Nintenthoughts

I'm still not sure how I felt about Nintendo forgoing an E3 press conference this year, in favour of a special Nintendo Direct broadcast, but in many ways it seemed reflective of company’s position in relation to the other console manufacturers. You still occasionally see people criticising Nintendo’s console for its inferior hardware or lack of online support, but we’ve known for a long time that Nintendo are playing a very different game from Microsoft and Sony. In a way it makes sense for games enthusiasts.

This ain't your Xbox.

We already have two competitors in the market giving us higher end hardware, it seems advantageous to have an alternative competitor that is providing us with systems that are cheaper and using technology in unconventional ways. We already have two competitors providing us with lots of online multiplayer and media streaming via our consoles, it makes sense to have someone else who places greater focus on local multiplayer and connecting with people around us in other ways. At least, this looks good on paper. We’re not exactly buried in quality third-party games on Nintendo’s consoles, and inventive applications of technologies like the Wiimote or the Wii U touch pad seem few and far between. This pattern goes back to early on in the Wii’s history, where despite innovation supposedly being a cornerstone of system, it became somewhat infamous for its particular brand of “shovelware”; a collection of low budget, low quality, motion controlled-based games for the casual gaming crowd, that were often rehashing the same gameplay concepts over and over.

Project Revolution

It’s easy for us to conflate our personal opinion on these games with the opinion of the wider public, perhaps the casual crowd on the whole enjoyed these releases, but there was something a little uncomfortable about them. Not only was seeing so many drab and unimaginative titles disappointing for gamers who owned a Wii, but the primary purpose of the Wii was to welcome new people to gaming, and give those who’d never otherwise pick up a controller, a little piece of the enjoyment that this entertainment medium has brought us over the years. However reasonably or unreasonably founded it was, there was this troubling idea that many third-party companies were using the casual crowd’s limited knowledge of video games, and unfamiliarity with the industry, to exploit them into handing over money for games that weren’t that concerned about the enjoyment of the player. While I am being rather speculative here, it could be theorised that this impeded the Wii’s ability to welcome in a new gaming audience, and meant that for some players, video games were just going to be an amusing new fad until they got bored of the third-party studios’ endless mini-game collections and cheap licensed products.

Whatever the case with the shovelware, it also felt like motion control games in general didn’t progress far beyond the tech demo-style early releases. Some combination of business and game design issues came together to mean that a lot of the gameplay experiences revolving around arguably the most fundamental feature of the Wii, were shallow and derivative. Even now it remains unclear where exactly motion control games go next. The Wii was rich with first-party titles, but its lower end hardware meant it wasn’t getting the same kind of high quality third-party games we were seeing on the 360 and PS3, and the games it was getting weren’t particularly innovative. It seemed unfortunately like it was far too easy for the same thing to happen to the Wii U, and it kind of has.

Tablet Trouble

You get the sense that this thing has a lot of unexplored applications.

Where supported, being able to pull your games off of the television to play them on a tablet is a practical and useful feature for many, but there are almost no developers choosing to do something different with the Wii U’s unique controller, and in gameplay terms, it has largely just become an expensive inventory and map display system. I’d be very surprised if we see many games utilising it in a way that doesn’t just feel like more tech demos. This time round Nintendo had a potential opportunity for a different kind of leg-up on the competition though. Launching long before the other consoles of the next generation, they had a limited window in which their hardware was on the same level as Microsoft and Sony’s current consoles, in theory allowing them to release more popular cross-platform games on their system.

Either they have decided that still isn’t their strategy and have deliberately refrained from picking up a lot of those games, or they’re just unable to get the games they want. Maybe it’s a combination of the two. The Wii U library now includes Watch_Dogs, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Batman: Arkham City, and so on, but some of those bigger titles are coming out, or have come out, a significant amount of time after they’ve already been released on other consoles, and the Wii U is still far from the third-party powerhouses of the 360 and PS3. When Nintendo get a big third-party game the reaction seems to be a slightly depressing “That’s pretty good for Nintendo”.

Even the first-party games that have been a large part of the draw of Nintendo’s past few systems have been largely absent from the Wii U, and as many have identified, this has no doubt contributed to the poor sales of the machine. There’s been no 3D Mario, no Legend of Zelda, no Super Smash Bros., no Metroid, no Mario Kart, and none of the other games people expect. The absence of a casual gaming crowd on the scale we saw for the original Wii also left Nintendo in an interesting position for E3 2013. It was predictable that they were going to make announcements to fill those gaps in their first-party line-up and keep the same franchises going that they have been for years now, but what about the casual market on which their previous success hinged so strongly?

The first-party games are at least on their way.

The casual games offering at this year’s E3 seemed to be a new Wii Party and a new Wii Fit, suggesting that Nintendo believe that these, along with the announced titles from their classic franchises, will be enough to win back as many casual fans as they’re going to get, or that they’re just not as invested in building as large a casual base as they used to be. For people who love Nintendo it looks like some of those much-loved first-party titles are finally coming, with a 3D Mario, Donkey Kong, Pikmin, Super Smash Bros., Yoshi game, and Zelda: Wind Waker remake on their way, but many of these games are going to hit more than a year after launch, and I still worry about whether an entire console can be kept afloat by a bulk of first-party titles and a smattering of third-party gems. The 3DS is still getting by pretty well, and maybe the Wii U will become greatly profitable, but sometimes I'm anxious for Nintendo in the long-term.

