@Egge said:

@Tennmuerti: While you make some reasonable points (or, rather, point out things I could have clarified further in my very short blog post) I get uneasy about the literalist interpretation of what I as a self-ascribed old school RPG fan "must" appreciate in an old school RPGs. For example, in principle I find hand-holding to be totally OK, and TW2 undeniably has some of that (compared to older RPGs, anyway) but doesn't implement it well enough. The combination of precise-looking quest markers and an extremely impressionistic map is one of the the most annoying aspects for me personally.

Likewise, lots of dialogue is good if and only if the dialogue itself is good, and in TW2 I feel there's a lot of confusing lore and hilarious swearing but not a lot of actual character development (and what made Triss such a needy pushover compared to the first game?). I played Witcher 1 fairly recently and the story exposition in TW2 still felt confusing and haphazardly put together, though it should also be said that I have a very low general tolerance for games which spend a lot of time talking about their lore (in fact, I partly disliked DA:O for many of the same reasons). And Planescape Torment was a glorified text adventure, not your typical old school RPG, so I don't think that's a great comparison. Besides, "old school" for me is Wizardry and Might & Magic, not a game released during one of the most recent "PC RPG revival" phases.

And yes, I liked DA2 (despite being underwhelming compared to DA:O) and am willing to defend the game no matter what the conventional wisdom is. And if you're right that people won't take me seriously simply because I don't agree with what seems to be the majority opinion on a given subject, then that's just sad and a fact of life but also sort of irrelevant.

Considering you have addressed only a couple of my points, I will assume that everything else I said you are not debating.

The markers have already been addressed by the person who commented on your list before me. They point exactly where you need to go when they are there. And when there are no markers, you need to figure it out from the quest notes.

You are honestly like the only person disliking Witcher 2 dialogue I've seen. And from what you just wrote I'm not surprised, you seem to put little value in lore/dialogue in an RPG (from your comments on DA:O, Planescape) and that's fine. But that doesn't make Witcher 2 bad. It's just your personal dislike to this type of thing in a game. By contrast DA2 simplistic take on dialogue is what a lot of people dislike.

@Egge said:

@ArbitraryWater: This blog post was a bad idea in many ways - mostly because it doesn't really argue anything but merely expresses my (deeply held and actually quite carefully considered) opinions - but my primary goal was simply to state how baffled I am by all the praise that has been heaped on this good but somewhat unsuccesful and frustrating game.

Also, there appears to be a disheartening (though perhaps not surprising) herd mentality at work here in the reactions to both DA2 and TW2, since to be a true RPG fan (especially on the PC) you have to like TW2 and dislike DA2, with every other conceivable reaction being automatically regarded as insincere (which is really harmful since you can never defend yourself - with arguments, anyway - against a label). For a subculture which seems to take pride in being more intelligent and open-minded than the great unwashed masses of CoD players and WoW critters out there, this is not a healthy state of affairs.

The quality of DA2 has already been talked to death on these forums. Therefore most people are not going to repeat and argue the same things for the 100th time. Its is generally accepted that DA2 was an inferior quality RPG (not in relation to W2), whether or not it was downright bad was a matter of taste for most people. But the majority tended to agree that it was undeserving of the label of "good", with a few people that did like it. There is a big difference between herd mentality and majority opinion. Don't mix the 2. It's very comfortable to tell yourself that general disagreement with you is just "herd mentality". (You are also insulting pretty much everyone who replied to you by calling on "herd mentality", - not a smooth move.)

Furthermore you presented in your OP several opinions that were downright false. They were not vague opinions, just false statements. Such as the amount of fetch quests, one hit kill bosses or DA2 environments for example.

In this very response you state that this game is somewhat unsuccessful. You are appearing to present your personal feeling as fact, intentionally or not. Just like you did in the initial post. Where as the game has been successful by all metrics sales, critical reception, word of mouth. I realize that what you are saying is that it was unsuccessful to you personally, but that's not the general intent such statements convey. Your initial blog post came on very strongly with an opinion, so people replied with strong opinions themselves.

@TerraMantis: Fair points. Although very minor in my opinion, except the interface and potions bit.

It seems to me that if you even liked Dragon Age 2 you are some kind of freak to a lot of people.
 
I enjoyed both games.  Equally.

@Jimbo: Haha, good one Jimbo.

@TerraMantis: Fair points. Although very minor in my opinion, except the interface and potions bit.

