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ahoodedfigure

I guess it's sunk cost. No need to torture myself over what are effectively phantasms.

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Level Scaling and RPGs: Hope for Skyrim

While there was a wide, refreshing variation of opinion on what people wanted out of their Elder Scrolls/open world fantasy game experience, there was a common thread that I didn't mention in my prior post, but that I'll mention here.
 
The main issue that bothers just about everyone about Oblivion (and probably would have bothered me had I experienced it) was the universal level scaling, where all enemies increased in power alongside the hero, in a sense negating your advancement.  Look up "level scaling" in Google, and Oblivion will be the number one suggestion. The other suggestions are largely other products produced with the same engine, Fallout 3 and New Vegas.  It created such a problem that it rippled throughout other games that were only tangentially related.
 
The primary difficulty when creating encounters is that you want to make them challenging, but not taxing, not impossible, not irritating, but not too easy.  Even when you're designing low-level encounters for a non-scaling environment, you have to think about balance to make sure that players get the most out of the experience. So how does one even pull that off?
 
Well, it's usually solved either through a series of meta compromises that adjust to the player, or everything is left alone, suggesting a path that players can use to progress.  A third option, one I won't go into too much, is to make everything so random that it's possible to run into an impossible situation, where things are so hard that they're actually unbeatable, forcing a reset.  While the latter can be charming in games with little to no investment of time or energy, I think we have a higher standard for RPGs and thus I'll ignore this.
 

The Hand-Crafted Path


If you have character advancement at all, where a character gets stronger as they progress, they will need to continually be challenged for the advancement to feel worthwhile.  One way to give the player that sense of accomplishment is to build a world in which there are increasing levels of challenges that you run into. These challenges may be surrounded by clues that suggest you should get stronger before you go here, or that here's a good place to grow stronger.  Instead of forcing the game mechanics to adapt to you, the player adapts to the world.  Or, if they're sneaky, they try to subvert the natural order and go to places they don't have any business going, which could result in arbitrary defeat or richer rewards.
 
The upside:  The world feels a bit more real if it doesn't intelligently react to you; and one of my favorite consequences is that you can challenge yourself by hitting harder missions than you're supposed to take.  I used to enjoy racing through Phantasy Star II without grinding at all, just so I could reach the points in the game where biomonsters were a lot stronger, giving much more experience and much more meseta.  In a well-crafted game these encounters can have a lot of challenge to them, but won't necessarily be impossible, and will reward the daring player.  In a sense, such a system allows players to adjust their difficulty level on the fly, picking challenging areas by GOING to them, rather than pushing a slider back and forth or letting the game engine do the work for them (and hoping it adjusts properly).
 
The downside: If a player has already advanced by hitting their head against harder encounters, when they return to an area that doesn't meet their current level they will be bored. In World of Xeen there are two sides to the world, Cloudside and Darkside.  The latter has harder encounters, a wealth of experience to be had, and is, in my opinion, the more interesting place to explore.  But since you can go to the dark side of Xeen at the very beginning of the combined game, you can advance so far that when you return to Cloudside, a lot of the minor quests are nigh meaningless, giving you meager experience and treasure.  This in itself isn't so bad, since that's the consequence for tackling harder stuff first, but it winds up meaning the content itself may be skipped, something many game developers feel invalidates all the time and effort they put into creating those parts of the world in the first place. There's also an issue with going into areas you're not ready for: if it's not obvious that you shouldn't be there, you may get wiped out so easily that the game could feel more frustrating than worthwhile. In poorly-planned games, grinding will sometimes be required before a player can survive in the next area, but this may be due in large part to the types of advancement schemes the game uses. 
 

Ye Olde Level Scaling


Using the Elder Scrolls as an example, there are three different versions of level scaling among the more recent games (I'm still not familiar with Arena's methods, but I'm considering playing it so I may know more in time). 
 
