"Learn to play noob", even though you won.

So here I am trying to hone my skills in Starcraft 2 and I start out ok with a few wins here and a few loses there, it's a very competitive game and many people take it seriously and I don't blame them it is the sequel to in my opinion the greatest RTS of all time and I believe lived up to it's hype. 
 
I usually jump into 1v1 right away with Zerg as my main race and then go right into a early zergling rush to throw off my opponent, and in the silver league it seems to work fairly well except for the players that expect it and will have a defence made blocking off the entrance to their base easily killing most ground units that decide to peak their noses in. Now the early rush has gotten me wins a good few times but when it does I get a message from almost every player stating "Learn to play noob" or something along the lines of me not having any skill, well if I didn't have any skill and you are the one saying this shouldn't you have stopped the rush? Retard.
 
I just wanted to get that off my chest, seems to be a lot of pissy idiots on Starcraft 2 especially when they lose, but this hasn't ruined my experience at all, I kind of enjoy watching them type furiously as their base is being demolished by my few zerglings and roaches. So have any of you experienced something along the lines of this while playing Starcraft 2 or any other online game or even with your friends? 
 

 "LULZ, bitch got owned"
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Posted by Bucketdeth

So here I am trying to hone my skills in Starcraft 2 and I start out ok with a few wins here and a few loses there, it's a very competitive game and many people take it seriously and I don't blame them it is the sequel to in my opinion the greatest RTS of all time and I believe lived up to it's hype. 
 
I usually jump into 1v1 right away with Zerg as my main race and then go right into a early zergling rush to throw off my opponent, and in the silver league it seems to work fairly well except for the players that expect it and will have a defence made blocking off the entrance to their base easily killing most ground units that decide to peak their noses in. Now the early rush has gotten me wins a good few times but when it does I get a message from almost every player stating "Learn to play noob" or something along the lines of me not having any skill, well if I didn't have any skill and you are the one saying this shouldn't you have stopped the rush? Retard.
 
I just wanted to get that off my chest, seems to be a lot of pissy idiots on Starcraft 2 especially when they lose, but this hasn't ruined my experience at all, I kind of enjoy watching them type furiously as their base is being demolished by my few zerglings and roaches. So have any of you experienced something along the lines of this while playing Starcraft 2 or any other online game or even with your friends? 
 

 "LULZ, bitch got owned"
Posted by ShadowLords

i have that too sometimes with my reaper rushes. there also a lil longer to pull some out then zerglings so they should of had atleast a lil defence by then >.> , or when you win and they scatter everywhere and wont leave untill you kill every last building they have while they constantly try and tell you off of how you suck at the game and even eventually reaches points where they can "beat you up in real life so your lucky its just a game" :p really dont see what they gain from all of it

Posted by Three0neFive

they mad

Posted by Truant19

While I do agree with you, zergling rush is fine, since 6 zerglings can be easily killed by your workers, and if the zerg has any more then 6, you should have units to counter them. Though when players play with intense cheese to win, even if you lose, it is still apporiate to say the player has no skill.
 
The logic behind this is, even though you lost, its not because you had less skill. A good example would be in a poker, A player just going all in, every hand. Now, we all know if the player gets lucky he can win, even if he is playing against really good players, he can still win, based on luck. Many players find cheese builds like proxy etc... like that, where they don't rely on skill, or understanding but more or less luck that there not spotted in time.
 
Definitely, zergling rushing is not cheese by any standard though.

Posted by Pinworm45
@Truant19 said:
"  Definitely, zergling rushing is not cheese by any standard though. "
Yes it is. You literally can not get a better definition of cheese than a 6 pool. 
 
Also, if you beat someone doing something lame, then fine, you beat them, but didn't necessarily do anything that took skill to win. Thus people can get frustrated. It's annoying to lose to people who beat you but didn't do anything complicated or skill requiring at the same time. 
 
Not that I'm defending people being like LEARN TO PLAY NOOB exactly, I would never do that, I can just understand why people might say that in frustration. 
Posted by Jeffsekai
@Bucketdeth: Okay this is hard to understand sometimes I know but bare with me, just because you won a game dosn't mean you are better than the other player. Beat someone in a first to 5 and then they won't have anything to say. 
 
