About Phil Fish

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#101 Edited by GrantHeaslip (1626 posts) -

I think it's pretty clear he didn't mean to imply that all Japanese games suck, even if that's exactly what he said. I'm all for taking people at their word, but only to a point. It's also worth remembering that we all say something stupid once in a while, we just don't have a horde of angry people on the internet documenting it.

The bigger issue here is that so much of modern criticism involves making hyperbolic, blanket, and basically inaccurate statements. Nobody wants to hear "the pace of innovation in modern Japanese games is lower than it was 10 years ago", they want to hear "modern Japanese games are awful!" It's not just an issue in games -- I see this in discussions about movies, news, politics, and a host of other stuff. I see it in this thread, in which several people have said "yeah, I agree, Japanese games suck", which is as close to literally incorrect as an opinion can get.

This style of criticism is poisonous to intelligent discussion, and I'm bored as hell with it. An inability to present a nuanced opinion is, to me, basically a signifier of low intelligence, and I don't want to waste my time engaging with people who deal in absolutes.

#102 Edited by connerthekewlkid (1843 posts) -

@pollysmps said:

I'm not really gonna throw stones over the whole Nintendo/Twitter nonsense, both because I've had more than my fair share of knee-jerk rantings at games I was playing at the time and because our opinions match on the whole idea of 3D being a crap gimmick. Destructoid's posting of the article was probably one of the grossest displays of click bait I've seen in a while anyway.

What I really don't get though, is the gaming community getting pissed off at someone with strong opinions that are often worded in a harsh manner when the gaming community itself is fairly well known for its strong and often harsh opinions on the subject of any release or any news item any day of the week. From my perspective it looks like some weird double standard where we're just allowed to be as toxic and non-politically correct as we want, but if someone throws it back at us, they're somehow the bigger asshole. Would it be easier to just avoid the confrontation altogether? Sure. But if all he's doing is giving you your shit back, I don't really get why you have the right to complain.

I'm not trying to really defend the guy, but it's an observation I've held onto for a while and just felt like throwing it out there to not be looked at anyway.

Because he wont actually listen to the other side of the argument and goes back on his own words when it suites him?

In the twitter ruckus he literally blocked anyone trying to make criticisms with his arguments and just went "LOL Butthurt Nintendo fanboys cant get over the fact that there handheld is a gimmick"

#103 Edited by GrantHeaslip (1626 posts) -

@branthog said:

@humanity said:

I think the quintessence of being an adult is being able to get your point across without being crass or condescending. I can tell you why I don't like your favorite band in a calm, civil manner or I can tell you it's fucking garbage. I'm sure you'll be more inclined to listen to one of those forms of argumentation over the other. Sure most of us are adults here but that doesn't mean you need to shit all over something to get your point across, but maybe that's just me.

It depends. I perceive quite a difference between even a flippant statement of something and directly responding to someone by attacking something they like. If you say MGS fucking sucks, that's fine. If I'm talking about how much I enjoy MGS and you respond about how you dislike it, I'd probably expect a reasonable person to offer more than "it fucking sucks", as you mentioned and to use a little tact and give some explanation (otherwise it's not even really a conversation, anyway).

I just sort of see it as the first case; not the second and, therefore I don't really take any issue with it, I guess.

The problem is that said flippant statements are often basically trolling, or at least intellectually vacuous. They may not be as bad as using "it fucking sucks" in a debate, but they're also not valuable, and poison adult discussion.

It also doesn't help that in this case, Fish was aggressively insulting a polite questioner, and probably knew that doing so was even more insulting in a Japanese context. It was just plain a dick move, and we shouldn't confuse it with being plain-spoken, which is not mutually exclusive with being polite.

#104 Edited by MariachiMacabre (7098 posts) -

I really enjoyed Fez but Fish needs to learn some fucking self control and humility, I think. You can believe that Japanese game development has stagnated this generation without being an asshole. You can also dislike games from a specific developer without insulting their entire fan base. He needs to learn some tact.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that while it's great that Fez is coming to PC and Vita, his flip-flopping is annoying too. "PC is for spreadsheets not games" is not a compatible statement with him deciding to release it on PC. Neither is hurling insults at Japanese developers and then deciding that his game would work on the Vita. It makes him look stupid and I know he's not stupid. I want him to succeed because I loved Fez and I want to see what else he can do but first I want him to learn how not to burn bridges he may need in the future.

