Anwar's forum posts

#5 Posted by Anwar (887 posts) -

@zalrus9: Those people talked about how the Internet would run out, because there is a limited amount of airwaves, they clumped landline Internet together with Internet over the air, they are rather dumb and their videos are badly made.

@pillclinton said:

It isn't. Popular games cater to the demographics of consumer demand. When more gay, black women start buying games, enough to considerably change the demographic of the audience, then games will start to reflect that. And I won't care about that either.

This is a catch-22. The audience for "core" games is mostly straight white men therefore games target the straight white male demographic therefore people who are not straight white men are less inclined to play video games therefore the audience for games is mostly straight white dudes so let's make games we think they'd like.

So when you want to talk mess about video games and their protagonists every customer is a cis white male, but when you want to change games for whatever reason 48% of gamers are female or what? Cherrypicking at its finest. People like to clamor to that figure and I think they need to think it through. Saying that 48% of gamers are female means that they are fine with it or if they weren't they would probably say it, right? Or do they need you to speak for them or something?

#8 Edited by Anwar (887 posts) -

@davidh219:

The relationship between women and video games is something I've been thinking about only recently, and I only get more frustrated the more I think about it. Perhaps the most frustrating part is the blanket dismissal of the issue by so many of my fellow gamers who don't want politics and social issues in their games or their games journalism (even though they want games to be seen as art). The blanket hate Patrick got when he started to care about such issues and injected them into his writing is evidence of that.

Some dude posted on one of his articles 'Am I on Kotaku or what?', that person was clairvoyant.

[...]

That is some really inane nonsense and you probably know it.

In any other industry there are things made specifically for women. Movies, TV shows, etc.

So are video games, dunno why you ignore games made for women.

> Sure, sexism still exists in these products (particularly in the fact that far too many "for women" entertainment is created by men,

why does that matter?

[...]

why is it that the nightmare fuel that is Marcus Fenix can be the protagonist of an incredibly successful franchise, but there is no female equivalent? Why can't I find a single game of an even close to comparable budget that has a female protagonist who is badass but not "sexy badass"? I'm talking grotesque muscles, facial scars, armpit hair, and a mullet. Make her as unattractive to me as Marcus is to every woman on the planet.

Making unsubstantiated claims about all women. sounds like the patriarchy for me.

It would only add to her badass cred, and that shit would be cool. I know plenty of women who would appreciate a character like that.

And I know a lot of women who have no problem with how protagonists are now in games(including the female ones)

Not only are female protagonists unjustifiably rare,

just because you choose to ignore them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

but the few that are around are across the board very conventionally attractive.

so are male characters, again, dunno why you are focusing on that aspect

It's as if the gaming community is saying, "Hey, I'd really prefer not to play as a chick, but if you make me play as a chick she better be hot, you hear me?"

It perpetuates the caustic idea that women who aren't hot are pointless. Valueless. They might as well not exist at all.

Man, you are reading WAY too much into this and projecting some non-existent opinions or made up reasons why characters look how they look. And you telling me that male protags don't look like super models or is that not important?

Now, let me make something clear. I don't have a problem with sexy women in games.

Contradicting what you said earlier. Specifically this "It's as if the gaming community is saying, "Hey, I'd really prefer not to play as a chick, but if you make me play as a chick she better be hot, you hear me?" "

I also like how the community is responsible for what developers do and that developers have to compromise their ideas to fit some arbitrary guidelines.

[..]

This, unfortunately, is often not the case. Too often sexy women in games are nothing but trophies and sex objects. And even that wouldn't be a problem if it weren't the de facto standard. After all, a game that is very much trying to be a male power fantasy should be able to have characters like that if it wants. The problem is that the vast majority of video games, especially mainstream titles, are male power fantasies. There's no equality, and no variety.

How is it that half of the gaming populace isn't getting their fair share of games that are made with them in mind?

