How much Persona is in Persona Arena?

#1 Edited by Veektarius (4833 posts) -

Like many of you here, I watched the Persona 4 ER and loved it. I liked the social aspects of the game and I *think* I liked the story, though that may be conflated somewhat with Jeff & Vinny's commentary. I never played it, however, because the dungeon sections looked awful to me. Naturally, this fighting game is going to have better combat, and I can already tell it has basically as much story as a regular Persona game. But they didn't show on the QL whether any of the social gameplay stuff was there - it looked like it was just straight reading all the way through.

First question: Am I right? Is all the story all reading with no or few choices to be made?

Second question: Does anyone share my feelings toward Persona 4 who has bought/played this game? How did you like it?

#3 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

Straight reading.

It's not like there was any branching whatsoever in P4. You mostly just chose whether you wanted 3 notes or 1 to shoot out of their heads. It makes Mass Effect2 look like Planescape Torment.

#4 Posted by Veektarius (4833 posts) -

@Brodehouse: The illusion of choice is worth a lot, but there's also the fact you can go around and level up your social skills by eating meat bowls and stuff. That's fun. Still, sounds like I got my answer, thanks.

#5 Posted by Mcfart (1624 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

Straight reading. It's not like there was any branching whatsoever in P4. You mostly just chose whether you wanted 3 notes or 1 to shoot out of their heads. It makes Mass Effect2 look like Planescape Torment.

Pretty much, but since you can't really expect to get all the S.links in 1 playthrough (though it's possible), then your choices do revolve around who to link with. Still it's nice having multiple choice questions to break up the montomy of the cinimatics, wheras P4A dosen't seem to have them. Also P4A has more unvoiced text since it has a first person FOV, and they don't voice their own thoughts :(

#6 Posted by metalsnakezero (2295 posts) -

It is mainly story with no real choice but it is a good story that fits in with the series and it is interesting to see characters from P3 meeting with the cast of P4.

One of the most unique scenes is when Aigis and Yu (Charlie) meet for the first time she says "You remind me of someone who is dear to me" referring to MC from P3 who dead to save the world from the Fall. Mitsuru also had the same reaction of "You remind me of him."
#7 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -
@Veektarius

@Brodehouse: The illusion of choice is worth a lot, but there's also the fact you can go around and level up your social skills by eating meat bowls and stuff. That's fun. Still, sounds like I got my answer, thanks.

Oh absolutely. The addition of even extremely limited player agency can deliver hooks. You might not be able to get out of saving the world, but you can choose how polite you'll be doing it.

But yeah, it's going to be long ass cutscenes with little going on. BlazBlue was pretty bad for laborious cutscenes that go on and on. Most Japanese work I think would greatly benefit from an editor. Someone to say "maybe the audience doesn't need to watch them discuss where to meet up for the next cutscene, they'll figure it out on their own".
#8 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

Most Japanese work I think would greatly benefit from an editor. Someone to say "maybe the audience doesn't need to watch them discuss where to meet up for the next cutscene, they'll figure it out on their own".

Yes, because when you can't think of a proper argument, cite the entire culture as the problem.

Surely you can do better than that.

#9 Posted by Veektarius (4833 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse said:

Most Japanese work I think would greatly benefit from an editor. Someone to say "maybe the audience doesn't need to watch them discuss where to meet up for the next cutscene, they'll figure it out on their own".

Yes, because when you can't think of a proper argument, cite the entire culture as the problem.

Surely you can do better than that.

Please don't reply to that. I might want to use this thread in the future.

#10 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -
@Hailinel

@Brodehouse said:

Most Japanese work I think would greatly benefit from an editor. Someone to say "maybe the audience doesn't need to watch them discuss where to meet up for the next cutscene, they'll figure it out on their own".

Yes, because when you can't think of a proper argument, cite the entire culture as the problem.

Surely you can do better than that.

What? They're in dire need of an editor. Quit trying to make it about racism. Proper argument? Do you know what editing is? I can think of five Japanese studios who need it right off the top of my head. Arc (and to a lesser extent, Persona Team) is one of them.

