Just got the Sony 3D monitor thing, have a few ?'s

#1 Posted by MethodMan008 (944 posts) -

Hello duders,

So I've had a 40" Westinghouse HDTV for a little over 3 years now, and it has TERRIBLE ghosting and some delamination problems.. Finally got rid of that TV and picked up one of them Sony monitors.. Played a few games in 3D and it's actually pretty neat.. SotC and Batman Arkham City are my two favorites so far.

Anyhow, I do have a few questions about my new toy..

What is the best distance to sit to get the best 3d effect? I dunno if this is something that varies for different people or if there is an accepted guideline for this..

Also, I've never really owned glasses, and definitely not 3d glasses.. What should I clean them with?

Well, thanks for the help duders!

#2 Posted by MethodMan008 (944 posts) -

Also, if anyone knows a remote that can turn on/off, alter volume, and switch 3d channels for this monitor, that would be great. :D

#3 Posted by Ehker (231 posts) -

I just use a really soft cloth to clean them, though that's if I forget to keep in the pouch.

Regarding the remote, from the Sony FAQ:

Question: Does the PlayStation 3D Display come with a remote control?

Answer: No. However, any Sony television remote can operate the display (even old remotes for standard-def Sony televisions), as can most universal remotes (simply input a code for a Sony TV). The new Media/ Blu-Ray Disc Remote Control can also operate the 3D Display.

#4 Posted by fugie7 (1132 posts) -

@MethodMan008: any universal remotes work on the TV

#5 Posted by bibamatt (1123 posts) -

I don't think viewing distance really affects 3D TV's. It's not like the 3DS where the images have to line up at the right place, your two eyes are just both seeing different things. I might be wrong, though!

#6 Posted by Shivoa (697 posts) -

The glasses are almost certainly some form of plastic but any optical cloth should be good (visit your local opticians, find one for pennies on ebay, maybe you already have a glasses cloth). I find I slowly collect cloths, but then I wear prescription glasses too.

As for distance, it does make a difference. If you thin about it, the screen is showing you two perspectives and how far back you are will affect how you perceive it. I'm not sure how much tweaking the PS3 enables of games, on the Pc we have controls labelled convergence and separation. The separation slider controls how far apart the two cameras are positioned that represent each eye and so increasing this value means the two images you get are more different, the scene feels deeper. 3D movies hate this, really hate it, and so often have almost no separation (which is why 3D movies without glasses often look blurry rather than clearly two images because the images are so close to each other - it's why 3D movies often underwhelm) but if you've never used3D before it can be a good starting point. The convergence slider defines the angle of the two cameras and this can be thought of as providing adjustment to where in the scene (all polygon games are a representation of a trapezoid block of virtual space flattened to the surface of the screen) is represented by a single image, the depth where things appear to be on the surface of the screen where everything looks to be drawn in non-stereoscopic mode. You can read quite a bit more here.

So if you want the game to look like you're looking into a miniature set of papercraft objects floating inside and in front of your TV then you want to be up quite close and get the separation and convergence to roughly match your eyes. From further away you can set it to be more representative of looking into a distant window (you may notice that our eyes are better at discerning static 3D for things closer to us - this means the papercraft view will usually be the more impressive and 'pop' and will have quite a high separation value). When set to a closer view then you may find yourself (this may take some time, don't try and push too far with expanding out the separation early, your eyes need to get used to the 3D effect over time - PC users often start out with 10% separation and get up to 60-70% if they become regular users who can enjoy the effect without headache) actually having to shift your focus in the scene to see things at different depths. This is an over-separation technique of actually dialing that slider well above what you would normally see for a set of things floating around the depth of your screen and exaggeration the effect, it is the most 3D-y thing you will see and no movies try to replicate this (experienced users only). There is nothing quite like playing a game where you shift you focus to something in the distance and the near 'blurs' as it splits into two images - this also allows you to use your focus to decide what you can see clearly, just like when you look out of a window with an internal frame you can either focus on the frame and the distant hills are split or look at the hills and the window frame become double-vision. Stereoscopic displays feed to genuine images and so can provide the same realistic depth effects as reality in this respect. That said...

