so far and "on pace" to be the biggest seller in March. "
Well not sales directly, but they did say that there were more PC players than either console, so I'd say that that relates to sales quite strongly as Battlefield is primarily focussed on MP.
 
@JokerSmilez said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
the Gamecube was an anomaly, just as SNES was because Nintendo sometimes makes mistakes in the West
Wait...are you saying the SNES was a mistake? "
In terms of marketing in the West, yes.  I had both the Megadrive and the SNES but I much prefered my SNES, still SEGA had far better marketing and longevity with the Megadrive/Genesis.  Nintendo suffered a lot for their family friendly image on SNES.
#40 Posted by masternater27 (915 posts) -

I'm just going to throw in that I've torrented PC games before to see how they ran on my PC and bought/ not bought them because of the results.  So yeah, more frequent demos would be nice.  I'm fine with reading system requirements and such, but sometimes if you're barely making it or even in the middle of it it's going to run and looks like shit.  And I really have no idea how they name graphics cards these days.  If I have a higher number card it's worse than a lower number card, because it doesn't have these letters behind it?  ATI and Nvidia should probably streamline their naming process.  I came to PC gaming late, and while I'm fairly nerdy and will read up on graphics cards for awhile, you shouldn't make it so your customers have to research for a couple hours on wikipedia or whatever to figure out what separates your products.

#41 Posted by Trilogy (2636 posts) -

You can't expect a company to develop and produce product on a platform where they get constantly screwed over and not take any precautions because of it. Companies want to make money and they aren't going to sit around and let some dipshit steal from them.
 
Should they find a way to take precautions without screwing over their loyal and law abiding customers? Abso-fucking-lutely. If there's a way to not step on the toes of the guy whose actually paying you for your product then you better figure out how. 
 
Unfortunately as of now, the guy who pirates games is the only winner in the equation.

#42 Posted by Rhaknar (5939 posts) -

this shit again?

#43 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Trilogy said:
" You can't expect a company to develop and produce product on a platform where they get constantly screwed over and not take any precautions because of it. Companies want to make money and they aren't going to sit around and let some dipshit steal from them.   Should they find a way to take precautions without screwing over their loyal and law abiding customers? Abso-fucking-lutely. If there's a way to not step on the toes of the guy whose actually paying you for your product then you better figure out how.   Unfortunately as of now, the guy who pirates games is the only winner in the equation. "
Simply put, the demo for Just Cause 2 made me buy the game on Steam.  Demos work, fucked up DRM and no demo at all doesn't.
#44 Posted by JokerSmilez (1293 posts) -

 
 
@SeriouslyNow said:

" @JokerSmilez said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:

I think it's quite telling that DICE, a company who doesn't complain that piracy is ending their support of PC, removed SecureROM from their most recent update to their most recent title Battlefield : Bad Company 2.  A title I might also add which they claim was recently outselling the XBOX 360 version when it launched. "
Where did you read that? I'm just curious, because I haven't seen any sales numbers yet other than EA saying it's sold 2.3 million total so far and "on pace" to be the biggest seller in March. "
Well not sales directly, but they did say that there were more PC players than either console, so I'd say that that relates to sales quite strongly as Battlefield is primarily focussed on MP.
 
@JokerSmilez said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
the Gamecube was an anomaly, just as SNES was because Nintendo sometimes makes mistakes in the West
Wait...are you saying the SNES was a mistake? "
In terms of marketing in the West, yes.  I had both the Megadrive and the SNES but I much prefered my SNES, still SEGA had far better marketing and longevity with the Megadrive/Genesis.  Nintendo suffered a lot for their family friendly image on SNES. "
Have you seen this?
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-bad-company-2-pc/933150-updates-servers-now-soon-7.html#post13100931 
 
Also, the Xbox version has supposedly sold over 1.1million copies worldwide and PS3 selling over 700K. With EA saying they've sold over 2.3 million total, that leaves a little over 500K at best for the PC. I guess we'll have to wait for real NPD numbers to come out at the end of the month and try and do some math with what EA is saying about total sales.
 
Ok, I would definitely agree that the marketing of the Genesis was better (Nintendon't, "Blaster" processing). I never did own a Genesis though and not many of the people I grew up with did. Guess it wasn't popular in my area.
#45 Posted by ManlyBeast (1134 posts) -

People don't understand that lots of people pirate games to try them out and then buy the game if they like it.  Games sell well on PC because of steam also.