You do realize that I like plenty of Japanese games, but I'm capable of evaluating them fairly? If you don't think Kojima, for example, needs an editor to cut the fat, then I don't think you know a lot about dramatic pacing, audience information retention, a lot of things that would be improved. And i like Metal Gear. Stop being such a reactionary troll to anything negative said about anything that comes out of Japan.
#11 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -
@Brodehouse I know what editing is. But I'm also not so hilariously ignorant to think that issues that plague some story writers plague most everyone in the same country. It's fine to say that Kojima needs an editor, but I don't extrapolate that into everyone needing one. That's the problem with your argument. It generalizes too much. It's not about race; it's like saying all Americans need lessons in writing romance because Stephanie Meyer is terrible at it.
#12 Posted by Bocam (3752 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@Veektarius

@Brodehouse: The illusion of choice is worth a lot, but there's also the fact you can go around and level up your social skills by eating meat bowls and stuff. That's fun. Still, sounds like I got my answer, thanks.

Oh absolutely. The addition of even extremely limited player agency can deliver hooks. You might not be able to get out of saving the world, but you can choose how polite you'll be doing it. But yeah, it's going to be long ass cutscenes with little going on. BlazBlue was pretty bad for laborious cutscenes that go on and on. Most Japanese work I think would greatly benefit from an editor. Someone to say "maybe the audience doesn't need to watch them discuss where to meet up for the next cutscene, they'll figure it out on their own".

The localization (translation) for Blazblue isn't that good. They oversimplified things where they shouldn't have and made some things rather long winded. Though Atlus didn't do too well on that ether for P4A. The line "It was a fighting game show where the people were fighting" being an example.

#13 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -
@Brodehouse said:

Straight reading. It's not like there was any branching whatsoever in P4. You mostly just chose whether you wanted 3 notes or 1 to shoot out of their heads. It makes Mass Effect2 look like Planescape Torment.

There is plenty of choice in being able to personally define your own experience. One player can evenly have split his time S-linking, another could have focused on a group of 10 or so characters. Maybe your game didn't have the tutored kid, or the devil nurse while mine did.  Maybe your Charlie cheated on all his girlfriends, while mine was celibate. Maybe I got to beat the rainy day beef-bow challenge, while you didn't. Maybe I spent most of my time studying, while you spent it with part time jobs gaining money.....
 
Player agency doesn't necessarily mean "dialogue option with a good/evil meter."
#14 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -
@Hailinel
@Brodehouse I know what editing is. But I'm also not so hilariously ignorant to think that issues that plague some story writers plague most everyone in the same country. It's fine to say that Kojima needs an editor, but I don't extrapolate that into everyone needing one. That's the problem with your argument. It generalizes too much. It's not about race; it's like saying all Americans need lessons in writing romance because Stephanie Meyer is terrible at it.
It plagues the majority of Japanese games that I've played (and I play a lot of games), and it's generally editing in particular. I thought about it after your reply and the only examples I came up with we're the original Silent Hills from a decade ago (though certainly not the best performed). How about this? Good editing is _extremely underrepresented in Japanese games_. Maybe I'd put Suda in there, but he's guilty of a lot of goofy stuff that wouldn't fly elsewhere. So maybe not.

It generalizes no more than "Eastern European bloc games need better UI designers". You're just hyper-sensitive to any criticism of Japanese anything.
#15 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -
@Brodehouse
@Hailinel
@Brodehouse I know what editing is. But I'm also not so hilariously ignorant to think that issues that plague some story writers plague most everyone in the same country. It's fine to say that Kojima needs an editor, but I don't extrapolate that into everyone needing one. That's the problem with your argument. It generalizes too much. It's not about race; it's like saying all Americans need lessons in writing romance because Stephanie Meyer is terrible at it.
It plagues the majority of Japanese games that I've played (and I play a lot of games), and it's generally editing in particular. I thought about it after your reply and the only examples I came up with we're the original Silent Hills from a decade ago (though certainly not the best performed). How about this? Good editing is _extremely underrepresented in Japanese games_. Maybe I'd put Suda in there, but he's guilty of a lot of goofy stuff that wouldn't fly elsewhere. So maybe not.