The one thing that doesn't happen is your eyes never actually change their focal depth. Above where I talked about focus I was talking about your eyes changing the angle they looked out at, this changes where you focus if the scene contains enough different depths to make it impossible to focus on all elements at once (I am amazed how some people have never noticed this - hold your open hand a foot away from your face with something distant behind it like a bookcase or poster on a wall, now switch your focus from hand to wall and see how the thing you don't focus on is doubling up - this is an effect stereoscopic 3D monitors replicate that makes the virtual world feel like it has real depth) but there is a second thing happening in the real world and it doesn't happen with 3D screens. Your lens is actually changing shape to let you focus at different lengths and get a sharp image (the previous thing is seeing stuff in double, the lens effect is seeing stuff in soft-focus when you're doing it wrong) and so you're used to changing the lens shape when looking at stuff up close and far away. The fake Depth of Field effect some games use to make some stuff blurry like your gun when you look out into a valley is creating a very rough approximation of this. The problem with 3D screens is the actual pixels are always on the surface of the screen, you may think from the two images that you're seeing stuff up close to your face and deep past the surface of the screen but the pixels never move. To really enjoy stereoscopic 3D you have to train your brain to switch off the lens adjustment stuff while still using the angle changing stuff to focus. This is why people who have used 3D a lot are often very happy with it and have been using more and more separated images, they no longer have to subconsciously fight against an unnatural disconnect between focussing with the eyes' angles but not with the lens shape when trying to focus on things in the 3D scene. This is why you start out with a small separation and maybe a convergence that means nothing jumps out of the screen as you and is just a bit of depth into the screen. When you're getting used to it them slowly ramp it up and expand from there.

#7 Posted by NotAfro (18 posts) -

I have a question of my own about this thing. I picked this up ($130) to use as my monitor and I'm wondering if there are any makeshift drivers for it. My pc will only recognize it as some standard 60 hertz monitor when it obviously can do more than that.

#8 Edited by Sooty (8195 posts) -

@NotAfro said:

I have a question of my own about this thing. I picked this up ($130) to use as my monitor and I'm wondering if there are any makeshift drivers for it. My pc will only recognize it as some standard 60 hertz monitor when it obviously can do more than that.

Huh what would you need drivers for? There's no gain to be had, 3D will work with a PC by default. Boot up a 3D .mkv file in Media Player Classic HC then put the TV in 3D mode, it should just work. My Panasonic did. I don't know about the dual vision 3D gimmick, though kind of a non-issue as split screen gaming on PC is basically non-existent.

#9 Posted by MethodMan008 (944 posts) -

Awesome, thanks for all the tips guys!

Gonna go grab a few 3d blu-rays and play some more 3d games.

And as a side note, man, going from a 60hz monitor to a 240hz monitor is a world of freaking difference.

Also, fuck you Cinivia. :P

#10 Edited by NotAfro (18 posts) -

@Sooty: I don't really care about the 3D stuff. I'm more interested in my PC recognizing that it's a 240 hertz display instead of defaulting to 60.

#11 Posted by Shivoa (697 posts) -

@NotAfro: I have bad news, it isn't a 240Hz display in the sense that you want.

The screen may make many transitions per second (I think this uses 240Hz in the black blanking method, but maybe I'm wrong - it displays 120 images a second and bookends each image with a black transition frame. This reduces the ghosting of transitioning the image from one image to the next as you have the shutter glasses flipping in this black frame. Basically you get the same 120Hz in a meaningful sense as most 3D monitors, which is the tech I'm more used to dealing with, but with less ghosting and lower brightness for any given backlight strength) but the signal sent to it is over standard HDMI.

HDMI 3D at 1080p is not 120Hz. You do not get 60 frames per eye each second down that cable, the bandwidth requirements exceeds the specs. This is why the PlayStation monitor will look like a 60Hz 1080p monitor on a PC. Because the HDMI cable bandwidth means it can only be fed at that rate. There is no 120Hz mode at fullHD using that cable (there is a new high frequency HDMI spec that will allow it, only the latest GPUs support it and the bad news is that doesn't matter because that monitor definitely doesn't). This is why PC 3D solution use DVI cables. DualLink-DVI (a single DVI cable operating at twice the normal maximum bandwidth - most PC GPUs have at least one DL-DVI port) does have the bandwidth to offer 1080p at 120Hz to feed a 3D FullHD screen. The spec was originally created to deal with very high resolution LCDs (30" cinema display style stuff) but the happy side effect is the PC already had a well-established cable spec that works great for 3D at both high resolution and 60Hz per eye. This is what something like nVidia's 3D Vision uses, although it can also be used with HDMI (at a reduced resolution or frequency).

So ye, bad news if you purchased the thing to be a 120Hz+ PC display, the ports on the back only let you feed a 60Hz image to it if you want to push the signal at 1080p and address each pixel of the display individually. The screen changes the pixel colours 240 times a second (I think half of them being to black), the cable on the back is insufficient to provide that much data. I'd look at returning it as not performing to the requirements you have and look into buying a 3D monitor or other 120Hz display designed for use with PCs. The critical thing to look for is DL-DVI and 120Hz input frequency to avoid this issue. HDMI is a fine spec but it'll eb another year or two before any screens are coming out taht use the high frequency mode that allows 1080p/120Hz.

#12 Posted by NotAfro (18 posts) -

@Shivoa: Thanks for info, I didn't consider the bandwidth limitations of HDMI. I didn't get the tv specifically for the refresh rate, it was just a good tv at a cheap ass price so once I do start urging for a true high refresh rate monitor I'll get a proper pc monitor.

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