Also, from the sounds of it....are you 6 pooling? if so stop that shit right now you are not good at all if that is how you get your wins.  There was a guy Orb (hes a "pro SC2 player) he seemed to be getting a lot of exposer during the beta and one of my fav things he would always say is that a good player will always push for a heavy micro/macro game not an early on rush. Why don't you start playing legit then make a thread about how awesome you are.
Posted by empfeix

Happens all the time to me too.  People just don't like it when you win with a method a lot of starcraft snobs call cheese tactics.   
 
Honestly this is pretty much true in all games.  In TF2 people used to say "Pyro lols W+M1".  Noob Tube seems to be a popular phrase now in a lot of FPS games. 
 
I understand why it can be frustrating to lose the same way multiple times.  Especially if its hard to defend, or maybe even overpowered.  But since I love "cheese" tactics in SC2 I will continue to do so and its more satisfying when they get upset! 

Posted by Icemael
@Jeffsekai said:

" Also, from the sounds of it....are you 6 pooling? if so stop that shit right now you are not good at all if that is how you get your wins.  There was a guy Orb (hes a "pro SC2 player) he seemed to be getting a lot of exposer during the beta and one of my fav things he would always say is that a good player will always push for a heavy micro/macro game not an early on rush. Why don't you start playing legit then make a thread about how awesome you are. "

Here's one of my favorite things I always say: a good player wins.
Posted by Domorin

I get this a whole heck of alot, even when I play a completely standard game, no cheese at all. Most of the time people are just angry when they lose a long, close game. In a recent game someone actually blamed blizzards programming (?) for his loss, even though we were both terran.

Posted by ajamafalous
@Icemael said:
" Here's one of my favorite things I always say: a good player wins. "
This x1000.
Posted by Hailinel
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Bucketdeth: Okay this is hard to understand sometimes I know but bare with me, just because you won a game dosn't mean you are better than the other player. Beat someone in a first to 5 and then they won't have anything to say.  Also, from the sounds of it....are you 6 pooling? if so stop that shit right now you are not good at all if that is how you get your wins.  There was a guy Orb (hes a "pro SC2 player) he seemed to be getting a lot of exposer during the beta and one of my fav things he would always say is that a good player will always push for a heavy micro/macro game not an early on rush. Why don't you start playing legit then make a thread about how awesome you are. "
So because he won using supposedly non-expert tactics, he's still the worse player and it's fine for the loser to say that he sucks?
Posted by MrGetBonus

 Eh, this happens in every game. There's always a "cheap" way to win in everything. Unless you are exploiting glitch or bug or something, it's all fair. Don't hate the player, hate the game right? Complain to Blizzard if something is "overpowered". Besides, a good player should be planning for every stage of the game. This ain't some fastest possible ever BGH NR20 bullshit.

Posted by Jeffsekai
@Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do) 
Posted by Hailinel
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics?
Posted by Jeffsekai
@Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub.
Posted by JokerClown88

I like flying in mass Mutas when the enemy has no anti air.  I love it.  Nice choice in main race. ;)

Posted by Aronman789
@Icemael said:
Here's one of my favorite things I always say: a good player wins. "
QTF, don't matter what you do as long as you win, and if someone complains, well fuck them, you won. Can't say "lolz u suk fuking noob" in real warfare.
Posted by Jeknod
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub. "
SRS BSNS
Posted by Wes899

Lol. THEY are the ones that need to learn to play. Nothing is cheap. Except voidrays. lololol

Posted by Hailinel
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub. "
And if he beats your ass into the ground, what does that say about you?
Posted by Red12b

Wow, this turned ugly.
Edited by Cataphract1014

6 pool is cheese.  In the same way that proxy 2 gate is cheese.
 
I haven't been beat by a 6 pool in awhile, if they just do that.  If they are any good after your stop them, they will switch to banelings.  Marines can kill zerglings while an SCV repairs the wall in, but if banelings come and the defender isn't ready, they are screwed.
 
6 pool rushing is like a 100 pound guy kicking brock lesnar in the nuts and saying he is a better fighter.
 
But if you aren't using 6 pool and are just beating  players in silver, then its all good.  Defending from a early, non-cheese rush is a important skill to learn. 

Posted by Bucketdeth

Look it's not my fault that the early Zerg rush works a lot, if I played Terran or Protoss I would work on my front defenses while playing against a Zerg player pronto but I always play Zerg and it's always the same bullshit "Fucking suck noob", even though when the early rush doesn't work I can usually survive and build up some hyrdas and get the overlord speed and transport upgrade to drop them into the back of the enemy's base and even then I sometimes get some trash talk.
 
