I was like, "Eh, that thing doesn't look that bad." Then I read that it doesn't fold, looked at the picture once again, and now my brain just exploded. In some ways its like, "Yeah, that's a good idea" cause the 3D in the 3DS has only been something I cared about in Mario 3D Land and Pushmo, but the design is down right terrible and the reduced price may actually lose Nintendo money because I'm not sure how many more people are going to buy this that wouldn't have bought a 3DS anyway.
DoctorWelch's forum posts
I was like, "Eh, that thing doesn't look that bad." Then I read that it doesn't fold, looked at the picture once again, and now my brain just exploded.
Your logic is rather mystifying. I didn't prove anything with my second paragraph other than you can oversaturate on any type of story. The same would be true if you had been reading a bunch of westerns, and then another western popped up. For people not used to stories set in the old West, it would be novel. For people who routinely read that fiction, it would not. The fact that you can oversaturate by seeking out a particular genre or story type does not inherently render a particular type of story uninteresting. I happen to be friends with a couple of LGBT writers who focus on those themes, which is the only reason that popped into my head.
I don't want to misconstrue what you're saying, but what you appear to be asking for is to ignore the real world differences in experience between gay kids and straight kids. You want to homogenize two things that are in fact different, with plenty of real world examples of how they are different. Also, how do you go about reaching this point of normalcy you argue for without going through a period of telling these types of stories? Part of the process of reaching this ambiguous equality you've claimed to want would be going through a period of telling stories from these perspectives.
Let's just forget the whole prove my point thing because it was more of just a representation of what I was talking about and the two things are kind of separate ideas all together. I was simply taking the fact that in that case fiction is drastically influencing a point of view when that rarely happens. It's almost always the other way around where fiction reflects society. So essentially my point is that if you are someone who wants gay characters to be seen as normal, you shouldn't praise stories like this for merely including a gay person dealing with being gay as something interesting enough to stand on its own because that is by definition saying it is not normal.
Lastly, I'm not really arguing for any set of ideals I have. What I'm saying is that people have stances of equality and normalcy, but don't actually know what any of that means. They have a set of values that they don't think through and then actually act in opposition to those values. Which is why I think stories like this are so gross. No one on either side is really thinking in depth about any of these problems. While the story may actually be interesting, it is also stating through its interest being focused on the fact that the person is gay that being gay is somehow inherently different, odd, and should be looked at as such. Then people all across the gaming community who so desperately want games to be art that speak to important problems see this focus on a gay person in a game and act as though it is some ground breaking achievement in video games to include a story about a gay person. When in fact, the very point of interest and reaction is often times the exact opposite of the "equality" many people fight for.
So my conclusion is the majority of people who play, review, and make games don't have the greatest grasp on these issues because the implication of what the story is saying is exactly the opposite of what people think it is. Maybe there were good intentions behind the people that made it, and even the people reacting to it as they have, but in my eyes it is still a gross grab at attention and importance through a poorly thought through development of characters that actually have no worth other than to point out the fact that being a gay person in and of itself is somehow interesting. All the while people react positively, although ignorantly, to the very inclusion of this in any game whether it be well thought out or not.
I know, we're more sophisticated than those dirty CoD kids, unable to truly appreciate Gone Home like we can. Let's all laugh at their pathetic ignorance. After that we'll go to my house and do a in-depth study of Andy Warhol's riveting masterpiece Sleep. I've got Vitaminwater and seaweed crackers if you get hungry.
This is great. I came here to do this but you did it better than I ever could. Thread should be over after the first post.
There's actually a really dramatic difference between coming of age as gay and coming of age as straight. Most people assume that most kids are straight, and they are right most of the time. Therefore, as a gay teen, most people have already pigeonholed you as something you aren't. That represents stress and conflict, two of the sources of a good story. Second, if you are straight, then you can assume that roughly 95 percent of your peers are also straight and have no fear about being rejected due to your sexuality, nor being ostracized because you expressed that you are straight. As a gay kid, only about 5 percent of your peers are also gay, and maybe only 1-2 percent are going to be comfortable admitting that to anyone. So romantically expressing interest in someone carries with it very significant, and sometimes dangerous, social risks. Even today, gay teens face legal, family and social risks in many places in the world that simply don't exist for straight teens.
Now, if you're someone who pays attention to a lot of LGBT fiction, you might (justifiably) think, "Oh, another story like this, I'm a bit tired of these." But quite frankly, most people aren't routinely reading LGBT fiction, and so a story like this will actually be one of their few experiences with a story that's told from the perspective of a gay teen.
The idea that struggling with identity is the same regardless of sexuality, gender or race is really kind of ridiculous. Coming of age as a white kid in a Puerto Rican neighborhood is different than being a gay kid in Seattle and both are different from being a black kid in western Kansas. There are some universal experiences, but each of those is really unique as well, and likely contains a story worth telling. To assume that all these stories are the same is to strip away the wonderful diversity that is the human experience in context of particular ages of life.
You've proven my point in your second paragraph. If there were a lot of fiction that included gay characters that you didn't specifically seek out, the reaction would be as you've said. The public mind doesn't change to reflect fiction, in fact it's just the opposite. Therefore, if your goal is for gay characters to be adequately and equally represented in fiction, shouldn't they be portrayed in such a way, and also reacted to in such a way, that would communicate being gay as nothing special, weird, or out of the ordinary? That is my point.
That isn't to say that growing up or discovering oneself in controversial circumstances is completely uninteresting, but at the same time being gay, being black, being a woman, being a man, or being white is not something that stands up on its own as a special. The characters are gay. Who cares? Move on. Being gay and living with being gay is not by itself interesting. Unless of course you are saying that it is interesting, and that being straight and growing up to discover that you are straight is not interesting. Then you are directly saying that being straight and being gay aren't equal. You are saying one is clearly more interesting to create a story out of than the other. Which means you are directly opposing the ideal of equality in fiction to reflect society, which is my point.
