HD Remakes. Are they even trying?

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#1 Posted by Rheinmetall (153 posts) -

I see no reason of releasing again a PS2 game just to be able to play it on a flat TV with 1080p resolution. That's not the point. They should have made key improvements to the game. I'm not talking for a remake, but at least improve the controls for instance. How hard could have been for them to fix the clunky controls of RE 4? They released the same game! About the trophies: they couldn't have been more uninspired than this. They should have contacted me, I loved the game and surely I would have come with something more clever than 12 story progression based trophies. And no platinum trophy? RE 4 isn't a mini game or something.

Not to mention Silent Hill Collection; as it seems not only they didn't improve anything, but they replaced the original voice acting, with something that is hilariously bad to say the least.

#2 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -

I agree that a lot of these ports have been pretty lazy. I'm not expecting huge impact game changers like allowing you to move while aiming in RE4, but they could at least have remapped the functions to reasonable locations (right stick for aim, please).

#3 Posted by Kiemoe (1055 posts) -

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

#4 Posted by Hizang (8532 posts) -

@Rheinmetall: The controls were not broken at all, its how RES4 is supposed to be played. It's like saying in a few years time if they did say an Unreal 3 HD collection, people saying. "Man why did they not make it play like Call of Duty!"

#5 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -
@Hizang said:

@Rheinmetall: The controls were not broken at all, its how RES4 is supposed to be played. It's like saying in a few years time if they did say an Unreal 3 HD collection, people saying. "Man why did they not make it play like Call of Duty!"

Asking the controls to slightly resemble nearly every other game out there today isn't even remotely close to asking devs to replace rocket jumps with killstreaks. That is a terrible analogy.
#6 Posted by TooWalrus (13198 posts) -

@Axxol said:

Damn, I feel dumb for even trying to defend HD remakes.

I've never played RE4 before. $20 is a totally reasonable price for what's been touted as one of the greatest games so far. The game looks exactly like it used to, just cleaned up so it doesn't look like garbage on modern TVs, and I'm not a bitch, so the controls are probably just fine- they're just part of the game, how it was made to be played. This re-release is perfect for me, and there are probably enough people out there in my situation to justify them doing this, and definitely enough for them to make a profit. There, I don't feel THAT dumb.

#7 Posted by Yummylee (21643 posts) -

In some cases the HD re-releases can be a god-send, like Shadows of The Colossus and its much smoother frame-rate; from what I've read, the original release was near unplayable because of how disastrous the technical aspects were. I personally stand for the HD re-releases since they've so far been games that I haven't played, or the graphics themselves are improved enough that it's worth playing through them again. Both God of War HD re-releases in particular look pretty good. RE4 is just a particularly lazy HD port since the graphics themselves don't even look all that more refined, and according to reviews there are even some frame-rate issues in some areas at that. The trophies are terribly dull, too. It's going to be the same deal with Code: Veronica X, unfortunately.

Expecting them to alter the design of the game is still naive, though. They're not remakes, like you said, and are primarily there to allow people to play through some of their favourite games again (or for the first time, and now at least more accessible to find) with improved graphics and trophies/achievements. They're usually fairly priced as well, given how it's more often a HD collection; more reason as to why the RE4 HD port (and Veronica X too) is one of the worst thus far.

#8 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

The game controls just fine I have no idea what the complaints are about. Maybe you're just bad and mad.
#9 Edited by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

They don't need to try because people are buying these. If you want to point the finger at anyone, point it at PS3 consumers. Like Walrus guy up there who doesn't complain about how RE4's missing the best control option on account of not being a bitch. lol

#10 Posted by TurboMan (7542 posts) -

Try playing Shadows of the Colossus on the PS2... then play it's HD remake.

It depends on who is releasing the games, but there are people making improvements.

#11 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (277 posts) -

They did it with 2 of the Tomb Raider games and while the graphics were fixed and the games' looked better than they did when they were originally released, I would rather have them fix the actual games instead of the graphics.