It generalizes no more than "Eastern European bloc games need better UI designers". You're just hyper-sensitive to any criticism of Japanese anything.
How much are the issues at fault the original language script versus the English localization. What sounds natural in one language can sound not so great in another due to a variety of factors.
#16 Posted by Superkenon (1434 posts) -

The answer is: a lot of Persona. You'll take it and you'll like it, dammit.

@Hailinel: Translation doesn't tend to result in excess elaboration. Just throwing that out there.

#17 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -
@Hailinel If it was just localization, it would be good here, bad there. It would also mean that the Japanese versions are half as long if the American version takes twice as many words to say the same thing. The localization on recent Atlus games has been pretty stellar, but even then there's times where the script takes weird trips into redundancy and overwrought exposition. That's less of a translation thing and more of a bad dramatic choice. The Investigation Team's obsession with the word 'culprit' is a localization thing, their propensity for circuitous conversations and unnecessary details is a dramatic choice. Very amusing dialogue, but certainly not concise by any stretch of the imagination.

I should add Fatal Frame 2 to decently edited stuff, though that's slowly starting to change; it's begins by telling me absolutely nothing (which is bad), then it gets into a groove of telling me just the right amount to keep me going (which is good), and it's starting to enter telling me way too much all of the time (which is probably worst).
#18 Posted by kerse (2113 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Brodehouse said:

Straight reading. It's not like there was any branching whatsoever in P4. You mostly just chose whether you wanted 3 notes or 1 to shoot out of their heads. It makes Mass Effect2 look like Planescape Torment.

There is plenty of choice in being able to personally define your own experience. One player can evenly have split his time S-linking, another could have focused on a group of 10 or so characters. Maybe your game didn't have the tutored kid, or the devil nurse while mine did. Maybe your Charlie cheated on all his girlfriends, while mine was celibate. Maybe I got to beat the rainy day beef-bow challenge, while you didn't. Maybe I spent most of my time studying, while you spent it with part time jobs gaining money..... Player agency doesn't necessarily mean "dialogue option with a good/evil meter."

Yes, I just wish there was some payoff in the actually story. Like the main thing for me was when Dojima takes you to jail even if your rank 10 and it really doesn't matter if you cheat on all the girlfriends, in fact the S. Link system almost encourages it.

Also your Adachi face kinda freaks me out.

#19 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -
@Brodehouse
@Hailinel If it was just localization, it would be good here, bad there. It would also mean that the Japanese versions are half as long if the American version takes twice as many words to say the same thing. The localization on recent Atlus games has been pretty stellar, but even then there's times where the script takes weird trips into redundancy and overwrought exposition. That's less of a translation thing and more of a bad dramatic choice. The Investigation Team's obsession with the word 'culprit' is a localization thing, their propensity for circuitous conversations and unnecessary details is a dramatic choice. Very amusing dialogue, but certainly not concise by any stretch of the imagination.

I should add Fatal Frame 2 to decently edited stuff, though that's slowly starting to change; it's begins by telling me absolutely nothing (which is bad), then it gets into a groove of telling me just the right amount to keep me going (which is good), and it's starting to enter telling me way too much all of the time (which is probably worst).
Japanese and English feature completely different sentence structures with different grammatical rules. You can't use sentence length alone as a measuring stick in determining a good localization versus shoddy source writing.
#20 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse

@Hailinel If it was just localization, it would be good here, bad there. It would also mean that the Japanese versions are half as long if the American version takes twice as many words to say the same thing. The localization on recent Atlus games has been pretty stellar, but even then there's times where the script takes weird trips into redundancy and overwrought exposition. That's less of a translation thing and more of a bad dramatic choice. The Investigation Team's obsession with the word 'culprit' is a localization thing, their propensity for circuitous conversations and unnecessary details is a dramatic choice. Very amusing dialogue, but certainly not concise by any stretch of the imagination.

I should add Fatal Frame 2 to decently edited stuff, though that's slowly starting to change; it's begins by telling me absolutely nothing (which is bad), then it gets into a groove of telling me just the right amount to keep me going (which is good), and it's starting to enter telling me way too much all of the time (which is probably worst).
Japanese and English feature completely different sentence structures with different grammatical rules. You can't use sentence length alone as a measuring stick in determining a good localization versus shoddy source writing.
He's not using sentence length, he's using dialogue. Which is a perfectly fine measuring stick.
 
