Console gamers: Hardcore, Casual or Super Casual.

Nowadays, most people equate hardcore games to games with stuff that blows up, racers....etc ie... the traditional audience. However, I refute that claim. This is the age of console gaming and by that association, you are all casual gamers.

Why do I say so? The simplification of gaming controls to adapt to the simplicity of the console controller. Legacy games that used the old qwerty keyboards used to have access to hundreds of combinations of keys (alt, shift, ctrl, alt-shift-ctrl....etc) and each and everyone of them served some purpose (useful or useless either way). Old rpg's with huge character charts and game menus, space sims (divert power to shields!), flight sims (Jane's ATF), RTS, MECHWARRIOR...etc. For example, flight sims, old style hardcore people would be the crowd who plays the flight simulator series that comes out from microsoft which aims to map control for control for flying a plane and try to emulate real world enviroments to totally kill you. Juxtapose that with something like Ace Combat? its become a point and shoot game with more emphasis on blowing stuff up as a plane rather than try to make you feel like an Ace pilot.

You are gamers that are probably frustrated by trying to get stuff to work on the PC and just prefer stick to a pop&play games that you can just pick up and murder some dudes and with that, rather skip stuff like customization and game changing source changes. Another example, a friend of mine(a ps3 owner) just bought Prince of Persia,  infamous and prototype and finished it all in ONE WEEK and is already complaining about the lack of stuff to play (fuck him). Have traditional gamers been turned into consumerist woodchip machines that keep requiring new games that totally play like the old one but with just a different graphics engine to placate them? YOU SHOT HIM IN THE FACE MAN, MAN? WORD!. The hardcore crowd are the people need their inch-thick manuals that you must read or you will fucking die.

So for gamers who just want to game, I believe they are the casual group, it's just that you have different purchasing tastes as compared to the other 'casuals' ie...wii shovelware group( The Super casuals?).

However, I still think games that require an individual to hone their skills down to a knife's edge on the multiplayer level like fighters or maybe even shooters (only for the most hardcore shooter fans ie the CS crowd) can still be considered hardcore because their the fucking crazy guys you see with 50 kills to 1 lost.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for 'not getting it' but this is what I staunchly believe. All console gaming is casual and its killing old control-heavy genres to fit the game into 8 buttons and four directions. All that differientiates you are purchasing habits.

45 Comments
45 Comments
Posted by kitsune_conundrum

Nowadays, most people equate hardcore games to games with stuff that blows up, racers....etc ie... the traditional audience. However, I refute that claim. This is the age of console gaming and by that association, you are all casual gamers.

Why do I say so? The simplification of gaming controls to adapt to the simplicity of the console controller. Legacy games that used the old qwerty keyboards used to have access to hundreds of combinations of keys (alt, shift, ctrl, alt-shift-ctrl....etc) and each and everyone of them served some purpose (useful or useless either way). Old rpg's with huge character charts and game menus, space sims (divert power to shields!), flight sims (Jane's ATF), RTS, MECHWARRIOR...etc. For example, flight sims, old style hardcore people would be the crowd who plays the flight simulator series that comes out from microsoft which aims to map control for control for flying a plane and try to emulate real world enviroments to totally kill you. Juxtapose that with something like Ace Combat? its become a point and shoot game with more emphasis on blowing stuff up as a plane rather than try to make you feel like an Ace pilot.

You are gamers that are probably frustrated by trying to get stuff to work on the PC and just prefer stick to a pop&play games that you can just pick up and murder some dudes and with that, rather skip stuff like customization and game changing source changes. Another example, a friend of mine(a ps3 owner) just bought Prince of Persia,  infamous and prototype and finished it all in ONE WEEK and is already complaining about the lack of stuff to play (fuck him). Have traditional gamers been turned into consumerist woodchip machines that keep requiring new games that totally play like the old one but with just a different graphics engine to placate them? YOU SHOT HIM IN THE FACE MAN, MAN? WORD!. The hardcore crowd are the people need their inch-thick manuals that you must read or you will fucking die.

