Anyone Else Hate Boss Characters in Ranked Matches?

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#1 Edited by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

I've been playing some ranked online lately and noticed a pattern, whenever I'm up against a Boss characters, Elizabeth, Labrys and Shadow Labrys, I get my ass kicked almost immediately. I know I'm not the best player in the world, but even against Yukiko and Charlie(Which I hate fighting against) I can still put up a fight.

#2 Edited by Vade (393 posts) -

Liz, Labby and Slabby aren't more powerful than the rest of the cast so I don't see the problem.

edit. Oh, and what character do you play?

#3 Edited by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

@Vade: They just seem cheap. I know the game is extremely balanced but something about those character kick my ass fast.

I main Naoto and Akihiko.

#4 Posted by Vade (393 posts) -

Well it's always harder to play against characters that are unknown to you. I'd advise using those characters for a bit in training mode, checking out the moves and figuring out some basic strategies with that character.

After that you can look at some matches on youtube to get tips for the matchup or sub that character yourself.

#5 Posted by Phatmac (5723 posts) -

Liz has the lowest amount of health, S labrys is useless without her Persona and labrys doesn't seem to be unbalanced. I don't see the problem here.

#6 Posted by Brodehouse (9760 posts) -

Though the GB tournament final was Labrys against Liz, those characters are not unbeatable. I fought Flux as he was testing out Slabs, and I still managed to take about 30% of the matches.

#7 Posted by Petiew (1341 posts) -

Funnily enough at high level play all 3 characters you mentioned are in the B tier, along with Naoto and Kanji. The tiers seem relatively close though.
The characters you mentioned aren't cheap, you just don't know how to play against them. Watch some matches and read up on their strategies and you'll get better eventually.

#8 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

It seems the guys I was playing against were just spam heavy, cause I just got in a few matches with someone playing Shadow Labrys and won, It was close but I did win.

#9 Posted by Mesoian (1574 posts) -

None of those characters have any real advantage over any of the others. From my experimentation, the only characters who seem to have a distinct advanatage over the rest of the cast at the moment are Mitsuru, Aigis and Yu, due to their speed and their ability to do super long combo strings that are safe upon failure. Even then, it takes a lot of skill to use those advantages properly.

You just need to rethink how you attack those characters since they work much differently than the rest of the cast. Labyris is slow but the hitbox on her normals are massive. Learn to identify when Slab is actually using her persona and figure out how to break it early and often. Figure out ways to keep Liz close, as two good combos will kill her.

#10 Posted by llamaegg (225 posts) -

'Liz is actually considered the hardest character to play right now, both with having the lowest HP, having subpar mixups, not to mention very punishable. She's a fun character but considering how reaction based she is makes her really freaking hard to use, mess up once and you're at half your life bar.

S-Labrys is only considered good right now because people are still learning the matchups.

#11 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

@Mesoian: Yeah after everyone pointed it out, Liz goes down super fast, you just can't let her keep you in a combo for too long.

#12 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

I've been jumping around a lot, in terms of characters, I decided to stick with Akihiko and learn him. I've won the most matches with him and like his playstyle a lot, so I am with him and learn how to deal with my weaknesses.

Side note, I still suck against Fan Spamming Yukiko's...

#13 Edited by YI_Orange (1140 posts) -

It's a little bit sad. I'm ranked C at the moment(maining Yosuke) and most everyone I run into just spams, usually auto combos. Most of the time it's not a big deal, but against Chie, Yu, and Mitsuru it's really annoying. Though, Mitsuru is annoying anyway.

Also, tiers are irrelevant at this skill level. In fact, from my experience with fighting games, the lower skill level you are the more effective lower tier characters are since most of them tend to rely on gimmicks or spamming.

#14 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

@YI_Orange: Yeah I think spammers are harder than actually skilled players.

#15 Posted by Brodehouse (9760 posts) -

I spam auto combos (with some characters). They're effective, and with Mitsuru you can drop early and be safe, letting you try and find a different opening. Yu's on the other hand, not really. I use his furious and AOA more often than his autocombo.

The best part of fighting games isn't learning difficult-to-execute combo strings, it's reading your opponent's behavior and playing a few moves ahead of him. I don't find challenge mode nearly as fun as guessing that Kanji is going to use a wake up furious so I should block for a second and then go in on him.