#105 Edited by AuthenticM (3812 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@authenticm: Opinions on Fish extend well beyond that. You do nothing for yourself by painting the argument along those lines because, while there are cetainly those that are like that, there are others that dislike Fish for more than just that reason, or for other reasons.

Sure, but I'm refering to the episode of him saying that japanese video games sucks. He was trying to communicate something real about what's been happening in Japan for a while, but did so very poorly with a complete lack of tact. It was a reprehensible thing to say and is the sort of comment one can rightfully get shit for. But he immediately apologized and did so several times after that, and still some people keep giving him shit over this just because they are immature brats reveling in their anonymity. While it's certainly true that he has said other things legitimizing the negative opinions some people have of him, I spend enough time on the Internet and on forums to know that a lot, if not the majority, of people insulting him today are doing so over that very episode simply because they can't let go. And this is why I often take his side when he comes up in conversations.

#106 Edited by AuthenticM (3812 posts) -

@pollysmps said:

What I really don't get though, is the gaming community getting pissed off at someone with strong opinions that are often worded in a harsh manner when the gaming community itself is fairly well known for its strong and often harsh opinions on the subject of any release or any news item any day of the week. From my perspective it looks like some weird double standard where we're just allowed to be as toxic and non-politically correct as we want, but if someone throws it back at us, they're somehow the bigger asshole. Would it be easier to just avoid the confrontation altogether? Sure. But if all he's doing is giving you your shit back, I don't really get why you have the right to complain.

Very smart comment. Yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy on the Internet.

(sorry for the double post, but we still cannot edit our posts by adding quotes and write under them. This needs to be fixed.)

#107 Edited by tourgen (4542 posts) -

He consistently has more interesting things to say than John Blow. Also Fez is kind of cool, maybe not all it was made out to be, but still pretty interesting. I'd like to see something similar but with real game mechanics.

#108 Posted by MarkWahlberg (4610 posts) -

My only problem with him had more to do with everyone in that Indie game movie sounding like an insufferable brat, but that could easily have just been the editor's fault.

#109 Edited by GrantHeaslip (1626 posts) -

@pollysmps said:

What I really don't get though, is the gaming community getting pissed off at someone with strong opinions that are often worded in a harsh manner when the gaming community itself is fairly well known for its strong and often harsh opinions on the subject of any release or any news item any day of the week. From my perspective it looks like some weird double standard where we're just allowed to be as toxic and non-politically correct as we want, but if someone throws it back at us, they're somehow the bigger asshole. Would it be easier to just avoid the confrontation altogether? Sure. But if all he's doing is giving you your shit back, I don't really get why you have the right to complain.

Very smart comment. Yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy on the Internet.

(sorry for the double post, but we still cannot edit our posts by adding quotes and write under them. This needs to be fixed.)

It goes both ways though -- there's a lot of shitty condescension aimed at the apparent homogeneous cesspool of internet commenters by people in the games industry and press, even though many of them regularly say stuff that would be utterly at home (or maybe even seen as crossing a line) in a comment thread.

#110 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@authenticm: Opinions on Fish extend well beyond that. You do nothing for yourself by painting the argument along those lines because, while there are cetainly those that are like that, there are others that dislike Fish for more than just that reason, or for other reasons.

Sure, but I'm refering to the episode of him saying that japanese video games sucks. He was trying to communicate something real about what's been happening in Japan for a while, but did so very poorly with a complete lack of tact. It was a reprehensible thing to say and is the sort of comment one can rightfully get shit for. But he immediately apologized and did so several times after that, and still some people keep giving him shit over this just because they are immature brats reveling in their anonymity. While it's certainly true that he has said other things legitimizing the negative opinions some people have of him, I spend enough time on the Internet and on forums to know that a lot, if not the majority, of people insulting him today are doing so over that very episode simply because they can't let go. And this is why I often take his side when he comes up in conversations.

