I've been playing some ranked online lately and noticed a pattern, whenever I'm up against a Boss characters, Elizabeth, Labrys and Shadow Labrys, I get my ass kicked almost immediately. I know I'm not the best player in the world, but even against Yukiko and Charlie(Which I hate fighting against) I can still put up a fight.

Liz, Labby and Slabby aren't more powerful than the rest of the cast so I don't see the problem.

edit. Oh, and what character do you play?

@Vade: They just seem cheap. I know the game is extremely balanced but something about those character kick my ass fast.

I main Naoto and Akihiko.

Well it's always harder to play against characters that are unknown to you. I'd advise using those characters for a bit in training mode, checking out the moves and figuring out some basic strategies with that character.

After that you can look at some matches on youtube to get tips for the matchup or sub that character yourself.

Liz has the lowest amount of health, S labrys is useless without her Persona and labrys doesn't seem to be unbalanced. I don't see the problem here.

Though the GB tournament final was Labrys against Liz, those characters are not unbeatable. I fought Flux as he was testing out Slabs, and I still managed to take about 30% of the matches.

Funnily enough at high level play all 3 characters you mentioned are in the B tier, along with Naoto and Kanji. The tiers seem relatively close though.
The characters you mentioned aren't cheap, you just don't know how to play against them. Watch some matches and read up on their strategies and you'll get better eventually.

It seems the guys I was playing against were just spam heavy, cause I just got in a few matches with someone playing Shadow Labrys and won, It was close but I did win.

None of those characters have any real advantage over any of the others. From my experimentation, the only characters who seem to have a distinct advanatage over the rest of the cast at the moment are Mitsuru, Aigis and Yu, due to their speed and their ability to do super long combo strings that are safe upon failure. Even then, it takes a lot of skill to use those advantages properly.

You just need to rethink how you attack those characters since they work much differently than the rest of the cast. Labyris is slow but the hitbox on her normals are massive. Learn to identify when Slab is actually using her persona and figure out how to break it early and often. Figure out ways to keep Liz close, as two good combos will kill her.

'Liz is actually considered the hardest character to play right now, both with having the lowest HP, having subpar mixups, not to mention very punishable. She's a fun character but considering how reaction based she is makes her really freaking hard to use, mess up once and you're at half your life bar.

S-Labrys is only considered good right now because people are still learning the matchups.

@Mesoian: Yeah after everyone pointed it out, Liz goes down super fast, you just can't let her keep you in a combo for too long.

I've been jumping around a lot, in terms of characters, I decided to stick with Akihiko and learn him. I've won the most matches with him and like his playstyle a lot, so I am with him and learn how to deal with my weaknesses.

Side note, I still suck against Fan Spamming Yukiko's...

It's a little bit sad. I'm ranked C at the moment(maining Yosuke) and most everyone I run into just spams, usually auto combos. Most of the time it's not a big deal, but against Chie, Yu, and Mitsuru it's really annoying. Though, Mitsuru is annoying anyway.

Also, tiers are irrelevant at this skill level. In fact, from my experience with fighting games, the lower skill level you are the more effective lower tier characters are since most of them tend to rely on gimmicks or spamming.

@YI_Orange: Yeah I think spammers are harder than actually skilled players.

I spam auto combos (with some characters). They're effective, and with Mitsuru you can drop early and be safe, letting you try and find a different opening. Yu's on the other hand, not really. I use his furious and AOA more often than his autocombo.

The best part of fighting games isn't learning difficult-to-execute combo strings, it's reading your opponent's behavior and playing a few moves ahead of him. I don't find challenge mode nearly as fun as guessing that Kanji is going to use a wake up furious so I should block for a second and then go in on him.

Both characters pretty much fall apart when you persona break them. If you air block when Elizabeth sends out Thanatos from full screen, she can't grab you, and it's unsafe on whiff which means you can hit it every single time. Same with her regular 5C. I found a bunch of Elizabeths get really impatient if you just wait and slowly move in instead of thinking "oh god I need to get on top of her right now!"