Learn to defend your base against an early rush instead of being a elitist retard and saying "Yo dats cheese build, u fukin suk". You can always counter something no matter how much harder it is for you then it is for the other player, learn to adapt to that and you will look like one hell of a player.

Posted by Bennyishere

How about everybody grows up and stop calling each other noobs regardless? Sigh, if only that would actually happen.

Posted by c1337us

This "play legit" bullshit I hear from people in games like this really annoy me. If a player uses a tactic permitted by the design of the way the game is made and wins it's a legitimate tactic in my book. If people start getting on their high horse and insulting you fuck them they are assholes. If they are so good they should be able to defend against the tactic.

Edited by RGHamburger

If it's in the game, it's not cheating, cheap, or lame.

It's there by design, and if you can't cope with it you'll lose.
Posted by teh_pwnzorer

In the olden days, you would see your enemies scattered before you and the only thing you would hear were the lamentations of their women.

Posted by Praab_NZ

Hurr, just because its part of the game doesnt make it any less annoying or any less lame/cheesy. 
I take 6pool and M203's as a fine example of this. Nobody is saying its unfair, its just infuriating beacuse its so easy to pull off successfully, and relatively hard to counter (You have to scout early, wall ramps etc).
Posted by Mowgers

Jesus Christ, it's a competitive video game not a fucking dance. You do what you want to win, not follow the steps. If someone beats you with some 'lamer n00b tactics' or whatever it's your own damn fault for getting too caught up in the metagame. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and all's fair in love and war, so don't complain when someone deviates from your own expectations of strategy. Learn from it, prepare for it, don't be a pissy bitch about it.

Posted by SquirrelGOD

You should always, ALWAYS, play a competitive game like you were John McClane.  End of story.  What does John McClane do?  Whatever it takes to fucking WIN.  He doesn't bitch if the bad guys have machine guns and shoes.  No, he gets out there, and gets that shit done.  All you people whining about how you get your asses beat by certain tactics need to stop bitching and do what needs to be done to overcome the problem and get the win.
 
...Also, John McClane wouldn't throw a damn hissy fit if he lost in a VIDEO GAME.  So, stop playing if you're not having fun and your feelings are getting so badly hurt.

Posted by StaticInSnow

Nothing is cheap, everyime you lose to a cheese rush, a scout would have prevented it.  I'm not saying I don't get annoyed when something like this happens, but from the moment that game starts you have to be on the ball and figuring out what the opponent is doing.

Posted by Willy105
@c1337us said:
" This "play legit" bullshit I hear from people in games like this really annoy me. If a player uses a tactic permitted by the design of the way the game is made and wins it's a legitimate tactic in my book. If people start getting on their high horse and insulting you fuck them they are assholes. If they are so good they should be able to defend against the tactic. "
Yeah. It's like saying you cheated on a baseball game by running around the diamond.
Posted by Yummylee
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub. "
Just....ugh...
Posted by ErrorOperator

6 pool zerg in bronze and silver should be an easy win, however these wins will move you up and soon you will be playing gold + higher players, these will know what to do when they scout early and see a 6 pool. I would advise trying out some different tactics and honing those perfectly because those zergling rushes will not rack up the wins for long. 

Posted by Addfwyn
@Jeffsekai:  
 
In my opinion, there isn't really 'cheese'.  There are things that work and things that don't.  Any 'cheese' strategy can be countered, it's just players that rage about it when it works on them that complain.   There isn't a "right" way to play the game, and people that claim "only really intensive macro games count" are just sad.  If you can't scout the gimmick strategies and counter them, you don't deserve to win the match.
 
6 pool is counterable, proxy pylon or hatcheries is counterable, everything is counterable especially if you learn to scout.  If you are losing to these 'cheese' strategies, then you need to scout and have nobody to blame but yourself.  If there was a cheap tactic that was 100% uncounterable that'd be cheese, but also everyone would use it.  There is no such uncounterable strategy.  If you get caught by a 6 pool or whatever, you have nobody to blame but yourself and you deserved to lose.
Posted by Supermarius
@Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub. "
And if he beats your ass into the ground, what does that say about you? "
It's kind of funny how RTS games don't apparently have an equivalent to the Sirlin article, "Playing to win".  All the RTS players claiming that winning with a zerg rush is cheap and not real skill, would be deemed "bitches" in the fighting game community.  If there is a strategy that leads to winning, you have to use it.  It's not cheap, you just have to learn how to counter/prepare for it and if you don't then you deserve to lose.  The concept of a cheap strategy is generally an illusion; a mental crutch that mediocre players use to rationalize their own losses.
Posted by PhaggyBigNastyMcKill

Its only cheese if its a general all in option. But even then if you scouted the guy out and you see that the cheese tactic will win, then go for it. That is equiv of going all in on a pair, but you know the other person can't beat your pair so there was still skill there and everything. This is also why people play best to 3, 5, 10, etc when they want to proove they are better than one another, since you may get a rush victory here and there, but if the other person is smarter, then overall he will come back in the set and beat those rushes. Of course, you would theorectically learn as well and change on the fly. 