In Daggerfall, humanoid encounters scaled to meet the player, so that encounters when you're high level are usually tough and yield excellent loot, while fighting humans when you're weak and small won't necessarily clean your clock.  Creature encounters, though, remain constant, so that a harpy will always generate the same class of loot, and be about the same level of deadliness even when they become little more than nuisances. 

In Morrowind things got a lot more complicated: according to online sources, there are areas and events that have pre-set encounter levels, similar to the handcrafted system I detailed above. The monsters themselves in general belong to encounter classes, so that if you run into a daedra early on you're more likely to get a weak daedra, while daedra encounters later in your character's development will be a lot more deadly, yielding greater rewards.
 
In Oblivion, the notorious level scaling entered in full force, with every encounter somewhat matching up with player ability. This left a lot of people feeling as though their leveling was for nought, since whatever they did to get stronger, the game world got stronger to match, meaning that the lowliest random encounter was still as problematic as it was at low levels. 
 
Bethesda's first Fallout game, using the same basic engine as Oblivion, altered this pattern significantly, showing they were well aware of the criticisms against Oblivion: In Fallout 3 you almost saw a return to Morrowind's combination of hand-crafted and level scaled, only according to this report, it was the regions that scaled, not so much the creatures themselves. If you stumbled into a certain area early on, you would get early-level encounters. If you happened to bypass that place and come back late in your career, the encounters generated there might be much stronger.  The only way the player might know this was happening would be to compare notes with other players or play through again, since the encounter level for that area would stay the same for the rest of the game.
 
The upside: While complete level scaling is largely hated, some degree of level scaling allows the player to feel challenged when going into new areas. This may not be the most realistic scenario if advancement is significant each time their character increases in power, but it also maintains player interest in continuing to explore, as well as maintaining a sense of danger that might be lacking if they KNEW that such-and-such an area was made for low-level characters.

The downside: When done to an extreme, the player feels as though he or she is going nowhere. That little rat that bit you in the starting dungeon can now pierce your glass armor and somehow shrugs off a blow from a sword (actual results may vary). Your character may look snazzy in their new outfit, but beyond an added list of abilities the player feels a bit impotent, and since one of the common character arcs of open world RPGs is the sense that the player makes more of an impact on the world over time, deadening this feeling can leave this advancement feeling pointless.  This also serves in the opposite manner as well, since if the player DOESN'T advance, supposedly strong and imposing monsters will be EASY to take out, defeating any drama that might emerge from a climactic encounter.
    
---
 
I get the feeling that a combination, or the hand-crafted style, fits my gaming outlook more.  My favorite pastime in games like these is to challenge the borders, to try to sneak into places I have no business being in (just like in GTA when I try to get past arbitrary barriers early on). And when I say hand-crafted I only mean that certain types of areas have certain types of encounters, it doesn't preclude it from being used in a random generation scheme like the one I profiled in my previous post. 
 
As far as what Skyrim will have, I doubt Bethesda will make the same mistakes with it that they did with Oblivion. They seemed to have already learned from the results of universal level scaling, and will probably act accordingly.

Are there any systems which any of you have used into that took character advancement in rewarding or disastrous ways?
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Bollard

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Edited By Bollard

Nice job on writing a great blog about this issue!

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Grumbel

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Edited By Grumbel
@ahoodedfigure said:

" @Grumbel:  Do these open missions in Gothic sometimes take you near places you shouldn't be, or do they in a sense give you strong guidelines on where to go that help keep the difficulty manageable? "

The world of Gothic can be for most part navigated by common sense. Go deep into the woods and you will get eaten by monsters, stay on the main road and you will be fine. Monsters are generally visible from far away, so you can see where you don't wanna go. And even when you are chased by some creatures you might be able to run to the next tavern or city and have the guards take care of them. Also creatures stay permanently dead, so once you cleaned an area, it is save.
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Karkarov

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Edited By Karkarov

Personally I don't get it.  I played stock Oblivion with no mods and when I was level 22 or so using a daedric claymore if I found a rat it could do next to no damage to me and I could kill it in one hit.  The only people who had any kind of problem with this game and it's level scaling were the ones with crap characters that had stats all over the place and joke builds and used crappy gear.  Also Oblivion did NOT scale 100% past level 25 or so it basically stopped scaling on all but a handful of encounters, by the end of Shivering Isles I was near level 40 and could curb stomp just about anything.