So for gamers who just want to game, I believe they are the casual group, it's just that you have different purchasing tastes as compared to the other 'casuals' ie...wii shovelware group( The Super casuals?).

However, I still think games that require an individual to hone their skills down to a knife's edge on the multiplayer level like fighters or maybe even shooters (only for the most hardcore shooter fans ie the CS crowd) can still be considered hardcore because their the fucking crazy guys you see with 50 kills to 1 lost.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for 'not getting it' but this is what I staunchly believe. All console gaming is casual and its killing old control-heavy genres to fit the game into 8 buttons and four directions. All that differientiates you are purchasing habits.

Edited by Al3xand3r

The thing is, PC games are like that too now, outside flight sims and similar genres which grow increasingly unpopular. So, with your definition of more keys = more hardcore, the vast majority of PC gamers are also casual.

There are plenty of classic PC ttiles that didn't use all that many keys either. Deus Ex. Baldur's Gate. Intuitive mouse control and intuitive streamlined controls aren't a new trend. Many developers, many respected developers, have been striving for that since day one.

Control is fine to be streamlined as far as I'm concerned, gameplay however shouldn't be. And of course if you aim to make a flight sim you can't streamline the controls either. Outside that, anything goes really.

Edited by kitsune_conundrum

but how much of that is imposed by multiplatform requirements? So PC people are stooping down to pick up scraps just to stay in the party.

This is one of the reasons I play stuff like Dwarven fortress (look it up). Its a rouge-like that is so vast and complicated that it murders modern PCs with just pure calculations.

Posted by Bigandtasty

is it wrong or "casual" of me to want a game to just work out of the box rather than worrying about drivers and DRM? 


no, and i think the casual/hardcore argument has been done to death and is pointless by now
Edited by Al3xand3r

No, they're not, the mouse is a powerful device and many PC exclusive titles, old or new, have used it to great  effect to offer streamlined control without watering down the experience. Heck, many of the deepest games also have the simplest controls, like for example a mouse-driven turn-based strategy game like Civilization or Galactic Civilizations. Sure, you have hotkey options, but in a turn based game, that's all they are. Options. The mouse also remains the primary control method anyway.

And yes, Dwarf Fortress rocks, but being turn-based it could also do with a better, intuitive, mouse-driven interface. Remembering 104 keys doesn't make it hardcore, the gameplay could in theory be the exact same, with a far more user friendly experience. The developer's inability (as in, lack of time, not skill) and the small fanbase's quirks are what hold it down from getting better. And it's a very small minority of PC gaming.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@Al3xand3r said:
" The thing is, PC games are like that too now, outside flight sims and similar genres which grow increasingly unpopular. So, with your definition of more keys = more hardcore, the vast majority of PC gamers are also casual.There are plenty of classic PC ttiles that didn't use all that many keys either. Deus Ex. Baldur's Gate. Intuitive mouse control and intuitive streamlined controls aren't a new trend. Many developers, many respected developers, have been striving for that since day one.Control is fine to be streamlined as far as I'm concerned, gameplay however shouldn't be. And of course if you aim to make a flight sim you can't streamline the controls either. Outside that, anything goes really. "
Baldur's gate may not have alot of keys (more than what a controllers can access) but all those menus and scrollbars? Tough. This is one of my arguments, gameplay is being sacrificed to cater to the a simplified platform. Tell me how I would play X-com again on a console.
@Bigandtasty said:
" is it wrong or "casual" of me to want a game to just work out of the box rather than worrying about drivers and DRM? 