The Nostalgia Machine

On a more personal level I’ve grown a bit estranged from them, partly because, like many others, I feel I’ve already played everything Nintendo has to offer. There’s a startling degree of polish to their games, and an unmistakable charm and nostalgia in a lot of what they produce, but it feels like there’s so much talent locked up in that studio that’s wasted remaking the same few games until the end of time. I think that’s why in recent years, I’ve been more interested in Nintendo’s returns to less well-explored franchises like Luigi’s Mansion and Pikmin, than I have been in a new Mario Kart or Zelda. Some would call Nintendo’s continual iteration on their popular titles them staying true to their roots, but in my mind it’s the opposite.

Franchises like Mario and Zelda exist in the first place because Nintendo were eager to use their child-like creativity to birth games that were original and different. As the years have rolled on it seems that in some ways they’ve turned into a very different company, and that the drive or philosophy that originally spawned these great game series has withered. The NES era was their real creative renaissance, bringing with it Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Earthbound, Kirby, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, and more. The SNES era wasn’t as ground-breaking, but we still saw new games like Pokemon, Donkey Kong Country, Mario Kart, and Star Fox. Creativity seemed to recede further with the N64, but the console played home to new 3D interpretations of their big titles, with such well-remembered games as Mario 64, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Mario Party, and Super Smash Bros. Inventive reimaginings were wearing thin by the time of the Gamecube, but it kicked off Metroid Prime, Animal Crossing, and Pikmin, and Warioware came out on the Gameboy Advance in the same generation.

We're a long way from this.

How many new game ideas did Nintendo’s developers have in the Wii era that didn’t seem like they were just aimed at casual gamers? How many games for the Wii U feel like they’re genuinely something new at all? Breaking down Nintendo’s history and looking back, I think it becomes clear just how dry the creativity well has become. Even focusing on new games in their existing franchises, they seem to be less and less ambitious with the new ideas they have for series like Mario and Zelda. This is a shame, because part of the wonder of these games to begin with, was in the discovery of these fantastic new worlds Nintendo were laying out before us.

We Would Like to Play

Don’t get me wrong, in an ideal scenario, with all the disposable income, I’d probably buy more Nintendo games and play a good chunk of them, and I still enjoy dipping into a Pokemon here and an Animal Crossing there. But I see Nintendo taking an approach to their games which is upsetting. They’re fostering a combination of repetitive first-party games, and third-party games that neither match up to the AAA releases of the other consoles, nor use Nintendo’s hardware in an interesting fashion.

I think there are people who because they don’t like what Nintendo is doing, think Nintendo will fail, or downright want them to. I think there have been people who have judged far too quickly that they definitely know the fate of the Wii U and who it does or does not appeal to. I don’t want to be one of those people. As I said, Nintendo can provide us a potentially worthwhile alternative to the other companies, competition is always important in the console market, there’s still something great about the games they make, and I can’t really predict the future of their consoles. The criticism I aim at Nintendo is not because I don’t like them, but because I want to see them play host to the best games they can. There’s also something endearing about the way Nintendo appears alongside their competition.

Maybe the reality is that Nintendo games exist the way they do because of the cold, calculated decisions of a bunch of businessmen, but they’re in some ways the underdog of the console industry. I love the work that’s done by Sony and Microsoft, but on occasion it feels like you’ve got a software manufacturer on one side, an electronics manufacturer on the other side, and Nintendo are just this humble group of ex-toymakers who want to create games that can make people smile and bring friends together. I hope that’s something those guys keep getting to do for a long time to come, even if they might never be quite the franchise creators they once were. Thanks for reading.

31 Comments
31 Comments
Posted by mrfluke

i believe the GB guys and pachter said that nintendo has something like a billion dollars (actual billion dollars, not a generalization) in reserve. so they are not going anywhere.

i think they have another console in the works, personally i think they should make a vita like phone device where its a handheld first as that seems where they can still find good success, and then have an apple tv like receiver for where you can beam your games to your television for that console like experience.

actually wouldn't surprise me if this is the next thing nintendo is working on, as it kind of seems like the next step after WiiU

Edited by MEATBALL

I completely disagree that Nintendo's releases are merely repetitive and lack creativity, it seems like whenever Nintendo innovate with a game or series people simply ignore it if it isn't to their tastes. It seems that people who don't enjoy the majority of Nintendo's output put it down to a lack of creativity on Nintendo's part, but I think that's rubbish, personally. Nintendo have continued to be one of the most creative developers/publishers in the industry. Furthermore, it seems that so many people want Nintendo to innovate and change up its approach to its various series, but then when they do people all over complain that it's not what they wanted from the series. Paper Mario Sticker Star is a fantastic title, for instance, (though it does suffer from boss battles that involve trial and error puzzles) that takes quite a different approach to the series and yet it has been largely ignored or passed over because it's not Thousand Year Door Redux. It seems noone wants Nintendo to keep making the same games...until they don't make the same game that they want (like a new WarioWare, for instance).

