Will Persona 5 be big enough?

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#51 Posted by believer258 (11563 posts) -

Isn't the game's quality more important than its length? Chrono Trigger might well be the best JRPG ever made and it's only around 25-30 hours. Frankly, for as much as I enjoyed Persona 3 FES, I would be far more likely to replay it if its length fell below the fifty hour mark. Much of that length was possible because both Persona games include small areas that you run through many, many times, random dungeon floors consisting of pre-made tiles, and boatloads of writing and dialogue.

I can't say that I know what to expect from Persona 5. I'm pretty sure it's going to include everything that makes a Persona game (social links, dungeon-crawling at night, etc.). Or, at least, what made Persona 3 and 4 - I don't think the first and second games had those things. For right now, I mostly want to know what this game looks like. Is it a more realistic-looking anime style? Are the dungeons random or pre-designed? Are we going to get anime cutscenes or pre-rendered ones?

#52 Posted by EXTomar (4446 posts) -

The key is not "being big enough" but having the right budget for the market. Atlus/Sega can make a bunch of money if they budget for 200k and it sells way more than that. Or they can screw up badly by assuming they can make a 1m and not get close.

#53 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@believer258: Chrono Trigger may not be the best example to cite here, as that game was designed with multiple playthroughs in mind and popularized the whole New Game Plus concept.

A full-length modern JRPG in the thirty-hour range could be startlingly hit or miss. It's about how long it takes to complete Eternal Sonata, and what flaws that game has are not due to its length. The Last Story can be completed in twenty to twenty-five hours without missing the important meat of what it has to offer. But then there are games like Xenosaga Episode II, whicih despite being on two PS2 discs is a much shorter game than Episode I, rushes to the endgame, and then throws padding at you in the form of optional sidequests before the final dungeon. The pacing is just off and feels like it should have been a longer game.

I doubt that Persona 5 is going to be of the thirty-hour variety. It will probably be of comparable length to Persona 3 and 4, meaning that there will be a significantly greater time commitment required to complete it.

#54 Posted by Zeik (2192 posts) -

I can't say that I know what to expect from Persona 5. I'm pretty sure it's going to include everything that makes a Persona game (social links, dungeon-crawling at night, etc.). Or, at least, what made Persona 3 and 4

I'm not so sure of that actually. The jump to the next gen tends to be when they make major changes and they've implied as much about P5 in past interviews. I'm sure the game will be much more reminiscent of those games than P1 or P2, but the specifics that gave those games their particular identity I don't expect to return, at least not in the same form. I'm sure we'll see some evolution of the Social Link system, for example, but if the game is structured exactly the same as P3/P4 then they kind of fucked up.

#55 Posted by Zeik (2192 posts) -
@hailinel said:

@believer258: Chrono Trigger may not be the best example to cite here, as that game was designed with multiple playthroughs in mind and popularized the whole New Game Plus concept.

A full-length modern JRPG in the thirty-hour range could be startlingly hit or miss. It's about how long it takes to complete Eternal Sonata, and what flaws that game has are not due to its length. The Last Story can be completed in twenty to twenty-five hours without missing the important meat of what it has to offer. But then there are games like Xenosaga Episode II, whicih despite being on two PS2 discs is a much shorter game than Episode I, rushes to the endgame, and then throws padding at you in the form of optional sidequests before the final dungeon. The pacing is just off and feels like it should have been a longer game.

I doubt that Persona 5 is going to be of the thirty-hour variety. It will probably be of comparable length to Persona 3 and 4, meaning that there will be a significantly greater time commitment required to complete it.

30 hours might be short, but P3 and P4 were also way longer than average. I think the safer bet is somewhere in-between.