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ahoodedfigure

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Edited By ahoodedfigure
@Karkarov:  What sort of build did you have?
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Jiggah

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Edited By Jiggah

The scaling was a huge fake out since you could do a hidden attack with a projectile and probably one hit any guy in the game including bosses. 
 
Leveled scaling makes it seem like you aren't gaining as much as you should have, or the game world is stagnant.  If you start out a weakling at the beginning, you should grow more powerful than enemies by the end.  It also spells out lack of diversity in enemies.  I'd take richer, progressively hard enemies over a handful of enemies that only present a challenge because they scaled to you.

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Doctorchimp

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Edited By Doctorchimp
@Karkarov: You left the part out where before you hit the 20's you grinded like a moron with your skills to get your character up to snuff. During that entire grind process it felt like you did absolutely nothing since enemies were on your level the entire time. Then you avoided everything you wanted to do to get equipment at the right level. That was my experience with Oblivion. Mundane, arbitrary and flat.
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Example1013

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Edited By Example1013

  @ahoodedfigure: I probably misspoke when I said "level gates". I really meant "level requirements", i.e. you needed to be a certain level to be able to use some certain weapon or armor. Beyond that, I don't think the gameplay was much different from  Dark Alliance. Beyond that, the only real difference I can discern is the fact that, rather than having specific characters, Champions just had classes, and you made your own character, right down to customizable appearance.
 

  
Borda lanz had certain areas hard-blocked, so that you couldn't advance until you were at some specific point. I don't think they ever specifically blocked off by level, but they blocked off areas so that you'd end up at a high enough level to be able to make it through by the time the zone was unlocked.
 
Still, Borda lanz didn't hard-cap any quests or anything. All the side quests had recommended levels, and the game warned you that quests above your level would be extremely difficult, but you could still get into places above your head quite easily.
 
Borda lanz sort of combined both scaling and handcrafted, but in a completely computer-controlled way (let's call it pseudo-scaling). How it worked was, the mobs within different zones had ranges, and as long as you were within that range, they'd scale to you. As an example I'll take a hypothetical level 15-20 zone. This should make it clear. So you enter the 15-20 zone at level 13. All the mobs are then basically level 15 (obviously bosses are higher levels). When you reach level 15, the mobs in the zone are still level 15. But then you reach level 17. Now the mobs are all level 17, scaled to you. You reach level 20, and the mobs are all level 20, once again scaled to you. But past that, say, level 25, the mobs are still level 20. They don't scale past level 20 for that zone.
 
All the zones are built like that.
 
Chests are also done the same way. So a chest in that level 15-20 zone will give you a level 15-20 gun, no matter what level you are. So if you're level 35 and you go back into a level 20 zone (because chests respawn), you'll still only get a level 20 gun, which will be useless to you except to sell.
 
I can't remember whether the shops are scaled to you, or follow the same pseudo-scaling that the zones and chests follow, but I think they pseudo-scale.
 
I'm not going to get into a discussion on guns. The gun generation system is fairly complex. If you want info, head to the Borda lanz wiki and the Gearbox forums. There's a ton of stuff there about it all, including a whole forum section devoted to guns.

