huser

@SpaceInsomniac said:

@Clubvodka said:

Probably 90% of the people that are complaining don't have 10% of the skills to make a game of Mass Effect 3's scale.

So no one should ever criticize anything unless they have the ability to do a better job? This is such a ridiculous thing to suggest, and yet I continue to see in all sorts of internet debates. Why is that?

@Clubvodka said:

It's this false sense of entitlement that doesn't happen in with other media/in other mediums.

This is clearly false. Fan reactions constantly shape TV Shows, movie sequels, books, albums, and pretty much any other form of media.

Although I do disagree with you, there are plenty of better points that you could be making here.

I agree it's the most inane charge to levy. You can't do better so why are you complaining? So...then do you buy just about EVERY piece of everything you can because the producers can make it better than anything you could do? Since you apparently aren't in a position to judge you had better accept everything. Ludicrous and I really don't know how anyone (especially the folks that think they got "it" over the unwashed masses that don't get Bioware's ending) even remotely self aware could make that kind of argument.

The second one is somehow even MORE ludicrous. Fan reaction doesn't affect other mediums? So then Nikki and Paulo were running around Lost a lot more than I recall? Sherlock effing Holmes didn't come back from the dead? Guess what, these "artists" are trying to sell stuff. If they want to continue to do that, they damn well better cater to their entitled audience or they will find someone else who will.

@TheHT said:

@huser said:

You can assume that's what the Reapers are doing because they already have what they need: The Citadel. They were just chillin when they were attacked. If the allied forces retreat then it's back to harvesting humans to increase their numbers, as is their primary tactic.

Allied forces knowing details about the Crucible? Javik doesn't know what it does either. No one knows what it does. Or do you mean the Reapers knowing about the Crucible for at least 2 cycles? Why? In Javik's cycle the Citadel was taken early on, and if I recall correctly the Crucible was only actually built in the current cycle.

The activation of the Crucible is their best bet at destroying the Reapers. Once it's activated, the situation is out of the fleets hands, and their all or nothing attack was strictly speaking a success. If it in fact carries a destructive quality that would also affect all ships in the area, then they're all dead for nothing. Do you think they think they need to be directly beside the Crucible in order for it to be effective, or to draw the Reapers in?

Potentially throwing their lives away by sticking around when the Crucible actives is pointless. The situation is entirely out of their hands. If the Crucible doesn't destroy the Reapers, and they actually lose all hope like you said, then they can fly back and go out in a glorious hail of laser beams and explosions all they want. But sticking around while a supposed super-weapon powers up in nonsense.

What exactly are the Reapers going to do about the Citadel changing its shape? Destroy it? Are you forgetting that the Catalyst is on the Citadel? That they're using it to harvest humans?

Why exactly do you think the entire Reaper force would follow an allied retreat? And a retreat of that scale won't happen instantaneously, it will take time, which is why when Shepard is on the Citadel there's still combat going on outside. The Reapers are not just going to stop firing and let the forces pass through them for a clean retreat. Just because they don't show that not happening, doesn't mean ridiculous possibilities like that are in any way likely to have happened.

Allied forces don't know anything specific about the Crucible. And somehow they still go all in on an attack, and that's all the Reapers would need to know about the Crucible...that's it's sufficiently important that it can draw in the combined forces of the entire galaxy to try and get to it. Javik/VI on Thessia mentions they were undone in their efforts to build the Crucible by indoctrinated forces that thought they could control the Reapers. Given how it all plays out at least the hopes of what the Crucible could be were known by indoctrinated forces in both cycles and this fact would be known by the high level military planners in this fight. That combined with the previous point and the later thing of the Citadel suddenly altering form could together signal to the Reapers it's time to get out of Dodge. Whether it DOES is only important later, but revealing your hand there is the question.

The allied forces aren't there just to be near the Citadel. They would be there to pin the Reapers in place with their ships or bodies to prevent as much as possible the very thing the Normandy was tying to do (a quick trip to FTL) to maximize the effect of the doomsday device. Running doesn't accomplish anything AT ALL REGARDLESS of the scenario. Crucible works, Reapers can simply leave like the allied fleet did. Even a small number would end galactic civilization. Crucible doesn't work? Reapers live, just in more numbers. Either way, everyone dies, just later.