Nintendo do have some franchises that are iterative, but it also continually innovates and attempts to approach many of its series from different angles, and yet for some people nothing they do is enough unless the game is completely and totally different, seemingly to the point where it might be unrecognisable. It's not enough that Skyward Sword managed to finally incorporate legitimate motion control into a core game, or that its structure extended gameplay typically reserved for traditional dungeons into environments outside of those areas. It's not enough that with Super Mario 3D Land Nintendo released yet another fresh take on Mario platforming (though admittedly I had hoped to see the first 3D Mario released for WiiU be yet another new design).

Show me a publisher with a stronger line-up than Nintendo this year. I can't think of another publisher that matches up, honestly. Sony, perhaps (thanks to games like The Last of Us, Rain and Puppeteer)? Their software support for the WiiU in the first half of this year has been largely abysmal, but I think it's far too easy for people to lose sight of just what Nintendo have been releasing this year and will be releasing over the next 6 months when looking across the 3DS and WiiU.

It's okay if Nintendo's lineup isn't to your taste, but far too many try to conflate a disinterest in Nintendo's lineup with the idea that it's lacking releases or that there is a lack of creativity, perhaps in some effort to sound authoritative on the matter. Like just about any publisher, there are some titles or areas where that might be the case, but in spite of those cases I think Nintendo still continually prove to be one of the most creative companies in the industry.

Edited by Slag

@gamer_152: great blog, I feel basically the same way. Although I must admit I am concerned that the 1st party titles on the way for the WiiU seem unusually derivative instead of innovative as I'm accustomed with Nintendo games. Which is strange because the same can not be said for the 3DS.

Maybe Nintendo picked the wrong gimmick for their home console this time, which is definitely the heart of their stated strategy since late gamecube era (i.e. they don't thin they can ever win a hardware war vs larger companies so they focus on unique experiences). It seems like they don't have many ideas on how to use its' capabilities unlike 3d.

My hope is Nintendo is the first of the three to embrace VR like the Oculus Rift, because I bet they will figure out how to make it awesome.

Posted by McGhee

Nintendo hasn't amazed me since Mario 64. Kind of sad.

Posted by Video_Game_King

You say that third party exploitation of casual gamers kept them from getting into video games more, but I feel like that may be an overly easy solution. I doubt a lot of casual gamers would have gotten deep into the hobby in the first place. I don't know how to phrase it without coming off as condescending and elitist, but casual gamers really don't play video games all that often. They'll play Wii Sports or Super Smash Bros. every now and then and that's about it.

Posted by Darji

@meatball: Not even Sony lost so much value then Nintendo did.

As for Innovation. 3D land looks like it was at first a 3DS sequel nothing else. Nintendo is not innovative. Gimmick controls are not innovative. And Nintendo themselves even admits that they had no Wii Sports like game for the Wii U yet and that they underestimated the development of HD games. They are a whole generation behind in terms of services, quality and hardware and they will not be able to catch up.

The best is to get rid of Iwata and silence Miyamoto and let younger people take over. Also they should consider go only handheld even their are also struggling there in the West. Or the best choice would be going 3rd party. They still can "innovate" gaming that way if you think that these games are innovative. They are just have no knowledge of doing modern hardware.

Edited by mrfluke

@darji: wasnt it a thing that nintendo has a billion dollars in reserve in their "war chest"? pachter and the GB crew said something along these lines.

i think they got one more hardware launch in them, i see something along the lines of an iphone + apple tv combo, where its a handheld (as i agree with you in that they should go handheld next time) , but you can stream your games to your tv, that way you still can have a console experience with nintendo games.

Edited by Darji

@mrfluke said:

@darji: wasnt it a thing that nintendo has a billion dollars in reserve in their "war chest"? pachter and the GB crew said something along these lines.

i think they got one more hardware launch in them, i see something along the lines of an iphone + apple tv combo, where its a handheld (as i agree with you in that they should go handheld next time) , but you can stream your games to your tv, that way you still can have a console experience with nintendo games.

Pachter also said they have lost all the money they earned with the DS and Wii already. At the moment they are trying to buy partnerships like they did with Sega for example but it is not enough. The Wii U really could be the end of Nintendo on the hardware market. And despite the success in Japan with the 3DS it is struggling and selling under expectations in the west. the IOS phone market is just to big to actually justify handhelds anymore. Look at Nintendo land all these games would have been great IOS games but as console games they are way to overpriced.

It would be the best for Nintendo and the industry to go 3rd party. They would make much more money that way since they only can concentrate on making games without much restrictions. They even could still develop gimmick controller if they want to. But hardware is just impossible for Nintendo as they are right now.

Posted by Hailinel

@meatball said:

It's okay if Nintendo's lineup isn't to your taste, but far too many try to conflate a disinterest in Nintendo's lineup with the idea that it's lacking releases or that there is a lack of creativity, perhaps in some effort to sound authoritative on the matter. Like just about any publisher, there are some titles or areas where that might be the case, but in spite of those cases I think Nintendo still continually prove to be one of the most creative companies in the industry.

Pretty much this. It always baffles me how many people seem to confuse Nintendo games simply not being to their taste with Nintendo making horrible iterative nostalgia cash-ins. And when they do release a new IP or something that hasn't been seen before, people complain that they can't play it on something other than a Nintendo console. Or that Nintendo should just stop making hardware and go third-party, ignoring the fact that the reason Nintendo is able to make games of the quality that they do is because they make their own hardware.