#12 Edited by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@MrKlorox said:

Asking the controls to slightly resemble nearly every other game out there today

"I won't play it unless it plays like all of my other games!!"

Resident Evil 4 plays amazing, and is essential to the atmosphere. This isn't Dead Space 2. There's no need to change it, not even for a bunch of bitchy gamers.

However, I am not against adding additional options to the controls that weren't there before. Maybe, letting you switch between the classic control scheme, and a slightly edited scheme.

#13 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -

I'm surprised there's no Move support for RE4 on the PS3. The Wii version of RE4 was one of the best games I ever played on that system and it was a PS2 port. Of course I read that the RE5 Move support wasn't all that great.

#14 Posted by mosespippy (4182 posts) -

@Kiemoe said:

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

It depends on other factors too. Trine wasn't on a disc and it had a platinum.

@Rheinmetall: In this case the reason there are only 12 trophies is because it is also on 360. Downloadable games for 360 must have 12 achievements. No more, no less. They didn't bother to make different trophy and achievement sets. Also, there likely wasn't any hooks built into the original code to track anything interesting like did the player walk into such in such secret area or whatnot. They were probably limited to any in game stats that are tracked and did a trigger go off to activate a cutscene. Those are the sorts of things that have hooks built already and 1 line of code can award the trophy (to put it in pseudocode; if cutscene activates then award trophy). Sure it's lazy but these are intended to be played like the originals. Really these should be called remastered editions, not remakes. Gameplay improvements and new features should be in remakes. Remaster = original version with polish; remake = built from scratch with the same ideas, setting, plot, characters and themes as the original. Changing the controls or adding features is for remakes, not remasters.

#15 Posted by Rheinmetall (153 posts) -

@Hizang said:

@Rheinmetall: The controls were not broken at all, its how RES4 is supposed to be played. It's like saying in a few years time if they did say an Unreal 3 HD collection, people saying. "Man why did they not make it play like Call of Duty!"

When there will be an Unreal HD collection, I will probably be one of those that will complain for not having Call of Duty controls. lol

I love old games in general and I spend many hours playing again Playstation games (PS1), or old PC games. I have come to the conclusion that not graphics, but controls is the reason that old games are hardly accesible by today's gamers. But I digress. If they don't want to change anything in the game, I respect that decision, they could have simply release an other PS2 version of the game with extras and stuff, PS2 is still in circulation, but if they want to pass it as a low budget PS3/X360 release it wouldn't harm to make it more playable, not only in terms of graphics, but controls too.

#16 Posted by Rheinmetall (153 posts) -

@xaLieNxGrEyx: I don't know if I can speak on behalf of all the bad/mad, but we would like RE 4 with RE 5 controls.

#17 Posted by Quacktastic (1066 posts) -

The RE4 remake isn't the measuring stick to judge HD remakes by, but they can't change the controls.  Most of the sales are nostalgia and if you mess with the game too much you aren't even selling that.

#18 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -

@Rheinmetall: The port isn't the greatest visually but I really don't see why they need to re-vamp the controls. Probably not much coming from me because I used the 'RE5 controls' for about a minute before switching back to the classic in RE5 and I was rather disgusted that in RE:Mercenaries 3D one could reload and move at the same time...

Also, on the achievements/trophies thing, they aren't all story progression. You probably knew that but anyway... you can choose not to shoot the water (or if going through without any prior knowledge, a person wouldn't even know to do that) for the special scene when you first arrive at the lake, you can run away from the Right Hand of Salazar instead of killing him (which I did the first time I played it back on PS2) and there is the bottle cap achievement. This is all pretty standard in an arcade release. I have a feeling that Capcom was originally intending it to be an XBLA release, put 12 achievements in it and then the decision was made to move it to Games on Demand and bumping up the point values so that they had to do as little work as possible.

Achievements are serious business.

#19 Posted by LiquidPrince (15949 posts) -

@Kiemoe said:

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

You can still get Platinums in downloadable games. There are full games available on PSN such as inFamous and such.