Again, the military planners of the alliance don't know what the Reapers are going to do as they don't even know what the Crucible will do. But you can't plan on the Reapers being passive observers as a plot device (that you know they have some inkling about) that countless civilizations worked on through time goes about it's business. Because again you have no idea the nature of what it's going to do or how obvious it will be to the targets.

The entire Reaper fleet doesn't have to follow an allied retreat. One Sovereign pretty effectively pasted several assembled fleets with impunity. Just a couple of that class of Reaper surviving would only make the eventual extinction of galactic civ slower not stop it. And I love the irony of how ridiculous you find it for the Reapers not to fire on withdrawing forces despite ZERO evidence a general retreat had been called let alone an orderly one, and you know me not mentioning anything of the sort anyways (heck part of my thesis is the Reapers might very well continue the fight), and somehow the only logical thing for the ENTIRE Reaper force is to then follow them as the only alternative possibility to what we ACTUALLY SEE ON SCREEN, continued combat.

Whatever, I'm done here, the debate was on the ending, and what we actually were presented with was my crew and the Normandy running in the middle of the biggest fight ever with no text, visuals, or voice work stating this included anyone other than them. I'm not interested in further debating fanon explanations for what should have made a whole lot more sense without them.

You can rebut to your heart's content, we aren't going to change each other's minds, and as a result I think we both have better things to be doing.

@TheHT said:

SPOILERS

They also left that 'most important military engagement EVER' to drop Shepard and crew off of Earth, so I don't see why picking them up, especially when the radio chatter when Shepard awakes from Harbinger's blast calls for a retreat, is hard to swallow.

The Reapers seeing the allied forces leaving could very well have figured they gave up. With the main bulk of their forces at and around Earth (along with the Citadel), leaving because your attackers have broken combat and are leaving doesn't make sense.

The allied forces could choose where to activate the Crucible. The Reapers brought the Citadel to Earth, so that's where they had to use it, regardless of what that means for Earth. Given all that's at stake, they can't delay in the hopes that the Reapers would happen to move the Citadel away (which reports from the ground of the beam connecting Earth to the Citadel would suggest is unlikely to happen).

There's no point in sacrificing the main allied forces in the hopes that the Crucible does in fact destroy all the Reapers. What if it didn't and only affected their ships? The entire war would be over. The situation needed to be approached with caution, and flying into the Crucible's energy is reckless.

The beam also shot out after the energy sphere, and FTL travel is pretty fast, so it's not hard to imagine they'd be far from the Sol system. It's also perhaps more important than I previously thought to note the radio chatter when Shepard awakes. That's most probably the start of the retreat, and throughout Shepard going on the Citadel and talking to the Illusive Man and to the Catalyst, the allied forces would be executing their retreat.

It's hard to swallow because dropping Shep off was a planned axis for the entire invasion. The Normandy exiting combat to pick up a few groundpounders in the middle of their own combat (plenty of Reaper forces still on planet and in orbit) and then leaving the system is probably not.

The invasion force cannot count on the Reapers assuming anything. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but the viewpoint of all that has to be from the characters in universe. This is an all or nothing gamble, your forces are gathered and have taken heavy losses going by the various cinematics and the background view Shep has while on the Citadel (which suggests they HAVEN'T been retreating as Shep is wandering around the Citadel given the number of explosions). Like the climax of another three part sci-fi epic, the plucky alliance will never have a shot like this again. In universe you can't assume the Reapers won't pursue or won't figure out what's happening. Again they built the Citadel, the people that make decisions on the Normandy at the VERY minimum would know this. They also know the Reapers have myriad cycles of indoctrinated folk (and with Javik know THEY know something is up with the Crucible for at least 2 cycles) that can inform them about what details exist. They don't know what the Reapers know but you have to plan around it regardless. And assuming they will just stay on Earth while a plot device goes all Transformers on them can't be one of them.

