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Avatar image for chris2klee
Posted By Chris2KLee

Just listened to this. Gonna move to West Virginia for some dope wi-fi.

Avatar image for revel
Edited By revel

@Duffyside said:

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

@Degringolade said:

@Binman88 said:

Wow the 343 guys were boring as fuck. Maybe that stuff was interesting to Halo fans, but it was the most insincere drivel I've heard all E3.

It may have been boring and a little inside, but I really don't think you can justifiably accuse those guys of being insincere.

Sorry but I have to agree with him. Felt like I was listening to a marketing pitch for 30 minutes.

I actually just came to this comments thread to see "am I crazy? People have to have brought this up, right?" It was such self-congratulatory, self-involved blather, all because "we finally showed our Halo game, the sixth in the franchise," as if they had won an Oscar or something. It was also completely unprompted, too, which would be bizarre if it weren't so damn obnoxious.

"Hey guys, welcome to the Bombcast!"

"Yes, yes, thank you, it really is the greatest game on the planet."

"... What?"

"Halo 4. It's the best game ever, we agree."

"..."

"Oh, sure, we'd LOVE to share some insight on the process for the next thirty minutes!"

And then that weird transition.

"Anyway, I can tall all you want to do is talk about Halo for another three hours, but I want to be super-considerate and briefly talk about a bunch of other games."

"... Ok."

Exactly. Luckily the guy is not a real developer I found out. Its his job to be a tool. He's very inconsiderate about the years upon years of sheer hard work and man power that went into Halo even existing. He takes the reaction people had to a simple and short trailer (which i thought was great, sure) and turned it into something that felt like they had already shipped the game and got a 95+ metacritic score. I want to tell him: Sorry captain but your game is not finished yet! Its a great video. The game appears amazing. You got the reaction you wanted. Right now a little humility never hurt anybody!

Avatar image for mrhammeh
Posted By MrHammeh

All the bashing of WV makes me sad...... =(

Avatar image for supertom11
Posted By Supertom11

Am I the only one who likes sexy battle nun assassins? I was more offended by the ending of Halo 2.

Avatar image for duffyside
Posted By Duffyside

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

@Degringolade said:

@Binman88 said:

Wow the 343 guys were boring as fuck. Maybe that stuff was interesting to Halo fans, but it was the most insincere drivel I've heard all E3.

It may have been boring and a little inside, but I really don't think you can justifiably accuse those guys of being insincere.

Sorry but I have to agree with him. Felt like I was listening to a marketing pitch for 30 minutes.

I actually just came to this comments thread to see "am I crazy? People have to have brought this up, right?" It was such self-congratulatory, self-involved blather, all because "we finally showed our Halo game, the sixth in the franchise," as if they had won an Oscar or something. It was also completely unprompted, too, which would be bizarre if it weren't so damn obnoxious.

"Hey guys, welcome to the Bombcast!"

"Yes, yes, thank you, it really is the greatest game on the planet."

"... What?"

"Halo 4. It's the best game ever, we agree."

"..."

"Oh, sure, we'd LOVE to share some insight on the process for the next thirty minutes!"

And then that weird transition.

"Anyway, I can tall all you want to do is talk about Halo for another three hours, but I want to be super-considerate and briefly talk about a bunch of other games."

"... Ok."

Avatar image for tesla
Posted By Tesla

This podcast was great, with a healthy mix of inside baseball and beer fueled humor.

Avatar image for ichthy
Posted By ichthy

Oh god, lost my shit multiple times during this one.

Avatar image for xeirus
Posted By Xeirus

John Drake is so fucking hilarious, jesus christ, man crush

Avatar image for shakeitbaby
Posted By ShakeItBaby

So much alex yelling, dear god

Avatar image for saturdaynightspecials
Edited By SaturdayNightSpecials

DANNY O'DWYER WAS THERE!

For like a second. Get him as a fucking guest, do a whole show.

Avatar image for revel
Posted By revel

Gaint Bomb and some guy from 343 talking about the Halo series like it was made by robots with no emotions. Great....

It feels strange to me to have a newer and higher respect for Jaffe and lack thereof for a core developer.