Okay let's assume that half the gaming populace is female(playing AAA titles which you are so concerned about and this is not true btw) that would mean that at least half the gaming populace(all women mind you) DO NOT care that there aren't as many female protagonists. Sales charts seem to indicate that they buy those games and are apparently fine with them.

here are some studies which show that the gaming populace is not 50% female

http://campustechnology.com/Articles/2005/05/Let-the-Games-Begin.aspx

http://heri.ucla.edu/pr-display.php?prQry=20

here is a study which says they are

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/female-adults-oust-teenage-boys-largest-gaming-demographic/

I like how the link to the study is 404 now.

now the problem with the latter is that they count everybody who has ever touched a game in their lives and if you do that, you practically count every person(in the 1st world) and surprise, surprise there are around 50% of women and 50% of men who play games, eat food, breath air etc. which are the basis of this study.

You don't make a study and ask somebody 'have you ever walked at a rather fast pace?' and if the person says yes, you count them as athlete.

Look, I don't care about the moniker 'true gamer' or whatever, BUT you can't lump people who have played video games a handful of times in their entire lives with people who buy console games and care about the story, characters etc. I want also to say that I am not against female, homosexual or non-white protagonists, it's just that I don't see anything wrong with the protags that we have now, which include non-white male characters as well, which you choose to ignore to paint this horrible female-excluding picture. Females do not like any media with non-female protagonists after all(I do some broad generalizations as well, if you don't mind)

And I don't just want this for the women I know who have to deal with it either. I want it for myself as well.

As a man, even I'm tired of playing as gruff male characters in male power fantasies, so I can't even imagine how fed up with it female gamers are.

So why would female gamers be more upset than you are? What makes them such delicate creatures which OBVIOUSLY are more annoyed by this than you?

I want to live in a world where I can pop in a game that has an average looking female protagonist that is very much designed for women gamers,

you are painting with a really broad brush and are also making women look very simple-minded

'No female character? No buy for me.'

and then turn around and pop in a game with big gruff dudes with guns or swords who are fucking hot chicks with voluptuous digital melons,

and I want both games to have a comparable budget.

How would that work? Force publishers to fund games which could be a bigger financial risk than FPS#234?

Make a kickstarter and try your luck, but don't jeopardize the livelihood of developers just that they can fulfill your female protagonists quota.

Unfortunately I can't, because the former doesn't really exist and the latter makes up 90% of this industry.

you have very specific requirements for your 'female-friendly' games and I still think that there are plenty which fit your very arbitrary and odd criteria.

I guess basically what I'm saying is this: I understand the knee-jerk reaction to this feminist movement that has infected games journalism. Many of the most vocal proponents are just as terrible as the "misogynists" they hope to combat, and the fact that many journalists agree with the most base sentiment that they propose means people think they agree with it all and that everybody is out to get the games they like and replace them with politically corrected bullshit, but that's not the case. It's not about the games that exist, but the games that don't exist.

It sure is when you talk about Hatred. People hating Gone Home and calling it a non-game is to video game 'journalists' a no-go, but the same people demonize and talk mess about Hatred like it has no right to exist. You have to take the good(in their opinion Gone Home) and the bad(Hatred).

Similarly this issue isn't about men who hate women, because that's obviously not the majority of men. Just saying, "Well, I don't hate women, so I'm not part of the problem," doesn't help the discussion, because the problem is much subtler than that.

Saying I don't like white buff protagonists ALSO does not really help anybody, but hey, nobody is stopping you.

It's about thinking, however subconsciously, that a woman's opinions and viewpoint isn't as valuable as a man's.

You yourself did just that earlier 'so I can't even imagine how fed up with it female gamers are.'= women are for some reason more upset about something than a guy because ..., why exactly?

They complain about games never being made for them,

Don't see much of that. Anecdotal evidence which you have is not meaning much

and they are ignored, and that's not okay. Take Assassin's Creed for example. It's a game that has massive cross-gender appeal. I know plenty of women who love the series, and it's never tried to be this gruff male power fantasy with sexy women in your face all the time. Why is it then that after a million entries we've not had a single female protagonist? Why is it that so many male gamers would cry, "political correctness" and say how they don't want a female protagonist, even though their female gamer brethren are just expected to deal with the constant rotation of dudes? Even if Ubisoft only did it "for the sake of having a female protagonist" as people would immediately decry, would that really be the worst thing ever? Methinks not. At the very least, we could definitely use the variety.