#16 Posted by Morbid_Coffee (954 posts) -

Both characters pretty much fall apart when you persona break them. If you air block when Elizabeth sends out Thanatos from full screen, she can't grab you, and it's unsafe on whiff which means you can hit it every single time. Same with her regular 5C. I found a bunch of Elizabeths get really impatient if you just wait and slowly move in instead of thinking "oh god I need to get on top of her right now!"

For Shadow Labrys, she can't do anything useful without her persona at all, and it's a huge target and always out. Rush her down and you'll probably break it without even thinking about it. And if they're spamming auto combo, you can DP after the second hit of the autocombo every single time. A lot of Labrys and S.Lab players still haven't caught on to this from what I've seen.

#17 Posted by YI_Orange (1140 posts) -

@Brodehouse: I mean they literally just spam it, there's no thinking involved. They run at you, hit the square button. If you're out of range, they keep hitting it. if you block, they keep hitting it. If they hit you, well, they keep hitting it. Then they run at you and do again while you get up. They're terrible at blocking any sort of mix-up and I'm pretty sure there's been a couple people I could have beaten using literally JUST mirage slash.

Also, one of the worst parts of Mitsuru, other than her FA, is her insane reach. It even ranges burst.

#18 Posted by Liquidus (946 posts) -

Even good Elizabeth characters haven't given me too much trouble and I play Akihiko. You just gotta be patience, find an opening then strike. Elizabeth's health is so low that as Akihiko you can easily take a good chunk of her health if you keep up the pressure. Now, for Labrys and Shadow Labrys, I've also had trouble with those characters. She does a ton of damage and has a fair bit of reach. And I don't care what anyone says, Kanji is an extremely effective character at this stage in the game. Sure most of his moves has exploitable flaws and if you don't screw up, you can definitely beat him. However IF you do screw up then you can say goodbye to half your health. That doesn't allow a lot of room for error. But I think the most annoying thing online is people are too damn impatient to let the intro play out and sort out the lag. I figured the more I ranked up, the more people who would know about his but it actually seems like less people know about it.

#19 Posted by Brodehouse (9760 posts) -
@YI_Orange Yosuke's reversal wouldn't work on them? Seems pretty simple to deal with overall if they're really that predictable. Just patience and punishment. If you really expect them to do a wake up A, do a jumping B into a ground combo (or that moonsault string Yosuke can do). I expect a reversal most of the time though, so that's block and then autocombo for me.

Yosuke is probably making it harder on yourself, because his main assets is maneuverability, he's got health worse than Chie without the same damage potential. Footspeed doesn't help much against good melee range.

And melee range is why I gravitated to Mitsuru. I liked Litchi in BlazBlue for the same reason; I didn't have to rely on high damage combo strings, I could just focus on defense and spacing and whittling them down with pokes and counterattacks. I didn't have to do anything fancy, just use BnB and good decision making.
#20 Posted by YI_Orange (1140 posts) -

@Brodehouse: It's not a problem most of the time, just annoying. Even if I almost perfect them it makes the match really uninteresting because all they're doing is spamming. It's also really not fun getting caught in auto-combos. At least if people are doing it themselves there's the feeling they could drop it, makes it more interesting for me.

Also, I love playing as Yosuke, never gonna stop.

#21 Edited by _Soki_ (101 posts) -

@YI_Orange: I have to agree with you on the auto combo thing, once you get caught in one it sucks knowing that you have to endure it because there is really no way the other player can fail at it. Luckily it does little to no damage and also takes a little bit of the enemies health away.

The only character I have problem fighting is Labrys.

#22 Posted by JeanLuc (3577 posts) -

I think the real issue is playing online. Those people are no joke.

#23 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

@JeanLuc: The game's doing a decent job matching me with people about my skill level.

#24 Posted by JeanLuc (3577 posts) -

@SmasheControllers said:

@JeanLuc: The game's doing a decent job matching me with people about my skill level.

Then I guess I just really suck hahahaha.

#25 Posted by Liquidus (946 posts) -

@SmasheControllers: I actually find the opposite, my matches tend to be either my opponent dominating me or me dominating the opponent.

#26 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

@Liquidus: I've had plenty of matches like that but for the most part I'm getting into pretty even matches. Compared to my other online fighting game experiences(SF4 and UMvC3), Persona 4's matchmaking is amazing.

#27 Posted by Brodehouse (9760 posts) -

I found a 1v1 room called 'casuals' where I was hoping to practice Yu (who I've had 5 matches with). Inside is a guy with 580 matches and 507 wins.