The characters in P4, especially in the first couple of hours of the game, have this obsessive-compulsive need to reiterate the same 3-4 plot points a gazillion times. Its pretty clear that the localization has nothing to do with that.  And its pretty clear that the Persona team needed to have more faith in their fans and a more demanding editor.
 
Though, I have to say, the localization in P4A does leave something to be desired. Look forward to great, totally, not-awkward at all phrases like "the power of not being alone."
#21 Posted by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -
@Hailinel What? Sentence length? If the Japanese version is concise and the American version is bloated from bad localization, it means the Japanese game itself would be half as long by pure lack of repetitious dialogue. Has nothing to do with sentence construction or the subject verb agreement.

It's not always just repetitive dialogue, it's what they choose to spend time on as well. As I referred to earlier, the scene where Chie and Yosuke discuss that they should meet later, okay yeah we'll meet later, and I'll see you later, followed by a reiteration of what just happened should have red ink all over it. That's taking 15 seconds of information and characterization and stretching it to a 3 minute scene. Sometimes less is more.
#22 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -
@mutha3
@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse

@Hailinel If it was just localization, it would be good here, bad there. It would also mean that the Japanese versions are half as long if the American version takes twice as many words to say the same thing. The localization on recent Atlus games has been pretty stellar, but even then there's times where the script takes weird trips into redundancy and overwrought exposition. That's less of a translation thing and more of a bad dramatic choice. The Investigation Team's obsession with the word 'culprit' is a localization thing, their propensity for circuitous conversations and unnecessary details is a dramatic choice. Very amusing dialogue, but certainly not concise by any stretch of the imagination.

I should add Fatal Frame 2 to decently edited stuff, though that's slowly starting to change; it's begins by telling me absolutely nothing (which is bad), then it gets into a groove of telling me just the right amount to keep me going (which is good), and it's starting to enter telling me way too much all of the time (which is probably worst).
Japanese and English feature completely different sentence structures with different grammatical rules. You can't use sentence length alone as a measuring stick in determining a good localization versus shoddy source writing.
He's not using sentence length, he's using dialogue. Which is a perfectly fine measuring stick.
 
The characters in P4, especially in the first couple of hours of the game, have this obsessive-compulsive need to reiterate the same 3-4 plot points a gazillion times. Its pretty clear that the localization has nothing to do with that.  And its pretty clear that the Persona team needed to have more faith in their fans and a more demanding editor.
 
Though, I have to say, the localization in P4A does leave something to be desired. Look forward to great, totally, not-awkward at all phrases like "the power of not being alone."
That's the thing, though. What sounds natural in one language sounds clunky in another. Capturing the proper tone of the dialogue while maintaining accuracy in the translation and fitting said dialogue to fit the scene (in the case of vocals) isn't as easy as just producing grammatically correct English, or French, or whatever you're localizing into.
#23 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@mutha3

@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse

@Hailinel If it was just localization, it would be good here, bad there. It would also mean that the Japanese versions are half as long if the American version takes twice as many words to say the same thing. The localization on recent Atlus games has been pretty stellar, but even then there's times where the script takes weird trips into redundancy and overwrought exposition. That's less of a translation thing and more of a bad dramatic choice. The Investigation Team's obsession with the word 'culprit' is a localization thing, their propensity for circuitous conversations and unnecessary details is a dramatic choice. Very amusing dialogue, but certainly not concise by any stretch of the imagination.

I should add Fatal Frame 2 to decently edited stuff, though that's slowly starting to change; it's begins by telling me absolutely nothing (which is bad), then it gets into a groove of telling me just the right amount to keep me going (which is good), and it's starting to enter telling me way too much all of the time (which is probably worst).
Japanese and English feature completely different sentence structures with different grammatical rules. You can't use sentence length alone as a measuring stick in determining a good localization versus shoddy source writing.
He's not using sentence length, he's using dialogue. Which is a perfectly fine measuring stick.
 