For Shadow Labrys, she can't do anything useful without her persona at all, and it's a huge target and always out. Rush her down and you'll probably break it without even thinking about it. And if they're spamming auto combo, you can DP after the second hit of the autocombo every single time. A lot of Labrys and S.Lab players still haven't caught on to this from what I've seen.

@Brodehouse: I mean they literally just spam it, there's no thinking involved. They run at you, hit the square button. If you're out of range, they keep hitting it. if you block, they keep hitting it. If they hit you, well, they keep hitting it. Then they run at you and do again while you get up. They're terrible at blocking any sort of mix-up and I'm pretty sure there's been a couple people I could have beaten using literally JUST mirage slash.

Also, one of the worst parts of Mitsuru, other than her FA, is her insane reach. It even ranges burst.

Even good Elizabeth characters haven't given me too much trouble and I play Akihiko. You just gotta be patience, find an opening then strike. Elizabeth's health is so low that as Akihiko you can easily take a good chunk of her health if you keep up the pressure. Now, for Labrys and Shadow Labrys, I've also had trouble with those characters. She does a ton of damage and has a fair bit of reach. And I don't care what anyone says, Kanji is an extremely effective character at this stage in the game. Sure most of his moves has exploitable flaws and if you don't screw up, you can definitely beat him. However IF you do screw up then you can say goodbye to half your health. That doesn't allow a lot of room for error. But I think the most annoying thing online is people are too damn impatient to let the intro play out and sort out the lag. I figured the more I ranked up, the more people who would know about his but it actually seems like less people know about it.

@Brodehouse: It's not a problem most of the time, just annoying. Even if I almost perfect them it makes the match really uninteresting because all they're doing is spamming. It's also really not fun getting caught in auto-combos. At least if people are doing it themselves there's the feeling they could drop it, makes it more interesting for me.

Also, I love playing as Yosuke, never gonna stop.

@YI_Orange: I have to agree with you on the auto combo thing, once you get caught in one it sucks knowing that you have to endure it because there is really no way the other player can fail at it. Luckily it does little to no damage and also takes a little bit of the enemies health away.

The only character I have problem fighting is Labrys.

I think the real issue is playing online. Those people are no joke.

@JeanLuc: The game's doing a decent job matching me with people about my skill level.

@SmasheControllers said:

@JeanLuc: The game's doing a decent job matching me with people about my skill level.

Then I guess I just really suck hahahaha.

@SmasheControllers: I actually find the opposite, my matches tend to be either my opponent dominating me or me dominating the opponent.

@Liquidus: I've had plenty of matches like that but for the most part I'm getting into pretty even matches. Compared to my other online fighting game experiences(SF4 and UMvC3), Persona 4's matchmaking is amazing.

I found a 1v1 room called 'casuals' where I was hoping to practice Yu (who I've had 5 matches with). Inside is a guy with 580 matches and 507 wins.

You're complaining about Shadow Labrys. Are you kidding me.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Does Labrys count as a boss character?

@FluxWaveZ said:

You're complaining about Shadow Labrys. Are you kidding me.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Yeah, but to be fair, this game is EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMELY spam friendly. Even good players are gonna succumb to people mashing once in a while. I still have trouble against mashing Naoto's considering the outcomb of her autocombo results in silence.

@Mesoian said:

@FluxWaveZ said:

You're complaining about Shadow Labrys. Are you kidding me.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Yeah, but to be fair, this game is EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMELY spam friendly. Even good players are gonna succumb to people mashing once in a while. I still have trouble against mashing Naoto's considering the outcomb of her autocombo results in silence.

Agreed, Spammers ain't hard to deal with they're just super annoying.

Luckily it does little to no damage and also takes a little bit of the enemies health away.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Does Labrys count as a boss character?

@SuperWristBands said:

@FluxWaveZ said:

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Uhh... I guess? Spamming auto combo is not the same as spamming a fireball. It removes a skill necessary in a fighting game (that of maintaining a combo) and if a player refuses to utilize a literal easy button then they are at an unfair advantage to someone of equal or lower actual skill. I don't see the point in defending an auto combo spammer or putting down people trying to learn the game without cheeseing it.