#28 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19321 posts) -

You're complaining about Shadow Labrys. Are you kidding me.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

#29 Posted by DonChipotle (2713 posts) -

Does Labrys count as a boss character?

#30 Posted by Mesoian (1574 posts) -

@FluxWaveZ said:

You're complaining about Shadow Labrys. Are you kidding me.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Yeah, but to be fair, this game is EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMELY spam friendly. Even good players are gonna succumb to people mashing once in a while. I still have trouble against mashing Naoto's considering the outcomb of her autocombo results in silence.

#31 Posted by SmasheControllers (2547 posts) -

@Mesoian said:

@FluxWaveZ said:

You're complaining about Shadow Labrys. Are you kidding me.

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Yeah, but to be fair, this game is EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMELY spam friendly. Even good players are gonna succumb to people mashing once in a while. I still have trouble against mashing Naoto's considering the outcomb of her autocombo results in silence.

Agreed, Spammers ain't hard to deal with they're just super annoying.

#32 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -
@_Soki_ said:

Luckily it does little to no damage and also takes a little bit of the enemies health away.

It's actually the super cancel that deals recoverable health damage and super cancels aren't unique to auto combos. There aren't really any downsides to landing an auto combo other than (I believe but haven't tested) lower damage. (Also Labrys can do her AAAA --> super cancel QCF, QCF D for 4300 damage with red axe. That is nearly 50% of many characters who are not awakened. It's a little more situational but still kinda sick)
 
@FluxWaveZ said:

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Uhh... I guess? Spamming auto combo is not the same as spamming a fireball. It removes a skill necessary in a fighting game (that of maintaining a combo) and if a player refuses to utilize a literal easy button then they are at an unfair advantage to someone of equal or lower actual skill. I don't see the point in defending an auto combo spammer or putting down people trying to learn the game without cheeseing it.
 
@DonChipotle said:

Does Labrys count as a boss character?

I would say that none of the cast count as a boss character but Labrys most certainly does not.
#33 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19321 posts) -

@SuperWristBands said:

@FluxWaveZ said:

And, sorry, but if people can't deal with spammers they suck more than the spammers themselves.

Uhh... I guess? Spamming auto combo is not the same as spamming a fireball. It removes a skill necessary in a fighting game (that of maintaining a combo) and if a player refuses to utilize a literal easy button then they are at an unfair advantage to someone of equal or lower actual skill. I don't see the point in defending an auto combo spammer or putting down people trying to learn the game without cheeseing it.

There's a reason that there are advanced BnBs for characters other than auto-combos: auto-combos are often inefficient and, as said before, deal poor damage relative to other combos that could be performed instead. Auto-combos are highly predictable and can be easily DP'ed out of or evaded in some other way. And even if auto-combos were as efficient as the other combos people have made for characters (they're not), the fact of the matter is that you were hitconfirmed into it in the first place. There's no difference between another game where a player would just memorize a simple BnB or P4A where players just do 5AAAA. It's the same damn thing and a slight difference in execution doesn't matter in the least.

Someone who constantly spams the auto-combo and wins against you is of a better skill level than you are. You can use all kinds of fancy tricks, but in the end if you can't win, you're worse than the other player, regardless of the method they used to achieve victory. Auto-combos aren't cheese. There's more to skill than combos. There are set-ups, mixups, match-up knowledge and other information that players need to have to be skillful. Auto-combos are there just to make the game accessible to newcomers and people unfamiliar with the workings of a specific character, but those who actually know what they're doing won't rely on them or call them an "easy button", because they're not.

Someone who put it in another way on Mayonaka Midnight:

Combos
This would be something like confirming 5B into the same combo, or auto comboing.
I do not understand people complaining about this at all. Some guy on player matches was raging so hard because i kept confirming Yu's 5B into 5C 214D. Okay seriously? If I have an optimized or preferred combo, Im going to use the same combo every time i get the specific confirm. Its the same way in every fighting game. If my preferred combo off a 5A is 5AAAA, thats okay, its the same thing as me doing a low damage combo off a 5A. A "scrub" autocomboer shouldn't beat you unless you are losing at neutral, which means you have been bested fair and square.
#34 Edited by SilvarusLupus (310 posts) -

I main S. Labrys. I'm not amazing, but I am still learning her. From playing her I can tell you that she's pretty easy to counter. You can't hurt her Shadow/Persona while it's ideal with light attacks, but heavy attack do. If it's attacking, same rules apply as if you were fighting anyone else. It can block, but you can move past it to attack S. Labrys directly, but that can put you into a situation where you get attacked from both sides.