#20 Posted by fenixREVOLUTION (735 posts) -

Unfortunately, some are just quick cash ins, while others seem well intentioned enough. God of War 1 and 2 on PS3 were pretty good, especially 2. But, I didn't see much improvement in Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, but Ico abd Shadow of the Colossus look to be honest improvements over their outings on the PS2. I'm not holding my breath for SH 2 and 3, but I imagine the MGS HD Collection could be another good upressing. Then, you have gameslile RE 4, that even if it were a straight port, I'd buy it again no questions asked.

#21 Posted by obcdexter (602 posts) -

Well, thank you for completely bumming me out about the Silent Hill HD Collection - didn't know they had to redo all the voice-work because of legal issues with

the original cast ... I mean, I can appreciate them trying to cater to the fans as much as possible by at least bringing Mary Elizabeth McGlynn back in, having her

supervise the new voice recordings and even doing some voice work on her own, however ... f*** me if those snippets I watched on YouTube don't sound like

garbage compared to the original ... *sigh*

Anyway, I've also read that said legal issues won't be able to be easily resolved by something that simple, since Guy Cihi (James of SH2 fame) also states he owns

all the rights to his mo-cap recordings - meaning KONAMI would actually have to start from scratch with anything character related if they wanted to keep their little

fantasy of yet another release alive. (They already owe him a buck or two, you know.)

So, here's me hoping that the Collection will get postponed until Cihi and KONAMI's amateurish legal department have settled this and we'll have the original

voice- and mo-cap-work on this damned disc in the end.

Fingers are crossed.

On a more general note: I do appreciate HD versions of older games if they actually benefit from it in more than just the one (obvious) way. Shadow Of The Colossus

runs so much smoother now. Although I'll never understand all that bitching about the original´s technical shortcomings. Sure, it had its issues - no doubt about it -, but,

heck, it was freaking fantastic and absolutely enjoyable from start to finish.

#22 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -
@Napalm said:

@MrKlorox said:

Asking the controls to slightly resemble nearly every other game out there today

"I won't play it unless it plays like all of my other games!!"

Resident Evil 4 plays amazing, and is essential to the atmosphere. This isn't Dead Space 2. There's no need to change it, not even for a bunch of bitchy gamers.

However, I am not against adding additional options to the controls that weren't there before. Maybe, letting you switch between the classic control scheme, and a slightly edited scheme.

"Your post was nothing but bitching. Watch how I purposefully misinterpret what you say."
 
"edit: However I absolutely agree with you."
#23 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Some of these 'HD' re-releases are pathetic. PC emulators can render games at whatever resolution you want and apply additional tweaks to games and they can look fantastic at times.

Just look at this screenshot of Persona 4 via an emulator. It's razor sharp and has hardly any aliasing. If they could port stuff to the current consoles with some anti-aliasing and change the resolution (not just upscale, which some do) then I'd be up for way more of these remakes.

#24 Edited by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@Rheinmetall said:

@xaLieNxGrEyx: I don't know if I can speak on behalf of all the bad/mad, but we would like RE 4 with RE 5 controls.

Like I said before in another thread, RE5 is complete shit and the less 4 it is like it the better.

#25 Posted by ShadowMountain (226 posts) -

General rule:

Games done by BluePoint games are very well done (God of War, Ico&Shadow of the colossus). They improve framerates, do some remodelling, some texture bumps and resoultion. Also proper trophy support etc.

In God of War's case (psp) they even re-did all the fmvs since they didn't look good just upscaling from the psp resolution. In Ico and SoTC they kept in contact with the original creators and consulted them about any slight tweaks they were making so it fit the original creator's intention.

Games done by capcom/ubisoft are quick lazy cashins - only resolution increase and in some cases worse framerate (resi4, prince of persia, splintercell etc) .

Read Eurogamer's digital foundry blog for more info

#26 Posted by huntad (1939 posts) -

Ahhh, internet forums.

#27 Posted by vidiot (2737 posts) -

In some cases HD remakes are just quick and dirty up-scanned games.
Then there's HD versions like Beyond Good and Evil, The Sly Collection and even Ico Collection, where there is not just actual work on new textures, but the actual hardware of the platform is directing rendering the game.
 