I'll wager you consider Oblivion an old school RPG.

.....  
 
Wow.  
 
lol, Dragon Age 2 is woefully bad!

After playing Dragon Age 2 to completion and just having started Chapter 3 of The Witcher 2, I have to respectfully disagree. As much as I did enjoy Dragon Age 2 (A lot of the complaints are extremely valid, I disagree about the DLC, purely because I made the effort to buy the Signature Edition on PC) but it is a deeply flawed game, it made me want to put real time and effort into playing Origins, as I only got it a couple of months before DA2's release and didn't get much time into it, and I have no urge to play DA2 again, or it's DLC.

The Witcher 2, however, drew me in from the very start. I had NOT played the original, nor heard of the story, and purely went on any footage I saw and the urge to play a new RPG. While I did put it down about halfway into Chapter 1 because of it being a bit temperamental on my PC, I re-downloaded it after the new patch and have since put over 20 hours into it, playing a lot each day. Each time I learn something new, I get deeply invested in it. The characters all have something to them, you want to learn more. Not to mention the story arcs in such a vast way, rather than other games. The combat is another thing that keeps me there, it feels hands on and the swords themselves feel the best out of any game I've played recently. I've even been watching a playthrough, watching the different side of the game play out, and plan to watch another one once I finish that. And even then, I'll probably play through again myself, making sure to choose differently than I did the first time around. Hell, I can't wait for the new DLC and for achievements to get fixed on Steam. I even gave it a vote for best RPG and best Game in the Golden Joysticks this year.

I'm going to buy the translations of the Witcher books and I'll continue to play this. I may even buy the first game and play through it before I start my second playthrough of this.

This certainly isn't the talk of a game that is "overrated." It may not be your cup of team, but it certainly is some peoples. Some of you guys need to learn that your opinion is that you don't like the game, not that it's a bad game. Also, liking a game, doesn't make it a good game. They're both exclusive of each other and you need to look at things objectively and subjectively, with and without your own feelings clouding judgements.

This blog is about as good as DA2 is. And by that I mean it's stupid, poorly thought out, shallow, repeats itself, aggravates intelligent people who have taste and ends with a giant fat man bemoaning the failure of something or other who then griefs his audience until it's over.

old school pc rpg nerd is full of shit

People who feel the need to point by point defend the Witcher 2 against this one man's opinion make me feel sad.

Still, they're better then the "He's a fucking troll who loves DA2 and hates Witcher because it's a better game" people. Jesus christ.

Videogames.

I don't know why I'm even posting this, but I guess I feel the need to contribute to the Witcher 2 discussion in some small way if only to give my complicated time with this game a sense of closure and I can move on with my life.

I don't even feel like going into much detail about what I thought of the game, frankly because I don't actually care enough about the game nor can I be bothered to get into a prolonged conversation with one of the legion of unwavering supporters this game has now.

I will say though that I agree with many of the issues brought up in the first post. Looking back on my experience with Witcher 2, I think the main thing I will remember from it is that chronic dull headache that I felt during most of my time with the game, as I navigated from one source of frustration to another and another and another. Awkward and bizzare are the two descriptors that constantly rang in my head as I encountered this game's inscrutable writing and many many misguided design choices. I admit that the game world looks very nice but even that was significantly tainted for me firstly by the bad character and facial animations, and furthermore by the relentless and confused backtracking that I had to do in said beautiful environments.

I will conclude by saying that I respect CD Projekt for being uncompromising in their vision for this very specific and unique product. Clearly a lot of very skilled and talented people have put much time and effort into making this game. And I know that this game is heralded as a beacon of hope for a dying breed of big PC releases by its many vocal hardcore fans.

But me personally? If Witcher 2 is really the alternative to the likes of BioWare and Bethesda, who have apparently abandoned their hardcore PC roots and are now making dumbed-down kids' games and pandering to the dudebro console crowd, then I will gladly take my place in the latter camp as one of the simpletons.

@Egge said:

Although your comment leaves any possible argumentation entirely implicit, I would assume that you sense a contradiction at work here.

dude, shut up. this is a videogame forum.

@Management said:

@Eggesaid:

unbalanced skill system (resulting in extremely uneven difficulty),

I have only played the game through one time, so I can't say for certain, but I had no problems with my combat and alchemy build, with a dash of magic in there. Quen is kinda unbalanced though.

