The new fanservice is gross.

#351 Posted by mutha3 (4980 posts) -
@Little_Socrates said:

Between this and the fanservice-y Adachi social link, getting harder and harder for me to recommend Golden over the original.

W-wait, what's wrong with that S-link? Did you even look it up?  I thought they did a fine job handling that and avoiding woobyfying him..
 
Marie, though...now there's a dumb character!
#352 Posted by Mamba219 (152 posts) -

Optional things are optional. You don't like it just don't use it. I definitely won't be, and agree with your points, but, again - optional.

#353 Posted by Little_Socrates (5651 posts) -

@mutha3: I just mean the fact that it exists and obviously stands counter to the game's original purpose. The "choice" you get to make towards the end of the game in regards to evidence might confuse a whole lot of people into thinking there's "good" and "evil" endings in this post Mass Effect world, even more so than the first endings. It's there for people who played the first game, and that's awesome, but I presume it's completely baffling to newbies.

#354 Posted by endaround (2129 posts) -
#355 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19179 posts) -
#356 Edited by mutha3 (4980 posts) -
@Little_Socrates said:

@mutha3: I just mean the fact that it exists and obviously stands counter to the game's original purpose.

And you know this...how? You are making an awful lot of assumptions in that post. 
 
The Adachi S-link does not stand counter to any of his characterization in the main game, it just adds some backstory for the guy and shows how he acts when he's neither in creepy-raper-guy mode or silly-comedic-relief mode. It unlocks an additional ending(if you make a certain choice), which is actually pretty cool, and again, totally fits his character. It gives "the choice" more emotional impact since you're not JUST pointing out a 3rd-rate side character who has no purpose in the story up to that point.
#357 Posted by Little_Socrates (5651 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Little_Socrates said:

@mutha3: I just mean the fact that it exists and obviously stands counter to the game's original purpose.

And you know this...how? You are making an awful lot of assumptions in that post. The Adachi S-link does not stand counter to any of his characterization in the main game, it just adds some backstory for the guy and shows how he acts when he's neither in creepy-raper-guy mode or silly-comedic-relief mode. It unlocks an additional ending(if you make a certain choice), which is actually pretty cool, and again, totally fits his character. It gives "the choice" more emotional impact since you're not JUST pointing out a 3rd-rate side character who has no purpose in the story up to that point.

But I don't think Persona 4 was ever about a "choice." It's about the actual hard truth, and when you give up on pursuing the truth, you lose the game. If it was a "choice" and you could finger someone else and see something else play out, I'd maybe agree that giving that "choice" emotional impact mattered. But it's not really a choice. You use the evidence or you lose. That's what's wrong with making it a "choice." This isn't "you're the arbiter; what do you think is right?", it's just "do what is right." That's why the game ends if Namatame goes back in the TV, and that's why the game ends if you don't point out Adachi correctly. The game is about truth, not choice. Making it seem like a choice is just confusing and dilutes the purpose of the game. I know multiple people who thought the Namatame decision was an actual choice, and they felt pretty burned that they had to watch a half hour or an hour's worth of cutscenes again to "do it correctly." That moment is about teaching you that it's not about a choice, it's about what's right. Adding another layer of "choice" after that point further obfuscates that point.

It can add more emotional weight if the player is perceptive enough to get that Persona 4 is a game with a "bad, good, and true ending" as opposed to a game with a "good/evil" ending where one ending is canon. But setting that bar higher doesn't improve the work, and I'd argue that rather than attempting to increase the emotional impact of the sequence and make it a choice in the original, the original team and purpose of the game was to make it choiceless. The new team, in the service of emotionalism and fanservice, disagreed, and by doing so actively change more than just your relationship to Adachi in the process.

#358 Edited by mutha3 (4980 posts) -
@Little_Socrates:  Man, I'm sorry, but you are making way too many unfounded assumptions for this to be a conversation worth having.