People talk about Nintendo as if they're the odd company out, but I feel that there will continue to be a place for them, particularly so long as Sony and MIcrosoft continue to compete by offering experiences that are near identical to each other.

Edited by mrfluke

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji: wasnt it a thing that nintendo has a billion dollars in reserve in their "war chest"? pachter and the GB crew said something along these lines.

i think they got one more hardware launch in them, i see something along the lines of an iphone + apple tv combo, where its a handheld (as i agree with you in that they should go handheld next time) , but you can stream your games to your tv, that way you still can have a console experience with nintendo games.

Pachter also said they have lost all the money they earned with the DS and Wii already. At the moment they are trying to buy partnerships like they did with Sega for example but it is not enough. The Wii U really could be the end of Nintendo on the hardware market. And despite the success in Japan with the 3DS it is struggling and selling under expectations in the west. the IOS phone market is just to big to actually justify handhelds anymore. Look at Nintendo land all these games would have been great IOS games but as console games they are way to overpriced.

It would be the best for Nintendo and the industry to go 3rd party. They would make much more money that way since they only can concentrate on making games without much restrictions. They even could still develop gimmick controller if they want to. But hardware is just impossible for Nintendo as they are right now.

thats what everyone says, and they are not wrong as the nintendo games would dominate the family games market.

but the old guys like yamauchi that still ultimately run nintendo i feel still have enough hubris for enforce one more attempt at hardware before becoming just software only though.

Posted by Hailinel

@mrfluke said:

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji: wasnt it a thing that nintendo has a billion dollars in reserve in their "war chest"? pachter and the GB crew said something along these lines.

i think they got one more hardware launch in them, i see something along the lines of an iphone + apple tv combo, where its a handheld (as i agree with you in that they should go handheld next time) , but you can stream your games to your tv, that way you still can have a console experience with nintendo games.

Pachter also said they have lost all the money they earned with the DS and Wii already. At the moment they are trying to buy partnerships like they did with Sega for example but it is not enough. The Wii U really could be the end of Nintendo on the hardware market. And despite the success in Japan with the 3DS it is struggling and selling under expectations in the west. the IOS phone market is just to big to actually justify handhelds anymore. Look at Nintendo land all these games would have been great IOS games but as console games they are way to overpriced.

It would be the best for Nintendo and the industry to go 3rd party. They would make much more money that way since they only can concentrate on making games without much restrictions. They even could still develop gimmick controller if they want to. But hardware is just impossible for Nintendo as they are right now.

thats what everyone says, and they are not wrong as the nintendo games would dominate the family games market.

but the old guys like yamauchi that still ultimately run nintendo i feel still have enough hubris for enforce one more attempt at hardware before becoming just software only though.

Yamauchi is a shareholder, but he's not a board member anymore.

Edited by mrfluke

@hailinel said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji: wasnt it a thing that nintendo has a billion dollars in reserve in their "war chest"? pachter and the GB crew said something along these lines.

i think they got one more hardware launch in them, i see something along the lines of an iphone + apple tv combo, where its a handheld (as i agree with you in that they should go handheld next time) , but you can stream your games to your tv, that way you still can have a console experience with nintendo games.

Pachter also said they have lost all the money they earned with the DS and Wii already. At the moment they are trying to buy partnerships like they did with Sega for example but it is not enough. The Wii U really could be the end of Nintendo on the hardware market. And despite the success in Japan with the 3DS it is struggling and selling under expectations in the west. the IOS phone market is just to big to actually justify handhelds anymore. Look at Nintendo land all these games would have been great IOS games but as console games they are way to overpriced.

It would be the best for Nintendo and the industry to go 3rd party. They would make much more money that way since they only can concentrate on making games without much restrictions. They even could still develop gimmick controller if they want to. But hardware is just impossible for Nintendo as they are right now.

thats what everyone says, and they are not wrong as the nintendo games would dominate the family games market.

but the old guys like yamauchi that still ultimately run nintendo i feel still have enough hubris for enforce one more attempt at hardware before becoming just software only though.

Yamauchi is a shareholder, but he's not a board member anymore.

i know pachter has a spotty track record, but i believe Yamauchi is still dominant shareholder though?

still think there is hubris at nintendo to try hardware one more time though before throwing the towel in and just doing software only..

also did not realize miyamoto is so high up the food chain, that explains why he's not that directly making games anymore.

Edited by Darji

@mrfluke said:

i know pachter has a spotty track record, but i believe Yamauchi is still dominant shareholder though?

still think there is hubris at nintendo to try hardware one more time though before throwing the towel in and just doing software only..

also did not realize miyamoto is so high up the food chain, that explains why he's not that directly making games anymore.

Japan works a bit differently. If you are getting useless you are getting promoted to another useless spot instead of being fired. And yeah Miyamto up there is also a part of the problem Nintendo has. Also keep in mind that even if they would try another console it could totally ruin Nintendo. If they fail that time too they are done for good. That is why it would be a better choice not to try it again.

Posted by Hailinel

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

i know pachter has a spotty track record, but i believe Yamauchi is still dominant shareholder though?

still think there is hubris at nintendo to try hardware one more time though before throwing the towel in and just doing software only..

also did not realize miyamoto is so high up the food chain, that explains why he's not that directly making games anymore.