Avatar image for agentoharah
Posted By AgentOHarah

@Vlad_Tiberius said:

How can someone care so much about some guy's writing that "inspired" the most overrated and childish CG-ridden crap I ever saw in my life? Even that NeverEnding Story movie from my early childhood had more sense, inner beauty and spunk than all these orks, elves, hooded wizards, dragons and all that Tolkien inspired shit put together.

By the way, is there any developer out there that can create a fresh and mature RPG, something that ISN'T about Norse or Japanese mythology for once? Just for once I'd like to see and try something that doesn't look and feel like a fairy tale that's been digested by all the fucking 12-year old geeks that can't seem to outgrow this Lord of the Ring/ Warcraft/anime madness.

For fuck sake, there are so many nations, cultures and myths, but, because of some reason, all I see is the same Norse, Celtic or Japanese crap being forced on us year after year. Even the Greek mythology, despite its richness and all the literature or theatre plays it inspired, is nowhere near those 3 in terms videogame media representation and I have yet to see a big budget RPG inspired by it.

If you feel so strongly about this, i invite you to get the ball rolling.

I don't say this to be snarky, or to use the average "if you don't like it, why don't you try and do it, huh?" defensive argument, but really, this sort of passion is where great stuff comes from. The people that make all of the entertainment media we enjoy do so because they ALSO wanted it when no one else was making it. If you want a job done, and you really do think it would be a fresh and exciting concept, get to work on it.

Avatar image for adambyrney
Posted By adambyrney

@WVUEers: Yes with Justin Mcelroy for sure

Avatar image for mikular
Posted By Mikular

@CptBedlam: You missed out, man. Time Belt.

Avatar image for wvueers
Posted By WVUEers

So it goes without saying. Sherlock Holmes Quick Look in September.

Avatar image for cptbedlam
Posted By CptBedlam

Thanks for the E3 podcasts, GB crew!

Though I have to admit I mostly skipped the segments with the 343 guys and McElroy (can't stand the way he talks/screams).

Avatar image for binman88
Posted By Binman88

@Degringolade said:

@Binman88 said:

Wow the 343 guys were boring as fuck. Maybe that stuff was interesting to Halo fans, but it was the most insincere drivel I've heard all E3.

It may have been boring and a little inside, but I really don't think you can justifiably accuse those guys of being insincere.

It felt like fake sincerity, which goes hand in hand with selling a product and framing it in the best light. Maybe they really do believe the spin and buzz words, but I wasn't buying it. It sounded no different to all the other marketing pitches we've heard from every developer ever who has tried to convince us that their upcoming product is the real, wheel-reinventing deal.

Avatar image for vegetable_side_dish
Posted By Vegetable_Side_Dish
@Degringolade said:

@Binman88 said:

Wow the 343 guys were boring as fuck. Maybe that stuff was interesting to Halo fans, but it was the most insincere drivel I've heard all E3.

It may have been boring and a little inside, but I really don't think you can justifiably accuse those guys of being insincere.

Sorry but I have to agree with him. Felt like I was listening to a marketing pitch for 30 minutes. 
Avatar image for internetdetective
Posted By InternetDetective

@Vlad_Tiberius: You have become that which you claim to hate, a boring long-winded blowhard sperg with nothing useful to contribute. Welcome to the club!

Avatar image for matterless
Posted By Matterless

@Binman88 said:

Wow the 343 guys were boring as fuck. Maybe that stuff was interesting to Halo fans, but it was the most insincere drivel I've heard all E3.

It may have been boring and a little inside, but I really don't think you can justifiably accuse those guys of being insincere.

Avatar image for binman88
Posted By Binman88

Wow the 343 guys were boring as fuck. Maybe that stuff was interesting to Halo fans, but it was the most insincere drivel I've heard all E3.

Avatar image for ithmoliar
Posted By Ithmoliar

Very happy to have Greg Miller on one of these.. BEYOND!!!

Avatar image for vlad_tiberius
Edited By Vlad_Tiberius

@EveretteScott: No, just annoyed.

All that pointless and boring banter about Tolkien's writing (like he deserves to be talked about, him being such a huge and important name in literature according to some frantic idiots!) reminded me about this issue I had with current RPGs that I couldn't understand, because , after all, we're supposed to talk about games here, right?

But, hey, I don' t give a shit anymore.