I'd argue that rather than attempting to increase the emotional impact of the sequence and make it a choice in the original the original team and purpose of the game was to make it choiceless.

Like this. My god. You are utterly misconstruing what I meant with "when you make a certain choice". You haven't the faintest clue here about any of the context of the new stuff.
#359 Posted by Little_Socrates (5651 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Little_Socrates: Man, I'm sorry, but you are making way too many unfounded assumptions for this to be a conversation worth having.


I'd argue that rather than attempting to increase the emotional impact of the sequence and make it a choice in the original the original team and purpose of the game was to make it choiceless.

Like this. My god. You are utterly misconstruing what I meant with "when you make a certain choice". You haven't the faintest clue here about any of the context of the new stuff.
I've read that you are presented with the opportunity to withhold or tamper with evidence that proves Adachi as the killer, thereby helping him escape guilt and resulting in the player getting a version of the bad ending. Is that unfounded?
#360 Edited by mutha3 (4980 posts) -
@Little_Socrates said:

@mutha3 said:

@Little_Socrates: Man, I'm sorry, but you are making way too many unfounded assumptions for this to be a conversation worth having.


I'd argue that rather than attempting to increase the emotional impact of the sequence and make it a choice in the original the original team and purpose of the game was to make it choiceless.

Like this. My god. You are utterly misconstruing what I meant with "when you make a certain choice". You haven't the faintest clue here about any of the context of the new stuff.

#361 Posted by Little_Socrates (5651 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Little_Socrates said:

@mutha3 said:

@Little_Socrates: Man, I'm sorry, but you are making way too many unfounded assumptions for this to be a conversation worth having.

I'd argue that rather than attempting to increase the emotional impact of the sequence and make it a choice in the original the original team and purpose of the game was to make it choiceless.

Like this. My god. You are utterly misconstruing what I meant with "when you make a certain choice". You haven't the faintest clue here about any of the context of the new stuff.
I've read that you are presented with the opportunity to withhold or tamper with evidence that proves Adachi as the killer, thereby helping him escape guilt and resulting in the player getting a version of the bad ending. Is that unfounded?

When you make "the choice" to incriminate Adachi from the original P4, and you did his S-link up to a certain point, you can choose to confront Adachi personally, before telling your suspicions to the other IT members. To give Adachi a chance to explain himself and confirm those suspicions.

Then you go talk to Adachi, and start cornering him, he suddenly starts begging you to trust him. That this can all be explained in due time. Here, you can choose again. Do you Trust Adachi or not? Will you burn the only evidence that could implicate him, and put your faith in a friend?

...when you do decide to burn the evidence, he laughs in your face, calls you a complete idiot, threatens to take you down with him if you ever get in his way and the game ends with an anime cutscene of Yu seeing Adachi in the fog, smiling, when he leaves Inaba followed by Yu making a pained expression. OOPS.

Now:

The game is about truth, not choice. Making it seem like a choice is just confusing and dilutes the purpose of the game. I know multiple people who thought the Namatame decision was an actual choice, and they felt pretty burned that they had to watch a half hour or an hour's worth of cutscenes again to "do it correctly." That moment is about teaching you that it's not about a choice, it's about what's right. Adding another layer of "choice" after that point further obfuscates that point.


How does this not reinforce the exact same theme here? This isn't "good choice" vs "evil choice". its very clearly "you choose a comfortable lie, over a difficult truth", just like the other bad endings. This one just is a little more personal.

Thank you for the additional information. You're right that it's not "against" the purpose of the game with the follow-up it gives you.

Now I'm asking why burning these people again is at all effective. If anything, I could easily imagine it causing a rejection. Someone who hasn't done a good job saving could just give up the game right then because it's so overly anti-player. Again, the original team decided not to make that a choice because that point had already been made. To do it again seems excessively harsh and redundant.

#362 Posted by Gerhabio (1969 posts) -

I for once, agree. It feels off-character to dress the P4 girls like that (maybe Rise would because she gets paid to do so?).