no, and i think the casual/hardcore argument has been done to death and is pointless by now
"
Yes, you are casual because you just want things to simply 'work'. Tweaks, mods, hacks? too much hassle. The hardcore definition I have expands out to other fields. For example, my photography hobby, I will build a L-bracket out of aluminum with my barehands in a tool shop so that I can just twist my flash gun 90 degrees or my inane collection of guitar pedals and my fetish for learning j-rock guitar solos. Hardcore crowds are the insane people who will break stuff, make things work and invest their blood and tears into something they are interested in.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@Al3xand3r said:
" No, they're not, the mouse is a powerful device and many PC exclusive titles, old or new, have used it to great  effect to offer streamlined control without watering down the experience. Heck, many of the deepest games also have the simplest controls, like for example a mouse-driven turn-based strategy game like Civilization or Galactic Civilizations. Sure, you have hotkey options, but in a turn based game, that's all they are. Options. The mouse also remains the primary control method anyway.

And yes, Dwarf Fortress rocks, but being turn-based it could also do with a better, intuitive, mouse-driven interface. Remembering 104 keys doesn't make it hardcore, the gameplay could in theory be the exact same, with a far more user friendly experience. The developer's inability (as in, lack of time, not skill) and the small fanbase's quirks are what hold it down from getting better. And it's a very small minority of PC gaming. "
Dwarf fortress is totally real-time man. Yeah, thats why I'm really hoping that the results from all this hoo-ha motion controls from Microsoft and Sony to finally realise an equivalent substitute to the mouse so that develops can finally revitalise these lost genres.
Edited by Al3xand3r

Menus are not hardcore control methods, menus are easy and intuitive control methods thanks to the mouse. There are plenty of menu-heavy games on consoles, and people tend to frown upon them, while they're mostly Japanese. The Final Fantasy Tactics style could easily be adapted to a western X-Com like game. I spent weeks on the PlayStation's Civilization II actually, as I didn't have a PC back then. Sure, it was messier, but the actual gameplay was identical. And great. Developers simply aren't willing to create those games anymore because they're not popular. Not on PC. Not on consoles. The Wii could do it even better with its mouse-like functions but still they don't make those games.

Edit:
Dwarf Fortress is real time? I thought things don't move as long as you don't move, like all roguelikes. Perhaps that was the adventure mode. The point is, a better interface and user experience could exist without watering down the actual gameplay, but roguelike fans are too particular in their expectations and would probably shun such efforts, though on the upside it could reach a larger audience. Maybe it'll happen, sometime.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
Oh yeah maybe, I only play in fortress mode. Thats another good point, Japanese games ie jrpgs traditionally had huge menus and really deep gameplay mechanics someway or another which may explain why i still love Final fantasy and stuff like Persona. But if western develops create games using that route, imagine of how much heat they'd get for making stuff 'japanesy' even though all they are doing is to finding a solution to hearken control access back to the old days. Also, how would you think of spellbook management for Baldur's gate on a console? I'm interested.
Edited by The_A_Drain

Yes another bullshit definition of 'hardcore' I disagree with. Oh goody.

Imo it's about how many hours you put in and the variety of games you play. Imo someone who plays everything from Baldur's Gate, through to Zork, through Resident Evil through Animal Crossing to Wii Fit and finishes up on Fatal Frame or something is more hardcore than someone who only owns Guitar Hero III and Gears of War, I don't care how many hours a week they play Gears or Halo multiplayer.

Mass market selling games like Halo and Gears of war are in my opinion as casual as Wii Fit and Bejeweled etc.

Someones who is hardcore into video games shouldn't be some elitist prick who thinks that some types of games are instantaneously better than other types of games for any reason other than personal preference, and should dip into every genre and style of videogame imaginable.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@The_A_Drain said:

I'm just exercising my right to an opinion mister.