@Egge said:

stupid boss fights with one-hit kills and QTEs,

I thought the boss fights were good, and no one could one-hit kill you, if so, you should have gotten some better armor, and maybe leveled up more? The QTE's was unnecessary yes, but they only kicked in when the boss was nearly dead, and it was there just to give the player a grand finale at the end of the fight.

@Egge said:

sluggish combat controls

Did we play two different games? the controls were completely accurate and it was a breeze rolling around on the battlefield.

@Egge said:

confusing maze-like level design with lots of bland corridors

I did not get lost once during the entire game, and there are only on a few occasions that the game takes you into corridors. The game is mostly completely open.@Egge said:

a needlessly cluttered interface

The interface could have been better, I'll give you that. But it was never a problem for me. maybe a minor minus to the game overall. Also, if you played The Witcher 1 first, you would have known how big of an improvement the new interface is.

@Egge said:

plenty of boring fetch assignments

There is not a single RPG ever that does not feature a fetch quest. And there were very few of them in the game I felt.

@Egge said:

imprecise quest markers and logs

When a quest had a marker it was accurate, and when there was no quest marker, and the log was not good enough, you were either supposed to talk to someone and get more info, or wander around trying to find it. If you payed attention the game actually explained this during the first chapter.

@Egge said:

a poorly introduced game world as well as longwinded dialogue which never manages to imbue the game's wooden characters with enough life to make the player fully invested in The Witcher's byzantine storyline with all its unpronounceable factions, vaguely defined nation states and morally reprehensible kings and queens.

In case you did not know, this is the second game in The Witcher franchise. Maybe you noticed the big fat "2" on the box and title screen? Long dialogue is a good thing in my book. The characters in The Witcher universe are full of life. The fact that both factions are in the gray area is what makes The Witcher, The Witcher. The game is all about though decisions and a story in a shady gray area. The path of a Witcher is to be politically neutral. But you are forced to take sides. The kings and queens are once again, supposed to be reprehensible, they all want power.

The nations and the world is vague in the game and I can see that this is a problem for those who have not read the book. They should have taken time explaining the world a bit more.

@Egge said:

but so far that other deeply flawed RPG, Dragon Age 2, remains my favorite mainstream entry in this genre in 2011.

I have taken you seriously up to this point, but this is just, WHAT?!

You sir are followed for this amazing reassuring post.

@Management: I was about to write something on this ... but your post was perfect, gj there :)

Normal dude playing video games says: obvious troll is obvious. More at nine.

To steal a term from the Fighting Game Community, Exposed.

Look everybody!!! It is another "Hey you guys know that well reviewed and beloved game?  It is bad and you are a stupid retard for liking it." thread.  
I love these things.  
I don't care for the Gears of War franchise.   Should I start a thread about how everyone who loves those games are mentally incompetent sheeple and only love them because the Nazi Propaganda like gaming media tells them they should?  I could just respect that everyone has different taste in games but that wouldn't be fun. 

Witcher 1 came highly recommended but I was very disappointed by it so I don't expect Witcher 2 to blow my mind.

@LamboP said:

linear story paths and branches

Linear... branches?

@DeeGee said:

People who feel the need to point by point defend the Witcher 2 against this one man's opinion make me feel sad.

Still, they're better then the "He's a fucking troll who loves DA2 and hates Witcher because it's a better game" people. Jesus christ.

Videogames.

I know this is an old post, but oh man! People getting super-pissed at Egge, even though his knowledge of CRPGs is huge. God damn, these comments are mean.

@GreggD: Well, I sure hope people feel the need to defend Witcher 2 from me; that would be a great compliment and acknowledgement indeed. Also, I am the guy who likes DA2 and isn't too fond of the Witcher; so merely stating that fact is not inaccurate by any means. And being knowledgeable about CRPGs is never enough in and of itself to warrant respect.

The only problem I have is the labelling of me as a "troll" just because a lot of people don't agree with me. The idea that expressing a minority opinion is the same thing as lying about your real preferences in order to provoke some kind of stupid fake debate shows a failure of imagination which frankly scares the crap out of me. If people have such preconceived notions going into a discussion, there's clearly no hope for civilization.

@Egge: I wouldn't feel so bad. Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I know you're not a troll, own a copy of The Witcher and TW2 on GOG, and plan on picking up the GotY edition of DA2 (assuming there will be one) whenever that happens. I like to broaden my gaming horizons as much as possible. That's also the reason I bought Darklands on GOG today. Though, I'm kinda stuck in the first city. Is there a travel option to get out of it? Again, assuming you've played that much, if any of it.