#56 Edited by believer258 (11563 posts) -

@zeik said:
@believer258 said:

I can't say that I know what to expect from Persona 5. I'm pretty sure it's going to include everything that makes a Persona game (social links, dungeon-crawling at night, etc.). Or, at least, what made Persona 3 and 4

I'm not so sure of that actually. The jump to the next gen tends to be when they make major changes and they've implied as much about P5 in past interviews. I'm sure the game will be much more reminiscent of those games than P1 or P2, but the specifics that gave those games their particular identity I don't expect to return, at least not in the same form. I'm sure we'll see some evolution of the Social Link system, for example, but if the game is structured exactly the same as P3/P4 then they kind of fucked up.

Well, it's only happened once before with the Persona games, right? From PS1 - PS2?

Besides, Persona 3 is pretty much the game that made people in the West notice Atlus and Persona 4 was quite a moneymaker for them. Atlus is something of a niche company, anyway, and I don't think they'll let a money-making formula change anywhere near as much as Persona 3 changed from Persona 2. I think the core of what made Persona 3 and 4 work will probably still be in Persona 5.

Most of Atlus's other Shin Megami Tensei spin-offs seem to be limited to one or two games and the main SMT series has only had a drastic change once (SMT2 - SMT3, with an old-school callback in the form of Strange Journey).

This is still speculation, though, and no one really has firm ground to stand on in their guesses. So maybe Persona 5 will be a first person shooter with zombies in it or something. And a cameo from Sonic or Hatsune Miku. I kind of hate the idea of those two making appearances in a Persona game, but some part of me will also be disappointed if one of them doesn't show up. I don't know how to explain that one.

@hailinel said:

@believer258: Chrono Trigger may not be the best example to cite here, as that game was designed with multiple playthroughs in mind and popularized the whole New Game Plus concept.

A full-length modern JRPG in the thirty-hour range could be startlingly hit or miss. It's about how long it takes to complete Eternal Sonata, and what flaws that game has are not due to its length. The Last Story can be completed in twenty to twenty-five hours without missing the important meat of what it has to offer. But then there are games like Xenosaga Episode II, whicih despite being on two PS2 discs is a much shorter game than Episode I, rushes to the endgame, and then throws padding at you in the form of optional sidequests before the final dungeon. The pacing is just off and feels like it should have been a longer game.

I doubt that Persona 5 is going to be of the thirty-hour variety. It will probably be of comparable length to Persona 3 and 4, meaning that there will be a significantly greater time commitment required to complete it.

I just meant pacing. It's all in the pacing. I'd rather have a startlingly short but still brilliant Persona game than a "meh" one that lasts for a hundred hours.

#57 Posted by ElmerGlue (29 posts) -

The real question is will we get an endurance run of Persona 5.

#58 Posted by Zeik (2192 posts) -

@believer258: It's pretty common with a lot of the franchise. SMT's most major change was with Nocturne, but SMT4 still had some pretty big changes. Devil Summoner also saw some big changes on the PS2 with the Raidou series.

I definitely don't expect anything as radical as the change from P2 to P3. They definitely struck gold with a lot of the elements of those games, but I there's definitely middle ground between that and the very limited changes from P3 to P4. I expect much bigger changes than that, even if it's still very recognizably that kind of Persona.

#59 Edited by probablytuna (3524 posts) -

@fluxwavez: Ok, I'm fine with that. Now I just hope that it's fully voice acted.....

#60 Edited by ch3burashka (4992 posts) -

@ch3burashka said:

Will that thing that was just announced into existence live up to your whack expectations?

... but is it BIG enough?

Rumor has it it will be sold as a set of 17 Laser Discs.

#61 Posted by geirr (2469 posts) -

I think a more compact Persona experience would be interesting. I highly doubt P5 will be that though.

#62 Edited by pyrodactyl (1856 posts) -

The real question is will we get an endurance run of Persona 5.

And the real answer is no

@fluxwavez: Ok, I'm fine with that. Now I just hope that it's fully voice acted.....

Again, if full voice acting means way less dialogue and story I would pass on that.

#63 Posted by DBrim (124 posts) -

I would be totally happy with a 25-30 hour Persona 5 if it tells a good story along the way. Games longer than that are hard for me to finish these days, anyways.