Posted by Al3xand3r
I don't like D&D rules so I can't discuss spell management in detail.
Posted by The_A_Drain
@kitsune_conundrum:

As am I.
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@The_A_Drain said:
" @kitsune_conundrum: As am I. "
So keep it civil, this is the internets.
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@Al3xand3r said:
" I don't like D&D rules so I can't discuss spell management in detail. "
hrmmm, imagine all of infamous powers and abilities and x9 that. Each with unique effects and abilities while taking in consideration your level and your targets level which in turn is all affected by an invisible dice roll.
Edited by Al3xand3r

I haven't played infamous. Anyway, you've said it. Certain JRPGs are very menu-heavy, so I'm sure this could be done. Perhaps you could set say, a different spell to each button for each character, with an overlay showing their icons, so that you at least have quick (real-time) access to at least 16 of them using modifier buttons (you could divide them in categories, so holding triangle put a different set of spells on the L/R buttons, square another set, etc). You'd only go to menus to select spells other than your personalised character presets, which should be rarer.

Posted by The_A_Drain
@kitsune_conundrum said:
"
@The_A_Drain said:
" @kitsune_conundrum: As am I. "
So keep it civil, this is the internets."

That was civil, considering this is the internets afterall. Giant manuals don't make me hardcore, and i'm not saying that because I never used them or experienced them, I used to play a high level wizard in living greyhawk and numerous other DnD campaigns and have worked my way through the great majority of PC classics. I consider myself a more hardcore gamer for having done so, but not because of the games complexity level, take the PC snobbery somewhere else. Bending over to pick up the scraps? Hey, it's not my fault developers don't want to make complex PC games anymore because piracy is killing the platform and all the money is on consoles. As you say, there are plenty of indie/free offerings with high levels of complexity, and you still have the old classics.
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@Al3xand3r said:
" Haven't played infamous. Anyway, you've said it. Certain JRPGs are very menu-heavy, so I'm sure this could be done. Perhaps you could set say, a different spell to each button for each character, with an overlay showing their icons, so that you at least have quick access to at least 16 of them using modifier buttons (you could divide them in categories, so holding triangle put a different set of spells on the L/R buttons, square another set, etc). You'd only go to menus to select spells other than your personalised character presets, which should be rarer. "
Radial menus, more games need a pause mechanic like in the old D&D games and NWN games so we can trully unleash the power of the force. Didn't Vagrant hearts on the PS1 do something like this? But this still only addresses 1 genre of many.
@The_A_Drain said:
"
@kitsune_conundrum said:
"
@The_A_Drain said:
" @kitsune_conundrum: As am I. "
So keep it civil, this is the internets."
That was civil, considering this is the internets afterall. Giant manuals don't make me hardcore, and i'm not saying that because I never used them or experienced them, I used to play a high level wizard in living greyhawk and numerous other DnD campaigns and have worked my way through the great majority of PC classics. I consider myself a more hardcore gamer for having done so, but not because of the games complexity level, take the PC snobbery somewhere else. Bending over to pick up the scraps? Hey, it's not my fault developers don't want to make complex PC games anymore because piracy is killing the platform and all the money is on consoles. As you say, there are plenty of indie/free offerings with high levels of complexity, and you still have the old classics. "
I'm not talking about PC snobbery. Its just the evolution of games based around the plaform and enviroment they are made to develop in and that we as gamer's, have in majority moved into the casual market until we find that small niche that we will go crazy over (hopefully kof12 for me). Its just like buying a off-the shelf suit or only requiring a bespoke tailors like that crazy dandy I am.

Edited by Bigandtasty

I don't have a problem with trying out mods to make my game more interesting. I do have a problem with all the DRM popping up recently and how PC games will often not run well even if my computer meets requirements.


So I'm fine with using a PC and experimenting with stuff from years ago (San Andreas, HL2, Deus Ex, etc.) and sticking to it for genres that work better there (RTS, etc.) but when it comes time to buy the hot new game coming out on 360 and PC, I'll buy it on 360 and skip the potential problems. This is a video game, after all - I just want to enjoy it and if that makes me casual to someone else, fine.
Posted by The_A_Drain
@kitsune_conundrum:

Yeah well if you're idea of evolution is putting Radial menus in everything i'm glad you're not responsible for any kind of game design. Those fucking things kept me from being able to enjoy Temple of Elemental Evil. And only certain types of game, namely, wRPG's need a pause function like the old DnD games, in all other genres it would be unecessary and outright opposed by the huge majority of fans.