The GB community has turned into this strange fucking anti-social childish mess, disturbingly obsessing over such meaningless crap, like writing entire novels in the message boards about Ryan Davis clearing his voice or some other guy's laughter and such crap, that it feels pointless to even post something about a subject entirely different here.

Avatar image for everettescott
Posted By EveretteScott

@Vlad_Tiberius: You seem angry.

Avatar image for vlad_tiberius
Edited By Vlad_Tiberius

How can someone care so much about some guy's writing that "inspired" the most overrated and childish CG-ridden crap I ever saw in my life? Even that NeverEnding Story movie from my early childhood had more sense, inner beauty and spunk than all these orks, elves, hooded wizards, dragons and all that Tolkien inspired shit put together.

By the way, is there any developer out there that can create a fresh and mature RPG, something that ISN'T about Norse or Japanese mythology for once? Just for once I'd like to see and try something that doesn't look and feel like a fairy tale that's been digested by all the fucking 12-year old geeks that can't seem to outgrow this Lord of the Ring/ Warcraft/anime madness.

For fuck sake, there are so many nations, cultures and myths, but, because of some reason, all I see is the same Norse, Celtic or Japanese crap being forced on us year after year. Even the Greek mythology, despite its richness and all the literature or theatre plays it inspired, is nowhere near those 3 in terms videogame media representation and I have yet to see a big budget RPG inspired by it.

Avatar image for little_socrates
Posted By Little_Socrates

@Cuuniyevo said:

@Little_Socrates:

Considering the fact that you're the first person I've ever heard express that opinion in my entire life, his writing style is probably just not to your taste. It not being to your taste is no reason to deride something that hundreds of millions of people have enjoyed for over half a century. He certainly wrote in an older, more traditional style, but the words were carefully chosen and, to most readers, still have impact and a certain beauty. If you were just trolling, then never mind and carry on. =]

Nah, I was specifically taught by my high school's creative writing program to avoid Tolkien's prose. He writes like a historian because he was a historian for longer than he was a writer. The Hobbit has far better writing than the trilogy (and certainly the Silmarillion), but all it takes is one hard look at the fight in Balin's Tomb to realize that his management of prose is not exactly masterful. It's usually dry, clumsy, and it's sometimes even confusing. The dialogue in the trilogy is of varying quality as well; the only consistently solid writing is the poetry and songs, which there are certainly not enough of in any version of Middle-Earth.

I'm not deriding The Lord of the Rings or Tolkien's accomplishment. His stories are fantastic, and the world is amazing. Though I'm not sure I'll ever really be able to judge the quality of the series; most of the positive memories of my late father are tied up in The Lord of the Rings books and films. But that's not enough to make Tolkien a good writer, and most of my friends who are huge fans of the films, the genre, and The Hobbit cannot even finish The Two Towers because it's so poorly paced and so poorly written. I tried to reread Fellowship and I quickly found myself incapable. No disrespect to those who disagree with me, but as much as I love his work, it's not because he's a good writer.

Avatar image for zamir
Posted By Zamir
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Avatar image for cuuniyevo
Posted By Cuuniyevo

@Little_Socrates:

Considering the fact that you're the first person I've ever heard express that opinion in my entire life, his writing style is probably just not to your taste. It not being to your taste is no reason to deride something that hundreds of millions of people have enjoyed for over half a century. He certainly wrote in an older, more traditional style, but the words were carefully chosen and, to most readers, still have impact and a certain beauty. If you were just trolling, then never mind and carry on. =]

Avatar image for scrawnto
Posted By Scrawnto

@MEATBALL said:

Goddamn Justin McElroy is incredible.

I almost lost my shit during the Sherlock bit.

Avatar image for stokes
Posted By Stokes

Anybody else catch Ryan's Arrested Development reference?

Avatar image for jesterpc238
Posted By JesterPC238

I love it when we get sweet game journalist crossovers, GB and IGN are my favorite outlets, so it was great to hear Greg kick it on the GB couch.

Avatar image for avantegardener
Edited By avantegardener

There's Greg Millers in my Giant Bombs and Jeff Gerstmanns in my IGNs!

Avatar image for meatball
Posted By MEATBALL

Goddamn Justin McElroy is incredible.

Avatar image for pekoe212
Posted By pekoe212

Justin had me laughing so hard I got tears in my eyes (just like last year). Between Sherlock Holmes and the time belt, wow. I've played all of Frogwares' Sherlock Holmes games, by the way.