There's EVERY reason to sacrificing the main allied fleet in the hopes the Crucible does in fact destroy the Reapers. There are 4 options here based on whether the Crucible works and whether it works relatively exclusively on Reapers. 3 of these lead to a dead Earth regardless and the loss of the ships (and ground forces) that didn't pull out sufficiently. One leads to the magical hope of dead Reapers and a surviving Earth. However, if the Crucible DOESN'T destroy the Reapers then all hope is lost regardless. A Sov level Reaper can deal with fleets. A destroyer can clamp down on a cruiser and have it blow up under it. Defeating the Reapers in direct combat is never going to be an option on a galactic scale. Not after the losses already incurred and the complete loss of the ground forces on Earth. Heck firepower so high that it can scar a planet AFTER it went through a Reaper didn't even kill that Reaper. Not pinning them down means even if the Crucible worked as hoped you still have to deal with planet devastating opponents that didn't stay in system with what escaped.

Assuming the Reapers will now just ignore the Citadel/Crucible going all death blossom or simply not follow the escaping forces is a ludicrous risk given those stakes and those options.

@mrpandaman said:

@Natesaint: Filled with blue babies... I don't think people want blue babies. Maybe say asari babies.

@MonkeyKing1969: @Mode7: My problem with the people disliking the ending is that many of the responses have been destructive. It has gotten better over the past few weeks, but that initial reaction and the way the people that disliked the ending conducted themselves made themselves look like children. I'm not saying all the people, but there certainly was a crowd of people that were lashing out and whining like children.

I mean it's fine to have the harsh criticism of the ending, but the degree of which people have shown that is crazy. There comes a point where people can't take anything away from that and it sounds like a whole lot of whining. Which is unfortunate, because many people do have valid complaints about the ending. I, myself, am pretty fine with the ending. The only thing that puzzled me a little was the Joker part.

I treated the whole game as the ending and that choice in the final sequence with the Catalyst was influenced by my previous choices. I made it influenced by my past choices. While all endings lead to the destruction of the Mass Relays, it is very interesting to know what effect my choice of destruction, synthesis, and control had on the galaxy.

It's the internet, the loudest most "vocal" folk are the most apparent. Doesn't mean they are representative or most numerous. It's why I hateboth in general and this specific case when the detractors get lumped in with the crazies. That said some of the fans have obviously gone insane in how they've treated other human beings regarding an effing video game.

@DFSVegas said:

I must be the only person on the planet who had no problem with the ending.

I honestly don't know what people could be complaining about.

For me, it's the same thing I had with the ending of the Horizon mission in ME2. Literally a half dozen better ways for Shep to argue his point and this game sold on the notion of player agency suddenly gives him a bad concussion just short of slurred speech because the plot has to go a certain way. And while you might argue Shep DID have a bad concussion by the end of ME3, well he was still together enough to potentially have the IM drop imply by talking to him so he's still operating at a high level. At the very least say having the Geth/Quarians go a certain way ought to have opened up some alternative dialogue.

@TheHT said:

@huser: No one knew what the Crucible would do once activated, and the general concensus was that it's a weapon. With that in mind, seeing it activated they would have all evacuated the area.

Seeing a giant energy 'explosion' followed by a beam being shot out behind them, escape is the appropriate response.

As for your crewmates being on the Normandy, yeah, the Normandy obviously picked them up.

The only actual goof in the ending (if this actually happens, I don't know) is EDI being around after the Destroy ending. She should be dead, along with the geth and all other synthetics.

For the Normandy to pick up my crew, that still means they left the most important military engagement EVER to help some other folks that ought to be fighting to also abandon the fight.