I feel you pain, you want more Baldurs Gate, more Arcanum, more Planescape: Torment, but the answer isn't to try and force old mechanics into games that wouldn't benefit from them.
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@The_A_Drain said:

Well, evolution just means change, for better or worse. Besides, didn't NWN do radial menus on the PC itself? But yeah, a system that suites one maybe be all that hot for another. First guy to figure this out earns his millions from me I guess.
Posted by The_A_Drain
@kitsune_conundrum:

So it's ok for you to say games 'need' something and it's not ok for me to tell you I think they don't? Seems kinda backward.

NWN did have Radial menus but it wasn't as awful as in Temple of Elemental Evil, besides they got rid of them in NWN2 because they were slow and cumbersome, pretty logical i'd say because they were. I only played through the original NWN twice, didn't feel the need to play it more than that, and I finished all the expansions and played around with the mod tools a little.
Posted by The_A_Drain
@kitsune_conundrum:

So it's ok for you to say games 'need' something and it's not ok for me to tell you I think they don't? Seems kinda backward.

NWN did have Radial menus but it wasn't as awful as in Temple of Elemental Evil, besides they got rid of them in NWN2 because they were slow and cumbersome, pretty logical i'd say because they were. I only played through the original NWN twice, didn't feel the need to play it more than that, and I finished all the expansions and played around with the mod tools a little.
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@The_A_Drain said:
" @kitsune_conundrum: So it's ok for you to say games 'need' something and it's not ok for me to tell you I think they don't?
What? no, all opinions are welcome, besides I already said flaming me was okay. But this is my thread that I started to make a point so yeah, I get that initiative.
Posted by Alex_V

I broadly agree. I don't see how console titles that attempt to simplify controls and features can be labelled hardcore.

But at the same time, I don't see how console titles can be labelled 'casual' either. It all depends how you react to them. One of the games I would describe as the most 'hardcore' experience I've had on a console is Viva Pinata, which is a game that many ignored as a 'casual' game. Gears Of War does seem to me a very casual experience compared to shooters that came before.

All of these distinctions simply do not work, unless you have a need to generalise in marketing-speak.

Edited by Kazu666

Just because there isn't a thousand different buttons combinations in a game doesn't make it any less 'hardcore', if anything the term is defined by the audience, my mum plays Wii, but i don't think she'll be picking up Mass Effect any time soon which in turn could pretty much make it 'hardcore'.

Simply because games are FUN and not brain-wrackingly complicated doesn't make them 'casual'

Posted by KindGalaxy

I like games, there is no need to quantify the meaning, I love CoD 4, Counter-Strike 1.6, WoW, WAR, UO, C&C Red Alert 2, WarCraft 3, Dune 2, Plants vs Zombies, Zuma, Peggle on iPhone, Peggle on XBLA, Peggle on PC, Peggle on NDS, Peggle on the Moon, games are games, it's the dude who sulks in the corner about business plans revolving around making a profit by increasing consumer awareness of a brand; the Wii for example, that has this desire to seperate himself from the 'fucking queers with their waggle and games that don't have 3 difficulty settings and a secret difficulty level where bad guys respawn'. Go fuck your barely adult ass with that mentality. Games are fun, and games come in all varieties.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@Kazu666 said:

You kinda missed the point, its not how complicated a game is but how much effort you are willing to invest to play a game and that in this generation of pop&play gamers, all you want is the given product to work and then blow some brains on the walls rather than to dissect the thing that you are given. Consoles basically take away your ability to 'control' for lack of a better term the game that you have. That's the nature of the box.

Posted by MB
@kitsune_conundrum said:
Consoles basically take away your ability to 'control' for lack of a better term the game that you have.