The characters in P4, especially in the first couple of hours of the game, have this obsessive-compulsive need to reiterate the same 3-4 plot points a gazillion times. Its pretty clear that the localization has nothing to do with that.  And its pretty clear that the Persona team needed to have more faith in their fans and a more demanding editor.
 
Though, I have to say, the localization in P4A does leave something to be desired. Look forward to great, totally, not-awkward at all phrases like "the power of not being alone."
That's the thing, though. What sounds natural in one language sounds clunky in another. Capturing the proper tone of the dialogue while maintaining accuracy in the translation and fitting said dialogue to fit the scene (in the case of vocals) isn't as easy as just producing grammatically correct English, or French, or whatever you're localizing into.
Right, "the power of not being alone" is a good example of that. 

...But Brodehouse didn't point towards the sentence structure or the tone or whatever of the localization. I'm pretty sure he was referring to the things they were saying. Which was awfully redundant, a lot of the time. How often is it reiterated that Mayumi Yamano was in an affair with Taro Namatame in the opening of Persona 4?Like, around 10 times? Literally, even? How many pointless scenes where there in Persona 4 that could have been cut down severely and improved the pacing?
 
 I don't believe for a second that the localization team was responsible for Persona 4's meandering pace.
#24 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -
@Brodehouse
@Hailinel What? Sentence length? If the Japanese version is concise and the American version is bloated from bad localization, it means the Japanese game itself would be half as long by pure lack of repetitious dialogue. Has nothing to do with sentence construction or the subject verb agreement.

It's not always just repetitive dialogue, it's what they choose to spend time on as well. As I referred to earlier, the scene where Chie and Yosuke discuss that they should meet later, okay yeah we'll meet later, and I'll see you later, followed by a reiteration of what just happened should have red ink all over it. That's taking 15 seconds of information and characterization and stretching it to a 3 minute scene. Sometimes less is more.
Amount of dialogue does not equate to game length. If the Japanese version is concise and has half as much dialogue, it just has half as much dialogue. And hey, I'm not defending P4A. I've barely seen any of the story in either language. That being said, less being more isn't necessarily a universal concept. I'm not an expert in conversational Japanese or their written language, but if their common method of story writing normally includes that sort of extraneous information, then I can't call them out on it. Just like I can't judge the writing of an Arabic novel or Russian movie based on the English translation alone.
#25 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse

@Hailinel What? Sentence length? If the Japanese version is concise and the American version is bloated from bad localization, it means the Japanese game itself would be half as long by pure lack of repetitious dialogue. Has nothing to do with sentence construction or the subject verb agreement.

It's not always just repetitive dialogue, it's what they choose to spend time on as well. As I referred to earlier, the scene where Chie and Yosuke discuss that they should meet later, okay yeah we'll meet later, and I'll see you later, followed by a reiteration of what just happened should have red ink all over it. That's taking 15 seconds of information and characterization and stretching it to a 3 minute scene. Sometimes less is more.

Amount of dialogue does not equate to game length. If the Japanese version is concise and has half as much dialogue, it just has half as much dialogue.
This is demonstrably untrue, though. 
 
Though I think there is merit to what you said in the second part of your post. I'm not familiar enough with Japanese literature to say, either way.
#26 Edited by Bocam (3752 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Hailinel said:

@mutha3

@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse

@Hailinel If it was just localization, it would be good here, bad there. It would also mean that the Japanese versions are half as long if the American version takes twice as many words to say the same thing. The localization on recent Atlus games has been pretty stellar, but even then there's times where the script takes weird trips into redundancy and overwrought exposition. That's less of a translation thing and more of a bad dramatic choice. The Investigation Team's obsession with the word 'culprit' is a localization thing, their propensity for circuitous conversations and unnecessary details is a dramatic choice. Very amusing dialogue, but certainly not concise by any stretch of the imagination.

I should add Fatal Frame 2 to decently edited stuff, though that's slowly starting to change; it's begins by telling me absolutely nothing (which is bad), then it gets into a groove of telling me just the right amount to keep me going (which is good), and it's starting to enter telling me way too much all of the time (which is probably worst).
Japanese and English feature completely different sentence structures with different grammatical rules. You can't use sentence length alone as a measuring stick in determining a good localization versus shoddy source writing.
He's not using sentence length, he's using dialogue. Which is a perfectly fine measuring stick.