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Karkarov

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Edited By Karkarov
@ahoodedfigure said:
" @Karkarov:  What sort of build did you have? "
Uh well... I wanted to make a melee centric character with stealth support skills.  This is the type of character I like to play in Elder Scrolls games.  I had blades, the repair skill (can't recall official name off the top of my head maybe it was "repair"), heavy armor, block, sneak, security, athleticism (I like how it increases movement speed and jump distance), and... I don't really recall the rest.  Possibly the one for manipulating the conversation wheel/bartering.  I sneaked everywhere possible, used basically no magic, when I wasn't in combat areas or just wanted to get around quickly I would just run to level athleticism, and lastly I would often times ignore fast travel and just decide to point in a direction and go see what there was to see.
 
@Doctorchimp
 
Sorry man, I didn't grind anything unless you consider just exploring the world to be grinding nor did I ever have "crappy gear" for my level.  I was more than happy to go buy something or even steal if I found a nice item in someones house etc.  By the time I hit low 20's I remember I went into some cellar style dungeon to clear out some bandits at the request of some guy running a farm.  Dudes were using daedric gear which sort of left me going "uh wut?" but hey cut them down, took it for myself, a trip to the local cyrodil enchanter and some nice soul stones later I had a set of bad ass equipment.  I mean really once you enchant your helm to have permanent night vision, your armor to reflect like 50% damage, so on so forth it isn't all that hard.
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ArbitraryWater

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Edited By ArbitraryWater
@Astras: Are we talking about Fallout or Wizardry? In Fallout, I guess it would be possible. But it'd also be really boring. In Wizardry, the enemies respawn after a while, though not necessarily at the party's level.
 
@ahoodedfigure: Oh yeah, I also totally forgot about Puzzle Quest 1. Man. The level scaling (and the sort of cheating AI) killed my enthusiasm for that game. When it takes 5 minutes to battle a rat with more HP than you do, there are problems. Problems that seem to have been fixed by Puzzle Quest 2.

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TEHMAXXORZ

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Edited By TEHMAXXORZ

I found that the level scaling in Oblivion was far too slow, and really, I felt like a total God when I went out to fight like 50,000 demon things without getting hurt, but it really takes the fun out. Fallout 3's scaling was too extreme I found, I ended up being a level 20 before I could even get to the GNR plaza. 

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SonicFire

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Edited By SonicFire

Nicely stated. I for one do not like level scaling at all. Frankly, as I get stronger, old parts of the game should reflect that as I dominate. Elder scrolls was frustrating, but something like Too Human was even worse- granted that game had much worse problems, but let me explain: In too human the enemies scaled exactly with the player, meaning that at no point does the player ever feel like they're getting a real leg-up on the enemies.  So there are clearly bad ways to do this. 
 
One thing I'm surprised you didn't mention (at least not in this post) is how bad Oblivion's leveling system was (I say this though it is one of my fav. games of all time): the whole major stats/ minor attributes method - wherein you had to level your dominant abilities a cumulative 10 times - was a train wreck. To effectively level your character and not lock out your level upgrades you had to practically use a speadsheet, and carefully pay attention to how many times you blocked, ran, jumped, used a mace, etc. Even worse, depending on the specific skills you upgraded, the amount of points you gained at level up could vary. This made the level scaling thing you discuss far more problematic.
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VWGTI

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Edited By VWGTI

This has been a great read. I agree with a lot of what has been said here.

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ahoodedfigure

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@SonicFire: You shouldn't be too surprised I didn't go into detail on the Oblivion system, since I've said a bunch of times I've never actually played the thing. I'm relying on other people's experience to evaluate it :) This wasn't a criticism of the system itself, because I have no firsthand experience, it was a discussion of where Elder Scrolls has gone and may go, plus systems for RPGs in general.
 
I'm working on a few ideas for my next post, but eventually I'll get into how the specific advancement systems for past Elder Scrolls games worked, including Arena, but I'll need to rely on you all and secondary sources in order to understand the specifics of Oblivion.
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l4wd0g

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Edited By l4wd0g

I hated being level 16 and going back to have the same damn skeleton from before be just as difficult to kill.Yep, it's kicking my ass and here come his four other skeleton friends... it almost negates the face that I had leveled up.

