believer258's forum posts

#1 Edited by believer258 (12849 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@bananasfoster:

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree with you except for the fact that there are about 10 metroid games. One can only do isolation for SO long. At a certain point a) it becomes absurd that Samus has no interactions with other people and b) it becomes hard to interest anyone in playing again.

It's not absurd, even the early games make it clear that Samus has social interactions with others. Those interactions just don't take place in the game. Also, I don't think that it's hard to keep interest, not necessarily. If Nintendo can pull it off well, that's great! But the series has had two games now where a fair bit of the story involves people other than Samus and in both cases, the story is pretty weak. It's just not why I love those games. But if Nintendo wants to place us in the center of the Metroid universe, then that's what they'll do. I'll still play it, but the idea of a central, traditionally-told story isn't what will get me excited.

Personally, I feel like Metroidvania games are inherently broken. There is a tiny window where they are functional games, and a ton of fun, but then your character becomes over-powered and you fly through all the levels in a manner completely removed from how the game is actually played. THat "feels powerful", but it's not great gameplay to me. having multiple worlds could help mitigate that, to some extent.

So why on Earth are you even playing these games? Part of the challenge is in using your new abilities to find secrets. Hey, remember that little morph ball hole you saw that was a few blocks off the ground? Notice how bombs now make your little ball hop a little? Cool! Go back there and use those bombs and the morph ball to jump in there! That's an easy example, of course, but the challenge and fun isn't necessarily found in difficult enemies and you don't necessarily "feel powerful" because you can now kill those early-game bugs in one shot instead of four. Have you ever finished Super Metroid? Think about how you feel in the last ten percent of that game. No part of the environment that is destructible can stop you. You can jump infinitely into the air and your mid-air somersault itself can kill anything! You can run so fast that you burst through everything! Hell, you can even swim in (most) lava like it's an indoor swimming pool on a cool day! Some pools of lava - might be acid - can hurt you, but otherwise every bit of that world is open to you, you'll never turn away from another item again because lack the ability to get it. That's where the satisfaction comes from.

Placing the game on a single world enhances the whole discovery aspect by having areas link together in unexpected ways. When you have three or four different worlds, that obviously can't happen, unless they have you travel between worlds with portals or something.

I think I should be more clear because apparently I'm not communicating properly. I've been playing Metroid since the original and, yes, I've beaten every single one. Being that I am the age that I am, I don't believe that "story" necessarily means movie cut scenes and voice records.

When I said that the game should have 3 different worlds, that is why I said that the game should have a hub world. Old school as I am, I think games function best when there is an overworld that allows the player to choose what they want to do. It think every game should have at least 3 fronts that the player can be working on at any time. Take Doom, for instance, where a player can play a new level for successful completion, and old level to 100% secrets or an old level to 100% par time. Or Super Mario World where a player can play a new level on the main route, play an old level to find an alternate route, or play Star Road. The best adventure games like Day of The Tentacle and King's Quest 6 were also good at allowing the player to progress on multiple fronts if they so chose.

I think giving Samus a Space Bar to act as a hub world would give the player the opportunity to not get "stuck" which would make the game MORE accessible and allow the developers more room to make the game more difficult, which is something that is important to a player like myself. Can't beat Kraid? Fine. Go do something else for a while and come back when you are in the mood to try again, or have more energy tanks.

You mean like giving the player quests or something? If they're going to put Samus in a more social environment, that could work pretty well. I'd still like to avoid objective markers, or maybe just not give every quest an objective marker (if someone wants you to, say, go kill a monster and they know where it hides, that would be all right). That's skirting pretty close to an RPG. Dust: An Elysian Tail actually did that pretty well from what I remember.

Also, I don't think I mentioned this before, but if they are going to put Samus in a more social environment, I'd rather have her voiced when people speak directly to her. I'm tired of silent protagonists.

Sorry about misunderstanding what you meant by "different worlds".

#2 Edited by believer258 (12849 posts) -

@bananasfoster:

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree with you except for the fact that there are about 10 metroid games. One can only do isolation for SO long. At a certain point a) it becomes absurd that Samus has no interactions with other people and b) it becomes hard to interest anyone in playing again.

It's not absurd, even the early games make it clear that Samus has social interactions with others. Those interactions just don't take place in the game. Also, I don't think that it's hard to keep interest, not necessarily. If Nintendo can pull it off well, that's great! But the series has had two games now where a fair bit of the story involves people other than Samus and in both cases, the story is pretty weak. It's just not why I love those games. But if Nintendo wants to place us in the center of the Metroid universe, then that's what they'll do. I'll still play it, but the idea of a central, traditionally-told story isn't what will get me excited.