There's a reason that there are advanced BnBs for characters other than auto-combos: auto-combos are often inefficient and, as said before, deal poor damage relative to other combos that could be performed instead. Auto-combos are highly predictable and can be easily DP'ed out of or evaded in some other way. And even if auto-combos were as efficient as the other combos people have made for characters (they're not), the fact of the matter is that you were hitconfirmed into it in the first place. There's no difference between another game where a player would just memorize a simple BnB or P4A where players just do 5AAAA. It's the same damn thing and a slight difference in execution doesn't matter in the least.

Someone who constantly spams the auto-combo and wins against you is of a better skill level than you are. You can use all kinds of fancy tricks, but in the end if you can't win, you're worse than the other player, regardless of the method they used to achieve victory. Auto-combos aren't cheese. There's more to skill than combos. There are set-ups, mixups, match-up knowledge and other information that players need to have to be skillful. Auto-combos are there just to make the game accessible to newcomers and people unfamiliar with the workings of a specific character, but those who actually know what they're doing won't rely on them or call them an "easy button", because they're not.

Someone who put it in another way on Mayonaka Midnight:

Combos
This would be something like confirming 5B into the same combo, or auto comboing.
I do not understand people complaining about this at all. Some guy on player matches was raging so hard because i kept confirming Yu's 5B into 5C 214D. Okay seriously? If I have an optimized or preferred combo, Im going to use the same combo every time i get the specific confirm. Its the same way in every fighting game. If my preferred combo off a 5A is 5AAAA, thats okay, its the same thing as me doing a low damage combo off a 5A. A "scrub" autocomboer shouldn't beat you unless you are losing at neutral, which means you have been bested fair and square.

I main S. Labrys. I'm not amazing, but I am still learning her. From playing her I can tell you that she's pretty easy to counter. You can't hurt her Shadow/Persona while it's ideal with light attacks, but heavy attack do. If it's attacking, same rules apply as if you were fighting anyone else. It can block, but you can move past it to attack S. Labrys directly, but that can put you into a situation where you get attacked from both sides.

I've run into so many auto-combo spammers it's not even funny. Most of them tend to play Chie, Yu, and Akihiko. If anything, it's annoying.

There's a reason that there are advanced BnBs for characters other than auto-combos: auto-combos are often inefficient and, as said before, deal poor damage relative to other combos that could be performed instead.

can be easily DP'ed out of or evaded in some other way.

It's the same damn thing and a slight difference in execution doesn't matter in the least.

Someone who constantly spams the auto-combo and wins against you is of a better skill level than you are. You can use all kinds of fancy tricks, but in the end if you can't win, you're worse than the other player, regardless of the method they used to achieve victory. Auto-combos aren't cheese.

There's more to skill than combos. There are set-ups, mixups, match-up knowledge and other information that players need to have to be skillful.

@SuperWristBands said:

@FluxWaveZ: They cheapen the low level skill pool making it harder and more frustrating for people to learn to play the game normally amongst all the people using far less skill but still managing to win.

Wow, I completely disagree with this sentiment. There is nothing beneficial for new players by having them fight other players who can't even do a decent combo. I don't know what in the world makes you think auto-combos makes things more difficult for new players to learn the game. It evens the playing field more at low levels, giving everyone basic options that they have no matter their skill level. If everyone has a basic combo it puts much more focus on learning the other aspects of fighters, the stuff that is honestly far more important to being good at fighting games than whether you can do fancy combos.

Anyone who is losing to auto-combos is clearly lacking in those other areas. They don't need to be learning combos, they need to be learning how to block and hit confirm and read their opponent. Honestly that's probably the biggest issue with fighters these days. They put way too much emphasis on the fancy combos (granted this is also due to the advent of the combo video), to the point where far too many new players just assume that all you need to know to be good at fighting games is learn combos. Oh, and BB's stylish mode was a million times worse than auto-combos. It was more a detriment to learning the game than a help, and in some cases it actually gave the player an unfair advantage, auto-selecting attacks with the best priority based on the opponents current state without the player actually having to change their input.