This conversation isn't just about that one specific episode.

#111 Posted by Subjugation (4754 posts) -

Dude seemed pretty cool to me on the stream. And no, I'm not going to actively go digging into someone's past so I can hate on them.

#112 Posted by Branthog (5611 posts) -

@branthog said:

@humanity said:

I think the quintessence of being an adult is being able to get your point across without being crass or condescending. I can tell you why I don't like your favorite band in a calm, civil manner or I can tell you it's fucking garbage. I'm sure you'll be more inclined to listen to one of those forms of argumentation over the other. Sure most of us are adults here but that doesn't mean you need to shit all over something to get your point across, but maybe that's just me.

It depends. I perceive quite a difference between even a flippant statement of something and directly responding to someone by attacking something they like. If you say MGS fucking sucks, that's fine. If I'm talking about how much I enjoy MGS and you respond about how you dislike it, I'd probably expect a reasonable person to offer more than "it fucking sucks", as you mentioned and to use a little tact and give some explanation (otherwise it's not even really a conversation, anyway).

I just sort of see it as the first case; not the second and, therefore I don't really take any issue with it, I guess.

The problem is that said flippant statements are often basically trolling, or at least intellectually vacuous. They may not be as bad as using "it fucking sucks" in a debate, but they're also not valuable, and poison adult discussion.

It also doesn't help that in this case, Fish was aggressively insulting a polite questioner, and probably knew that doing so was even more insulting in a Japanese context. It was just plain a dick move, and we shouldn't confuse it with being plain-spoken, which is not mutually exclusive with being polite.

I totally see your point. I just don't see it as this egregious thing, other than it's one of only the few things we even know about Phil (for most of us, at least). I concede that my opinion of him is probably far more arbitrary than anything else, though.

#113 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

Guy made a cool game, has played games his whole life so is entitled to have opinions about games... Japanese games did suck this generation.

#114 Posted by dudeglove (8510 posts) -

At least he's not David Cage.

#115 Posted by kishinfoulux (2562 posts) -

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

#116 Posted by Alexander (1725 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

#117 Edited by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

#118 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

Replaced by Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls, Bioshock, Walking Dead, Xcom, Forza, Halo, Fez, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dead Space, Mirrors Edge, Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, Company of Heroes, GTA IV, Tomb Raider, Sleeping Dogs, Saints Row.... But yeah you could just say it's replaced with COD...

#119 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

Yes with the old Square you could say that you can't really make that argument when the only Final Fantasy games we have had this generation are FFXIII, XIII-2 and soon to be released the completely different XIII-3...

What happened to the PS1 era of FF, 7-9 with in 3 years of each over, different worlds, characters and battle systems. Me like Phil Fish misses those developers.

#120 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

Yes with the old Square you could say that you can't really make that argument when the only Final Fantasy games we have had this generation are FFXIII, XIII-2 and soon to be released the completely different XIII-3...

What happened to the PS1 era of FF, 7-9 with in 3 years of each over, different worlds, characters and battle systems. Me like Phil Fish misses those developers.

New avatar, same dickish trolling, I see. I wasn't talking about spin-offs and direct sequels to the mainline.

#121 Edited by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

He said Japanese games industry sucks. If you shame glorious Nippon, you should commit sudoku!

Errr, you meant Seppuku right?

#122 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw said:

He said Japanese games industry sucks. If you shame glorious Nippon, you should commit sudoku!

Errr, you meant Seppuku right?

Now I'm trying to picture someone trying to kill himself with numeric grid puzzles. That'd be quite an accomplishment.

#123 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@somedelicook said:

@trafalgarlaw said:

He said Japanese games industry sucks. If you shame glorious Nippon, you should commit sudoku!

Errr, you meant Seppuku right?

Now I'm trying to picture someone trying to kill himself with numeric grid puzzles. That'd be quite an accomplishment.

Actually playing Sudoku might kill me faster than slicing my own stomach apart

#124 Posted by TrafalgarLaw (1485 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw said:

He said Japanese games industry sucks. If you shame glorious Nippon, you should commit sudoku!