Can you elaborate on this please, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Moderator
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@KindGalaxy said:
" I like games, there is no need to quantify the meaning, I love CoD 4, Counter-Strike 1.6, WoW, WAR, UO, C&C Red Alert 2, WarCraft 3, Dune 2, Plants vs Zombies, Zuma, Peggle on iPhone, Peggle on XBLA, Peggle on PC, Peggle on NDS, Peggle on the Moon, games are games, it's the dude who sulks in the corner about business plans revolving around making a profit by increasing consumer awareness of a brand; the Wii for example, that has this desire to seperate himself from the 'fucking queers with their waggle and games that don't have 3 difficulty settings and a secret difficulty level where bad guys respawn'. Go fuck your barely adult ass with that mentality. Games are fun, and games come in all varieties. "
Theres no need to actively catergorize yourself personally, the market/ers do that for you. Also, again missing my point.
@MB said:
"
@kitsune_conundrum said:
Consoles basically take away your ability to 'control' for lack of a better term the game that you have.
Can you elaborate on this please, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. "
Err, I guess the most simplistic way to go about this is modding. Keep in mind not all games disallow that on the console but what I'm saying that the true 'hardcore' people are the dudes still making new assets and running multiplayer worlds on NWN 1. Theres a whole bunch of other stuff but i'll let you extrapolate.

Posted by The_A_Drain
@kitsune_conundrum said:
"
@Kazu666 said:

You kinda missed the point, its not how complicated a game is but how much effort you are willing to invest to play a game and that in this generation of pop&play gamers, all you want is the given product to work and then blow some brains on the walls rather than to dissect the thing that you are given. Consoles basically take away your ability to 'control' for lack of a better term the game that you have. That's the nature of the box.
"

Tell that to the hordes of Halo, Gears and Street Fighter players who know their games inside and out the same if not better than any command and conquer or DnD gamer. Not having to memorize complex controls and etc doesn't necessarily mean games don't contain depth or strategy, I mean Street Fighter being a core example, the series is almost simplicity itself, yet has more depth and strategy than any strategy game i've ever encountered, and is more complex (if you want it to be, you can always just button mash if you want to) than any cluster of menus and scroll bars.
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@The_A_Drain said:
"
@kitsune_conundrum said:
"
@Kazu666 said:

You kinda missed the point, its not how complicated a game is but how much effort you are willing to invest to play a game and that in this generation of pop&play gamers, all you want is the given product to work and then blow some brains on the walls rather than to dissect the thing that you are given. Consoles basically take away your ability to 'control' for lack of a better term the game that you have. That's the nature of the box.
"
Tell that to the hordes of Halo, Gears and Street Fighter players who know their games inside and out the same if not better than any command and conquer or DnD gamer. Not having to memorize complex controls and etc doesn't necessarily mean games don't contain depth or strategy, I mean Street Fighter being a core example, the series is almost simplicity itself, yet has more depth and strategy than any strategy game i've ever encountered, and is more complex (if you want it to be, you can always just button mash if you want to) than any cluster of menus and scroll bars. "
If you look up a few posts, I do address this and this minority segment of players who do specifically focus themselves into honing their skills down to this game can be considered as such especially competitive multiplayer or fighting games. But thats the minority(those crazy dhalsims) and this only applies in gameplay rather than the totality of the game itself.
Posted by ROBdaMOB

casual gamers are people who play wii sports
hardcore is basically everyone on this site
sorry if we didnt get to play old pc games with stupid amount of keys and controls
streamline welcome to 2009
Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@ROBdaMOB said:
" casual gamers are people who play wii sports hardcore is basically everyone on this sitesorry if we didnt get to play old pc games with stupid amount of keys and controls streamline welcome to 2009 "
Once again, you are shooting tracers into the night sky.
Posted by ROBdaMOB