It's a shame that from a technical standpoint, nothing new was added to the likes of Resident Evil 4. While it does look considerably better, it's quite clear with those washed out textures that the turn-around for this title wasn't exactly very severe. Personally, I would rather have this new version on a disk of some-sort, but who knows how Capcom is going to handle the immediate future of both RE4 and Coder Veronica re-releases.

#28 Posted by ikwal (225 posts) -

All the HD rereleases I've played have been really well made. The God of War collections look and play fantastic, Ghost of Sparta is probably the most impressive since it's a PSP game. I think remakes are great for people who didn't own a PS2 and missed out on some great games. I don't think they're worth buying if you've played the games before unless you really want to play them again. I think it's pretty easy to tell the remakes that are going to be good from the ones that are just being put out to make some easy money.

#29 Posted by Galiant (2193 posts) -

@Rheinmetall said:

Not to mention Silent Hill Collection; as it seems not only they didn't improve anything, but they replaced the original voice acting, with something that is hilariously bad to say the least.

Not that the original voice acting was any good.

#30 Posted by Branthog (5562 posts) -

It seems like just plugging a PS2 into a CRT would be the better solution. It' show non HD games were meant to be played and I wouldn't consider plugging any of my consoles other than the current generation into an HDTV, because that's not what they were designed for. They were designed for the limitations of the CRT screens.
 
The only downside is that it's difficult to find a lot of these games these days, so you almost have to rely on remakes. *sigh*

#31 Posted by TheHBK (5485 posts) -

I expect higher res textures, not just turning up the output resolution on the geometry. Jesus man.

#32 Posted by Yummylee (21643 posts) -

@Galiant said:

@Rheinmetall said:

Not to mention Silent Hill Collection; as it seems not only they didn't improve anything, but they replaced the original voice acting, with something that is hilariously bad to say the least.

Not that the original voice acting was any good.

Maybe not for most of the cast, though the voice actress for Mary/Maria done an exceptional job. Losing her performance is what really hurts SH2 I believe, and judging from the trailer that shown off the new cast, with a lot of Mary/Maria scenes in particular, the new actress doesn't come close to matching the flurry of emotions Monica Horgan's performance portrays.

#33 Edited by Devil240Z (3365 posts) -

@Kiemoe said:

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

PSN games with platinums:

  • Dead Nation
  • Wipeout HD
  • Trine
  • COD Classic
#34 Posted by project343 (2825 posts) -

@Rheinmetall: Clunky controls? That's half of RE4. You change that, and you might as well release a sequel. The rest I'll agree with, but the core control scheme should have remained the same.

#35 Edited by gorkamorkaorka (442 posts) -

@Rheinmetall said:

I see no reason of releasing again a PS2 game just to be able to play it on a flat TV with 1080p resolution. That's not the point. They should have made key improvements to the game. I'm not talking for a remake, but at least improve the controls for instance. How hard could have been for them to fix the clunky controls of RE 4? They released the same game! About the trophies: they couldn't have been more uninspired than this. They should have contacted me, I loved the game and surely I would have come with something more clever than 12 story progression based trophies. And no platinum trophy? RE 4 isn't a mini game or something.

Not to mention Silent Hill Collection; as it seems not only they didn't improve anything, but they replaced the original voice acting, with something that is hilariously bad to say the least.

Couple things,

  1. An increase in resolution can make worlds of difference in how good a game looks. Look up Super Mario Galaxy being played in 1080p on an emulator on Youtube.
  2. SOTC seems to not suffer from the frame rate drops that its PS2 version had.
  3. Did they call any of these remakes, or has the press called them remakes? If Sony called the SOTC pack, a "remake" then you have a point. If they never used that word and we should have assumed they are ports (because that's all they are) then you have no argument.
  4. I don't know how the technical side of all this works and you don't either, but it may have been very hard. They game could have be coded in some weird way that makes any future change too difficult to fix. Sad to say it, but past RE games kind of needed bad controls to work right since that's how they designed. I'm not saying that's good game design (because its not), but that's just how it is. RE5 controls seem reasonable, but if you're talking straight up 3rd person shooter controls, then no, the game might be way too easy. Again, that's just how it is.
  5. I feel like some kind of apologist now, but this all boils down to money. Not in a "All they care about is the money" but maybe in a "Since so many people already own these games, they are far less likely to purchase them and if we put anymore time into this, we can't turn a profit."