Errr, you meant Seppuku right?

I really meant sudoku, like this guy

#125 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

Yes with the old Square you could say that you can't really make that argument when the only Final Fantasy games we have had this generation are FFXIII, XIII-2 and soon to be released the completely different XIII-3...

What happened to the PS1 era of FF, 7-9 with in 3 years of each over, different worlds, characters and battle systems. Me like Phil Fish misses those developers.

New avatar, same dickish trolling, I see. I wasn't talking about spin-offs and direct sequels to the mainline.

Yes but I was talking about this generation of consoles. So I don't see your point =)

FFXIII to XIII-3 isn't that different than a annual COD each year if you think about it, so I don't see how my opinion constitutes trolling as you say it?

#126 Posted by PillClinton (3303 posts) -

He seems like a perfectly good guy. Came off as very relatable to me in IGTM. Also, a bit off topic, but I happen to like Fez a lot, despite not even getting into the 'real' game very much at all. For me, it was just a well-made, pretty, fantastically soundtracked, clever and novel platformer.

#127 Edited by JoshS (416 posts) -

@somedelicook said:

@trafalgarlaw said:

He said Japanese games industry sucks. If you shame glorious Nippon, you should commit sudoku!

Errr, you meant Seppuku right?

I really meant sudoku, like this guy

ROFL! How had I never seen that before? Wow hahaha

#128 Posted by PillClinton (3303 posts) -

Guy made a cool game, has played games his whole life so is entitled to have opinions about games... Japanese games did suck this generation.

Also, basically this with a few exceptions.

#129 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

Yes with the old Square you could say that you can't really make that argument when the only Final Fantasy games we have had this generation are FFXIII, XIII-2 and soon to be released the completely different XIII-3...

What happened to the PS1 era of FF, 7-9 with in 3 years of each over, different worlds, characters and battle systems. Me like Phil Fish misses those developers.

New avatar, same dickish trolling, I see. I wasn't talking about spin-offs and direct sequels to the mainline.

Yes but I was talking about this generation of consoles. So I don't see your point =)

FFXIII to XIII-3 isn't that different than a annual COD each year if you think about it, so I don't see how my opinion constitutes trolling as you say it?

Two years separate the release of each FFXIII. (2009, 2011, 2013 (presumably) for Japanese release dates, 2010, 2012, and presumably early 2014 for North America if the pattern holds.) The games are being produced at roughly the same pace that it took to publish VII, VIII, and IX.

Also, the differences between XIII and XIII-2 are greater than you really give it credit for. They changed the way that the leveling system works, they changed combat to include two completely new party members and a third exchangeable monster character, they created much more expansive environments, opened up the story, and generally made the game bigger and more explorable. This would not have been as easy to do had they not already developed a library of assets during Final Fantasy XIII's development. If they had jumped straight into developing FFXV, it would have likely taken them significantly longer to make because they would redo the design from complete scratch. They were also busy with having to fix Final Fantasy XIV and spent resources on acquiring Eidos and releasing games like Deus Ex, Tomb Raider, and Sleeping Dogs. Square Enix isn't just a Final Fantasy house, and whether I have to wait another three to five years for a proper FFXV doesn't bother me since making large games tends to take time these days.

But in any case, no, it's not the same as an annual Call of Duty because the Final Fantasy XIII series isn't annual.

#130 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@hailinel said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

Yes with the old Square you could say that you can't really make that argument when the only Final Fantasy games we have had this generation are FFXIII, XIII-2 and soon to be released the completely different XIII-3...

What happened to the PS1 era of FF, 7-9 with in 3 years of each over, different worlds, characters and battle systems. Me like Phil Fish misses those developers.

New avatar, same dickish trolling, I see. I wasn't talking about spin-offs and direct sequels to the mainline.

Yes but I was talking about this generation of consoles. So I don't see your point =)

FFXIII to XIII-3 isn't that different than a annual COD each year if you think about it, so I don't see how my opinion constitutes trolling as you say it?

Two years separate the release of each FFXIII. (2009, 2011, 2013 (presumably) for Japanese release dates, 2010, 2012, and presumably early 2014 for North America if the pattern holds.) The games are being produced at roughly the same pace that it took to publish VII, VIII, and IX.