I've run into so many auto-combo spammers it's not even funny. Most of them tend to play Chie, Yu, and Akihiko. If anything, it's annoying.

#35 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -
@FluxWaveZ: Confirming Yu's 5B into 5C 214D may be the same as someone going 5AAAA with Yu but there is a difference in skill required for execution (these two combos seem to do the same amount of damage as well). I know you know that. If you sit down two people who are completely new to the game with each other and one uses auto combos while the other doesn't the one using auto combos is gonna win every time. That is my problem. Not a high level player beating an auto combo spammer. I'm talking two unskilled (or low skilled) players, one using yes, an easy button and another not, and yes, at early level play, it is in fact cheesing it.
 

There's a reason that there are advanced BnBs for characters other than auto-combos: auto-combos are often inefficient and, as said before, deal poor damage relative to other combos that could be performed instead.

 Labrys' auto combo of 5AAAA deals 3100 with a super cancel, a similar combo of A,B, Sweep, QCB + A, super cancel QCF, QCF, C does 3449. Huge difference in execution, small difference in damage. Having something like this lowers the incentive to play the game the right way.

can be easily DP'ed out of or evaded in some other way.

I actually didn't know this and I feel it is pretty important (straight up, thanks for this) but I don't know how someone was going to figure that out without the internet (or being super into the game, at which point it is moot for my problem with the auto combos). I tried it and it seems that some characters are not too hard to DP out of (Yu) others are more difficult (Yosuke). I would also say that is is not "easy". It's not super hard but would take some time to know which hit it is safe to do it on and if you fail then you got yourself some more damage then you would have just blocking. It's risk reward and doesn't seem fair to a low level player to have to learn just to keep their head above spammers.
 

It's the same damn thing and a slight difference in execution doesn't matter in the least.

I disagree that it is only a slight difference in execution and it does matter. One requires timing and different button presses, the other does not. 
 

Someone who constantly spams the auto-combo and wins against you is of a better skill level than you are. You can use all kinds of fancy tricks, but in the end if you can't win, you're worse than the other player, regardless of the method they used to achieve victory. Auto-combos aren't cheese.

I disagree entirely. Auto combo requires no skill. Again, if both players play the same and they both hit confirm but the non-auto combo user can't complete their combo 100% of the time doesn't mean they have less skill.

There's more to skill than combos. There are set-ups, mixups, match-up knowledge and other information that players need to have to be skillful.
Agreed but being able to do a combo has been an important skill of every Ark Sys fighting game I've played. Also, it makes no sense to be playing a fighting game so deep that you know set-ups, match-ups and mix-ups but can't combo.
 
All in all I feel you missed my problem with auto combos. They cheapen the low level skill pool making it harder and more frustrating for people to learn to play the game normally amongst all the people using far less skill but still managing to win. Also, I don't think that auto combos shouldn't be in the game. I think that they are great for story mode but they should not be allowed online (or toggled on like beginner mode in BB).
#36 Edited by Zeik (2334 posts) -

@SuperWristBands said:

@FluxWaveZ: They cheapen the low level skill pool making it harder and more frustrating for people to learn to play the game normally amongst all the people using far less skill but still managing to win.

Wow, I completely disagree with this sentiment. There is nothing beneficial for new players by having them fight other players who can't even do a decent combo. I don't know what in the world makes you think auto-combos makes things more difficult for new players to learn the game. It evens the playing field more at low levels, giving everyone basic options that they have no matter their skill level. If everyone has a basic combo it puts much more focus on learning the other aspects of fighters, the stuff that is honestly far more important to being good at fighting games than whether you can do fancy combos.

Anyone who is losing to auto-combos is clearly lacking in those other areas. They don't need to be learning combos, they need to be learning how to block and hit confirm and read their opponent. Honestly that's probably the biggest issue with fighters these days. They put way too much emphasis on the fancy combos (granted this is also due to the advent of the combo video), to the point where far too many new players just assume that all you need to know to be good at fighting games is learn combos. Oh, and BB's stylish mode was a million times worse than auto-combos. It was more a detriment to learning the game than a help, and in some cases it actually gave the player an unfair advantage, auto-selecting attacks with the best priority based on the opponents current state without the player actually having to change their input.

