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astrotriforce

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Why doesn't God just destroy Satan? (Answer included)

So I was talking to one of my friends and we had an interesting discussion on Satan and God. I'll go ahead and share the whole thing. 
 
"Hey, I read somewhere that Lucifer being an angel was made out of fire, and all of the angels loved God and adored him, and when God made man, he made him out of clay, and commanded that the angels bow down to them and love them unconditionally as well, but Lucifer loved God so much that he couldn't bow down to anyone else, and he felt that man was inferior to him being made out of clay, so God cast him out of Heaven, away from his love, I'm sure there's more to it but what do you think?"

 
Me: "That's more of an embellishment on what the Biblical text actually states. The Bible does say that the Father made us out of "the earth" (which could be translated as "clay" I suppose) and it does say that Lucifer was essentially jealous OF GOD. It could therefore be interpreted by extension that he was also jealous of man because of man's privelaged position above the angels and all of God's creatures. Also, Lucifer didn't disobey God out of love. No matter how someone wants to twist it. And Lucifer wasn't made of fire, but the Bible states that he was the most beautiful of the angels, was a musical being and was covered in jewels that shone throughout the Heavens."
 
"What about him fighting God? He would have to know he wouldn't win."
 
Me: "Well, that's kind of like saying that Adolf Hitlar would have to know that he couldn't conquer the entire world. But he sure thought he could and was damn well confident enough that he nearly succeeded. Likewise, it says that a third of the angels were deceived by and followed Lucifer. Thus they too were also cast out of Heaven along with Lucifer for their treachery. Therefore Satan was able to convince a third of God's angels that HE was right and God was wrong. Could be he defeat God? No. But he damn well tried. And he knew that angels aren't God, and therefore could be deceived. And they were"
 
"Surely Satan must listen to people talk, he would have to ponder the thought that he isn't gonna win."

 
Me:  "At this point it isn't so much about Satan winning, it's about how much he can corrupt before his time is up. God couldn't be defeated but those that love God can be lead astray from God due to Satan's deception and lies which he uses to sow "seeds of doubt and discord". 
 
"Well no I mean like he can't be stupid enough not to listen in to me or you talk verbally, or see what we're typing."
  
Me: "Satan is a (fallen)angel. Therefore SATAN IS NOT omnipresent or omniscient like God is. That means that Satan cannot be in more than one place at any one time and Satan's knowledge IS limited. He can't read minds. Satan is immortal but God ultimately has power over him. So Satan is immortal but he's no god. Satan cannot create another being and give it life. In fact Satan is the opposite. While God commands us to build up others and not tear them down (love your neighbor as you love yourself), Satan is the polar opposite. He comes to 'steal, kill and destroy" and roams over the Earth "seeking whom he may devour." Satan is not ultimately concerned about WHAT he pollutes your mind with, it's what knowledge he can keep out of your mind (that of God) by keeping you distracted or deceived into believing otherwise the truth and knowledge of God that is his goal. And he does a damn good job of it. "Enter ye the narrow gate: for wide is the path, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction." 
 
"Why wouldn't God just like, jail him so to speak to cause him from doing all this?"
 
Me: "Because Satan's "life" and the consequences of his choices are still being "played out" as our's are. It is because of the sin that Satan wrought that true love is created. Because true love is a choice and comes from free will. Forced love is not love at all, therefore we have to choose between God's path and the "path that leads to destruction". You can't have light without darkness and you can't have good without evil. It's as simple as that."
 
Now for the best song about Satan from my favorite Christian band. 
Let's all sing together now, "My hands have taught me terrible things/HIS HANDS HAVE SET ME FREE!"
 
 
 

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TheGreatGuero

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You have no idea how disappointed I am that this isn't a poll...