Japan works a bit differently. If you are getting useless you are getting promoted to another useless spot instead of being fired. And yeah Miyamto up there is also a part of the problem Nintendo has. Also keep in mind that even if they would try another console it could totally ruin Nintendo. If they fail that time too they are done for good. That is why it would be a better choice not to try it again.

Darji, given your posting history, you are the last person any of the console makers should take advice from.

Edited by mrfluke

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

i know pachter has a spotty track record, but i believe Yamauchi is still dominant shareholder though?

still think there is hubris at nintendo to try hardware one more time though before throwing the towel in and just doing software only..

also did not realize miyamoto is so high up the food chain, that explains why he's not that directly making games anymore.

Japan works a bit differently. If you are getting useless you are getting promoted to another useless spot instead of being fired. And yeah Miyamto up there is also a part of the problem Nintendo has. Also keep in mind that even if they would try another console it could totally ruin Nintendo. If they fail that time too they are done for good. That is why it would be a better choice not to try it again.

and thats the question right there, If they would go software only after WIIU or go exclusively 3ds? or fully exit hardware after these 2 systems?

ultimately time will tell and we'ill see as i feel like thats the only definitive thing we can say atm.

but (this is going to sound awfully racist, not my intention) i think there is enough headstrong Japanese hubris left to give it one more go with a full effort this time rather than this halfway effort they gave with WIIU at least under the iwata regime,

but it seems the most likely of anything to happen as of right now would be that iwata will be stepping down if he doesnt step up what he's doing,

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/07/investor_approval_rating_for_satoru_iwata_drops_to_7726_precent

Posted by Darji

@mrfluke said:

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

i know pachter has a spotty track record, but i believe Yamauchi is still dominant shareholder though?

still think there is hubris at nintendo to try hardware one more time though before throwing the towel in and just doing software only..

also did not realize miyamoto is so high up the food chain, that explains why he's not that directly making games anymore.

Japan works a bit differently. If you are getting useless you are getting promoted to another useless spot instead of being fired. And yeah Miyamto up there is also a part of the problem Nintendo has. Also keep in mind that even if they would try another console it could totally ruin Nintendo. If they fail that time too they are done for good. That is why it would be a better choice not to try it again.

and thats the question right there, If they would go software only after WIIU or go exclusively 3ds? or fully exit hardware after these 2 systems?

ultimately time will tell and we'ill see as i feel like thats the only definitive thing we can say atm.

but (this is going to sound awfully racist, not my intention) i think there is enough headstrong Japanese hubris left to give it one more go with a full effort this time rather than this halfway effort they gave with WIIU.

but it seems the most likely of anything to happen as of right now would be that iwata will be stepping down.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/07/investor_approval_rating_for_satoru_iwata_drops_to_7726_precent

Yeah Nintendo probably want to go down than rather act reasonable that is what kind of company they are. And Iwata being replaced would be a huge right step into the right direction. I do not want Nintendo to leave this industry completely that why I believe they should go 3rd party. A Industry without Nintendo would be really sad but a Industry without a Nintendo console would be great in my opinion.

Oh and There is nothing racist here. No need for even considering pc.

Posted by ArbitraryWater

This is a well-written thought-piece. For my part, I can't help but acknowledge my hypocrisy that I'd like to see Nintendo do something different with their bigger franchises like Zelda and Mario but I'm also totally fine with them making another game in the style of Super Mario 3D Land since I thought that game was awesome.

I guess I'd like something a bit more... monumental? Something that immediately catches my eye and makes me go "There's my reason to buy a Wii U". They've been making subtle hints every now and again that they're going to try something different with the next Zelda game, and I'm really interested to see what that actually entails.

Edited by mrfluke

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

@darji said:

@mrfluke said:

i know pachter has a spotty track record, but i believe Yamauchi is still dominant shareholder though?

still think there is hubris at nintendo to try hardware one more time though before throwing the towel in and just doing software only..

also did not realize miyamoto is so high up the food chain, that explains why he's not that directly making games anymore.

Japan works a bit differently. If you are getting useless you are getting promoted to another useless spot instead of being fired. And yeah Miyamto up there is also a part of the problem Nintendo has. Also keep in mind that even if they would try another console it could totally ruin Nintendo. If they fail that time too they are done for good. That is why it would be a better choice not to try it again.

and thats the question right there, If they would go software only after WIIU or go exclusively 3ds? or fully exit hardware after these 2 systems?

ultimately time will tell and we'ill see as i feel like thats the only definitive thing we can say atm.

but (this is going to sound awfully racist, not my intention) i think there is enough headstrong Japanese hubris left to give it one more go with a full effort this time rather than this halfway effort they gave with WIIU.

but it seems the most likely of anything to happen as of right now would be that iwata will be stepping down.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/07/investor_approval_rating_for_satoru_iwata_drops_to_7726_precent

Yeah Nintendo probably want to go down than rather act reasonable that is what kind of company they are. And Iwata being replaced would be a huge right step into the right direction. I do not want Nintendo to leave this industry completely that why I believe they should go 3rd party. A Industry without Nintendo would be really sad but a Industry without a Nintendo console would be great in my opinion.