That's just like, your opinion man...and I couldn't disagree more.

As long as we're resurrecting a dead topic, I'd just like to say that I completely agree with Egge's original post. I think DA2 is a case of an otherwise good game getting dragged through the mud because it wasn't what people wanted it to be, while The Witcher 2, a game which is also deeply flawed, is somehow the quintessential roleplaying experience? I don't pretend to understand why these two games got the extreme reactions that they did, but apparently a large segment of the internet believes that "DA2 is god-awful" and "The Witcher 2 is perfection" are indisputable facts. For what good it will do, I'm definitely in your camp on this one.

I disagree with everything you have said. The WItcher 2 is amazing. Have you ever played a game where choices actually matter? When have you played a game where the choices shape the entire world, not to mention the actual game that you play. You actually go to a whole different area for the entire middle portion of the game depending on a choice made in the first part of the game. How cool is that? Not even ME 2 has this kind of system, you are never forced to choose one thing over the other, you can work out every scenario exactly how you want it. The Witcher 2 actually forces you to pick one or the other and your decisions completely change the game. Not to mention the combat and...well everything else about the game is fucking awesome.

This thread is really quite funny.

lol, I just remembered this topic.

@Management said:

@Eggesaid:

unbalanced skill system (resulting in extremely uneven difficulty),

I have only played the game through one time, so I can't say for certain, but I had no problems with my combat and alchemy build, with a dash of magic in there. Quen is kinda unbalanced though.

@Egge said:

stupid boss fights with one-hit kills and QTEs,

I thought the boss fights were good, and no one could one-hit kill you, if so, you should have gotten some better armor, and maybe leveled up more? The QTE's was unnecessary yes, but they only kicked in when the boss was nearly dead, and it was there just to give the player a grand finale at the end of the fight.

@Egge said:

sluggish combat controls

Did we play two different games? the controls were completely accurate and it was a breeze rolling around on the battlefield.

@Egge said:

confusing maze-like level design with lots of bland corridors

I did not get lost once during the entire game, and there are only on a few occasions that the game takes you into corridors. The game is mostly completely open.@Egge said:

a needlessly cluttered interface

The interface could have been better, I'll give you that. But it was never a problem for me. maybe a minor minus to the game overall. Also, if you played The Witcher 1 first, you would have known how big of an improvement the new interface is.

@Egge said:

plenty of boring fetch assignments

There is not a single RPG ever that does not feature a fetch quest. And there were very few of them in the game I felt.

@Egge said:

imprecise quest markers and logs

When a quest had a marker it was accurate, and when there was no quest marker, and the log was not good enough, you were either supposed to talk to someone and get more info, or wander around trying to find it. If you payed attention the game actually explained this during the first chapter.

@Egge said:

a poorly introduced game world as well as longwinded dialogue which never manages to imbue the game's wooden characters with enough life to make the player fully invested in The Witcher's byzantine storyline with all its unpronounceable factions, vaguely defined nation states and morally reprehensible kings and queens.

In case you did not know, this is the second game in The Witcher franchise. Maybe you noticed the big fat "2" on the box and title screen? Long dialogue is a good thing in my book. The characters in The Witcher universe are full of life. The fact that both factions are in the gray area is what makes The Witcher, The Witcher. The game is all about though decisions and a story in a shady gray area. The path of a Witcher is to be politically neutral. But you are forced to take sides. The kings and queens are once again, supposed to be reprehensible, they all want power.

The nations and the world is vague in the game and I can see that this is a problem for those who have not read the book. They should have taken time explaining the world a bit more.

@Egge said:

but so far that other deeply flawed RPG, Dragon Age 2, remains my favorite mainstream entry in this genre in 2011.

I have taken you seriously up to this point, but this is just, WHAT?!

I don't need to say more. This kind gentleman expressed what I feel about this thread.

When was DA2 not utter trash? News to me.

Yes, this is all I took from your post.