I don't know what in the world makes you think auto-combos makes things more difficult for new players to learn the game.

It evens the playing field more at low levels, giving everyone basic options that they have no matter their skill level. If everyone has a basic combo it puts much more focus on learning the other aspects of fighters, the stuff that is honestly far more important to being good at fighting games than whether you can do fancy combos.

Anyone who is losing to auto-combos is clearly lacking in those other areas. They don't need to be learning combos, they need to be learning how to block and hit confirm and read their opponent.

Oh, and BB's stylish mode was a million times worse than auto-combos. It was more a detriment to learning the game than a help, and in some cases it actually gave the player an unfair advantage, auto-selecting attacks with the best priority based on the opponents current state without the player actually having to change their input.

@SuperWristBands said:

Also, it makes no sense to be playing a fighting game so deep that you know set-ups, match-ups and mix-ups but can't combo. All in all I feel you missed my problem with auto combos.

You obviously don't know what's more important in fighters if you think combos take priority over what people do in the neutral game, and this pretty much explains your problem with auto-combos. Combos should be one of the last things you focus on developing in a fighter. If you can't even survive blockstrings or understand an opponent's mixups or do some of your own, you're not in a proper place to be doing fancy combos. If you're destroyed by someone only performing auto-combos, than they understand the neutral game better than you do and are a better player than you for it. You didn't even know that Furious Actions could get a player easily out of an auto-combo since the opponent wouldn't be baiting it out and there are probably other methods of avoiding them that you are ignoring as well.

Instead of complaining about them, learn to block/avoid them. It's an easy thing to do because auto-combos are simple. If you still think auto-combos are an easy button because people should be learning "real" combos, then you'll continue to be beat by auto-combo spammers who understand the neutral game better than you do. The fundamentals are understanding what to do and when as well as reading your opponent. Once you comprehend that, then you can layer in situational combos.

Combos aren't interesting, learning defense and how to get a confirm, out-thinking my opponent is interesting. Reading their tendencies and being ready with my anti-air before I even see them jump is the meat of fighting games for me. Getting knocked down and guessing that he's going to use his furious so I block and then punish (with an autocombo) is the fun part, not performing Challenge 27.

If the only way I could compete is to learn dial-a-combos then I'm just not going to play. I already realize that for me to win without obsessing over combo execution I need to get about twice as many confirms as the next guy. Making it five times as much is just going to make me quit.

@SuperWristBands said:

If players are actually doing that, then sure. But if they are so into the game that they are learning what a hit confirm is and to actually read (I still find this very difficult to do) their opponent then they should have learned a few combos already.

I appear to be the exception to your rule. Along with Jeff and myriad other Bombers I played with over the last week.

@SuperWristBands: @FluxWaveZ: @Brodehouse: I think you guys are missing what I'm saying. I'm talking about literal SPAMMERS. People who would play exactly the same if they had their eyes closed and someone telling them what side of the screen their opponent is on. And again, I don't usually lose to these people, it's just not fun. It removes the mind games, it removes the pokes, it removes the set-ups and clever play, it removes everything fun about the game. It even removes all the offensive mind games because they almost never block anything. I don't have a problem with someone who USES auto combos, I have a problem with people who SPAM them.

@YI_Orange: It's fine if it's not fun, but there's a problem if you're succumbing to the auto-combo spammers, like SuperWristBands seems to be complaining about. It's not fun with dealing with Naoto players who just stay on the opposite end of the screen and shoot, but it's pretty easy to deal with them.

It's also annoying because then you don't really get practice against people who play more intelligently.

@YI_Orange: That happens in every game though. I could be playing SSFIV AE against a really good (relative to me) Bison or something, and then get matched up vs a Ryu who does nothing but Shoryuken and grab the whole game. It sucks but they're not going to turn into good players if you take away their autocombo.