#64 Posted by casper_ (901 posts) -

i really hope they arent afraid to take some risks and be a bit ambitious. sometimes it feels like japanese games can be a little conservative but if any franchise was going to avoid oppressive jrpg cliches it'd probably be persona.

#65 Posted by ryanwhom (290 posts) -

@geirr said:

I think a more compact Persona experience would be interesting. I highly doubt P5 will be that though.

That's sorta what Devil Survivor is. At least insofar as teens saving or destroying the world with demons, social links, compendium, etc. Plays a bit different though.

#66 Posted by Crembaw (307 posts) -

If the numbers make sense, there will be a 360 port. If they don't make sense, there will not be a 360 port. I don't know the numbers, so I can't say either way.

As for content, hell man, that term is too subjective to mean anything until we get our hands on it. There may very well be less 'thingunits' to do or collect or talk with in P5 but it might end up being a tighter experience overall. Conversely there could be a million new systems that barely interlock and turn it into a convoluted slog that lasts 300+ hours. The reverse could happen too -- maybe the tighter experience is just less interesting, or the million systems actually interlock perfectly. It's all up in the air right now.

@casper_ said:

i really hope they arent afraid to take some risks and be a bit ambitious. sometimes it feels like japanese games can be a little conservative but if any franchise was going to avoid oppressive jrpg cliches it'd probably be persona.

Persona 4 clings pretty hard to some super-common general RPG cliches, though. Like the part where the game says "No, the REAL villain was THIS GUY" Five fucking times, or Friendship overcoming All Barriers. I love that game, but let's not just give a free pass here, there were some real eyerollers in there.

#67 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@crembaw said:

If the numbers make sense, there will be a 360 port. If they don't make sense, there will not be a 360 port. I don't know the numbers, so I can't say either way.

As for content, hell man, that term is too subjective to mean anything until we get our hands on it. There may very well be less 'thingunits' to do or collect or talk with in P5 but it might end up being a tighter experience overall. Conversely there could be a million new systems that barely interlock and turn it into a convoluted slog that lasts 300+ hours. The reverse could happen too -- maybe the tighter experience is just less interesting, or the million systems actually interlock perfectly. It's all up in the air right now.

@casper_ said:

i really hope they arent afraid to take some risks and be a bit ambitious. sometimes it feels like japanese games can be a little conservative but if any franchise was going to avoid oppressive jrpg cliches it'd probably be persona.

Persona 4 clings pretty hard to some super-common general RPG cliches, though. Like the part where the game says "No, the REAL villain was THIS GUY" Five fucking times, or Friendship overcoming All Barriers. I love that game, but let's not just give a free pass here, there were some real eyerollers in there.

But I want my anime cliches and JRPG stereotypes. I want corny and cheesy moments. That is why I play JRPGs^^

#68 Posted by Crembaw (307 posts) -

Then that's your right. But personally I will not shed a tear if, say, Friendship doesn't save the day in P5.

#69 Posted by Hunter5024 (5508 posts) -

@crembaw said:

"No, the REAL villain was THIS GUY" Five fucking times

It would be pretty boring if there was a murder mystery where they found out who the murderer was on the first try.

#70 Edited by Karmosin (207 posts) -

Victory and strength through bonds is kinda the point of the series though, atleast since persona 3.

I hope they'll make some kind of jump from persona 3 and 4. Atleast make the social link-mechanics deeper, give us a bigger overworld, make the dungeons more detailed and maybe even put some new mechanics into the combat system (although I don't think I want it to leave the turn-based system).

#71 Edited by RonGalaxy (2839 posts) -

Question About Persona 4 Golden:

Does the game ever open up, or is it dialogue-battle-dialogue-battle for the whole game? I don't have a problem with that, I was just expecting something different. Im 3 hours in, by the way.