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beej

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@TheGreatGuero: Less disappointment more pictures of cats!
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deactivated-5bb67033e3422

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Becuase

 

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audiosnag

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@beej: 
I think this thread's going somewhere great
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davidh219

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Pretty interesting. Christian mythology can be almost as interesting as norse and greek sometimes. The first few sandman graphic novels by Neil Gaiman have some pretty interesting stuff involving lucifer, hell, and why they exist. You should check them out. 

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TheDudeOfGaming

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I have a different answer to that theological discussion my good sir.
God needs Satan to punish all the Hitlers of this world...thank you...that is all...

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geirr

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Why doesn't the tooth fairy wrestle Elvis in a UFO above Loch Ness to once and for all determine who gets into Valhalla with 72 virgins and endless wine?

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FesteringNeon

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@MrKlorox said:
" @astrotriforce said:
" I wasn't going to come back to comment on this post cause I knew what it has probably turned into, but holy crap I can't believe it reached four pages already. Last I checked it was at one just a few hours ago.... "
So you just wanted to shit in the pool then leave? Brilliant. "

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SeriouslyNow

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@pepsimaxofborg said:
" Why doesn't the tooth fairy wrestle Elvis in a UFO above Loch Ness to once and for all determine who gets into Valhalla with 72 virgins and endless wine? "
Simple, because NEO hasn't gone blind yet.  Or has he?
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swamplord666

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<insert crazy christian explanation here> answers may include "He will eventually","God works in mysterious ways"

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KaosAngel

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 Can't bring up God without Haruhi!
 Can't bring up God without Haruhi!
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Meowshi

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@Pinworm45 said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" Can people stop saying the Bible is the number one selling book of all time?  It's a lie.  The Bible, like the Qu'ran, like pamphlets for dog grooming is given away free of charge.  It's not a high selling book at all.  It's also not just one book, but hundreds or thousands, all variant and not all of them even agreeing on some very basic information. "
Even if it was, who cares? Snookie of Jersey Shore fame released a book that's more about nothing than Seinfeld ever was (how to guides on partying), and it's a Number 1 best seller. "
It's a statement confirming its influence.   
 
The same thing applies to Snookie really.   
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BigLemon

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@beej said:
" @BigLemon said:

" @astrotriforce: I read your whole post, and I want to thank you for your well-thought out arguments and your respectful rhetoric.   I've often used this argument when people ask me, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" It is not enough to have good in the world. There must be evil to balance goodness. Nature works in opposing forces. You cannot have lightness without darkness, or positives without negatives. Without evil, there would be no reference point for good. You could not conceptualize goodness without a benchmark for what is "not goodness."  "

Wait wait wait wait. If god can establish universal constants without any reference to the world  (like the claim that our morality comes from god) then why is it that good can't be universally defined as well? At the very least a positive definition is possible, you're trying to say that good is only intelligible in light of evil, but that seems like a purely negative definition of good. More importantly, when choosing between saving people from needless suffering and death and preserving a definition of a word that would be unnecessary anyways god chose the second option? Really? You'd tell a bunch of tsunami victims that it's ok that they died since they provided coherency for a definition? Wow God is kind of a dick. Even more importantly, if God is absolved from combating evil by this logic then am I absolved from my burden as well?  "
It works both ways, though. That's what you're ignoring. Not only is good only intelligible in light of evil, but evil is only intelligible in light of good. It's not a purely negative or positive definition of either entity.  
 
And God is not absolved from combating evil. Again, you're only focusing on half of the picture. You cannot dismiss the fact that there is goodness in the world, such as you cannot dismiss the badness. They are not so much separate entities to consider as they are an intertwined action. Maybe this is trite (or flat-out wrong), but think of it like Newton's Third Law of Motion.
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Kibblez

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To me this topic is like saying "Why doesn't Santa Claus take over the Tooth Fairy's business model?"

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WickedFather

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Remember when King of all Cosmos had that fight with a rabbit?  That didn't end well, did it.

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deactivated-6418ef3727cdd

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Because neither of them exists, lol.