@FluxWaveZ said:

@SuperWristBands said:

Also, it makes no sense to be playing a fighting game so deep that you know set-ups, match-ups and mix-ups but can't combo. All in all I feel you missed my problem with auto combos.

You obviously don't know what's more important in fighters if you think combos take priority over what people do in the neutral game

I didn't say that. Combos are important though. Why not learn a few easier ones? Cause the auto combo is easier and people don't try.

You didn't even know that Furious Actions could get a player easily out of an auto-combo since the opponent wouldn't be baiting it out and there are probably other methods of avoiding them that you are ignoring as well.

How is one supposed to learn that in the middle of a block string they can use an attack to get out of it? A few of the characters don't even look like it can be punished. It's not like a whiffed shouryuken. Can it be done to non-auto-combo block strings?

If you can't even survive blockstrings or understand an opponent's mixups or do some of your own, you're not in a proper place to be doing fancy combos. If you're destroyed by someone only performing auto-combos, than they understand the neutral game better than you do and are a better player than you for it.

How is someone only spamming auto combos going to learn much about mixups? Maybe they will learn when to pop out a throw but they aren't gonna learn to swap between high and low because they don't do anything except press A. Also, there is a middle ground with combos. They don't all have to be fancy. There are easier to preform combos.

Instead of complaining about them, learn to block/avoid them. It's an easy thing to do because auto-combos are simple. If you still think auto-combos are an easy button because people should be learning "real" combos, then you'll continue to be beat by auto-combo spammers who understand the neutral game better than you do. The fundamentals are understanding what to do and when as well as reading your opponent. Once you comprehend that, then you can layer in situational combos.

I still think you devalue combos far too much. Also, I don't have too much trouble with auto combos, but if I lose to one or get hit into one it feels like my opponent has unearned damage.

@YI_Orange: That is also what I am talking about. FluxWaveZ is just getting all kray kray on me. I probably didn't help my self by not straight up stating what you did a second time about spammers but whatever, I'm no good at the internets! I mean he used the word spammer in the post I originally replied to, then goes on to argue about the nobility of auto combos when I was talkin' spammers.

@SuperWristBands said:

I didn't say that. Combos are important though. Why not learn a few easier ones? Cause the auto combo is easier and people don't try.

Precisely, but there's also a reason you don't see them very often in high level play.

How is one supposed to learn that in the middle of a block string they can use an attack to get out of it? A few of the characters don't even look like it can be punished. It's not like a whiffed shouryuken. Can it be done to non-auto-combo block strings?

Experimentation? Spending time in Training Mode to learn how to cope with auto-combos? I thought that's what fighting games were all about: adaptation. It can also be done to non auto-combo block strings. That's why they refer to it as a "DP".

How is someone only spamming auto combos going to learn much about mixups? Maybe they will learn when to pop out a throw but they aren't gonna learn to swap between high and low because they don't do anything except press A. Also, there is a middle ground with combos. They don't all have to be fancy. There are easier to preform combos.

What I'm saying is that if you get hit by the same combo over and over again, they're better at the neutral game than you are because they hit you more than you hit them. It's as simple as that. Advanced mixups are obviously unnecessary for the opponent to perform if you can't deal with the constant auto-combo in the first place and they beat you by spamming it anyways.

I still think you devalue combos far too much. Also, I don't have too much trouble with auto combos, but if I lose to one or get hit into one it feels like my opponent has unearned damage.

How far has placing such an importance on combos gotten you in terms of P4A skill? I barely know any advanced Shadow Labrys combos and I have about 630 PSR with her. I also know how to avoid auto-combos because they're predictable.

And I'm "defending" spammers because, again, if you can't defend against them, it's your own fault. I think it's incredibly dumb when people complain about fighting game tactics just because they don't want to learn how to defend against them (projectile spamming, constant throwing, turtling, Morrigan Astral Vision, Dark Phoenix...). You should use any tool you have at your disposal to win and if that's auto-combo spamming, then so be it. What's the use of prioritizing fancy and higher damaging combos if simple, low damaging auto-combos work just as well? Complaining about those tactics because they're annoying is fine, but it isn't when you consider it "cheap".