@Kiemoe said:

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

Just flipping a switch? They had to port either a PS2 or Gamecube (or a mix of content) game to a 360 and a PS3. Completely different hardware.

#36 Posted by dagas (2837 posts) -

At least on my TV old games look better than they used to. Playing anything from PS2 and Dreamcast to Mega Drive/Genesis I prefer playing on my LCD rather than on a CRT. Maybe it's because it's only 720p and 32" and not 50" 1080p so the picture isn't blown out that much or maybe my TV is better than avarage on upscaling, but I don't have a problem with old games looking like shit. Except of course FF7 and such, but that looked like shit even on a big CRT because it runs at 320x240 resolution or something like that.

#37 Posted by Rheinmetall (153 posts) -

@vidiot: In Japan there was a disk release of the HD remakes: Biohazard Revival Selection. But it's all in Japanese. (except the voice overs)

#38 Posted by Rheinmetall (153 posts) -

@gorkamorkaorka said:

Couple things,
  1. An increase in resolution can make worlds of difference in how good a game looks. Look up Super Mario Galaxy being played in 1080p on an emulator on Youtube.
  2. SOTC seems to not suffer from the frame rate drops that its PS2 version had.
  3. Did they call any of these remakes, or has the press called them remakes? If Sony called the SOTC pack, a "remake" then you have a point. If they never used that word and we should have assumed they are ports (because that's all they are) then you have no argument.
  4. I don't know how the technical side of all this works and you don't either, but it may have been very hard. They game could have be coded in some weird way that makes any future change too difficult to fix. Sad to say it, but past RE games kind of needed bad controls to work right since that's how they designed. I'm not saying that's good game design (because its not), but that's just how it is. RE5 controls seem reasonable, but if you're talking straight up 3rd person shooter controls, then no, the game might be way too easy. Again, that's just how it is.
  5. I feel like some kind of apologist now, but this all boils down to money. Not in a "All they care about is the money" but maybe in a "Since so many people already own these games, they are far less likely to purchase them and if we put anymore time into this, we can't turn a profit."

1. I agree, but this can already be done perfectly with the PC versions of games. I saw recently a PC version of RE 4 on YouTube and I was amazed.

2. True, but also RE 4 in HD it has been said that it suffers from frame rate issues while the PS2 game didn't have any problem.

3. I know, I wrote it wrong as "remake", but there wasn't a way to edit the title of a topic in forums, so I left it as it was.

4. Quite possibly this might be the case, and a good excuse for the company not to invest their time and money on this.

5. Yes it's all about the money. But if they had made those minor improvements that I'm talking about, more people would be interested to buy the new release. Of course there are suckers like me who buy everything that the companies serve to them, and this is the basic reason why they don't try harder.

#39 Edited by Slaker117 (4842 posts) -

I'm pretty happy with the way the Halo: CE remake is looking.

#40 Posted by Tebbit (4465 posts) -

@Kiemoe said:

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

I know Wipeout HD had a platinum trophy. It's a retail disc now, but for a long time you could only get it via PSN, though I think it's a bit of an anomaly.

#41 Posted by Crash_Happy (690 posts) -

I'm afraid @Hizang is right, RE is what RE is and changing the controls for the HD port does seem to kind of break that. Maybe there's a compromise to be had? Better controls included as an option, not quite modern but better? Would that satisfy anyone or would we then just have people wondering why they didn't go all the way?

@LiquidPrince Those games had disk releases.

#42 Posted by mordukai (7150 posts) -

@Rheinmetall: Your complaint was more directed at the shoddy HD remake Capcom did with RE4. The god of war and the sly cooper remakes were really well made. It seems the remakes coming out from Sony are well made and the ones coming from 3rd party developer lack the same treatment.