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ahoodedfigure

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@l4wd0g:  Do you think the amount of monsters was the same? So those four skeletons could have just as easily come earlier on in your character's development, or was the increase in amount maybe due to your dude being a higher level?
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l4wd0g

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@ahoodedfigure: 

The number of monsters was the same, but it felt (operative word) like nothing had changed. It was still a tough fight like it was when I was level 2.  The major difference was the armor I was wearing and my glass sword. The thing of it is, is that I want to play and RPG where my character levels up and becomes more powerful and can smite early level monsters.  I didn't want my level to seemingly only effect my armor and weapon.

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ahoodedfigure

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@l4wd0g:  Another question since I have your ear: did your equipment give you any edge compared to the original encounter, or did you feel like it it just let you barely keep up? Reason I ask is that equipment, in my book, can be considered a form of leveling too, with better equipment meaning a more powerful character.
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Karkarov

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@ahoodedfigure said:

" @l4wd0g:  Another question since I have your ear: did your equipment give you any edge compared to the original encounter, or did you feel like it it just let you barely keep up? Reason I ask is that equipment, in my book, can be considered a form of leveling too, with better equipment meaning a more powerful character. "

Thats actually a key point especially in Oblivion because the game scales to your level, not your gear.  Like I said in an earlier post, if you knew how the game worked and what to do you could literally assemble a set of weapons/armors that would make you a nigh unstoppable killing machine.  Also for some reason there is this huge population of people out there who think like Sonicfire and wanted to treat leveling like some kind of high end philosophical meta game.  It isn't, the system works, it is simple.  Pick skill you plan to use, as you use them they get better, then you can level the stats that they depend on based on use.  Whats that you didn't max every stat by the end of the game?  Who cares?  If all the skills you use rely on Strength and Agility then does it really matter than you didn't max Intelligence?  No, it doesn't.  Trust me when I say that if you play the game to any level of completion (I only got to like 60% when I stopped) you will be very high leveled and you will have multiple max stats regardless of how or when you leveled.
 
To say again, stock Oblivion was not a hard game.  The only people who had problems with it had horrible skill choices, were just bad at the game, or thought that they should be just as effecting using a steel claymore at level 20 as they were at level 5.  You don't need to treat the game like it is a college level math course but you do need to at least learn how to play and invest a minimal effort in picking skills that work together.
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ahoodedfigure

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@Karkarov:  I get you, although I think games like these sort of invite players to make the character they want to play.  In games with a more set system --I have stuff like all the Might and Magic games I've played over the years-- there's more of a system mastery element, where you want to have a good blend of party members, to get the best loot, to be smart about attribute advancement choices, that sort of thing.
 
With a game like this, I feel like customization is a lot more important. You sort of get the impression just from the way they talk about the game that you can pretty much make what you want and in some way be successful. You might have to suffer a bit more in combat if you're a thief or wizard type, but if you have to master the system by picking a select group of builds, it is at cross-purposes with the customization that the series is famous for.  That doesn't mean that there aren't ways around the problems like you've talked about, but a lot of people get into games like this to create a specific character and have that character survive, rather than build a character they know will survive (learning how to build one through trial and error, luck, or finding out online) and work backward from that.
 
Since I'm the kind of person who likes some measure of adapting to the game world, I'm OK with games forcing players to make smart choices about how you level your character and especially what equipment you use, but it almost feels like this game was supposed to achieve something different and didn't quite manage.  That doesn't mean your successful runs aren't invalidated, it means a lot of the promise of customization in a game like this isn't necessarily realized.
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l4wd0g

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Edited By l4wd0g
@Karkarov: 
 
 @ahoodedfigure:  
 
 

See gentlemen, I've thought about that.  The armor and weapons do help, but I'm not playing Monster Hunter (I love Monster Hunter).  If I'm leveling to just get new armor, I should chose agility and hit the "Y" button (I played on the 360) a lot to power level.  