Posted by wchigo
@ErrorOperator said:
" 6 pool zerg in bronze and silver should be an easy win, however these wins will move you up and soon you will be playing gold + higher players, these will know what to do when they scout early and see a 6 pool. I would advise trying out some different tactics and honing those perfectly because those zergling rushes will not rack up the wins for long.  "
This would be the primary reason why I don't really advocate using "cheese" to win most of your games. In the lower leagues those kinds of tactics will get you wins, but that type of play will only take you so far. I will say that it will probably even work in Gold to an extent, but once you get to Platinum you're gonna find yourself on the losing end of a lot of games.
 
Most people despise cheese just because it's so easy to do, and generally a lot of people prefer to play a long game instead of one that ends in <5 minutes. And while scouting can prevent you from losing to cheese, it can still deal a serious blow to a player. Someone once said that "the only way to not lose to cheese is to expect to be cheesed every game". While I don't think that's 100% accurate, there is some truth to it. A lot of times if you scout at a normal time, it can be too late to counter cheese. So you might take a bit of a blow to your economy in order to scout early in anticipation of cheese, and if your opponent is playing standard there's a fair chance you've put yourself behind already.
 
Overall though, those people are probably more pissed off at themselves for losing rather than your tactics, but they need something/someone to use as a scapegoat. Just ignore 'em, but I would look into more standard types of play, as well as transitioning from an early ling rush for times when that itself doesn't end the game.
Posted by Semition
@Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub. "
And if he beats your ass into the ground, what does that say about you? "
On the lower ranks, nothing. Among weaker players, a cheese is much easier to pull off than to defend.
Posted by Jeffsekai
@Supermarius said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Hailinel said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Icemael: @Hailinel:  It takes 0 skill to win with a 6 pool zerg rush. But it takes a fair amount of preparation to defend against it and a crazy early scout (which in Silver league no one will do)  "
You didn't answer my question.  You're saying it's okay to insult the winner when he defeats you using supposedly lesser tactics? "
I'm saying if he wins with a 6 pool Zerg rush in Silver  league yea hes a fuckin scrub. "
And if he beats your ass into the ground, what does that say about you? "
It's kind of funny how RTS games don't apparently have an equivalent to the Sirlin article, "Playing to win".  All the RTS players claiming that winning with a zerg rush is cheap and not real skill, would be deemed "bitches" in the fighting game community.  If there is a strategy that leads to winning, you have to use it.  It's not cheap, you just have to learn how to counter/prepare for it and if you don't then you deserve to lose.  The concept of a cheap strategy is generally an illusion; a mental crutch that mediocre players use to rationalize their own losses. "
Do you even play Starcraft 2? 6 pool literally doesn't require any skill I'm not exaggerating at all . You make a spawning pool as fast as you can and then throw zerglings at them. The pool is so early that on some maps the other dude would have no way of scouting in time. 
 
 
If you win with a 6 pool zergling rush you are not the better player, you do not have the better macro, you do not have the better micro you did a cheap ass tactic that only trolls use and then think you're good or wonder why people are calling you out.  Actually that's a good way to put it, Zerg 6 pool rush is just like trolling in Starcraft 2 sure it's "easy" to counter but chances are the other dude is gonna be so pissed off that you did it he will just quit.
Posted by Sadisticham

I only mind it because that's not what i want from my game. If you get your jollys from 5 minute games using the same unit every single game and nothing else then i feel sorry for you.
 
Personally i want a longer match with a wider variety of units. I don't mind if i lose because i tried my best and so on. But in the same sense that your allowed to rush me I'm also allowed to scatter my units in all directions, fly my buildings to the corners of the map and browse the internet while i wait for you to tech up to air and kill me.