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lazyturtle

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...because they're both fictional characters and it makes a better story if they're locked into eternal conflict?

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craigbo180

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Yo god totally destroyed satan, didn't you play scribblenaughts! Talking about religion on video game forums is never a bad idea.

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Afroman269

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Why was this revived? And I wouldn't bother answering because they don't exist.

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J12088

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Jezus frobo crist is a hero and if you read the bibble youd kno he round house kicked satan and he fell into mount doom never to be seen again. then he climed onto a boat that noah the elfman made for him and sailed off to kalimdor to spread the word of deathwing and kill the nasty orcs.

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Jace

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Ugh. Herp derp, mythology applies to real life.

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Jeust

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@astrotriforce:  
 
Good cannot live without evil. If there wasn't any evil, besides the inexistence of free choice, there wouldn't be the concept "good", as everything would be good. Evil is a necessary weight to balance the universal scale.  
 
I personally don't believe in Satan as a different entity from God. I believe evil is just God's other face. Not talking about how evil is generally a question of perspective. If you look distant enough what was considered bad can be a good act. 
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beej

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@BigLemon: You're ignoring the fact that God is supposedly capable of defining absolute definitions without having a basis in reality (I.E. Morality) why can't he do so with good? More importantly, would you actually tell a sufferer of say fetal alcohol syndrome that it's ok that they are screwed from birth because their suffering allows you to have a definition for a term? Really? 
@Jeust: That's right! Someone drowning slowly and alone rather than god just killing them outright is clearly a good act! Same with the Holocaust, including the complete and total dehumanization of people in the camp, to quote Levi  "the musselmaner, the drowned, form the backbone of the camp, an anonymous mass, continually renewed and always identical, of non-men who march to labor in silence, the divine spark dead within them, already too empty to suffer. One hesitates to call them living; one hesitates to call their death death, in the face of which they have no fear, they are too tired to understand.… If I could enclose all the evil of our time in one image, I would choose this image, which is familiar to me: an emaciated man with head dropped and shoulders curved, on which face and in whose eyes not a trace of thought is to be seen." So assuming you could say meet the children of these people, or even meet them prior to their complete and total loss of humanity, what praytell, would you say to them regarding the good coming out of their condition?
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Jeust

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@beej:  
 
God works in mysterious ways.  
 
If you take into account the existence of God, and assuming there is life after death, those horrifying experiences, are also learning experiences. There are several qualities that are learnt and enhanced when we're at our lowest point.  
 
And one thing we generally aren't capable of doing with ourselves and with God, is accepting what we cannot comprehend. Sometimes we do things that to us are abhorrent, and we hide and run, and try to forget. We hardly try to accept. The same thing with the conception of God. We cannot accept that some actions, considered "evil" are His doing. But what if they are?  
 
The same world that gave us life, also permeates us with death at the end. For me, there isn't good without evil. It's a paradox.
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BigLemon

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Edited By BigLemon
@beej: I think it's sort of shallow of you to presume that someone's suffering satisfies my philosophical apologetics. That's pretty crass, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that wasn't your intention. 
 
It's not about coherency of a definition. It's just how our world works. I understand that I have to undergo great suffering because I have faith that in the end it will be equal to my happiness. I have shouldered both moments of horrible tragedy and moments of supreme elation. We all have. Thus is the nature of my existence.
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beej