#72 Posted by Mcfart (1537 posts) -

Question About Persona 4 Golden:

Does the game ever open up, or is it dialogue-battle-dialogue-battle for the whole game? I don't have a problem with that, I was just expecting something different. Im 3 hours in, by the way.

Open up in what way? The dungeons are typical get-to-the-top-floor while killing mobs (with dialogue along the way), but that's the least interesting part of the game. Most of it is spent in the real world social-linking.

#73 Posted by Lyisa (324 posts) -

@crembaw said:

"No, the REAL villain was THIS GUY" Five fucking times

It would be pretty boring if there was a murder mystery where they found out who the murderer was on the first try.

That would be hilarious, especially if the game went on for another 60 hours.

#74 Edited by biospank (647 posts) -

Catherine is a puzzle game with visual novel like elements to it or minor rpg elements. But still, I believe that these people know what they are doing. Its not like you can't speed run persona games I did it with persona4 and it took me under 20 hours, still allot of fun.

#75 Posted by MonetaryDread (1987 posts) -

I would be more willing to replay a Persona game if they had to the option to skip cinematics entirely and remove the awful relationship-sim aspect of the series.

#76 Edited by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

I would be more willing to replay a Persona game if they had to the option to skip cinematics entirely and remove the awful relationship-sim aspect of the series.

Sounds like Persona just isn't for you.

#77 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4515 posts) -

I think it's funny that some users can't entertain the possibility that Persona 5 will appear on another console than the PS3. I'm willing to give Atlus more credit than to believe that they produce games with shoestrings and duct tape.

#78 Edited by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

Question About Persona 4 Golden:

Does the game ever open up, or is it dialogue-battle-dialogue-battle for the whole game? I don't have a problem with that, I was just expecting something different. Im 3 hours in, by the way.

It opens up more, certainly. The first four or so hours of the game are super-heavy on the exposition.

#79 Posted by RonGalaxy (2839 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@naru_joe93 said:

Question About Persona 4 Golden:

Does the game ever open up, or is it dialogue-battle-dialogue-battle for the whole game? I don't have a problem with that, I was just expecting something different. Im 3 hours in, by the way.

It opens up more, certainly. The first four or so hours of the game are super-heavy on the exposition.

Yeah, I just started to break through a bit; just beat the first dungeon and found out you have to balance your time between the tv world and the real world carefully, which is what I expected.

#80 Posted by MonetaryDread (1987 posts) -

@hailinel: Pretty much. I have yet to make it longer than thirty hours into a persona game.

Its weird, some RPG's I can put a near infinite amount of time into. Take the Nippon Ichi SRPG's, I have put almost 700 hours into Disgaea II, and have played every game they release, sometimes even multiple times. Persona though, I always get the feeling that the series does not respect my time. Text always moves too slow, too many cutscenes, to many moments where I feel like I am forced into busywork, the dialogue choices feel mostly useless, 5 hour long set-ups, etc.

#81 Edited by Crembaw (307 posts) -

@karmosin said:

Victory and strength through bonds is kinda the point of the series though, atleast since persona 3.

I hope they'll make some kind of jump from persona 3 and 4. Atleast make the social link-mechanics deeper, give us a bigger overworld, make the dungeons more detailed and maybe even put some new mechanics into the combat system (although I don't think I want it to leave the turn-based system).

Implementing the Press Turn system might be pretty neat - although I guess it is already there in a stripped-down way.

#82 Posted by believer258 (11563 posts) -

I would be more willing to replay a Persona game if they had to the option to skip cinematics entirely and remove the awful relationship-sim aspect of the series.

Well, they at least let you fast forward them in Persona 4 Golden.

Do you mean the social-linking? That's pretty much half the game, why would you play Persona 3 or 4 without that? If you just want to dungeon crawl with Persona 4's mechanics then SMT Nocturne is your game. Few cutscenes, little dialogue, lots and lots and lots of killing demons, gathering demons, fusing demons, getting killed by demons, and exploring a demon-infested apocalypse.