Edited by Binman88

I don't like being rushed either, but I never type anything to the other player. I prefer games to last long (at least ten or fifteen minutes) though, so I do my best to wall off my base (I play Terran) and keep the opposition at bay. If they get through in the first couple of minutes I just lift off my base and fly away somewhere. Sometimes I land, if it's safe, and sometimes I just set a string of movement commands and alt-tab and go make a sandwich. It's an asshole thing to do, sure, but clearly someone who rushes early on has the "if it's in the game" mentality, so I'm just using what's available for me too! 
 
Edit:  
 
@Sadisticham
said:

" I only mind it because that's not what i want from my game. If you get your jollys from 5 minute games using the same unit every single game and nothing else then i feel sorry for you.  Personally i want a longer match with a wider variety of units. I don't mind if i lose because i tried my best and so on. But in the same sense that your allowed to rush me I'm also allowed to scatter my units in all directions, fly my buildings to the corners of the map and browse the internet while i wait for you to tech up to air and kill me. "
This^
Posted by Nelander

The way I see it, there is a reason you dont see the top players using this type of tactics all the time, they can be countered if you have the knowledge and skill. If you lose to them then you still have to learn about the game and any type of derogatory comment is just bad sportsmanship.  
 
SC2 is a compettive game, to me saying that there are strategies that are cheesy  is like going to a real streetfight and only using  the Marquis of Fantailler rules. Any tactic that brings victory is a good tactic. of course if you are a one trick pony then dont expect to win against better players.

Posted by Symphony
@Jeffsekai said:

" @Bucketdeth: Okay this is hard to understand sometimes I know but bare with me, just because you won a game dosn't mean you are better than the other player. Beat someone in a first to 5 and then they won't have anything to say.  Also, from the sounds of it....are you 6 pooling? if so stop that shit right now you are not good at all if that is how you get your wins.  There was a guy Orb (hes a "pro SC2 player) he seemed to be getting a lot of exposer during the beta and one of my fav things he would always say is that a good player will always push for a heavy micro/macro game not an early on rush. Why don't you start playing legit then make a thread about how awesome you are. "

 Yeah, Bucket! Listen to the guy who comes into every thread criticizing the TS and seldom has anything constructive or positive to say!  
 
This is on par with saying picking Ken was cheap in SFIV or using a grenade launcher build was cheap in MW2. There will always be this sort of argument for any competitive game "Such and such is so cheesy, it takes no skill! Lrn2play the way I want you to play!"
 
These whiners don't care about you, they just want to try and impose their opinions on others. Fuck em. Play how you want to play.
Posted by Jeffsekai
@Symphony: rofl, u mad
Posted by SJSchmidt93

Because rushes take no skill at all.

Posted by wefwefasdf

@Jeffsekai 
As my friend always says, "umadubad".
Posted by empfeix
@Binman88 said:
" I don't like being rushed either, but I never type anything to the other player. I prefer games to last long (at least ten or fifteen minutes) though, so I do my best to wall off my base (I play Terran) and keep the opposition at bay. If they get through in the first couple of minutes I just lift off my base and fly away somewhere. Sometimes I land, if it's safe, and sometimes I just set a string of movement commands and alt-tab and go make a sandwich. It's an asshole thing to do, sure, but clearly someone who rushes early on has the "if it's in the game" mentality, so I'm just using what's available for me too!   
 
Good point.  That's why I never get mad when someone lifts there base when I rush them.  It's kind of like a victory lap for me.
Posted by Earthborn

If you're winning 1v1 with a rush, you deserve it. It's not difficult to fight off a rush in SC2 provided your opponent knows how.
Posted by sixghost
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Bucketdeth: Okay this is hard to understand sometimes I know but bare with me, just because you won a game dosn't mean you are better than the other player. Beat someone in a first to 5 and then they won't have anything to say.  Also, from the sounds of it....are you 6 pooling? if so stop that shit right now you are not good at all if that is how you get your wins.  There was a guy Orb (hes a "pro SC2 player) he seemed to be getting a lot of exposer during the beta and one of my fav things he would always say is that a good player will always push for a heavy micro/macro game not an early on rush. Why don't you start playing legit then make a thread about how awesome you are. "
This is all true, but learning how to rush or cheese is just as essential a skill as playing safe and standard. If you are just referring to people who do nothing but 6pool/3rax reaper/proxy 2gate in an attempt to inflate their ladder ranking, than I agree with you, but learning how to mix up your style of play is key when you are playing multiple games against the same person. Good players rush all the time. I just watched a Bo5 between dimaga and demuslim and there were two 6pools in 5 games. Things like that are legitimate strategies to punish someone for being way too greedy with their build.
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