Also, the differences between XIII and XIII-2 are greater than you really give it credit for. They changed the way that the leveling system works, they changed combat to include two completely new party members and a third exchangeable monster character, they created much more expansive environments, opened up the story, and generally made the game bigger and more explorable. This would not have been as easy to do had they not already developed a library of assets during Final Fantasy XIII's development. If they had jumped straight into developing FFXV, it would have likely taken them significantly longer to make because they would redo the design from complete scratch. They were also busy with having to fix Final Fantasy XIV and spent resources on acquiring Eidos and releasing games like Deus Ex, Tomb Raider, and Sleeping Dogs. Square Enix isn't just a Final Fantasy house, and whether I have to wait another three to five years for a proper FFXV doesn't bother me since making large games tends to take time these days.

But in any case, no, it's not the same as an annual Call of Duty because the Final Fantasy XIII series isn't annual.

So how is FFXIII-2 any different from Black Ops 2, both took 2 years to make after the first game, both extended the story, both added new characters, both added new leveling up system and I don't even really like COD =)

I loved every FF before 13 (minus FFX-2 of course) so you can't call me a troll just because I didn't like it and really didn't like that they decided to flush out the assets and monsters to another 2 games.

#131 Edited by jakob187 (21788 posts) -

This sounds like a topic for @sweep. His hatred for Phil Fish and James McAvoy knows no bounds...or language censorship.

#132 Edited by Kidable (127 posts) -

Phil Fish is not a bad person at all. It's just his opinions are grounded more in reality than most other devs when discussing the state of the industry. He came out and called out a country that used to produce fantastic games that inspired the western devs we know today, and said they've fallen down in both quality and relevance. Which is not completely ridiculous, to me anyway.

#133 Posted by Alexander (1725 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@kishinfoulux said:

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

I don't really see how that's a worse prospect than yet another Final Fantasy but OK.

A new Final Fantasy (as in mainline series) isn't released every year and tend to have a great deal more variety in terms of character, presentation, and gameplay than an annual COD installment.

You would know more about the series than I but from what I can tell the formula stays much the same, the differences are more apparent to fans of the series, similarly the changes to multiplayer modes in Call of Duty get picked apart by people who play it, fans recognise the difference between what the development teams produce. Currently Call of Duty has two main game threads on a staggered 2-year development. That wasn't always the case and up until more recently the Treyarch output was considered the second-class citizen.

There was a point when a Final Fantasy was coming out each year but that's some time ago, in it's heyday. There isn't the anticipation for Final Fantasy that there once was (at least not for Western audiences), it's a symptom of a tired formula. The Call of Duty formula has defined a generation of shooters, it's the biggest selling entertainment franchise of all time, but to me the quality the original IW team put out hasn't been matched and at some point it's going to get tired for the masses, the difference is it's still fresher and vastly more popular than Final Fantasy, but it will probably get there.

#134 Edited by Levio (1786 posts) -

He lied to people about never planning to release it to PC just so he could tempt more people to get it on XBL. That's an asshole thing to do.

Edit: Forgot to mention he mocked PC gaming in the process. Yes, he mocked PC gaming 1 year before releasing his game on PC.

#135 Edited by Ace829 (2083 posts) -

I think it's pretty clear he didn't mean to imply that all Japanese games suck, even if that's exactly what he said. I'm all for taking people at their word, but only to a point. It's also worth remembering that we all say something stupid once in a while, we just don't have a horde of angry people on the internet documenting it.

The bigger issue here is that so much of modern criticism involves making hyperbolic, blanket, and basically inaccurate statements. Nobody wants to hear "the pace of innovation in modern Japanese games is lower than it was 10 years ago", they want to hear "modern Japanese games are awful!" It's not just an issue in games -- I see this in discussions about movies, news, politics, and a host of other stuff. I see it in this thread, in which several people have said "yeah, I agree, Japanese games suck", which is as close to literally incorrect as an opinion can get.