@Praxis said:

As long as we're resurrecting a dead topic, I'd just like to say that I completely agree with Egge's original post. I think DA2 is a case of an otherwise good game getting dragged through the mud because it wasn't what people wanted it to be, while The Witcher 2, a game which is also deeply flawed, is somehow the quintessential roleplaying experience? I don't pretend to understand why these two games got the extreme reactions that they did, but apparently a large segment of the internet believes that "DA2 is god-awful" and "The Witcher 2 is perfection" are indisputable facts. For what good it will do, I'm definitely in your camp on this one.

what witcher 2 did wrong was a lot more forgivable than what DA2 did wrong (and i thought DA2 was a decent game, but saying that it's better than TW2 is just silly)

@Animasta: I have no interest in debating which game is better, I was merely pointing out that the public reactions to these games was hyperbolic, and that in both cases it was somewhat undeserved. I think that is what Egge was really hinting at in his blog. DA2 was not a steaming pile of whatsit, nor was Witcher 2 a shining paragon of RPG game design, but the internet would have you believe otherwise. Everyone has the right to hold a game's flaws against it, but in this case conventional wisdom has deemed that Egge should be the object of scorn and derision. His only real mistake was thinking he could get a fair shake long after public opinion had already sailed on both titles.

@Praxis said:

@Animasta: I have no interest in debating which game is better, I was merely pointing out that the public reactions to these games was hyperbolic, and that in both cases it was somewhat undeserved. I think that is what Egge was really hinting at in his blog. DA2 was not a steaming pile of whatsit, nor was Witcher 2 a shining paragon of RPG game design, but the internet would have you believe otherwise. Everyone has the right to hold a game's flaws against it, but in this case conventional wisdom has deemed that Egge should be the object of scorn and derision. His only real mistake was thinking he could get a fair shake long after public opinion had already sailed on both titles.

Plenty of people gave him a fair shake and did actually debate him.

Internet will be internet and there will always be people making blanket statements. They are easily ignored.

@Praxis said:

@Animasta: I have no interest in debating which game is better, I was merely pointing out that the public reactions to these games was hyperbolic, and that in both cases it was somewhat undeserved. I think that is what Egge was really hinting at in his blog. DA2 was not a steaming pile of whatsit, nor was Witcher 2 a shining paragon of RPG game design, but the internet would have you believe otherwise. Everyone has the right to hold a game's flaws against it, but in this case conventional wisdom has deemed that Egge should be the object of scorn and derision. His only real mistake was thinking he could get a fair shake long after public opinion had already sailed on both titles.

Plenty of people gave him a fair shake and did actually debate him.

Internet will be internet and there will always be people making blanket statements.

@Praxis said:

As long as we're resurrecting a dead topic, I'd just like to say that I completely agree with Egge's original post. I think DA2 is a case of an otherwise good game getting dragged through the mud because it wasn't what people wanted it to be, while The Witcher 2, a game which is also deeply flawed, is somehow the quintessential roleplaying experience? I don't pretend to understand why these two games got the extreme reactions that they did, but apparently a large segment of the internet believes that "DA2 is god-awful" and "The Witcher 2 is perfection" are indisputable facts. For what good it will do, I'm definitely in your camp on this one.

How is TW2 "deeply flawed"?

Aside from the bad tutorial, which has been fixed, I can't think of any. QTEs? You can turn them off. TW2 is certainly not a game that will have as broad an appeal as something like ME2, but that's not because the game is flawed. The quests that don't have quest markers are designed to be that way. To finish them you need to read your journal and explore some areas. It's fine to not like that, but the fact that it doesn't tell you _exactly_ what you need to do next is not an issue that needs patching or w/e. The lack of exposition that explains everything to you? That also comes down to taste. I like not being spoon fed everything and having to try to piece together things on my own. Which popular TV show does the same thing by introducing a crapton of characters in the first episode while barely mentioning their names? The Wire. It demands a lot from the audience, it's intentional. The pacing of the 3rd chapter is bad, but the better you understand the story the more sense the events make.

The problems people have with DA2 are different. The repetitive environments is not an artistic decision. Again, it's totally fine to not like TW2, it has a lot of things that will put some people off, but I've yet to see anyone bring up any "deep flaws".

Having finally played this game, I'd have to agree that it's just not that good of an RPG, especially considering the fact that, as was said, it's supposed to be PC-centric. Button-mashing, QTE's and a scripted camera that dramatically shakes all over the place is not a glorious return to this genre, it's just another genre mash-up made to play on the couch while bro-fisting your college roommate. The game functions as intended, but as a die-hard CRPG fan it was a helluva disappointment. It sucks to have to be so cautious these days... I can't believe a freakin word anybody says about a game anymore.