Personally, I feel like Metroidvania games are inherently broken. There is a tiny window where they are functional games, and a ton of fun, but then your character becomes over-powered and you fly through all the levels in a manner completely removed from how the game is actually played. THat "feels powerful", but it's not great gameplay to me. having multiple worlds could help mitigate that, to some extent.

So why on Earth are you even playing these games? Part of the challenge is in using your new abilities to find secrets. Hey, remember that little morph ball hole you saw that was a few blocks off the ground? Notice how bombs now make your little ball hop a little? Cool! Go back there and use those bombs and the morph ball to jump in there! That's an easy example, of course, but the challenge and fun isn't necessarily found in difficult enemies and you don't necessarily "feel powerful" because you can now kill those early-game bugs in one shot instead of four. Have you ever finished Super Metroid? Think about how you feel in the last ten percent of that game. No part of the environment that is destructible can stop you. You can jump infinitely into the air and your mid-air somersault itself can kill anything! You can run so fast that you burst through everything! Hell, you can even swim in (most) lava like it's an indoor swimming pool on a cool day! Some pools of lava - might be acid - can hurt you, but otherwise every bit of that world is open to you, you'll never turn away from another item again because lack the ability to get it. That's where the satisfaction comes from.

Placing the game on a single world enhances the whole discovery aspect by having areas link together in unexpected ways. When you have three or four different worlds, that obviously can't happen, unless they have you travel between worlds with portals or something.

#3 Posted by believer258 (12849 posts) -

@crimsonavenger: If you're not trolling then...

I don't see why people like 2D Metroid so much

I like 2D Metroid because it's all about exploring an atmospheric, moody, and dangerous world in search of things that will allow you to open up even more areas of the game, providing a world that seamlessly transitions between areas. These games start with very basic mechanics and reward you for being able to use them well by giving you another mechanic to play with. Yes, this can be done in 3D (and was done quite well three times in a row), but the 2D games manage to build a world that leaves a lot to thought and imagination.

Metroid Prime's story is really rather fascinating. Samus Aran was raised by Chozo on Zebes, so she's not entirely an alien on Tallon IV - but you, the player, are. The Chozo on Tallon IV basically experienced something that we put in our post-apocalyptic stories, only for them, they didn't survive. They fought and fought and fought and still died out, and all that's left are their logs and their ruined civilization. The story is never blatantly and bluntly delivered to you by talking to characters, you have to seek it out, and much of it is still left to imagination and your own conclusions. It's the same thing with the Space Pirates and their business on Tallon IV. The comparison to Halo isn't even a valid one - if you want to compare Metroid Prime's storytelling to anything, compare it to Dark Souls.

Everything you've said about Metroid leads me to conclude that you just haven't given the series much thought. The things you have written about the series make it sound like you played maybe an hour of Super Metroid and a little more of Metroid Prime and just concluded that these games are not for you, therefore, they must be bad. Instead, why not consider other factors that may not appeal to you specifically, but may appeal to others? As an example, I don't like Red Dead Redemption all that much, but I understand that people love how wonderfully that game recreates the atmosphere of old Spaghetti Westerns. It looks, sounds, and plays more to that particular aesthetic better than anything else ever released.

Nintendo needs to do the legwork and finally create a universe for Samus to inhabit. Metroid is about isolation, but it's impossible to keep making games that exist with no contextual understanding of the outside world.

I'd make a game that has 3 planets for Samus to explore and a space Bar that acts as a hub world. The bar is full of seedy space people for Samus to interact with and get a feel for sentient alien lifeforms and the culture of her world. The bar could even get attacked by Metroids in the last third fo the game so you can see what it would be like for a Metroid outbreak to actually happen.

Someone above pointed out that Metroid Prime 3 does a lot to expand the universe, as does Metroid Other M. Other M is very widely disliked, especially for its story, so I won't bring that up much. But part of the reason I've never actually been able to make myself finish Prime 3 is the expanded focus on filling in the universe's details. Metroid is a series I've grown up with and one of the things that has always kept it relevant to me is how little we know about the universe in which it all takes place. We're only given snippets instead of a full picture - we know only what we need to know to continue on. One of my favorite things about Metroid Prime and Super Metroid is the sense of isolation, the knowledge that there's a bigger world out there but it's irrelevant to what I'm doing and the game I'm playing.

Plus, I don't like visiting other planets in Metroid games. It means that the world and the areas don't interconnect and the levels just become isolated. Makes it easier on the level designers but it also means that you don't get on an elevator and then come out in a place you left three hours ago. Also, it means more loading screens.

#4 Edited by believer258 (12849 posts) -

Perhaps if you wrote a (respectably sized) blog post about the game and used the video as a supplement for it?

#5 Posted by believer258 (12849 posts) -

@believer258 said:
@nophilip said:
@crimsonavenger said:

There's no audience for that at all (rightfully so because Metroid very clearly doesn't work in 2D).