#37 Edited by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -
@Zeik: Hmm... Okay. I agree. I still think it'd be far better for everyone playing the game if people learned more than the auto combo. After all mixups are combos and that won't be learned if a player just mashes A. If people stick to only auto combo they won't learn much.   

I don't know what in the world makes you think auto-combos makes things more difficult for new players to learn the game.

Because when I first started I didn't use auto-combos, assumed other people weren't (a few factors led to this, but I suppose it's nothing other than my own fault), couldn't tell at that point that they were and I got destroyed by what felt like constant pressure. It was very off putting and finding out the other players I was playing against were using them was the only thing that stopped me from getting discouraged completely. While this may be entirely anecdotal I still feel that if I have done it, then others have too.

It evens the playing field more at low levels, giving everyone basic options that they have no matter their skill level. If everyone has a basic combo it puts much more focus on learning the other aspects of fighters, the stuff that is honestly far more important to being good at fighting games than whether you can do fancy combos.

I don't completely agree with this. Everyone has a basic combo, sure, but complete reliance on it as your only combo (which was happening) feels like, hmm... it feels wrong. It's not that hard to go into challenge mode and learn a few combos before doing anything else. 
 
@Zeik said:

Anyone who is losing to auto-combos is clearly lacking in those other areas. They don't need to be learning combos, they need to be learning how to block and hit confirm and read their opponent.

If players are actually doing that, then sure. But if they are so into the game that they are learning what a hit confirm is and to actually read (I still find this very difficult to do) their opponent then they should have learned a few combos already.

Oh, and BB's stylish mode was a million times worse than auto-combos. It was more a detriment to learning the game than a help, and in some cases it actually gave the player an unfair advantage, auto-selecting attacks with the best priority based on the opponents current state without the player actually having to change their input.

Also, I never said BlazBlue's beginner mode was good. I simply said auto combos could be a toggle like it was. Beginner mode was shit.
#38 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19321 posts) -

@SuperWristBands said:

Also, it makes no sense to be playing a fighting game so deep that you know set-ups, match-ups and mix-ups but can't combo. All in all I feel you missed my problem with auto combos.

You obviously don't know what's more important in fighters if you think combos take priority over what people do in the neutral game, and this pretty much explains your problem with auto-combos. Combos should be one of the last things you focus on developing in a fighter. If you can't even survive blockstrings or understand an opponent's mixups or do some of your own, you're not in a proper place to be doing fancy combos. If you're destroyed by someone only performing auto-combos, than they understand the neutral game better than you do and are a better player than you for it. You didn't even know that Furious Actions could get a player easily out of an auto-combo since the opponent wouldn't be baiting it out and there are probably other methods of avoiding them that you are ignoring as well.

Instead of complaining about them, learn to block/avoid them. It's an easy thing to do because auto-combos are simple. If you still think auto-combos are an easy button because people should be learning "real" combos, then you'll continue to be beat by auto-combo spammers who understand the neutral game better than you do. The fundamentals are understanding what to do and when as well as reading your opponent. Once you comprehend that, then you can layer in situational combos.

#39 Edited by Brodehouse (9760 posts) -

Combos aren't interesting, learning defense and how to get a confirm, out-thinking my opponent is interesting. Reading their tendencies and being ready with my anti-air before I even see them jump is the meat of fighting games for me. Getting knocked down and guessing that he's going to use his furious so I block and then punish (with an autocombo) is the fun part, not performing Challenge 27.

If the only way I could compete is to learn dial-a-combos then I'm just not going to play. I already realize that for me to win without obsessing over combo execution I need to get about twice as many confirms as the next guy. Making it five times as much is just going to make me quit.

@SuperWristBands said:

If players are actually doing that, then sure. But if they are so into the game that they are learning what a hit confirm is and to actually read (I still find this very difficult to do) their opponent then they should have learned a few combos already.

I appear to be the exception to your rule. Along with Jeff and myriad other Bombers I played with over the last week.

#40 Posted by YI_Orange (1140 posts) -

@SuperWristBands: @FluxWaveZ: @Brodehouse: I think you guys are missing what I'm saying. I'm talking about literal SPAMMERS. People who would play exactly the same if they had their eyes closed and someone telling them what side of the screen their opponent is on. And again, I don't usually lose to these people, it's just not fun. It removes the mind games, it removes the pokes, it removes the set-ups and clever play, it removes everything fun about the game. It even removes all the offensive mind games because they almost never block anything. I don't have a problem with someone who USES auto combos, I have a problem with people who SPAM them.