You are right they didn't know what the Crucible would do. Or even how it would do it. Here's a slight problem with your idea that escape makes so much sense....why wouldn't the Reapers be able to do the same thing? You'd think having BUILT the Citadel, even without their cadre of indoctrinated folk over the cycles giving them some insight that something is up (like say Cerberus), having it go all death blossom while everyone they are fighting are now busy trying to hit FTL might make them decide to bug out as well, given how much effort these folks went to build the Crucible to begin with. Beyond the then tacit acceptance that the Earth and everyone left on it are now being left for dead whether the Crucible works or not (ie the Crucible or the Reapers get them), they are also abandoning anyone that can't make that jump while also completely ignoring the possibility that the Reapers could simply follow them. Makes far more sense if you think the Crucible IS some kind of doomsday weapon so potent that you need to hit FTL to hope to escape it, to instead try and pin down as many of the Reapers as possible with your sacrificed bodies (or ships) since the planet you came to save will now be dead, your fleet is in tatters regardless (fleeing in a rout), and this will be a oneshot all or nothing gamble.

RE: the beam shot out behind them, that's while they're already in FTL, likely already having gone through the Charon array, or put another way likely well after they decided to bug out, disengage from the enemy, pick up my crew, exit atmosphere, fly however long it takes to get to the array while plotting the jump, then going through the array.

@TheHT said:

@mutha3 said:

@TheHT said:

The ending is sensical, and alleged plotholes are easily explained away

Disagreed. I think the ending is utterly incoherent and nonsensical. No amount of "clarifying" will change that. The ending is broken on a fundamental level. Unless they retcon things, I already know this "extended cut" won't do anything for me.

What about the ending is incoherent and nonsensical?

These are relatively minor but you did ask for incoherent or nonsensical...

The Normandy leaving in the middle (at least from their viewpoint) of possibly the most important battle EVER in the Milky Way.

And apparently this varies so for some people this didn't happen, but for me, squadmates suddenly being on the Normandy, so now it not only left the fight, but took the time to evac my crew and then they all hightailed it without explanation.

@briangodsoe said:

"I hate the ending! They need to change it! Fuck Bioware!"

"I heard they were going to do something about the ending but I bet they'll charge! They probably planned this all along! Fuck Bioware!"

"They're releasing a free DLC that will add context and an epilouge that will probably address my choices? I can't believe they caved! Fuck Bioware! Sellouts!"

Seriously what the fuck internet?

Not exactly a surprise or even necessarily a BAD thing that you can't please everyone all the time. I mean is there a large number of people espousing all three of those snippets? Likely the first two were the "entitled brats" and the last was the "Gamez is totally art" side.

Garrus or Mordin. I wish Legion had had more screen time and was available earlier in ME2. Stupid Xbox limitations (and no this ain't a partisan console fanboy comment), splitting that game in half....

@mordukai said:

@huser said:

@mordukai: How is it factually wrong that humanity is particularly genetically diverse relative to fictional aliens?

You misunderstood. Not compared to fictional aliens but the Mass Effect universe keeps saying that human beings are genetically diverse. That is completely wrong. Fact of the matter is that there's very little genetic various between all humans today suggesting that human beings went through a population buttleneck roughly about 70,000 years ago. Sure we look different but that's mostly cosmetics. There are more genetic differences between two chimps of different clans who live in the same area then there are between two humans living on the oppisite sides of the planet. This also a point that irked me on Mordin's Loyalty mission from ME2 where he [Mordin] claims that humans are the best live subjects because of the large genetic veriation. If you're that interested in that subject then Google and Wikipedia are your friends..

I don't think I've misunderstood. I was pretty sure this was the angle for your ire. Again the statement of being genetically diverse has to be in comparison to something, otherwise you'd might as well just look to some single celled lifeforms. Seems likely given the context of Reapers and Mordin, the point of comparison is other advanced aliens at this point in the ME universe. Without info on those species genomes, no real evidence to suggest the statement isn't true. That's not to say the whole crux of the issue isn't without flaw because I do agree with you on a layman's terms, just that judgement of the comparison has to be set in context.

And yes, I'm well aware both specifically and in general concept, that humanity has gone through various population bottlenecks not least of which being the several that lead to and resulted from migrations out of Southern/Eastern Africa as those areas cyclically went through extensive droughts. Which helps explain the relatively huge amount of genetic diversity of humans within Africa compared to outside it. I'm also aware of some of the evidence both for and against a specific bottleneck occurring about 70,000 years ago as a result of a volcanic eruption.