DrBroel

Has-Been Heroes has a 53 on metacritic.

I don't just think this game is good, I think it's phenomenal. It was my GOTY 2017.

It was just reviewed for the completely wrong audience (Switch gamers looking for casual fantasy fun) instead of who it's for (those looking for very deep tactical difficulty that rewards discovery)

@kemuri07: very much disagree that its poetic justice. I think its more the metaphysical world they live in. but we can agree to disagree. it is a very complicated work of art.

The fireflys refer to her as "Abby from Santa Barbra"

Is that a reference to "Abby from Brooklyn"?

I'm a little disappointed to see people thinking Joel's death and how he died is some sort of moral judgment on him and how he lived. His death has nothing to do with that. The game clearly loves Joel no matter his transgressions. His death is just a result of the "cycles-of-violence" theme this story tells.

I'm curious how many people who dislike the game saw the two spoilers. Joel dies and you play as the character that kills him.

Did you see this before playing? Cuz on paper I can see this seeming like a pretty bad story. But in execution, there is so much more going on.

It's so easy to tell that people that say "the writing is bad" or "characters don't make sense" haven't played through the game. Especially when you can go back and see they were making these statements when the game had only been out for a few hours.

There are critical character motivation reveals through the entire game. These characters so insanely well fleshed out. In terms of having a narrative structured to investigate its themes, there aren't many games better written this.

It's very slowly paced. It requires a lot of patience. But so do a lot of great works of art.

@ragnar_mike: surely you must see that it is a more thematically complex game.

I'm not knocking the first game. The first game executes its theme TRULY perfectly.

But this game is so much more complicated, with its characters and their psychology, and its thematic goals.

With these ambitions, I don't think anything could feel perfect like the first game. It's too loaded. But I do think it's very successful at what it has done.

@nodima: okay. I hear you. I did not want to be taken away from Ellie at that moment either. The game wants you to feel that way too.

But the game is also being structurally experimental here, too. And not just formality for formality's sake. In that moment that Abby attacks, you don't just identify with Ellie, you are her as the player.

The game then pulls away and asks you to play not just a little as Abby but a full game. I think they tried to ease this by putting the best set pieces and combat encounters in Abby's game.

Point is you plan a full game as Abby, so that when you get back to the scene in question you are different person, figuratively and literally.

Then the game pulls the rug out from under you again by forcing you to play as Ellie as she leaves the farm to further seek revenge. Which at that point you as the player should be pretty freaking uncomfortable with. You get what you wanted, you just don't want it anymore. That's the developer playing with the medium of games. The structure is very unconventional and yet essential to gut punch you in this way.

The thing that makes this game so impressive is it actually has something to say.

So did TLOU1, but the message was much more straight forward. Which helped it resonate with so many people (me, included. Maybe my favorite game of the decade).

The TLOU2 is dealing with more complex themes. And maybe it doesn't nail those as thoroughly as the first game but it's aiming much higher.

This brings to my mind Adam Nayman's fantastic review of PTA's The Master and how it compares to it's predecessor There Will Be Blood.

http://www.reverseshot.org/reviews/entry/1710/master

"The byproduct of that quality is of course unresolved tension of the kind that frustrates audiences and moves critics alike, and which was absent in the rigorously planned out “masterpiece” structure of There Will Be Blood, a film that Michael Sicinski once wrote operated on a sort of “one-to-one ratio,” and did so spectacularly. True enough. The Master does not feel similarly immediate, nor so immediately of a piece. But unlike Freddie, who is all elbows physically and all thumbs emotionally, and whose fight-or-flight instincts are uncontrollable, its maker absolutely knows where he’s going, and how to get there."

It's not just that. If it was only about interpersonal connections, then Abby's arc wouldn't put such an emphasis on finding the Fireflys. Or the emphasis given to Lev's faith.

I'm also curious about what people thought the boat on the title screen signified. I knew it was going to play into the end of the game in some way.