Avatar image for little_socrates
Posted By Little_Socrates

@MordeaniisChaos: I only disagree with you because Tolkien is a fucking terrible writer. Not that Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit are bad stories, they're excellent; the actual writing is preeeeetty bad, though.

Avatar image for squidracerx
Posted By squidracerX

@huser said:

@MordeaniisChaos: Well, they didn't say write WELL, which I think was the unstated point, but maybe not.

yes that was the point everyone is missing. A game writers job is made hard by everybody thinking they know as much as a writer and can give valuable input which isn't true. Its like raising a kid, everyone thinks they know how and how to do it best, so they make annoying comments and suggestions while you try to parent. If you're not a new parent yet you may not get that comparison :)

Avatar image for squidracerx
Posted By squidracerX

@Ihmishylje said:

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@GERALTITUDE said:

I found the everybody can write too few can program comment really funny. Everybody thinks they can write.

YES!!! Everybody thinks they can write. That's the joke. i am not sure by your guys responses that you "got the joke". That was not a genuine fact statement they made. Obviously no studio on earth would hire writers, or go out of their way and hire a Marvel Comics writer to write their game if they really believed "anybody can write". The point of the story, that made the story FUNNY, (it wasn't meant to slander writers or belittle good writers), was that when the tech guys at 343 babble tech babble about changes and new stuff, the average Joe Blow won't say anything because they have no idea what he is saying. The writers job on the other hand is HARDER because every Joe Blow thinks they can write and so will comment and bitch when the writer takes risks or changes something. The sarcastic comment actually was implying a writers job can be a pain in the ass. :)

Avatar image for murisan
Posted By murisan

drake was shitfaced

Avatar image for zamir
Posted By Zamir
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Avatar image for unclebenny
Posted By UncleBenny

@MordeaniisChaos: Actually, Frank sounded like a pretty interesting character, but I mostly made the comment upon my memory of David Ellis when he was in EGM who just love to stir shit up. Yeah, they are probably too tired to really get some shit stirred that night.

Avatar image for mordeaniischaos
Posted By MordeaniisChaos

@Ihmishylje: Yeah, life experience (not even writing experience, but beyond that as well) is incredibly important. Especially in creating good, complex, believable characters. The more people you interact with and study, the better, surprisingly enough, you get at writing your own characters.

@UncleBenny said:

man, those 343 guys seem totally nice, but also sound incredibly boring. I guess David Ellis lost all his fire once he lost his weight.

They had been showing off their game for days on end, if I had to guess they had a real rough time at the show. It's something Frankie has talked about in the past on the Bungie podcast. If your the guys on the team going to E3, you come out exhausted and wiped out. I don't imagine they had much energy for being exciting. And Frankie O'Conner is fantastic, usually, on podcasts. The greatest loss the Bungie Podcast ever suffered!

Avatar image for ihmishylje
Posted By Ihmishylje

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@GERALTITUDE said:

I found the everybody can write too few can program comment really funny. Everybody thinks they can write. Story and dialogue is the worst thing about games. Mostly the worst thing about movies and television too. Shit even books suck now.

As a writer, who spends a lot of time with writer peers, and who witnesses a lot of writing from non-writers, I agree completely. Writing isn't easy. It involves a constant tearing down, building up, reworking, re-writing, thinking, researching, etc. It takes a lot of work to write. There's a reason so few people come into writing books and succeed with the first book the try at. And when I say succeed, I mean even finishing a manuscript.

I fucking hate a lot of the writing in games. From shitty dialogue (something I like to focus on, to rather positive effect on those who read my stuff), to characters that do stupid things that no one with half a brain would ever do, to just cheesy, lame, uninteresting stories.

Anyone can spend a few weeks learning to program at a basic level. The only difference between that and writing is that everyone is generally required to learn to write at school. And even after years of that, most can't write for shit. Hell, I've been writing since I was about 8 years old and I'm still not amazing.

The problem with good writing is it isn't a technical thing. It requires some really particular things from the writer, and there are plenty of people out there that just couldn't get past a technical proficiency.