#363 Posted by Bizzama (48 posts) -

As a huge P4 fan, I figured I'd add a female perspective on the matter- I find it weird, especially with Naoto. I understand that other countries have lower ages of consent and that this is pretty much par for the course with anime, but it feels really out of place in P4. Yeah, there was some fanservice in the original game, but not on this level. Getting shots of Naoto's boobs just really weirds me out, especially because I know that she's 15 and struggling with her sexuality. Plus, in the second screeshot, she's just hanging out, like nothing's wrong, which is completely out of character for her, especially considering how she reacts to the beauty pageant or even that same scene in the original. Really, I'd say the way they're just standing there completely naked is at least somewhat out of character for everyone except Rise, though Naoto is definitely the worst offender- boobs are a pretty personal thing for high school girls. It just comes off as really blatant pandering to people who would be into that sort of thing, and the 15-year-old sideboob grosses me out.

I don't have as much of an issue with the in-battle outifts because it seems like everyone has something like that (hey Kanji) and they're so ugly that I can't take them seriously. (Seriosuly, that asscrack.) Plus, they're entirely optional, so I'll just avoid them. That said, those suits are fucking awesome.

#364 Edited by TowerSixteen (538 posts) -

I realize that there are legitimate gripes to be had here, but Jeez-us Christ. Calling people pedophiles or creeps for not being totally weirded out here is completely uncalled for. Its like calling people fucking murderers for not being creeped out by the glorification of violence and war in a modern shooter. Their culture freaks out less about sexual stuff in media and more about violence. Ours is opposite.

Personally, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them having fanservice outfits. I wish they had done it equally with both the guys and the girls, and they had designed the outfits to match the characters in question- you could potentially have a fanservice-y outfit that matches Chie or Naoto or any of the guys, and that would be fun, even if it was a bit over the top. But they didn't bother to do that, and that sucks.

#365 Posted by Terramagi (1159 posts) -

Pft, you think that's bad? You obviously never played Persona 3.

The best armour basically put half your team in lingerie. So if you didn't use it, you were deliberately gimping your chances of survival.

#366 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19179 posts) -

@Terramagi said:

Pft, you think that's bad? You obviously never played Persona 3.

The best armour basically put half your team in lingerie. So if you didn't use it, you were deliberately gimping your chances of survival.

Mentioned in the OP, though it's a single vague sentence. Yeah, I'm aware of the same kind of indecent armor that was included in FES and P3P, but that doesn't make what's in P4G better. At this point, however, I've taken a a more indifferent stance towards that armor compared to the bathhouse scene.

#367 Posted by VisariLoyalist (2991 posts) -

Chie would never wear that!

She should kick whoever put that in the game in the face!

#368 Posted by Jesna (66 posts) -

@TowerSixteen: You can have the male characters walk around in nothing but towels instead.

#369 Posted by kerse (2043 posts) -

Same thing as Persona 3, kinda gross yeah. But dude having everyone wearing suits and sunglasses is fucking awesome, how do I get those.

#370 Posted by xyzygy (9638 posts) -

Don't really think it's gross, just that that type of fanservice is insanely stupid.

#371 Posted by SpunkyDragonwithDeadlyLegs (13 posts) -

i know this is kinda late but I really don't think there's anything wrong. it is wrong to have fanservice be just about the girl characters. Its wrong when the nudity or the skeevy stuff is just to put the girls on display. when they start throwing in Akihiko and Kanji in really small speedos and they have accessories like the glasses with the fake nose and mustache its meant to be silly. keep in mind the japanese have a different sense of humor than us they don't have an age taboo like we do and these games are about 15-17 year olds and rated to be played by people about that age group in Japan. but to be fair how is this even worse than the types of costumes found in western games?