What I want, when I'm playing a game that allows my character that level up, is simply allowing me to go back to those skeletons and just punch them to kill them.  Let the strength I’ve been adding points to be worth something.  I don't want to need to use my advanced equipment to fight the lowly skeletons.

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Karkarov

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@l4wd0g: 
What you just said is totally illegitimate.  In Moster Hunter you don't level at all, your gear IS your be all end all progression.  In Oblivion it is just just one facet of it.  Also you can go punch out a skeleton at high level, assuming you have leveled your hand to hand.  Remember it is a two tier system.  The stats give you bonuses to various actions but if your actual skill level with the action you are attempting is crap all the stats in the world will not make you succeed at it.  Which is just like in the real world which is what it is trying to mimic.  For example you can give a trained acrobat a set of lockpicks and put him in in front of a complex multi tiered tumbler lock and he will never open it because he is a trained acrobat, not a trained locksmith/thief.  He has all the dexterity and agility needed for the task and then some but he literally lacks the knowledge and practice.   So your non hand to hand trained tough guy may have the force of a bulldozer behind his fist but his punches are wild, lack discipline, and tend to glance and not land cleanly.  Do you see what I am getting at?  Meanwhile Oblivion gear comes from leveled lists all you need to get gear appropriate to your level is go find some leveled human mobs and kill them.  I won't even go into what it takes to get good gear in a Monster Hunter game.
 
@ahoodedfigure:
I am not sure you understand what I mean.  Oblivion lets you make whatever kind of character you want and run with it but it is obvious that some things are just bad ideas.  I have heard of people complaining they could not beat the game when they choose no armor skills, no offensive magic skills, and no weapon skills.  They literally started with no effective offense of any kind.  It doesn't take a genius to realize you will need a very unorthodox approach to make that work and extra effort will be involved but they expected to just walk up to any enemy and still win with ease.  You don't need to do research either, any of the in game pre built classes will work just fine for beating the game.  Meanwhile I do not "build a character to win" I build the character I play in elder scrolls games because I have been using a custom character based around these skills since Daggerfall it is just what I like to play.  Oblivion in all honesty is an easy game, it is not ever hard, unless again the player simply has no clue what they are doing or you purposefully installed mods to make it more challenging.  As for looking things up... every skill in the game has a little help pop up that describes what it is for, what stat it works with, and sometimes even gives formulas for how good you are at it.  The games intro is even a short tutorial that tells you how to play.  It is not the games fault if you don't use to tools it gives you.  Meanwhile I have heard of people beating the entire game without ever killing a single person, literally.  You CAN play any way you want and succeed as long as you are willing to adopt a style that works for the skills you choose. 
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ahoodedfigure

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@Karkarov:  I'm pretty sure few of the people posting here took no offensive abilities of any kind. I won't speak for them, but I doubt it. Yet I think you're lumping the criticisms into a single group: that they think it's too hard. I never really got much of that from what people said, myself. Some people did say that about the difficulty, but the aggregate opinion that I see is that it's not satisfying, that the difficulty prevents a feeling of progression, of actually getting better, and it ruins the experience for them, or at least sullies it.  Some have even said they didn't bother to level and still did fine, and others said arena fights were way too easy because of the same problems they had with the system. It's not that a scamp kicks their ass, it's more that a scamp seems to progress alongside them in a fashion that negates a feeling of progression. If you don't like that there are people who have posted on this board who were unsatisfied with the system in Oblivion, I don't see arguing against their opinion bearing much fruit. 
 
Regarding the language you use to describe anyone who didn't have your experience, I'm not sure how you know what strategies they used without asking them for details. I get that you're probably not posting to be helpful, though. If you were, you would likely be writing more diplomatically, asking people about their experiences, or providing more concrete examples of your own experiences for contrast.
 