#46 Posted by Asrahn (552 posts) -
@Jimbo said:
" @Asrahn: Well said, sir. "
Thank you, good sir!
 
One sometimes needs to vent in between C&C sessions!
#47 Edited by Trilogy (2636 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:

" Simply put, the demo for Just Cause 2 made me buy the game on Steam.  Demos work, fucked up DRM and no demo at all doesn't. "

While I can get behind the idea of having a demo for every game released on the pc, that doesn't prevent the people who steal games just to avoid paying for them.
 
Not to mention its almost impossible to find out how many people pirate games to test if their pc can handle the game and how many people don't want to pay for the game. Therefore, how are you going to tell what the real problem is? I'm not saying that demos won't help a bit, but I don't think it's the final solution. Every little step helps I suppose.
#48 Posted by Asrahn (552 posts) -
@Trilogy said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:

" Simply put, the demo for Just Cause 2 made me buy the game on Steam.  Demos work, fucked up DRM and no demo at all doesn't. "

While I can get behind the idea of having a demo for every game released on the pc, that doesn't prevent the people who steal games just to avoid paying for them.  Not to mention its almost impossible to find out how many people pirate games to test if their pc can handle the game and how many people don't want to pay for the game. Therefore, how are you going to tell what the real problem is? I'm not saying that demos won't help a bit, but I don't think it's the final solution. Every little step helps I suppose. "
As for solving the issue completely, the developers is obviously yet to come across a permanent solution. As it looks now they're pulling back their support in the interest of protecting what they have, while completely ignoring what they could get. As it stands right now it won't matter where they go with their products, they will face some manner of piracy anyway.
 
And agreed, demos for their damn games will help this along. Moving their stuff to attractive, easy-to-use platforms such as Steam will make buying their products more accessible, and thus make people less keen on downloading illegaly. I don't know how things are over in the US and whatnot, but over here in Sweden a game with its box costs everything between 10-20 euros more than buying it digitally, not to forget the notion of shipping cost if you order the box from a website. So yes, Steam actually makes it cheaper as well (At least for me). I'm not saying that Steam is the universal answer for everything, cancer included, but rather that it is one of many ways to make piracy seem more of a hassle than actually buying the game. A lot of us gamers are lazy, after all :3
#49 Posted by monkeyroach (175 posts) -

If there was 100% piracy no one would make anything for pc but a pc version always comes out because it still makes money.

#50 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@JokerSmilez said:
"  
 
@SeriouslyNow said:

" @JokerSmilez said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:

I think it's quite telling that DICE, a company who doesn't complain that piracy is ending their support of PC, removed SecureROM from their most recent update to their most recent title Battlefield : Bad Company 2.  A title I might also add which they claim was recently outselling the XBOX 360 version when it launched. "
Where did you read that? I'm just curious, because I haven't seen any sales numbers yet other than EA saying it's sold 2.3 million total so far and "on pace" to be the biggest seller in March. "
Well not sales directly, but they did say that there were more PC players than either console, so I'd say that that relates to sales quite strongly as Battlefield is primarily focussed on MP.
 
@JokerSmilez said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
the Gamecube was an anomaly, just as SNES was because Nintendo sometimes makes mistakes in the West
Wait...are you saying the SNES was a mistake? "
In terms of marketing in the West, yes.  I had both the Megadrive and the SNES but I much prefered my SNES, still SEGA had far better marketing and longevity with the Megadrive/Genesis.  Nintendo suffered a lot for their family friendly image on SNES. "
Have you seen this?
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-bad-company-2-pc/933150-updates-servers-now-soon-7.html#post13100931   Also, the Xbox version has supposedly sold over 1.1million copies worldwide and PS3 selling over 700K. With EA saying they've sold over 2.3 million total, that leaves a little over 500K at best for the PC. I guess we'll have to wait for real NPD numbers to come out at the end of the month and try and do some math with what EA is saying about total sales.  Ok, I would definitely agree that the marketing of the Genesis was better (Nintendon't, "Blaster" processing). I never did own a Genesis though and not many of the people I grew up with did. Guess it wasn't popular in my area. "
Those sales numbers don't account for digital sales at all. Last I checked only 16% of total BC2 sales came from the physical PC copies so that means the majority were digitally purchased. Either way BC2 is either the most played on the PC out of all the platforms or it's very close to it. The point that a well made PC game makes lots of $$$ still stands.

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