thats how the big companies break it down.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@ROBdaMOB said:
" thats how the big companies break it down. "
what?
Posted by ROBdaMOB

sony, microsoft and nintendo.
if im not mistaken their the ones responsible for these terms being used so much.
but i feel where your coming from video games are easier.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@ROBdaMOB said:
" sony, microsoft and nintendo. if im not mistaken their the ones responsible for these terms being used so much. but i feel where your coming from video games are easier. "
ah yes, thanks for clearing that up. I don't necessarily say games are getting easier, have you tried those legendary or veteran modes? I don't and I can't. What I'm saying is(inter alia) your ability to change and adapt the game for yourself and by the greater community. The most blatant and simplistic example i can give is Oblivion on the PC. My oblivion and your console oblivion are (at last playing) 2 totally different games.
Edited by Adamantium

Hmmm... interesting debate. I feel that Hardcore vs. Casual is generally what you make of the games you play, not the platform you play them on. For example getting all acheivements/trophies for a particular game might qualify someone as a hardcore player of that game, but not a hardcore gamer in general. At the same time, someone who buys and plays many games and acquires all the bragging rights for all of them might definitely qualify as a hardcore gamer, but you still may be able to beat that person at your own favorite game that they simply don't get down on.

IMO, you can put time and energy into becoming seriously good at just about any game you play, on whatever platform, and "skill" generally doesn't factor in until you've mastered the interface, game theory, and gameplay elements involved in whatever particular game you're playing atm (though being "skilled" at video games can definitely help you master any game in a shorter amount of time). But by the time it takes to actually reach that level, many gamers have fallen away or moved onto newer, better games. So "skill" often only divides top-tier players from each other.

One last note: as far as the "dumbing down" of controls for consoles, I disagree a bit. I think many times it's more difficult to be good with fewer buttons or an analog stick than with 75-button control configurations and the accuracy of a mouse pointer. Getting headshots with a mouse pointer, that's par for the course. You use your whole hand, wrist, and much of your arm for precision movement. Getting headshots with only your thumb and trigger finger on a console is much more difficult, IMO. And of course that comparison only applies to twich games where speed and precision rule the day, as opposed to games that are purely strategic in nature.

A "hardcore gamer" might be able to pwn anytime, anywhere; but any gamer can be "hardcore" at a particular game with enough practice.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum
@Adamantium said:
" Hmmm... interesting debate. I feel that Hardcore vs. Casual is generally what you make of the games you play, not the platform you play them on. For example getting all acheivements/trophies for a particular game might qualify someone as a hardcore player of that game, but not a hardcore gamer in general. At the same time, some.............
Your addressing the gaming skills side of the hardcore argument and it's valid (the other side is you the playing being able to manipulate the game assets). Look at all those ppl still playing counter strike. I do admit my argument against shooters on a console controller is a bit old since those games have been coming out for quite a while. But how much of it is you adapting over time? I'm pretty sure when FPS first came out on consoles, a lot of ppl would have went "wtf is this shit". Which is why I believe Halo was so instrumental (more flame bait). I personally think that Halo legitmized or at least introduced FPSes to a large amount of todays gaming audience on the console, I'd compare it as the final fantasy 7 (im on fire!) of the playstation generation.
Posted by Adamantium
@kitsune_conundrum said:
"
@Adamantium said:
" Hmmm... interesting debate. I feel that Hardcore vs. Casual is generally what you make of the games you play, not the platform you play them on. For example getting all acheivements/trophies for a particular game might qualify someone as a hardcore player of that game, but not a hardcore gamer in general. At the same time, some.............
Your addressing the gaming skills side of the hardcore argument and it's valid (the other side is you the playing being able to manipulate the game assets). Look at all those ppl still playing counter strike. I do admit my argument against shooters on a console controller is a bit old since those games have been coming out for quite a while. But how much of it is you adapting over time? I'm pretty sure when FPS first came out on consoles, a lot of ppl would have went "wtf is this shit". Which is why I believe Halo was so instrumental (more flame bait). I personally think that Halo legitmized or at least introduced FPSes to a large amount of todays gaming audience on the console, I'd compare it as the final fantasy 7 (im on fire!) of the playstation generation. "
I hear you. Personally I'd say Goldeneye first brought competitive FPS gameply to the forefront of console gaming. I do think a lot of people went "wtf is this sh*t" at the time, but I really think at least half the people really enjoyed shooting their buddies up with an analog stick without really comparing it to existing FPS shooters on the PC.