#41 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19321 posts) -

@YI_Orange: It's fine if it's not fun, but there's a problem if you're succumbing to the auto-combo spammers, like SuperWristBands seems to be complaining about. It's not fun with dealing with Naoto players who just stay on the opposite end of the screen and shoot, but it's pretty easy to deal with them.

#42 Posted by YI_Orange (1140 posts) -

It's also annoying because then you don't really get practice against people who play more intelligently.

#43 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@YI_Orange: That happens in every game though. I could be playing SSFIV AE against a really good (relative to me) Bison or something, and then get matched up vs a Ryu who does nothing but Shoryuken and grab the whole game. It sucks but they're not going to turn into good players if you take away their autocombo.

#44 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -

@FluxWaveZ said:

@SuperWristBands said:

Also, it makes no sense to be playing a fighting game so deep that you know set-ups, match-ups and mix-ups but can't combo. All in all I feel you missed my problem with auto combos.

You obviously don't know what's more important in fighters if you think combos take priority over what people do in the neutral game

I didn't say that. Combos are important though. Why not learn a few easier ones? Cause the auto combo is easier and people don't try.

You didn't even know that Furious Actions could get a player easily out of an auto-combo since the opponent wouldn't be baiting it out and there are probably other methods of avoiding them that you are ignoring as well.

How is one supposed to learn that in the middle of a block string they can use an attack to get out of it? A few of the characters don't even look like it can be punished. It's not like a whiffed shouryuken. Can it be done to non-auto-combo block strings?

If you can't even survive blockstrings or understand an opponent's mixups or do some of your own, you're not in a proper place to be doing fancy combos. If you're destroyed by someone only performing auto-combos, than they understand the neutral game better than you do and are a better player than you for it.

How is someone only spamming auto combos going to learn much about mixups? Maybe they will learn when to pop out a throw but they aren't gonna learn to swap between high and low because they don't do anything except press A. Also, there is a middle ground with combos. They don't all have to be fancy. There are easier to preform combos.

Instead of complaining about them, learn to block/avoid them. It's an easy thing to do because auto-combos are simple. If you still think auto-combos are an easy button because people should be learning "real" combos, then you'll continue to be beat by auto-combo spammers who understand the neutral game better than you do. The fundamentals are understanding what to do and when as well as reading your opponent. Once you comprehend that, then you can layer in situational combos.

I still think you devalue combos far too much. Also, I don't have too much trouble with auto combos, but if I lose to one or get hit into one it feels like my opponent has unearned damage.

@YI_Orange: That is also what I am talking about. FluxWaveZ is just getting all kray kray on me. I probably didn't help my self by not straight up stating what you did a second time about spammers but whatever, I'm no good at the internets! I mean he used the word spammer in the post I originally replied to, then goes on to argue about the nobility of auto combos when I was talkin' spammers.

#45 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19321 posts) -

@SuperWristBands said:

I didn't say that. Combos are important though. Why not learn a few easier ones? Cause the auto combo is easier and people don't try.

Precisely, but there's also a reason you don't see them very often in high level play.

How is one supposed to learn that in the middle of a block string they can use an attack to get out of it? A few of the characters don't even look like it can be punished. It's not like a whiffed shouryuken. Can it be done to non-auto-combo block strings?

Experimentation? Spending time in Training Mode to learn how to cope with auto-combos? I thought that's what fighting games were all about: adaptation. It can also be done to non auto-combo block strings. That's why they refer to it as a "DP".

How is someone only spamming auto combos going to learn much about mixups? Maybe they will learn when to pop out a throw but they aren't gonna learn to swap between high and low because they don't do anything except press A. Also, there is a middle ground with combos. They don't all have to be fancy. There are easier to preform combos.

What I'm saying is that if you get hit by the same combo over and over again, they're better at the neutral game than you are because they hit you more than you hit them. It's as simple as that. Advanced mixups are obviously unnecessary for the opponent to perform if you can't deal with the constant auto-combo in the first place and they beat you by spamming it anyways.

I still think you devalue combos far too much. Also, I don't have too much trouble with auto combos, but if I lose to one or get hit into one it feels like my opponent has unearned damage.