Oh and There is nothing racist here. No need for even considering pc.

eh you know its the internet, not to generalize, but i figured their might be a set of people that might take a look at the conversation and take what i said the wrong way.

back to the topic, on one hand you have articles like this showing that iwata seems to have gotten a wake up call http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/nintendo-ceo-we-are-blame-poor-wii-u-sales-6C10378098

but then you have articles like this that make you really wonder about nintendo's future under the iwata regime, as on one hand i agree with some of the things he states here but i disagree with some of the hubris in this article as well.

http://gamingbolt.com/satoru-iwata-downplays-nintendo-games-on-smartphones-dropping-share-prices

and then according to Riccitiello and other sources, Nintendo still has 10 billion dollars in reserves still

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-01-31-nintendo-time-for-an-intervention

Is Nintendo doomed? Not at all; as EA's CEO Riccitiello said, "Never count Nintendo out." Nintendo has over $10 billion dollars in cash and some of the very best IP in the game business. Nintendo has adjusted itself to make a profit even at a sales level that's less than half of what it was a few years ago, and with its massive bank account it could continue for many, many years on ever-dwindling sales.

so they are here to stay (at least nintendo the company is, Iwata's fate is to be determined :P),

too curious to see which pathway they will go, nintendo fascinates me the most cause of that large reserve, as to me they can potentially do a lot of wild moves with those reserves and come right back in favor,

Posted by BestUsernameEver

@mrfluke said:

i believe the GB guys and pachter said that nintendo has something like a billion dollars (actual billion dollars, not a generalization) in reserve. so they are not going anywhere.

i think they have another console in the works, personally i think they should make a vita like phone device where its a handheld first as that seems where they can still find good success, and then have an apple tv like receiver for where you can beam your games to your television for that console like experience.

actually wouldn't surprise me if this is the next thing nintendo is working on, as it kind of seems like the next step after WiiU

I wish them well, and honestly think Nintendo is here to stay, but a billion, or even a few billion can still sink tech companies with no clear business path sadly.

Posted by mrfluke

@mrfluke said:

i believe the GB guys and pachter said that nintendo has something like a billion dollars (actual billion dollars, not a generalization) in reserve. so they are not going anywhere.

i think they have another console in the works, personally i think they should make a vita like phone device where its a handheld first as that seems where they can still find good success, and then have an apple tv like receiver for where you can beam your games to your television for that console like experience.

actually wouldn't surprise me if this is the next thing nintendo is working on, as it kind of seems like the next step after WiiU

I wish them well, and honestly think Nintendo is here to stay, but a billion, or even a few billion can still sink tech companies with no clear business path sadly.

thats very true,

for what its worth, seems nintendo has 10 billion in reserve, and Iwata supposedly has a long term plan.

Posted by TooWalrus

Remember how the NES, SNES, N64, & Gamecube all had attachments that would let me play my Gameboy games on the big screen?

...I'd buy a WiiU if they'd let me play my 3DS games on it. The thing's practically just a big DS anyway- why not? You'd lose 3D, I suppose.

Posted by MideonNViscera

@mcghee said:

Nintendo hasn't amazed me since Mario 64. Kind of sad.

Ocarina of Time was underwhelming for you?

Posted by Tesla

My waning interest in Nintendo products is due to the fact that I just don't see a whole lot of effort being put forth in anything new or exciting. I don't mind them going back to the well on existing franchises, but I wish they would understand that they have more than Mario, Metroid, and Zelda.

A new Earthbound would instantly gain them so much favor in the gaming community. A console Fire Emblem or Golden Sun? They've got the Fatal Frame franchise now don't they? Why not use that fancy tablet controller for a new one of those? Or, dare I say, create a new IP?

All I see them put out now are different games with different mechanics, but they all have that same kid friendly, cartoonish look and feel. There's nothing wrong with this, but when all your games are like that it just comes across as lazy and timid. It's easy, they know it works, and they know they won't offend anyone.

Edited by Slag

@hailinel said:

@meatball said:

It's okay if Nintendo's lineup isn't to your taste, but far too many try to conflate a disinterest in Nintendo's lineup with the idea that it's lacking releases or that there is a lack of creativity, ...

Pretty much this. It always baffles me how many people seem to confuse Nintendo games simply not being to their taste with Nintendo making horrible iterative nostalgia

cash-ins. ....

I think you guys are reading motives into this criticism that isn't necessarily true.

Bottom line is Nintendo is not moving WiiU units. WiiU last I looked had only 3 million sold worldwide, I really don't think that all be chalked up to public no longer caring for Nintendo style games. If it were I think we'd see those kinds of numbers reflected in poor 3DS sales but we see the opposite. So clearly this is a WiiU specific problem, not a public manufacturing reasons to dislike Nintendo problem.

But what is different is you have some great titles on the 3DS that really creatively utilize the unique capabilities of that machine. They weren't there at the launch, but once they showed up it started to go.

But when you look at the WiiU titles, a lot of them look like alright games (or could be once they actually release) they don't look like they are doing much with that gamepad which give a samey kind of feel to what we just had on the Wii. Which kind of feels like nostalgia grab,although I really think it's more related to with Nintendo not realizing the capabilities of their own system.

I look at games like Donkey Kong : Tropical Freeze or Super Mario 3d World, the new Smash Bros, Pikmin 3 etc and I don't see any thing that says "this is why we made the WiiU have a gamepad". or "this is why you should buy our technically underpowered system because we provide a unique tactile experience you can't get on PS4 or Xbox1".