#83 Edited by Flappy (2113 posts) -

@monetarydread said:

I would be more willing to replay a Persona game if they had to the option to skip cinematics entirely and remove the awful relationship-sim aspect of the series.

Well, they at least let you fast forward them in Persona 4 Golden.

Do you mean the social-linking? That's pretty much half the game, why would you play Persona 3 or 4 without that? If you just want to dungeon crawl with Persona 4's mechanics then SMT Nocturne is your game. Few cutscenes, little dialogue, lots and lots and lots of killing demons, gathering demons, fusing demons, getting killed by demons, and exploring a demon-infested apocalypse.

You're free to throw in any of the PS2-era SMT games that came out before Persona 3.

#84 Posted by Hunkulese (2628 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: What does asset generation have to do with anything? P4 had hardly any assets.

Online
#85 Posted by pyrodactyl (1856 posts) -

@hunkulese: how about the hundred different unique persona models? You're right, persona doesn't have a massive number of assets but it has a lot more than Catherine did. I'm just saying we really don't have any evidence that Atlus can even produce the amount of content persona 3 and 4 had in PS3 quality HD

#86 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5135 posts) -

As long as it has DS4 compatibility for the Ps3 then I'll be fine.

#87 Edited by Zeik (2192 posts) -

@pyrodactyl said:

@hunkulese: how about the hundred different unique persona models? You're right, persona doesn't have a massive number of assets but it has a lot more than Catherine did. I'm just saying we really don't have any evidence that Atlus can even produce the amount of content persona 3 and 4 had in PS3 quality HD

Most of those were rehashed from Nocturne/DDS/Devil Summoner. Which I suppose does warrant the question of whether we'll see as many Persona in this game if they have to redo them all. P3 was actually the first game in the series to have anywhere near that many Persona. P1 and P2 had way way way less. On the other hand it used way more unique Persona's than P3 and P4 did.

#88 Posted by Nights (602 posts) -

@hailinel:

Pretty much. I have yet to make it longer than thirty hours into a persona game.

Its weird, some RPG's I can put a near infinite amount of time into. Take the Nippon Ichi SRPG's, I have put almost 700 hours into Disgaea II, and have played every game they release, sometimes even multiple times. Persona though, I always get the feeling that the series does not respect my time. Text always moves too slow, too many cutscenes, to many moments where I feel like I am forced into busywork, the dialogue choices feel mostly useless, 5 hour long set-ups, etc.

It's always interesting to hear other people's perspective of what they think a limited amount of time spent with a game is. It tends to vary drastically. If any game manages to hold my attention for 30 hours I consider that a resounding success. Seriously. I envy you.

#89 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@flappy said:

@believer258 said:

@monetarydread said:

I would be more willing to replay a Persona game if they had to the option to skip cinematics entirely and remove the awful relationship-sim aspect of the series.

Well, they at least let you fast forward them in Persona 4 Golden.

Do you mean the social-linking? That's pretty much half the game, why would you play Persona 3 or 4 without that? If you just want to dungeon crawl with Persona 4's mechanics then SMT Nocturne is your game. Few cutscenes, little dialogue, lots and lots and lots of killing demons, gathering demons, fusing demons, getting killed by demons, and exploring a demon-infested apocalypse.

You're free to throw in any of the PS2-era SMT games that came out before Persona 3.

Yeah and then you look at the sales numbers and see what was more popular. Seriously anything else than more of Persona 4 with long cutscenes, social links and story story story would be really really strange.

#90 Posted by Zeik (2192 posts) -

@darji: P3 and P4 succeeded because they seemed so different and original compared to other RPGs on the market. If this game is just more P4 after all this time it's not going to be received nearly as well.

#91 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@zeik said:

@darji: P3 and P4 succeeded because they seemed so different and original compared to other RPGs on the market. If this game is just more P4 after all this time it's not going to be received nearly as well.