How far has placing such an importance on combos gotten you in terms of P4A skill? I barely know any advanced Shadow Labrys combos and I have about 630 PSR with her. I also know how to avoid auto-combos because they're predictable.

And I'm "defending" spammers because, again, if you can't defend against them, it's your own fault. I think it's incredibly dumb when people complain about fighting game tactics just because they don't want to learn how to defend against them (projectile spamming, constant throwing, turtling, Morrigan Astral Vision, Dark Phoenix...). You should use any tool you have at your disposal to win and if that's auto-combo spamming, then so be it. What's the use of prioritizing fancy and higher damaging combos if simple, low damaging auto-combos work just as well? Complaining about those tactics because they're annoying is fine, but it isn't when you consider it "cheap".

Complaining about auto-combo spam is on the same category for me as complaining about a Yukiko playing keep away.

#46 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -
@FluxWaveZ said:

How is someone only spamming auto combos going to learn much about mixups? Maybe they will learn when to pop out a throw but they aren't gonna learn to swap between high and low because they don't do anything except press A. Also, there is a middle ground with combos. They don't all have to be fancy. There are easier to preform combos.

What I'm saying is that if you get hit by the same combo over and over again, they're better at the neutral game than you are because they hit you more than you hit them. It's as simple as that. Advanced mixups are obviously unnecessary for the opponent to perform if you can't deal with the constant auto-combo in the first place and they beat you by spamming it anyways.

I can understand this but at the same time I can't. If you assume both players are of nearly the same skill. Neutral game is exactly the same between the two but combo skill is different. One player can't combo and utilizes auto-combos, while the other is trying to learn combos but fails more often than not. The player who is theoretically less skilled will win using auto-combos because they have guanrenteed damage off a hit where the other player sometimes doesn't manage to make a full combo.
 
I now fully understand that auto-combos can be used to learn the game thanks to Zeik but they can just as easily be abused and making a competitive game less fun (at low levels). I guess I can understand the argument for a trial by fire but that isn't as fun as two people honestly playing the game with each other. 

That's why they refer to it as a "DP".

I was under the impression that DP is short for "Dragon Punch" and is used to refer to moves that have a 623 movement. What does it mean? A little bit of research on a Dragon Punch tells me that I don't think you can DP out of a true block string. I guess now I have to learn what is a true block string and what isn't. That is gonna be way more difficult to learn than a combo.


I still think you devalue combos far too much. Also, I don't have too much trouble with auto combos, but if I lose to one or get hit into one it feels like my opponent has unearned damage.

How far has placing such an importance on combos gotten you in terms of P4A skill? I barely know any advanced Shadow Labrys combos and I have about 630 PSR with her. I also know how to avoid auto-combos because they're predictable.

I haven't played the game enough to truly say. My win/lose is not high but that isn't because I think combos are all important. Again, I'll make sure this is clear. Combos are important, but of course they won't win a fight, but they are still a skill that should be required in order to better your opponent in an Ark Sys game. I'm not even complaining about auto-combos because of whether I lose to them or not. I've barely played the game competitively since the tournament. I have a problem with being able to replace an important skill with no effort.
 

What's the use of prioritizing fancy and higher damaging combos if simple, low damaging auto-combos work just as well?

Agreed, but auto-combo spammers don't learn simple low damaging combos.
 

Complaining about auto-combo spam is on the same category for me as complaining about a Yukiko playing keep away.

This is not right. Yukiko playing keep away is part of her character just like it is for Lambda or Nu in BlazBlue. It's a skill they are proficient with and is integral to their play style and requires skill to pull off effectively.
#47 Edited by Aetheldod (3541 posts) -

@YI_Orange said:

@SuperWristBands: @FluxWaveZ: @Brodehouse: I think you guys are missing what I'm saying. I'm talking about literal SPAMMERS. People who would play exactly the same if they had their eyes closed and someone telling them what side of the screen their opponent is on. And again, I don't usually lose to these people, it's just not fun. It removes the mind games, it removes the pokes, it removes the set-ups and clever play, it removes everything fun about the game. It even removes all the offensive mind games because they almost never block anything. I don't have a problem with someone who USES auto combos, I have a problem with people who SPAM them.