...I'm having a hard time believing I just read that. The majority of the Metroid series is 2D and most of those are considered classics. The vast, vast majority of "Metroidvania" style games are also in 2D. How the hell does Metroid not work in 2D?

That's clearly sarcasm. It must be, right? No one who has a functioning brain and the slightest experience with a controller could reasonably come to the conclusion that Metroid doesn't work well in 2D.

I don't see why people like 2D Metroid so much. They were terrible games. Metroid works better 3D and makes sense as a first person shooter. I never grew up with Nintendo so I have no nostalgia for their games. I can't find any enjoyment in playing 2D Metroid. I can not understand why people proclaim games like the original Metroid or even Metroid Prime, to be masterpieces. In the case of Metroid Prime I'd say it wasn't even good, let alone a masterpiece. It was an interesting concept but ultimately falls short in comparison to Halo. Metroid Prime has no story, worse controls (not a fault of Retro though), relentless difficulty, a character that controls like a tank, needless backtracking, and a distinct lack of voice acting. As for the original Metroid, it's very much a product of its time.

A modern 2D Metroid could be good but I doubt it would be. Nintendo's approach to game design is still largely stuck in the past and that's not what I would want in a new 2D Metroid game. Nintendo hardly has a great track record for 2D games. I mean 2D Mario is dreadful (though 3D Mario at times has hardly been better). If they took modern game design and applied to 2D Metroid then yes it could be good.

You could post "I'M A TROLL!" in the biggest, most obnoxious letters possible and that still would have been more subtle than this.

#6 Posted by believer258 (12849 posts) -

@nophilip said:
@crimsonavenger said:

There's no audience for that at all (rightfully so because Metroid very clearly doesn't work in 2D).

...I'm having a hard time believing I just read that. The majority of the Metroid series is 2D and most of those are considered classics. The vast, vast majority of "Metroidvania" style games are also in 2D. How the hell does Metroid not work in 2D?

That's clearly sarcasm. It must be, right? No one who has a functioning brain and the slightest experience with a controller could reasonably come to the conclusion that Metroid doesn't work well in 2D.

#7 Edited by believer258 (12849 posts) -

Considering there are games out there that do Metroid better than Metroid, I dunno if I care.

*dodges rocks thrown at me*

I mean, if the only Metroid you've played is Fusion, then yeah.

That said... I don't know. Thinking about a new Nintendo developed Metroid makes me flop back and forth between super excitement and pressing cynicism. Can Nintendo make a modern Metroid game that feels like a Metroid game but isn't essentially a retread of Super Metroid and/or Zero Mission? Especially after Axiom Verge has come out. I don't think that game is as brilliantly designed as Super Metroid, but it does play with the formula in ways that I just don't think Nintendo in 2015 is capable of. None of this is to say that I wouldn't buy a hypothetical new Metroid game - I would, I'd buy a new fucking console for it, unless they farmed it out to Team fucking Ninja again - but the series is too bogged down in history and Nintendo themselves are too bogged down in recreating that history to release a game in 2015, 2016, or whenever that really does the genre and the series's name justice. The genre has come a long way in the last few years - Dust, Axiom Verge, Ori, etc. - and I don't feel like Nintendo's up to following those acts with something that's both as good or better and as inventive or more. I'm all for them trying! Please try! But I seriously doubt that a new 2D Metroid will be anything other than a retread of old design or a bunch of gimmicks that don't fit together as well as Samus's usual grouping of upgrades.

I don't want to see them tackle 3D without Retro at the helm, for the record.

#8 Edited by believer258 (12849 posts) -

Persona Q is a solid purchase but, unless you're a massive Persona 3 and 4 fan, Etrian Odyssey IV is the game you should play first.

Worth noting that Etrian Odyssey IV only has one save file and PQ has three. If you're planning on sharing this game, might want to take that into account.

#9 Posted by believer258 (12849 posts) -

A lot of parents either don't pay attention or don't care. I can't imagine that all of them buying games for their kids don't know what those games are, but I would guess that some of them somehow still believe that games are for kids and all of them are supposed to be OK.

#10 Posted by believer258 (12849 posts) -

Wait, really? I wouldn't say that I've found tons but I certainly have a few of them. I'm using one called Adein Deith (I think that's how you spell it?) right now and it's pretty good. I've got a fair number of diagrams, too.

Two questions:

1) Are you sticking to the main quest and rushing through things?

2) Are you turning on Witcher Senses, or whatever it is, to see what you can interact with? All you have to do is hold it for a second and everything that you can interact with gets a yellow highlight. Fantastic for poking around rooms that might have treasure. You should be poking your head in everywhere you feel like, for that matter.

The city that the Bloody Baron lives in has a smith and an armorer in it, so try there.