I think i'll take the "battle panties" and the maid outfits to just flat out porn. if you talk to your party members after making them wear the skeevy stuff they even have different dialogue about how the stuff you're makin ghtem wear is embarassing. Do any of the fully nude chicks in games like God of War and Heavy Rain express embarassment when they are naked like that? not that I've seen.

honestly as far as i've seen nonhentai anime and games go the Japanese have been pretty good about keeping it at the line where we in the west have been playing jumprope with it.

#372 Edited by Veektarius (4164 posts) -

It's kind of gross that they make a bunch of high schoolers look 12 in the game in the first place. Including sexuality in a story that takes place at this age is just realistic - it's the art style that makes it seem so weird.

#373 Posted by Sgtpierceface (589 posts) -

This thread is so old. Please stop this madness!

#374 Edited by bigjeffrey (4176 posts) -

But I Can Dress Up As Dojima!! It's Brilliant

#375 Posted by AlexanderSheen (4682 posts) -

Didn't we settle this like a year ago? Oh yeah, we did.

#376 Edited by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

A whole year after and people are still complaining about their soggy knees. Grow up, guys.

#377 Edited by believer258 (11063 posts) -

@spunkydragonwithdeadlylegs: It's worse because the girls that are meant for fanservice for Kratos aren't fifteen. Just because your game is aimed at fifteen year olds doesn't mean it's OK to have creepy fanservice of fifteen year olds in your game. That said,

@believer258 said:

Admittedly it's not the worst fanservice ever but I do agree that it's fairly unnecessary and very tasteless. Oh, yeah, and there's the whole "they are underage" thing.

EDIT: Except swimsuit asscrack. I'm not even an ass man, so it's doubly "uh, no thanks" for me.

I still agree with me. It's pretty gross, but it's not the worst thing that has ever come out of Japan.

Also, let's reiterate, plumber's asscrack is the opposite of sexy.

#378 Edited by Hunter5024 (5187 posts) -

How dare they sexualize fictional teenagers before the arbitrary age assigned to them by their creators matches the arbitrary age assigned by our laws. GRAGH!

#379 Posted by SpunkyDragonwithDeadlyLegs (13 posts) -

^this :)

but sorry for reigniting this debate for you guys. I just wanted to get that off my chest and this was one of the only ones on the subject that I could find that still allowed comments.

#380 Posted by TheSilentTruth (1105 posts) -

Yeah... Some of these skins strike me as something I'll buy just because I have the money, use once, feel really awkward, and immediately switch to the suits. I even feel weird about using the bikinis.

...And this is from someone who likes Ikkitousen.

#381 Posted by SunBroZak (853 posts) -

Had this been in a game like Disgaea, where one of the main characters is dressed in a skimpy outfit anyway, it wouldn't be so weird. It just seems out of place in Persona. But whatever. Different strokes for different folks.

#382 Posted by SaturdayNightSpecials (2237 posts) -

Yeah that sucks, and it exists precisely because of people who label you a prude for disapproving. They happily eat up any cheap sexual pandering that's put in front of them.

#383 Posted by Jedted (2260 posts) -

I saw that cutscene with naked Marie as a reward for all the time i took to S-Link with her(also for that crazy boss battle). :-p

#384 Edited by Fattony12000 (6376 posts) -

What's really gross is that I still can't jerk it off so right to this game.

Disgusting.

#385 Posted by bigjeffrey (4176 posts) -

#386 Posted by Hunter5024 (5187 posts) -

@hunter5024 said:

How dare they sexualize fictional teenagers before the arbitrary age assigned to them by their creators matches the arbitrary age assigned by our laws. GRAGH!

To be clear, I'm not saying it's dumb to be upset about this, but it is dumb to be upset about it just because the fictional characters haven't had their fictional 18th birthday party yet.

#387 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19179 posts) -

@hunter5024 said:

How dare they sexualize fictional teenagers before the arbitrary age assigned to them by their creators matches the arbitrary age assigned by our laws. GRAGH!

To be clear, I'm not saying it's dumb to be upset about this, but it is dumb to be upset about it just because the fictional characters haven't had their fictional 18th birthday party yet.