Well spammers happens in ALL fighting games .... just play a little bit of MvsC3 and you will see that ad infinitum

Also every one of us has a hard time dealing with a certain character ... for me is Yukiko .... damn her and her stupid throwing fans /(-_-)/ \_____\

But once you hit C-/C/C+ you will see less autocombo spammers and get into very intense matches of reading your opponent and reacting .... it get really awesome ^____^

Also I dont believe in that tier bullcrap ... its always in the players were the skill is at , not the characters.

#48 Posted by Brodehouse (9760 posts) -

I decided I had practiced my Mitsuru enough to do ranked, and what I found weren't people who spammed A, it was guys who knew extremely technical and damaging combo strings, but had no idea how to play defense. One was a Labrys who could do this big combo that starts with a furious, but it's all she knew to do. So I'd stand half screen away, she'd telegraph her furious and I'd droit her after she whiffs. Again and again. Another Yosuke who could do that moonsault combo cancel into Garudyne; could not block high. It was amazing to see how practiced their combos are and how bad their main stuff is.

And more than A spammers, I found basic special move or furious spammers. One Yu who just did blade rush move again and again, even after I figured to block high. There's bad players in every game, and combo execution is nowhere as important to a 'skilled' player as defense or good decision making.

#49 Edited by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -
@Brodehouse said:

I decided I had practiced my Mitsuru enough to do ranked, and what I found weren't people who spammed A, it was guys who knew extremely technical and damaging combo strings, but had no idea how to play defense. One was a Labrys who could do this big combo that starts with a furious, but it's all she knew to do. So I'd stand half screen away, she'd telegraph her furious and I'd droit her after she whiffs. Again and again. Another Yosuke who could do that moonsault combo cancel into Garudyne; could not block high. It was amazing to see how practiced their combos are and how bad their main stuff is.

A player doesn't lose anything by learning combos. It sounds like this Labrys player put a combo into memory and tried to find places to use it, but clearly using it in the same way over and over after it continues to fail is a mark of a beginner. Not someone worthy of scrutiny and some sort of example that combos rot skill in a fighting game. It's also totally possible to practice a combo without any combat experience and where to use it becomes part of something one must learn in actual combat experience, and not an unworthy lesson either, it's part of the game just as much as blocking high/low and anything else. It's the same as an auto combo player (if a player jumps into challenge mode and learns a few combos and then fights against a person just jumping in with no experience relying on auto-combos to make up for a skill they decided not to practice), they just decided to take more time to learn an important part of the game that they would need to if they had played any other fighting game that is combo-centric (like ArkSys games).
 
If auto-combos helped you learn certain game mechanics, that is great. It's not the way I would have done it and it's a way that isn't really necessary.
 
I mean really, the mentality behind a fight in which a person decides to do an auto combo or a normal combo begins and ends at when the first A lands. It doesn't stop you from learning that you need to block or that you need to throw it just requires more execution in that moment to not use an auto combo. The basics will be learned through fight experience over time, those people you talked about are going to learn the things they lack and will be on a better footing when they do than a person who still needs to learn how to combo. Hopefully that Labrys will see that her Furious Action can be easily punished by a character with range and this person will use it more appropriately. Or that Yosuke will be able to see when a character has a high attack, which really, could take a beginner a while to learn if the move isn't super obvious.
 
This has turned far from my original point rather painfully of I don't think spammers have more skill than the opponents they defeated. To the defense of auto combos by saying that combos make people bad at the game because they become unable to learn other parts of it. I think I may have dug myself into a hole of being a staunch hater of auto combos and perhaps those that use them. This was never my intention and I will attribute it to my inability to convey my points. Though I still dislike auto combos and that won't change, but I do not begrudge those who use them to better themselves so long as they continue to better themselves and learn some combos and so long as I am not losing to them when the only difference is that they have unearned unskilled damage (assuming the fight is of a serious nature). Also, yes, the first hit is earned but nothing after that is.
 
*grabs shovel* *starts digging*
If a person has learned their 'neutral game' (and I don't mean high level shit, I mean blocking high/low, throwing, and when to punish obvious moves) they should not be using auto-combos. When they start getting into high level techniques like false block strings, the idea that a move has a higher frame recovery on block and can be punished then they have far exceeded the excuse of using auto-combos.
#50 Posted by OneManX (1685 posts) -

I dont have much to say, but if you get clipped and I'm pressing A... I'm mashing. Sorry if you hate it, but if I catch you slipping, I'm mashing.

That is how I feel when playing randoms, when playing with friends or against my roommate, I take it easy and try out stuff online, but against random, I'm all cheese.

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