The characters in P4, especially in the first couple of hours of the game, have this obsessive-compulsive need to reiterate the same 3-4 plot points a gazillion times. Its pretty clear that the localization has nothing to do with that. And its pretty clear that the Persona team needed to have more faith in their fans and a more demanding editor.

Though, I have to say, the localization in P4A does leave something to be desired. Look forward to great, totally, not-awkward at all phrases like "the power of not being alone."
That's the thing, though. What sounds natural in one language sounds clunky in another. Capturing the proper tone of the dialogue while maintaining accuracy in the translation and fitting said dialogue to fit the scene (in the case of vocals) isn't as easy as just producing grammatically correct English, or French, or whatever you're localizing into.
I don't believe for a second that the localization team was responsible for Persona 4's meandering pace.

Persona 4 had the same pace in the Japanese version. It was even slower in a sense. That being said P4A's localization is pretty awkward. Also repeating things is fairly common in Japanese writing

#27 Edited by Superkenon (1434 posts) -

@Hailinel: Not to dogpile on you, but reiterating over and over that 'languages are different, you guys!' isn't helping you drive home any kind of point here, 'cause that's not really what the argument is about. You should trust that these guys know what a translation is, and look a little closer at what they're talking about rather than assuming you're automatically trumping them with your hot exclusive knowledge about grammar variance.

But again... okay, this dumbs down his point unfairly, but for the sake of simplifying this argument: he's saying there's a lot of unnecessary text boxes. Hardly any localization exists where additional text boxes are added, and typically the content therein is translated as it stands. If the same point keeps being brought up across numerous text boxes, that's because it was that way in the original.

Now, you can argue that this isn't necessarily a bad thing, or perhaps even important for viewer clarification, but don't sit there and act like the localization team is actively producing this redundancy. This may not be what you're trying to say, but that's certainly what it's coming off as -- and it kinda undermines any clout you might have in this conversation. But I realize this is more likely a case of his statement just not connecting with you. It happens.

#28 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -
@Bocam said:

@mutha3 said:

 That being said P4A's localization is pretty awkward. 
Its a little spotty, yeah.
 
But they really knocked it out of the park with the voice acting this time around. I suspect many people will be distracted by it, and overlook some of the awkwardness in the script because its so damn well-done.
 
 Like, there are a ton of scenes that work solely based on the strength of the English VA. This scene is a(fairly) minor-spoiler example of it:
    
  
 09:25 'til the end.
 
 
Without the voice acting, this scene wouldn't be funny at all.
#29 Edited by Bocam (3752 posts) -

@mutha3: Wow... that would be pretty bad. Well I'm reading it Japanese so I guess it doesn't affect me.

#30 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -
@Bocam said:

@mutha3: Wow... that would be pretty bad.

Hm? You mean the VO I just posted? 
 
You're crazy, man! I love it. I can understand it if you suffer from the Bosch fatigue, though.
#31 Posted by Superkenon (1434 posts) -

Talking Charlie is definitely going to take some getting used to. I'm all for zany antics, though.

From that video, I feel like an option for instant text would benefit the story mode greatly if it exists. With how quickly those thoughts have to be flying through his head, it'd be better for the flow if it just popped up all at once instead of scrolling in. Not that it's that big of a deal, but TELL ME IF THAT OPTION IS THERE!!!!

#32 Posted by Hailinel (24794 posts) -
@Superkenon You are dogpiling and aren't saying anything new. And I'm not trying to trump anyone. I'm making an argument, and I never claimed to have superior foreign language skills.
#33 Posted by Superkenon (1434 posts) -

All the power to you, then. Huzzah!

#34 Posted by Bocam (3752 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Bocam said:

@mutha3: Wow... that would be pretty bad.

Hm? You mean the VO I just posted? You're crazy, man! I love it. I can understand it if you suffer from the Bosch fatigue, though.

I'm saying it would be pretty bad without any VO

#35 Posted by l4wd0g (1952 posts) -

My inane coment: All the persona!

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