Complaining about auto-combo spam is on the same category for me as complaining about a Yukiko playing keep away.

How is someone only spamming auto combos going to learn much about mixups? Maybe they will learn when to pop out a throw but they aren't gonna learn to swap between high and low because they don't do anything except press A. Also, there is a middle ground with combos. They don't all have to be fancy. There are easier to preform combos.

What I'm saying is that if you get hit by the same combo over and over again, they're better at the neutral game than you are because they hit you more than you hit them. It's as simple as that. Advanced mixups are obviously unnecessary for the opponent to perform if you can't deal with the constant auto-combo in the first place and they beat you by spamming it anyways.

That's why they refer to it as a "DP".

I still think you devalue combos far too much. Also, I don't have too much trouble with auto combos, but if I lose to one or get hit into one it feels like my opponent has unearned damage.

How far has placing such an importance on combos gotten you in terms of P4A skill? I barely know any advanced Shadow Labrys combos and I have about 630 PSR with her. I also know how to avoid auto-combos because they're predictable.

What's the use of prioritizing fancy and higher damaging combos if simple, low damaging auto-combos work just as well?

Complaining about auto-combo spam is on the same category for me as complaining about a Yukiko playing keep away.

@YI_Orange said:

@SuperWristBands: @FluxWaveZ: @Brodehouse: I think you guys are missing what I'm saying. I'm talking about literal SPAMMERS. People who would play exactly the same if they had their eyes closed and someone telling them what side of the screen their opponent is on. And again, I don't usually lose to these people, it's just not fun. It removes the mind games, it removes the pokes, it removes the set-ups and clever play, it removes everything fun about the game. It even removes all the offensive mind games because they almost never block anything. I don't have a problem with someone who USES auto combos, I have a problem with people who SPAM them.

Well spammers happens in ALL fighting games .... just play a little bit of MvsC3 and you will see that ad infinitum

Also every one of us has a hard time dealing with a certain character ... for me is Yukiko .... damn her and her stupid throwing fans /(-_-)/ \_____\

But once you hit C-/C/C+ you will see less autocombo spammers and get into very intense matches of reading your opponent and reacting .... it get really awesome ^____^

Also I dont believe in that tier bullcrap ... its always in the players were the skill is at , not the characters.

I decided I had practiced my Mitsuru enough to do ranked, and what I found weren't people who spammed A, it was guys who knew extremely technical and damaging combo strings, but had no idea how to play defense. One was a Labrys who could do this big combo that starts with a furious, but it's all she knew to do. So I'd stand half screen away, she'd telegraph her furious and I'd droit her after she whiffs. Again and again. Another Yosuke who could do that moonsault combo cancel into Garudyne; could not block high. It was amazing to see how practiced their combos are and how bad their main stuff is.

And more than A spammers, I found basic special move or furious spammers. One Yu who just did blade rush move again and again, even after I figured to block high. There's bad players in every game, and combo execution is nowhere as important to a 'skilled' player as defense or good decision making.

I decided I had practiced my Mitsuru enough to do ranked, and what I found weren't people who spammed A, it was guys who knew extremely technical and damaging combo strings, but had no idea how to play defense. One was a Labrys who could do this big combo that starts with a furious, but it's all she knew to do. So I'd stand half screen away, she'd telegraph her furious and I'd droit her after she whiffs. Again and again. Another Yosuke who could do that moonsault combo cancel into Garudyne; could not block high. It was amazing to see how practiced their combos are and how bad their main stuff is.

I dont have much to say, but if you get clipped and I'm pressing A... I'm mashing. Sorry if you hate it, but if I catch you slipping, I'm mashing.

That is how I feel when playing randoms, when playing with friends or against my roommate, I take it easy and try out stuff online, but against random, I'm all cheese.