Yeah, because that's exactly what my argument was in the OP! Your stupidly sarcastic statement is a very accurate assessment concerning what my problem was with the fanservice!

Well done, you make the most eloquent of arguments.

#389 Edited by Hunter5024 (5187 posts) -

@fluxwavez: I was not referring to you, in Naoto's case Im actually with you on this one. It was something that a lot of other people brought up throughout the thread though.

#390 Edited by JohnTunoku (89 posts) -

Moreso dumb then gross. They are all 16+, which is the age of consent in most countries. I suppose I could see how you would be confused if you didn't know how the japanese school system worked and thus would think they are all much younger then they are though.

#391 Posted by CornBREDX (4459 posts) -

Wait.

Them having kinky outfits and a added scene in the bathhouse with them covered up by only soap removes all traces of their character development? How did that happen?

I'm so confused!

#392 Posted by e30bmw (356 posts) -

How is this thread still alive?

#393 Posted by ch3burashka (4914 posts) -

Fan service is weird. Unless it's part of the initial package, I don't give an eff. I remember being surprised at the alt. costumes in P3FES (I guess they weren't available in P3?). However, it quickly became ye olde armor choice - what has the best stats? Seeing girls I don't really care about in bikinis in 480p was a bonus... I guess?

As for the anime scenes.... CAHM AHN!

#394 Posted by GnaTSoL (779 posts) -

Since I watch anime, understand Japan quirkiness, realize this is fiction, and don't hold something showing more skin as a big issue...

I'm absolutely fine with this. They can do what they want. The last thing these Jap developers should do is live & die on american morals that tend to be backwards and close-minded.

These costumes and the game ain't for me but good on them for doing what they want to do. Don't settle for censoring yourself cause others like to spout about how their insides tend to quiver easily.

#395 Edited by Hailinel (22752 posts) -

@gnatsol: Your points are valid, but difficult to take seriously when you casually toss in a slur.

#396 Posted by Darji (5295 posts) -

Wait.

Them having kinky outfits and a added scene in the bathhouse with them covered up by only soap removes all traces of their character development? How did that happen?

I'm so confused!

Because teenager are pure and innocent XD

@hailinel Sadly most people do not know that the term "JAP" is pretty racist. I am pretty sure it is such a case here.

#397 Edited by GnaTSoL (779 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@gnatsol: Your points are valid, but difficult to take seriously when you casually toss in a slur.

where's the slur? :O

Edit: Come on now..... An abbreviation of the word JAPAN is considered racist? Please tell me you're joking cause that makes no sense to me. Not my intentions to throw out a slur but what a dumb thing to consider a insult if true.... :(

#398 Posted by Video_Game_King (34657 posts) -
Online
#399 Posted by Hailinel (22752 posts) -

@gnatsol said:

@hailinel said:

@gnatsol: Your points are valid, but difficult to take seriously when you casually toss in a slur.

where's the slur? :O

Edit: Come on now..... An abbreviation of the word JAPAN is considered racist? Please tell me you're joking cause that makes no sense to me. Not my intentions to throw out a slur but what a dumb thing to consider a insult if true.... :(

No. The word has been a slur against Japanese people for a very long time and was used in anti-Japanese World War II propaganda. It absolutely is an offensive term.

#400 Edited by Darji (5295 posts) -

@gnatsol said:

@hailinel said:

@gnatsol: Your points are valid, but difficult to take seriously when you casually toss in a slur.

where's the slur? :O

Edit: Come on now..... An abbreviation of the word JAPAN is considered racist? Please tell me you're joking cause that makes no sense to me. Not my intentions to throw out a slur but what a dumb thing to consider a insult if true.... :(

Not really. There is a reason why at Olympics for example they use JPN. JAP is as bad as the N word. But then Again I am pretty sure you did not know about this and it was never your intention to use a slur in the first place.

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