This style of criticism is poisonous to intelligent discussion, and I'm bored as hell with it. An inability to present a nuanced opinion is, to me, basically a signifier of low intelligence, and I don't want to waste my time engaging with people who deal in absolutes.

I'm struggling to find a way to add to this. Best post in the thread.

#136 Edited by Turambar (6924 posts) -

Fish is very much a self-important asshole. Regardless of the quality of FEZ (which I found alright, but not much more), or the intelligence of his ideas, I very much dislike him as a human being.

#137 Posted by JJWeatherman (14575 posts) -

@levio said:

He lied to people about never planning to release it to PC just so he could tempt more people to get it on XBL. That's an asshole thing to do.

Edit: Forgot to mention he mocked PC gaming in the process. Yes, he mocked PC gaming 1 year before releasing his game on PC.

Jesus, get over it, people. Oh, he talked some trash? ...SO? It's not like he's running for president; he's allowed to speak his mind and perhaps misspeak once or twice. He made a game--by all accounts a good one--and now he's letting more people play it. God, he's the devil.

Stop being so sensitive. Buy the games you're interested in and stop worrying so god damn much about the peripheral BS. Christ.

I feel like this lords-name-in-vain-filled rant was suitable considering today's Easter. You're all welcome.

#138 Edited by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

Replaced by Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls, Bioshock, Walking Dead, Xcom, Forza, Halo, Fez, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dead Space, Mirrors Edge, Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, Company of Heroes, GTA IV, Tomb Raider, Sleeping Dogs, Saints Row.... But yeah you could just say it's replaced with COD...

Dark Souls/Demon's Souls, Nier, Resonance of Fate, Tokyo Jungle, Katamari, Rhythm Heaven, Ace Attorney, Professor Layton, Legend of Heroes, Kid Icarus, Yakuza, Vanquish, Bayonetta, Monster Hunter, Mario, Half-Minute Hero, Dragon's Dogma, Ys, Persona, Theathrythm, Fire Emblem, Kirby. Should I go on?

It is quite impressive how strongly the western audience cling to the illusion that Square Enix is the end all be all of Japanese video game development, and its continued deterioration is indicative of the entire field.

#139 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

He's right about the Japanese industry though, just looking at my stack of PS1 and PS2 games 95% of them are Japanese, where as my Xbox 360 and PS3 stack 95% of them are Western.

Remember when the new Final Fantasy and Resident Evil games were the most anticipated games of the year? I do.

Now it's replaced with COD. Hurray.

Replaced by Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls, Bioshock, Walking Dead, Xcom, Forza, Halo, Fez, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dead Space, Mirrors Edge, Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, Company of Heroes, GTA IV, Tomb Raider, Sleeping Dogs, Saints Row.... But yeah you could just say it's replaced with COD...

Dark Souls/Demon's Souls, Nier, Resonance of Fate, Tokyo Jungle, Katamari, Rhythm Heaven, Ace Attorney, Professor Layton, Legend of Heroes, Kid Icarus, Yakuza, Vanquish, Bayonetta, Monster Hunter, Mario, Half-Minute Hero, Dragon's Dogma, Ys, Persona, Theathrythm, Fire Emblem, Kirby. Should I go on?

It is quite impressive how strongly the western audience cling to the illusion that Square Enix is the end all be all of Japanese video game development, and its continued deterioration is indicative of the entire field.

No please don't, I stopped at Nier =) My comment was just that user assuming that every western game is COD, which is really silly. I'm just giving my opinion on the matter on how one generation of consoles have pretty much gone from Japan dominating my gaming library to now Western games being the majority. Lost Odyssey, FF XIII and Resident Evil 5 are the only Japanese games I have brought this generation. Hired Dark Souls just wasn't my thing seemed quite broken. Might give it another shot when they incorporate co-op.

#140 Edited by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior: I stopped at Halo, so hey, we're even.

On a more serious note though, the idea that Japanese games "suck" this generation is actually completely false. The limited exposure of many of them in the western market is an issue all unto itself, but they have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

#141 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD. And Japanese games have been around more than a decade lol. But please go on because alot of those games you mentioned are last gen, so I would genuinely like to know what I have been missing out on this gen.