As far as people exploiting or doing crazy skill workarounds to beat a combat-heavy game without combat, I take my hat off to them;  I know people who tried to blaze through Fallout 1 on charisma alone, but I wouldn't have done that myself unless I wanted to test how durable the system was. I don't expect most people to do very well in that regard, except obsessives.
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Karkarov

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Edited By Karkarov
@ahoodedfigure said:
Scamps don't scale with levels though, the game either spawns more of them or just stops spawning Scamps and starts making you fight Daedroth, or Dremora, or etc etc etc.  Like someone said "continue leveling only to have to fight continually more powerful demons at every gate? No thanks."  What could possibly be a bigger sign of progression than the fact that you have to fight more powerful enemies in your encounters?  That is literally how every RPG ever made works, the last boss of Dragon Age Origins is not a Hurlock.  I would say more but in the end it is not worth it, by your own admission you have never even played the game so to explain in detail how I played or why the leveling complaints in this thread are a case of personal taste and not bad mechanics would be a waste of time because you wouldn't know what I was talking about anyway.   That said Oblivion won tons of awards when it was released, is still considered one of the best games Bethesda ever made, and to be frank I think Skyrim will be a massive success even if they copy Oblivion's scaling dot for dot, which Bethesda wouldn't do anyway regardless.
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ahoodedfigure

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Edited By ahoodedfigure
@Karkarov:  What you say seems to contradict a basic assumption others have made, so rather than talk about yet another random monster and have you tell me that its behavior is different, I'll extrapolate.  You say that, like with Morrowind, the encounters themselves scale, but the specific creatures don't?  While that makes specific statements about rats and scamps invalid, the scaling itself seems to be intact, and is demonstrably different than how many other games perform: difficulty progression and character progression are two different things, though they're ultimately related.  There seems to be a change between Morrowind and Oblivion in that regard, but even though Bethesda has talked about it themselves, they don't really go into specifics.
 
I think pretty much everyone who's participated in these posts wants the formula to improve, but I'm willing to bet there are several different opinions on what improvement would even entail. 
 
Thanks for participating.
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DragonBloodthirsty

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I have extremely mixed feelings about level scaling. I despised Diablo II in particular for making all the skills increase in cost as well as power when they were leveled.

I do like being able to challenge myself with stronger foes, so I kinda like a fairly hand-crafted world with breadcrumbs that lead me around, but don't force me to go anywhere in particular. One of my major frustrations with Freelancer was how it confined you terribly at the start of the game, so that when you replay it you have to play all through the game again.

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Edited By ahoodedfigure
@DragonBloodthirsty: I wrote this more than a year ago, and since then I've actually played what Skyrim had to offer. There is some degree of scaling, but because the PLAYER CHARACTER scales with level/ability, you will find a bandit who was once a challenge to be absolutely nothing in terms of threat. People like to level their blocking or armor skills by standing next to these poor virtual souls as they wail on their character to little effect. It makes it a bit surreal. In a sense, I guess, level scaling is a tactic to address the baked-in problem inherent in RPGs: if you have characters that advance in ability, how do you maintain player challenge and interest?
  
It's been so long since I played Diablo II. I've tried to replay it a few times and I always wind up getting exhausted by it. Compulsion doesn't equal enjoyment for me.

A lot of people recommend Gothic 2 to me as a breadcrumbs+nonlinear challenge level like the kind you're talking about.

You bring up another good point about how the lack of variety in starting locations can kill your desire to replay a game, despite it having a decent amount of reply value beyond. Some games manage to get past this by creating different starting zones (Bioware seems to like to do this for certain properties now, and it does have an impact, although things still feel very programmed and dull at the start). 
 
I'm experimenting with Star Wars: The Old Republic right now and it allows for some level of experimentation and challenging yourself, but it does feel fairly rigid in terms of level structure, so I can't really say that you can pick on stuff that's equal or higher level than you without putting yourself at extreme risk. Still, it does seem to reward a bit of fiddling around and going outside pre-programmed routes, which I've been taking full advantage of.