Given their history with third party guys it's pretty going to be up to Nintendo to show us why the Gamepad is great, and at least so far they haven't to most people yet. I hope they do. The gaming world is a better place when Nintendo is going well.

Edited by Hailinel

@slag said:

@hailinel said:

@meatball said:

It's okay if Nintendo's lineup isn't to your taste, but far too many try to conflate a disinterest in Nintendo's lineup with the idea that it's lacking releases or that there is a lack of creativity, ...

Pretty much this. It always baffles me how many people seem to confuse Nintendo games simply not being to their taste with Nintendo making horrible iterative nostalgia

cash-ins. ....

I think you guys are reading motives into this criticism that isn't necessarily true.

I wouldn't say so. Not when people in this very thread are making such criticisms on top of actively wishing Nintendo go third party or expecting them to simply die from corporate stupidity (despite the fact that no one in this thread is an expert in the business practices of large corporations, Japanese or otherwise).

Posted by mrfluke

@hailinel said:

@slag said:

@hailinel said:

@meatball said:

It's okay if Nintendo's lineup isn't to your taste, but far too many try to conflate a disinterest in Nintendo's lineup with the idea that it's lacking releases or that there is a lack of creativity, ...

Pretty much this. It always baffles me how many people seem to confuse Nintendo games simply not being to their taste with Nintendo making horrible iterative nostalgia

cash-ins. ....

I think you guys are reading motives into this criticism that isn't necessarily true.

I wouldn't say so. Not when people in this very thread are making such criticisms on top of actively wishing Nintendo go third party or expecting them to simply die from corporate stupidity (despite the fact that no one in this thread is an expert in the business practices of large corporations, Japanese or otherwise).

yea, i dont think i agree with the remarks that nintendo should go third party or thats their definite future. as i disagree with said user you're most likely referencing in these comments (wont mention his name for the sake of courtesy, but im sure you know who im talking about) .

(also i agree none of us is no Michael pachter analyst or business guy)

but based on the information thats out on the internets though . to me what seems likely, is if iwata doesn't surge up sales, he's gonna get let go. but he apparently got a wake up call and has a long term plan.

the doom and gloom about how nintendo the company will leave hardware is supremely overstated, you dont have 10 billion in reserves and not at least give it one more go at hardware (especially with the new tech thats available now compared to when the wii launched)

and you know thinking about it, nintendo really has the hardest job of the 3 companies, as the generalization is that their audience was largely mainstream casual people who bought wii due to its "shiny" appeal . so its a very hard job to convince that audience to come convert over

Edited by EXTomar

It might have been a product of the time (real world pressures, other games, etc) but I personally got bored of Ocarina of Time and never actually finished it. On the other hand I thought Windwaker was boring but whimsical and it had a hook of "What is really going on?" I hit every island and completed the game.

So sure I wouldn't mind more of the classic stuff but put some "whimsy" into it please.

Posted by Slag

@hailinel said:

@slag said:

I think you guys are reading motives into this criticism that isn't necessarily true.

I wouldn't say so. Not when people in this very thread are making such criticisms on top of actively wishing Nintendo go third party or expecting them to simply die from corporate stupidity (despite the fact that no one in this thread is an expert in the business practices of large corporations, Japanese or otherwise).

(Hey cool notifications are working for me now!)

I'm sure there are people who are doing exactly what you pointed out, but they are aberrations. I don't think the majority of the criticisms of lack of creativity and nostalgia grabs claims are purely coming from that the haters. Nintendo after all has really poor sales numbers so far. The big picture which unfortunately seems to me to be indifference when it comes to the WiiU

The public may be really mad about the Xbox One but at least they are aware of it. I'm not sure America at large still even knows the WiiU is a separate console from the Wii.

I won't claim to be an expert in Corporate business practices, let alone Japanese ones, but I don't think that means there isn't some truth to some the concerns/criticisms (for lack of a better term) "hardcore gamers" seem to have about the WiiU. People are tossing around the nostalgia claims and such I think that's because they haven't yet shown the public the kind of new gameplay that only the WiiU can produce (whatever that is).

Posted by Hailinel

@slag said:

@hailinel said:

@slag said:

I think you guys are reading motives into this criticism that isn't necessarily true.

I wouldn't say so. Not when people in this very thread are making such criticisms on top of actively wishing Nintendo go third party or expecting them to simply die from corporate stupidity (despite the fact that no one in this thread is an expert in the business practices of large corporations, Japanese or otherwise).

(Hey cool notifications are working for me now!)

I'm sure there are people who are doing exactly what you pointed out, but they are aberrations. I don't think the majority of the criticisms of lack of creativity and nostalgia grabs claims are purely coming from that the haters. Nintendo after all has really poor sales numbers so far. The big picture which unfortunately seems to me to be indifference when it comes to the WiiU

The public may be really mad about the Xbox One but at least they are aware of it. I'm not sure America at large still even knows the WiiU is a separate console from the Wii.

I won't claim to be an expert in Corporate business practices, let alone Japanese ones, but I don't think that means there isn't some truth to some the concerns/criticisms (for lack of a better term) "hardcore gamers" seem to have about the WiiU. People are tossing around the nostalgia claims and such I think that's because they haven't yet shown the public the kind of new gameplay that only the WiiU can produce (whatever that is).