#142 Posted by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD.

That doesn't mean I hold any affection towards it. *See all my comments on FPSes in general*

#143 Edited by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD. And Japanese games have been around more than a decade lol. But please go on because alot of those games you mentioned are last gen, so I would genuinely like to know what I have been missing out on this gen.

My comment is on the idea of "good Japanese games this generation." Also, feel free to define what is last gen, what is this gen, and what games gets disqualified as a result from the above list.

#144 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD.

That doesn't mean I hold any affection towards it. *See all my comments on FPSes in general*

That sucks for you, some of the best games have been FPS, HL2, Portal and now Bioshock Infinite... Sucks that you just write off a genre like that.

#145 Posted by BestUsernameEver (4825 posts) -

He says what he thinks, and apparently that makes him 'controversial' or hated. Never understood it, but his Japan comment seemed a little like hasty judgement, but I wouldn't hate a guy because we don't share opinions. In short, the internet community sucks.

#146 Posted by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD.

That doesn't mean I hold any affection towards it. *See all my comments on FPSes in general*

That sucks for you, some of the best games have been FPS, HL2, Portal and now Bioshock Infinite... Sucks that you just write off a genre like that.

You...do know what my comments on FPSes in general are right? And it's rarely a writing off of the genre. Go fish through my comments on Bioshock Infinite if you're curious.

#147 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD. And Japanese games have been around more than a decade lol. But please go on because alot of those games you mentioned are last gen, so I would genuinely like to know what I have been missing out on this gen.

My comment is on the idea of "good Japanese games this generation." Also, feel free to define what is last gen, what is this gen, and what games gets disqualified as a result from the above list.

For example Persona, I'm guessing your talking about 3 and 4 that came out on the PS2 = Last Gen, so don't get confused I am saying Japanese games were lacking this generation, last generation they killed it and the PS2 libary is awesome because of it.

#148 Edited by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD. And Japanese games have been around more than a decade lol. But please go on because alot of those games you mentioned are last gen, so I would genuinely like to know what I have been missing out on this gen.

My comment is on the idea of "good Japanese games this generation." Also, feel free to define what is last gen, what is this gen, and what games gets disqualified as a result from the above list.

For example Persona, I'm guessing your talking about 3 and 4 that came out on the PS2 = Last Gen

So only what system it was released for matters. In that case, P4 easily fits current gen due to being on the Vita and P3 due to being on the PSP.

#149 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD. And Japanese games have been around more than a decade lol. But please go on because alot of those games you mentioned are last gen, so I would genuinely like to know what I have been missing out on this gen.

My comment is on the idea of "good Japanese games this generation." Also, feel free to define what is last gen, what is this gen, and what games gets disqualified as a result from the above list.

For example Persona, I'm guessing your talking about 3 and 4 that came out on the PS2 = Last Gen

So only what system it was released for matters. In that case, P4 easily fits current gen due to being on the Vita and P3 due to being on the PSP.

Then does FFX count as a next gen title because it's on the PSP Vita now? I get what you are saying with P4 though they did add alot of new content.

#150 Posted by Turambar (6924 posts) -

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar said:

@bourbon_warrior said:

@turambar: Well that's surprising since it seems to be the most popular western game in Japan after COD. And Japanese games have been around more than a decade lol. But please go on because alot of those games you mentioned are last gen, so I would genuinely like to know what I have been missing out on this gen.

My comment is on the idea of "good Japanese games this generation." Also, feel free to define what is last gen, what is this gen, and what games gets disqualified as a result from the above list.

For example Persona, I'm guessing your talking about 3 and 4 that came out on the PS2 = Last Gen

So only what system it was released for matters. In that case, P4 easily fits current gen due to being on the Vita and P3 due to being on the PSP.

Then does FFX count as a next gen title because it's on the PSP Vita now? I get what you are saying with P4 though they did add alot of new content.

They added far more content for P3 on the PSP than P4 on the Vita. Also no, one actually has significantly more content, the other is apparently a port and not much more. A better comparison would be the FF3 and FF4 remakes for the DS, and yes, I would consider them current gen games.

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