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@Jeust: So Evil exists to provide coherency to good, yet when attempting to apply good as a value judgement we find that we can't actually have any coherency after all since the definition of good is rendered unintelligible to us. If that's the case then what's the point?  You seem to be contradicting the original point here. 
Also good without evil being a paradox seems to fly in the fact that God is omnipotent omniscient and omni-benevolent.  
More importantly if God get's to use some jackass metric of good (I'm gonna go ahead and say that ridiculous suffering is bad) then why the hell should I care for the guy even if he did exist? He sounds like a complete ass.  
@BigLemon: I'm not trying to be shallow here, I'm merely pointing out the ramifications of the declaration that we need evil in order to have good as a definition (which I guess is a good) if the conclusion that represents is concerning (I agree it is) then, to me at least, it seems like good reason to re-introduce the problem of evil into our vernacular. I understand that this is how the world works, it's just that I have a hard time combining that with the idea that there's a god who loves us and has the power to do anything. Perhaps my terms for highlighting that perceived contradiction were harsh, I'll grant you that you are, in all likelihood, a good person,  and clearly don't wish any sort of harm on people. But the underlying logic remains a problem for me. 
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Jeust

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@beej:  
 
Do you think that the perspective of a human and a ant is the same? 
 
If one hundred ants are killed do you think a normal human being will feel anything for them? 
 
If a ant could/can think, for it this event would be ridiculous suffering. For a human could have been the resolution of a plague in the kitchen. 
 
I don't think Humankind is the selected species by God. So we have a partial view of the universe. Many things are veiled from us, from either lack of capacity or lack of vision.
 
More important than consistency, is free will and balance. You can't have free will without evil. If you could only do good, you could never do bad. The same with balance with the joy of good, and, dare I say, creation, where would be the ravenous evil, and destruction?  You need the creation (good) and destruction (bad) to have harmony in a fleeting world.
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MikkaQ

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Oh god what caused this epic thread necromancy? 
 
I mean, y'all added like two pages of nonsense to the thread! 
 
Here's my contribution of nonsense. 

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beej

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@Jeust: 1) Yo there's a reason I don't eat meat! 
2) Outside of that you're making a semi specious argument, I'm talking specifically about people, (the quality of being a person in a Lockean sense) we grant some notion of people being granted some sort of value. 
 
So you're agreeing with Spinoza then, or at least partially? That still doesn't answer towards needless suffering, why must a person drown slowly when god could instantly kill them and thus end the suffering?  
Also you talk about the example of ants dying as achieving a benefit for humanity, I'm not sure I like the comparison you're drawing there between say exterminating ants and my point about the holocaust. More importantly you were able to point to SOME goal being achieved with the death of the ants, what goal is achieved by the extermination of millions of people?  
 
I don't understand how you argue that we can't know much about the universe, but then go on to argue that we can talk about the universe being good. If we can't know any of this how the fuck can we say that there's any good in the world. If you can reasonably cast doubt upon any evil situation by saying that it might be good, then can't I do the same for every good situation?  
Also if God is omnipotent then why exactly do we need balance? You're just repeating a platitude as if it has some sort of relevance. This seems especially shocking given that your previous argument seems to indicate that we can't actually have free will. Allow me to explain, if there is a constant balancing between all things like you claim, then what exactly ensures that balance? Why should we accept it to be true? It seems to me that you can only make this claim on two grounds 1) is that it is a force of the universe that things balance out, at which point some principle (that would basically be god) is ensuring that for every good action a evil one occurs as well, which to me sounds like someones free will is being violated. 2) is that God is ensuring this balance, which has the same problem as part 1 since the "balancing property" that you seem to believe in appears to be vested with enough omni traits that we might very well deem it a god. 
Additionally some of the needless suffering that I've talked about has nothing to do with free will? Since God could end the suffering of any one of its creations without violating free will why the hell hasn't it if all that stands in it's way is free will?
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Jeust

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Scooper

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It wouldn't be a very good story if God could just wipe out Satan. It must of been hard thinking up decent plot lines. I feel sorry for the monks. 
 
I gotta be honest this discussion has as much merit to me as a discussion titled "Why doesn't the G-Man just destroy the combine?". It's because the fiction says so.

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spudtastic

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Edited By spudtastic

There is a certain way God has chosen for things to occur with Satan. Rev.20:1-3,and v.10. This will be at least 1,007 years from right now, as the reign of antichrist hasn't begun yet.

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MegaGoat

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b/c not real
/thread