Again, I wouldn't say so. Certainly not when guys in the press like Jeff have made reductive statements regarding Nintendo basically being in the habit of packaging and selling people their childhoods (an argument he's made multiple times on Giant Bombcasts). Such comments effectively reduce these games to being pure nostalgia cash grabs, which while certainly a factor in some instances is almost never the entire case. And he was making these comments during the Wii era, long before the Wii U was ever a thing to discuss. The same goes for when a member of the staff dismissively states that "Your first [Game] in [X Series] is always your favorite," which again is reductive bullshit.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Wii U specifically. People made these comments before the 3DS sales picked up. They made these comments during the Wii era. They made these comments when they thought that the DS was a joke and that the PSP would reign as the new portable god. It's the same fucking comments every generation.

Edited by Slag

@hailinel said:

@slag said:

@hailinel said:

@slag said:

I think you guys are reading motives into this criticism that isn't necessarily true.

I wouldn't say so. Not when people in this very thread are making such criticisms on top of actively wishing Nintendo go third party or expecting them to simply die from corporate stupidity (despite the fact that no one in this thread is an expert in the business practices of large corporations, Japanese or otherwise).

(Hey cool notifications are working for me now!)

I'm sure there are people who are doing exactly what you pointed out, but they are aberrations. I don't think the majority of the criticisms of lack of creativity and nostalgia grabs claims are purely coming from that the haters. Nintendo after all has really poor sales numbers so far. The big picture which unfortunately seems to me to be indifference when it comes to the WiiU

The public may be really mad about the Xbox One but at least they are aware of it. I'm not sure America at large still even knows the WiiU is a separate console from the Wii.

I won't claim to be an expert in Corporate business practices, let alone Japanese ones, but I don't think that means there isn't some truth to some the concerns/criticisms (for lack of a better term) "hardcore gamers" seem to have about the WiiU. People are tossing around the nostalgia claims and such I think that's because they haven't yet shown the public the kind of new gameplay that only the WiiU can produce (whatever that is).

Again, I wouldn't say so. Certainly not when guys in the press like Jeff have made reductive statements regarding Nintendo basically being in the habit of packaging and selling people their childhoods (an argument he's made multiple times on Giant Bombcasts). Such comments effectively reduce these games to being pure nostalgia cash grabs, which while certainly a factor in some instances is almost never the entire case. And he was making these comments during the Wii era, long before the Wii U was ever a thing to discuss. The same goes for when a member of the staff dismissively states that "Your first [Game] in [X Series] is always your favorite," which again is reductive bullshit.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Wii U specifically. People made these comments before the 3DS sales picked up. They made these comments during the Wii era. They made these comments when they thought that the DS was a joke and that the PSP would reign as the new portable god. It's the same fucking comments every generation.

you know what, reading what you wrote 3-4 times and thinking about it some more, I think you convinced me. When you're wrong, you're wrong and there's no point in dragging it out. You argued your case better than I did mine. I concede the argument to you.

really have nothing else to add, but figured I ought to at least acknowledge that.

Posted by DeF

@meatball said:

I completely disagree that Nintendo's releases are merely repetitive and lack creativity, it seems like whenever Nintendo innovate with a game or series people simply ignore it if it isn't to their tastes. It seems that people who don't enjoy the majority of Nintendo's output put it down to a lack of creativity on Nintendo's part, but I think that's rubbish, personally. Nintendo have continued to be one of the most creative developers/publishers in the industry. Furthermore, it seems that so many people want Nintendo to innovate and change up its approach to its various series, but then when they do people all over complain that it's not what they wanted from the series. Paper Mario Sticker Star is a fantastic title, for instance, (though it does suffer from boss battles that involve trial and error puzzles) that takes quite a different approach to the series and yet it has been largely ignored or passed over because it's not Thousand Year Door Redux. It seems noone wants Nintendo to keep making the same games...until they don't make the same game that they want (like a new WarioWare, for instance).

Nintendo do have some franchises that are iterative, but it also continually innovates and attempts to approach many of its series from different angles, and yet for some people nothing they do is enough unless the game is completely and totally different, seemingly to the point where it might be unrecognisable. It's not enough that Skyward Sword managed to finally incorporate legitimate motion control into a core game, or that its structure extended gameplay typically reserved for traditional dungeons into environments outside of those areas. It's not enough that with Super Mario 3D Land Nintendo released yet another fresh take on Mario platforming (though admittedly I had hoped to see the first 3D Mario released for WiiU be yet another new design).

Show me a publisher with a stronger line-up than Nintendo this year. I can't think of another publisher that matches up, honestly. Sony, perhaps (thanks to games like The Last of Us, Rain and Puppeteer)? Their software support for the WiiU in the first half of this year has been largely abysmal, but I think it's far too easy for people to lose sight of just what Nintendo have been releasing this year and will be releasing over the next 6 months when looking across the 3DS and WiiU.

It's okay if Nintendo's lineup isn't to your taste, but far too many try to conflate a disinterest in Nintendo's lineup with the idea that it's lacking releases or that there is a lack of creativity, perhaps in some effort to sound authoritative on the matter. Like just about any publisher, there are some titles or areas where that might be the case, but in spite of those cases I think Nintendo still continually prove to be one of the most creative companies in the industry.

So much this. It's baffling how many people don't realize that they're putting out a lot of different stuff that's not called Mario, for example.