Programming is a bit different. It's not much easier to become, say, the new John Carmack as a programmer than the new Tolkien as a writer, but it's much easier to program a good game than to write a good book just because programming just bottoms out at a purely technical level a bit further up than writing, in my opinion. Ultimately, a great writer and a great programmer are both about as likely to come about as the other. But for the every-man, I'd say programming is easier to get past the basic technical level than writing.

I'm not saying programming is easy, because it's not. Especially at the more complex level. But it is inherently more technical and as a result, the barrier to entry to higher tiers is a bit further along the path.

Bring on the hate.

This is very true and these are great points. I'd like to add that while writing requires both a technical skill set as well as a natural gift (as art always does... you can force yourself to learn to become decent at it, but to become great at it, you have to have that song in you) and you need to have a desire to tell stories. Not just to write, but to use writing as a means of producing a coherent whole from your vision or from your ideas with your writing partners. And, something many beginning writers perhaps don't always realize or want to belive: it takes maturity. It takes life experience. It takes lots and lots of practice, and by that I don't mean getting a degree in creative writing or practicing for a couple of years. Sure, there are exceptions, there have been exceptional writers who have produced amazing novels and whatnot in their twenties, but usually it takes longer. When people start to get too old to be rock stars, they are probably still too young to be great authors.

Avatar image for huser
Posted By huser

Re: Sim City griefing...I was surprised over the course of these discussions the obvious solution to that wasn't brought up or asked about.

Someone (or even everyone) can TRY and make a shitty neighboring city to grief you, but I'd think the designers could easily circumvent it by making citizens a relatively limited regional resource (immigration from the larger world or birth rates being indirectly under player control). I mean if Old Detroit, Mega City One, and Gotham are the neighboring cities, why not move to Metropolis?

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Avatar image for huser
Posted By huser

@MordeaniisChaos: Well, they didn't say write WELL, which I think was the unstated point, but maybe not.

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Avatar image for mordeaniischaos
Posted By MordeaniisChaos

@GERALTITUDE said:

I found the everybody can write too few can program comment really funny. Everybody thinks they can write. Story and dialogue is the worst thing about games. Mostly the worst thing about movies and television too. Shit even books suck now.

As a writer, who spends a lot of time with writer peers, and who witnesses a lot of writing from non-writers, I agree completely. Writing isn't easy. It involves a constant tearing down, building up, reworking, re-writing, thinking, researching, etc. It takes a lot of work to write. There's a reason so few people come into writing books and succeed with the first book the try at. And when I say succeed, I mean even finishing a manuscript.

I fucking hate a lot of the writing in games. From shitty dialogue (something I like to focus on, to rather positive effect on those who read my stuff), to characters that do stupid things that no one with half a brain would ever do, to just cheesy, lame, uninteresting stories.

Anyone can spend a few weeks learning to program at a basic level. The only difference between that and writing is that everyone is generally required to learn to write at school. And even after years of that, most can't write for shit. Hell, I've been writing since I was about 8 years old and I'm still not amazing.

The problem with good writing is it isn't a technical thing. It requires some really particular things from the writer, and there are plenty of people out there that just couldn't get past a technical proficiency.

Programming is a bit different. It's not much easier to become, say, the new John Carmack as a programmer than the new Tolkien as a writer, but it's much easier to program a good game than to write a good book just because programming just bottoms out at a purely technical level a bit further up than writing, in my opinion. Ultimately, a great writer and a great programmer are both about as likely to come about as the other. But for the every-man, I'd say programming is easier to get past the basic technical level than writing.

I'm not saying programming is easy, because it's not. Especially at the more complex level. But it is inherently more technical and as a result, the barrier to entry to higher tiers is a bit further along the path.

Bring on the hate.

Avatar image for huser
Posted By huser

Steve Winwood is the best of mid 80's easy listening and I won't cotton to any disparagement on the man!

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Posted By GERALTITUDE

@Liquidus: Greg has a lot of energy but I think he's a pretty awesome guy actually.

Avatar image for geraltitude
Edited By GERALTITUDE

I found the everybody can write too few can program comment really funny. Everybody thinks they can write. Story and dialogue is the worst thing about games. Mostly the worst thing about movies and television too. Shit even books suck now.

Avatar image for abara
Posted By abara

I love the return of the Sherlock Holmes E3 stories

Avatar image for humanity
Posted By Humanity

You had me at John Drake (despite being mentioned almost dead last)

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