I love this example which plenty of people like you use. Assassin's Creed. How oblivious to games do you have to be to ignore the AC game with a BLACK FEMALE protagonist? You could've picked another game to make your point, but nope, better shoot yourself in the foot and show everybody that you just jump to conclusions about AC's audience, Ubisoft and plenty of other things without facts backing you up.

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SECOND POST

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[...]

•I'm fine with sexy women in games, and so many people choose to focus on that as a talking point, completely ignoring what I said. The problem isn't that women are sexy, it's that they are rarely anything more than that,

Dunno why you just play Leisure Suit Larry games, but female characters have been much more than that for a long ass time.

and unlike men they are never allowed to be unattractive by the most broad conventional measure.

Borderlands 2 had an overweight female class iirc, plenty of other examples which I can't be assed to name, since you conveniently ignore all of them

Most men in video games are unrealistically attractive too, but there's a bajillion more examples where that's not the case to balance things out,

Really now? how many not attractive male protags are there? and if you just name any character in a game, plenty of female non-supermodels out there as well

and their looks are rarely their defining attribute as a character.

Again not true for female characters

I think true equality would be an equal number of games for each gender that cater to their specific (unrealistic) fantasies, and then a good helping of games that attempt a more realistic and fair representation of both genders as well. Can someone explain to me how this opinions is in any way incendiary?

It's not and that is not the problem, don't try to shift the argument somewhere where nobody else took it.

Your expectations are just out of whack with reality, tell my WHY anybody should do what you propose? Risking financial failure, closure of the studio, loss of jobs? Why would they do that?

•To the women who apparently find Marcus Fenix attractive, my apologies. My own anecdotal evidence suggested that that was probably not a thing. Regardless, I think we can agree that a woman that isn't "conventionally" attractive like Marcus isn't (but still damn foxy to some people) is just not a thing that's really allowed to happen right now at any budget level above indie, and I think that's kinda messed up.

You ignoring characters which are not conventionally attractive doesn't make them not be there

Not saying it should be the norm or anything, but it should at least be an outlier that exists. I'm not saying make a woman "ugly" for the sake of it, l'm saying there has to be somebody that has thought, "Man, it would be cool to have a tall, scarred woman with an eyepatch and mullet as the protagonist in a game. That's what a woman in real life would probably look like if they were doing the same black ops stuff as Snake, and it would be badass," but that game doesn't get to be made, because men wouldn't find her attractive and that's something that has way too much emphasis placed on it.

You're creating this amazingly hateful environment of some boogeymen in your head and act like there has to be somebody thinking like you, there probably is, but that's not the point. Worst case scenario, you are actually the only person who thinks that such a charater should exist, you know what you should do? Make a game with that character.

We all like to see attractive people, and that's fine. That's why most actors, and even video game characters are hot, but men are allowed not to be sometimes and still have their stories told and women aren't,

Are there so many ugly protagonists? You thinking Fenix is ugly is probably meaning that you find a lot of protagonists ugly which are not seen as unattractive by a bunch of other people.

[...]

•Just because a lot of women are alright with the male power fantasy type games, doesn't mean they all are or that they wouldn't appreciate a different perspective. Never did I say those kinda games are bad. They're great.

They just shouldn't be the vast majority of what gets made.

Why? this is just a non-statement. I'm not trying to make fun of you. Explain to me, please, why they 'should not be the majority? Supply and demand is all I have to say about this.

I don't understand how you can disagree with that when women make up half of gamers, but...okay. Opinions and such, I guess.

Post some facts and maybe not the entertainment software association study, which counts everybody who ever touched a video game in their life as a gamer.

God forbid I think it's a tad unfair that men and women don't have an equal amount of games made with them in mind and with a similar amount of time, effort, and money thrown into them. Not even perfectly equal, just at least vaguely comparable. How is this event an argument? I'm not saying it's gonna happen soon, or that I'm naive enough to think developers are going to take the risks I propose until they're sure a large enough audience will be receptive. I'm just venting frustrations with the current climate. Some of you seem to really have a problem with that, which is confusing to me. What exactly are you fighting for, or against? As I said, I don't think the games you already like should be taken away, or politically corrected up, or that anybody is wrong for liking them. I'm just saying that there are other games that should exist alongside them that don't, because the female perspective simply isn't valued at the same level.