Oh the story and tone like they said will be different. But I for example would never enjoy a game without these extensive Social links, Cutscenes, characters and a ton of story. A pure Dungeoncrawler like the original SMT series would bore me to death.

My perfect PS3 Persona game would be like this: Extensive Social links with a lot of different outcomes and choices. Tons of cutscenes and story with a lot of emotional moments you will never forget. Maybe some death in between. Also a really nice overworld. like in Persona 4 just more "epic" expansive. MAybe different locations like a holyday location. Onsen location, Maybe customization options for your character

And for dungeoncrawling? I do not care as long the battlesystem is turn based and more like Persona 4 with control of all character instead of one like in 3. For the rest I do not care much since the time I spent in dungeons will be as short as possible. Which means like 2-3 runs max for a months or the next dungeon part.

This is why I play Persona. For the story and Social stuff and I am sure many people are thinking the same as me. For dungeon crawling you have the SMT series or other games like the Chibi one.

#92 Posted by Zeik (2192 posts) -

@darji: I'm definitely not suggesting they go pure dungeon crawler. That definitely would go against what people liked about P3 and P4. But I don't think anyone should expect P5 to be structurally identical to P3 and P4. They can still make a Persona game reminiscent of those games while not just making the same type of game over again. (ie, a full school year with social links mixed with dungeon crawling, etc.) There's plenty of ways they could integrate a similar kind of social interaction system that works differently than that.

#93 Edited by believer258 (11563 posts) -

@darji said:

@zeik said:

@darji: P3 and P4 succeeded because they seemed so different and original compared to other RPGs on the market. If this game is just more P4 after all this time it's not going to be received nearly as well.

Oh the story and tone like they said will be different. But I for example would never enjoy a game without these extensive Social links, Cutscenes, characters and a ton of story. A pure Dungeoncrawler like the original SMT series would bore me to death.

My perfect PS3 Persona game would be like this: Extensive Social links with a lot of different outcomes and choices. Tons of cutscenes and story with a lot of emotional moments you will never forget. Maybe some death in between. Also a really nice overworld. like in Persona 4 just more "epic" expansive. MAybe different locations like a holyday location. Onsen location, Maybe customization options for your character

And for dungeoncrawling? I do not care as long the battlesystem is turn based and more like Persona 4 with control of all character instead of one like in 3. For the rest I do not care much since the time I spent in dungeons will be as short as possible. Which means like 2-3 runs max for a months or the next dungeon part.

This is why I play Persona. For the story and Social stuff and I am sure many people are thinking the same as me. For dungeon crawling you have the SMT series or other games like the Chibi one.

Let's be clear here: The dungeon crawling in Nocturne, Strange Journey, and Shin Megami Tensei IV is nothing at all like the dungeon crawling in Personas 3 and 4. The dungeon crawling in the Persona games takes place in floors made up of random tiles, all of which look very similar. The dungeon crawling in the other games, however, usually takes place in pre-determined, well-planned dungeons with traps and treasures and hidden stuff.

Anyway, I don't know where you guys are getting that Persona's dungeons are boring. Play on a higher difficulty if you think that. I'm playing on Hard and it feels just right. I just have a lot of fun with those battles, and they tend to switch things up at least a little every few floors by introducing new enemies with their own skills, strengths, and weaknesses, and you should probably be fusing new guys every few floors to match. When I got to the last half of Persona 3 and getting tired wasn't that much of an issue, I would spend hours and hours in Tartarus just making my way as far as I could. I usually made it to the point where they won't let you go any farther long before I fought that month's boss.

On the subject of Persona 5, though, I want to see what else they can do with this kind of game. Persona 3 came up with it, Persona 4 expanded on it, now do something new with it.

#94 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@believer258: Oh I always play on the hardest one available in the beginning but to me Persona is not about the dungeon crawling but more about the story and the social links. But that is for me the case in almost every JRPG. I see battles as something you have to do to progress and enjoy more of the story and characters.

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