This is the same thing with women protagonists, black protagonists, or anyone who isn't a white male in a video game. You know how to do it and not seem like a pretentious asshole looking for attention? Just do it and don't make a big deal out of it because who fucking cares. Everyone is equal, so why don't we treat them like they are?
I don't understand what you wanted from this game then? The story is about Sam and what happens to her over a year, and accepting herself as a homosexual is basically the biggest part of that entire year for her. It's fine if you think that it makes for a bad story, but this is what they wrote it about.
The point is the story is essentially the same as a white person struggling with being white, a black person struggling with being black, or a woman struggling with being a woman. On its own it is nothing more than a child whining about the realities in which he or she lives because he or she isn't mature enough to accept certain truths or choices. I'm not saying a conflict of self definition isn't interesting, but one presented as the sole purpose of any narrative is the reason why stories like the Twilight Series are so terrible and shallow.
This is why I'm saying this is a pretentious grab at importance through a worthless story. If this was a story about a straight person struggling with being straight there would be absolutely nothing interesting there because there actually isn't anything interesting there in the first place. That's not to say that being gay couldn't be used as a characteristic in a story to propel some conflict that wouldn't work if the character was straight, but just like if the sole purpose of the story was "Hey this girl is straight. Isn't that so meaningful and emotional because she has to deal with that?" it wouldn't be interesting, so too is the story when it's simply about a gay person being gay.
@doctorwelch: So a video game can't tell the story of gay relationship without being a "cheap ploy"? Are homosexuals in games so foreign to us that as soon as we have ONE game dealing with the issue it's a pretentious attention grab? Isn't that exactly the problem here?
Look at what I said above. The funny thing is, you are actually arguing against the very thing you think you're supporting. You want being gay to be a norm that is accepted in fiction, yet the entire point of this story is to point out that these characters are gay and make that some kind of defining characteristic that makes them important and interesting without anything else. If you are actually fighting for equality and normative change then that would be the exact opposite of what you want because this story is saying that a uninteresting story about straight people suddenly becomes interesting when they are gay because being gay is so different, unique, and non-normative.
It's weird to hear people talking about which console they are going to get when you look at the launch games the only question that comes to my mind is why I would want either of them.
This game is a fairly competent simulation of an environment that establishes some context that lightly connects the player with some characters that supposedly exist in the fictional world. I thought it was an okay example of creating places to explore rather than conflicts to solve, but the whole response to this game is a pretentious, sad, desperate cry for attention for those people that want, no, need video games to be something more than they are because they can't enjoy a medium without it being considered some kind of high art form.
Everything surrounding the sex of the characters is such a cheap ploy that does nothing more than make the entire game feel like a charade in communicating how "important" and "deep" games can be because "Hey guys, we can talk about gay people and isn't that like totally awesome for a video game man. Like, we are totally communicating deep emotions felt by characters because being gay was/is so hard in society, but dude, like it's not a bid deal dude...man." Things like that just take away from what the game actually does well which is play with player expectations about the game being some tragic/horror game when it really isn't.
This is the same thing with women protagonists, black protagonists, or anyone who isn't a white male in a video game. You know how to do it and not seem like a pretentious asshole looking for attention? Just do it and don't make a big deal out of it because who fucking cares. Everyone is equal, so why don't we treat them like they are? Making a big deal out of something like having a women, black person, or gay person in a video game is doing exactly the opposite of what the people highlighting it think they are doing. What matters is what makes the characters interesting emotionally, physically, geographically, mentally, socially, economically, etc., not some random characteristic that accomplishes nothing other than stereotyping for the use of some heavy handed, cheesy bull shit that reeks of such self-importance it's cringe worthy. That doesn't mean these things can't be facts about characters, but when they are it should be treated with the importance it deserves, which is to say it's not a bid deal so mention it and move on or...you know, don't mention it at all because it doesn't really matter.
There are some things this game does well, and maybe it is more the reaction to certain parts of it that have grossed me out, but I always find it sad when people that play video games try so desperately to reinforce this insane idea that we need to force artistic importance through terribly force messaging into our experiences so that we can be seen as a mature, legitimate medium.
Yes I think it is a little childish, but at the same time fuck that thing. Motion gaming is over just like plastic instruments. No one cares anymore, and I never played a single game other than Wario Ware and Wii Sports that actually put that thing to good use. The guys don't feel like flailing their arms around anymore, and frankly, I don't think anyone else does either.
I just included a bunch of you from the last few pages that said you were intermediate or veteran, but anyone else who sees this message can reply to me too.
Here's the deal, my friend and I are at a crossroads with this game. Either we find a consistent team of people to get better with and eventually play captains mode, or we are just going to stop playing all together because random draft games with strangers gets old extremely fast. Some of you are probably better than us, and some of you are probably worse, but my friend and I both feel like we are at the stage where we won't get any better at the game unless we start playing with a team.
Since there are only two of us we aren't looking for any role specific people yet. I like to play a carry usually, but both of us can pretty much play any role. We are looking for people that want to win and get better, but aren't pretentious dicks about how good they are or passive aggressive about people doing things incorrectly. You must have pretty good social skills because talking and dealing with adversity is key in a game centered around teamwork. I know it sounds stupid, but if you can't communicate without being a dick or you don't deal well with loosing than we don't want you on our team because we don't want to have to deal with that.
Add me on steam, my name there is Doctor Welch. Also, we are on the east coast and usually play in the afternoon/evening. We don't necessarily play every single day, but if we found a consistent team then we might.