@Abyssfull said:

from what I've read, the original release was near unplayable because of how disastrous the technical aspects were.

That is a major exaggeration. ICO didn't have any major technical problems that I can remember and while SotC had frame rate issue once in a while it wasn't to the point where it "near unplayable". Hell, Demon's Souls has more frame rate issues then SotC. Gamers and reviewers just liked making a big deal out of it for some reason.

@Claude said:

I'm surprised there's no Move support for RE4 on the PS3. The Wii version of RE4 was one of the best games I ever played on that system and it was a PS2 port. Of course I read that the RE5 Move support wasn't all that great.

Seems odd that they would port the PS2 version and not the GC version since the GC version looked much better.

#43 Posted by Mmmslash (2168 posts) -

@mosespippy said:

@Kiemoe said:

They don't give platinums for non-disc releases, right? But yeah, HD up-res versions of games are basically just flipping a switch. The days of remakes are over, unfortunately. This is much cheaper.

It depends on other factors too. Trine wasn't on a disc and it had a platinum.

@Rheinmetall: In this case the reason there are only 12 trophies is because it is also on 360. Downloadable games for 360 must have 12 achievements. No more, no less. They didn't bother to make different trophy and achievement sets. Also, there likely wasn't any hooks built into the original code to track anything interesting like did the player walk into such in such secret area or whatnot. They were probably limited to any in game stats that are tracked and did a trigger go off to activate a cutscene. Those are the sorts of things that have hooks built already and 1 line of code can award the trophy (to put it in pseudocode; if cutscene activates then award trophy). Sure it's lazy but these are intended to be played like the originals. Really these should be called remastered editions, not remakes. Gameplay improvements and new features should be in remakes. Remaster = original version with polish; remake = built from scratch with the same ideas, setting, plot, characters and themes as the original. Changing the controls or adding features is for remakes, not remasters.

Actually, iirc, RE4 HD is under Games on Demand, and not XBLA, right? They can have as many achievements as they like, can't they?

#44 Posted by hoossy (934 posts) -

I have to disagree with this..

The controls of a game is just as part of it as anything else. If this was some competitive multiplayer game where split second timing will determine how you perform... then maybe. But a deep single player experience is tied directly into a distinct control scheme. To change it would be changing the game. HD reissues should not only allow us to replay a classic but also remind us how far gaming as come...

Now, if there was the option to change the controls... In the menu... that might not be awful

#45 Posted by mosespippy (4182 posts) -

@Mmmslash: There are probably still rules about how many achievements they can have even if it isn't a live arcade release. I think even full retail releases must have 50 achievements.

#46 Edited by paulithon (96 posts) -

ermmmmmmm..... I dont know if it was in the origanal re 4 or not or if someone has mentioned it already but if you go in to controller layout in the menu you can change it to a pretty modern configuration not to disimilar to re5

LT - aim and RT -shoot LT + A - Reload

LB and RT to use knife

@mosespippy @toms115

#47 Posted by Toms115 (2316 posts) -

@Hizang said:

@Rheinmetall: The controls were not broken at all, its how RES4 is supposed to be played. It's like saying in a few years time if they did say an Unreal 3 HD collection, people saying. "Man why did they not make it play like Call of Duty!"

the controls in re4 are awful lol

#48 Posted by Vonocourt (2130 posts) -

Love the blanket excuse that changing the controls would effect the atmosphere. Don't see how switching the aiming from the left stick to the right stick would have an adverse effect.

#49 Posted by Eojay (184 posts) -

Don't like it, don't buy it.

Problem solved.

#50 Posted by ch3burashka (5073 posts) -

@Rheinmetall said:

They should have contacted me,

Entitlement complex anyone? I think it's about time to realize HD remakes are not remakes; they're up-reses that are now popular because they're cheap to do (because nothing is changed) and the built-in audience is significant. You're being milked for money; don't expect being treated well in return.

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