Are women so narrow minded that whenever there isn't a female protagonist they feel excluded? You make them appear very odd and egocentrical. Why can't games with male protagonists NOT stpeak to women or have them in mind?

Hopefully this will change with time as more women make games. Trends suggest it will, but you can't be mad at people for being frustrated with the long wait.

Here's the problem that I guess I failed to really hit before, which is that yes obviously games like AC sell more than Gone Home. Is that because fewer women play games? Some of you seem to think so, but statistics say otherwise. Who am I to believe? An individual, or that 48% statistic? I think I'll stick with the statistic for now. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it definitely seems to me that men are far less accepting of a female perspective than a woman is of a male perspective. Women will buy AC because they love games, and no female protagonist or not it's still fun for them and it's better than not playing anything, or only playing indie titles because of some dumb sociopolitical stuff. It's something worth discussing, but not boycotting over, at least for most. Men, on the other hand, generally don't do the same thing to the same degree for games that come from a female perspective.

What is that? A lot of uncharted games where directed by a woman, are those games not from a female perspective, because the main character is not a woman or what?

There's no support, and often backlash. Because of that, of course Ubisoft is going to keep it a male.

Nice of you to do the thing that you accuse others in this thread of doing, which is not reading the posts.

Again, Ubisoft made a game with a female protagonist.

Changing it would probably hit sales, and keeping it the same won't, even if the most vocal feminists cry foul about it.That's the smart financial move.

It still sucks though.

Why does it suck? I reiterate. Let's take the bogus numbers of the entertainment software association as fact(you know the bully who stole made fun of you in elementary school, stole your handheld, played a game and broke it afterwards? a gamer. that racist guy who hates asian people, played a solitaire game once in his life on his windows 98 machine, that's a gamer. That drunk alcoholic abusive parent who beat the shit out of his kids for wasting time with video games, tried them once and threw them all away. Yup all of those people are gamers according to your 'facts'. Don't forget those people when you make a game next time.).

If 48% of all gamers are female, 48% of all video games that are sold are bought by females, correct?

Apparently they are totally fine with it and it doesn't suck for them. I think there would be a bigger outcry otherwise. Or are women such weak and unprotected beings that need constant help from other people to speak for them? I don't think so.

I'm sorry for repeating myself a couple of times, especially the ESA study, but, man, that study is some hot garbage and that is not because it shows how many women are gamers, not at all, if that were true, I would have no problem with it, but they held a weird study and now people clamor to it like there's no tomorrow.

I can't remember if that was this study or another one, but they found out that the majority of PC gamers are the elderly and female. You know how they came to this conclusion? Every person who plays solitaire counted as a PC gamer. Guess how many of those are out there?

A shitton.

A person who

'Never bought a PC game' + 'Has a PC which has Solitaire'

=Kablamo you have a PC gamer

whose opinion on Dota 2(Civ 5, WOW, Gone Home, Farming Simulator 2015, TF2 [insert any PC game here]) you should not ignore, right?

#9 Posted by Anwar (887 posts) -

So MM 3DS is happening for the same reason as the original one, right?

all the objects and stuff are done and the engine as well, most of the character models are the same as OOT(3DS as well), so I never believed the naysayers(including Nintendo employees).

#10 Edited by Anwar (887 posts) -

@brodehouse: I don't want to come off as an Souls apologist, but this complaint about 'no pause' in Souls games always rubbed me the wrong way.

There is a pause, it is a terribly implemented an obtuse way to 'pause' the game, but it is still there.

go into the in-game menu and hit 'quit game' at any point in the game and it will autosave you right where you were (right in the middle of battle, shortly before a trap kills you etc.). So you can pick up that phone, answer the door or whatever. You cannot just pausw the game with one butteb press but a few button presses more does not strike me as bad. Only exception is a boss battle it will kick you out of the boss room and load your game in front of the boss fog gate.