All the folks that still play CS do count for something, but the converse of the argument works as well. Much of their success can be attributed to strategy, not skill (camping, anyone?). I'd also say that anyone still playing CS is more of a hardcore CS player, not necessarily a hardcore gamer, if you take my meaning.

Adapting over time works both ways as well. As for me, I've only gotten sharper with an analog stick, out of basic necessity, since I paid too much for my PS3 to not buy as many good games as I can for it (Resistance1&2 and CoD4 off the top of my head right now). Again my point was not only skills, but strategy and time spent playing as well. All of these things can make one a hardcore player of any game, and being able to do it on any platform at any time is what I would say makes one a hardcore gamer. But we may just be talking apples and oranges at this point, I definitely get where you're coming from.
Edited by Lazyaza

I play every kind of game in existence(except for most sports titles), I own a psp, ps3, 360, a high end pc(I built myself) and I also play my gf's wii from time to time.    I prefer consoles for some types of games and pc for others yet I have found myself enjoying all genres on both.  I dont think their is a platform that is 'better' control/feel wise for any genre of game, it all comes down to how the game was designed and which it is better suited for. 

I dont care that games are becoming easier or simpler to play and enjoy, the whole idea of 'challenge' and 'difficulty' somehow equaling a 'better' experience just seems like a really stupid out dated idea to me.  I mean think about it, bashing your head against a wall may eventually knock a big ass hole through it, but really wouldn't it have just been better to grab a sledge hammer and do it in one go, thus avoiding all the damage done to your head?  You get the satisfaction of having made the hole both ways, but one was clearly less irritating and time consuming and ultimately do you really want to waste your life bashing your head when you could be sledge hammering your way through thus being able to enjoy more things?

The fact of the matter is gaming is becoming like film and tv, not exactly in terms of experience but more like you are going to be able to buy and enjoy more for less.
What I mean is, games are inevitably going to get shorter and cheaper and easier to play and this format will continue to grow until it emcompasses the hobbie in its entiretly.  To think it wont or isn't is to be in denial.
The average consumer doesn't want to be sitting on their couch for 8 hours straight, the average consumer doesn't want to have to re-learn a controller every time they play a game.  Their will always be a group of people who love long, epic story driven games such as rpgs but take a look at that genre and tell me it isn't being influenced by shorter easier to play games these days.

What I thnk is going to happen is gaming will become divided in a different way to how it is now in that the only difference will be like film and a tv series.  Long games will become 'series' divided into seperately buyable chunks you can choose to purchase all of should you become that interested.  Meanwhile all other games will come down to 2 or 3 hour long experiences similar to those you would get in say a game like Portal.  The huge difference though is that they would have a vastly more focused production and the overal quality of that shorter experience will be many times that of a typical current game.  I also think that controls and interface will eventually be one seemless thing that rarely if ever will require any form of 're-education'.    It is my belief that this is where gaming is headed and no amount of 'man I wish it was like the old days' complaining will affect this.  And you know what I look forward to it.

Posted by kitsune_conundrum

To eat from a can of spam or pouring it out to make a dish out of it.

Posted by Adamantium
@kitsune_conundrum said:
" To eat from a can of spam or pouring it out to make a dish out of it. "
That's food for thought!

Anyway sorry to spam ya. Thought this was a discussion thread. I'm out.
Posted by Diamond
@kitsune_conundrum said:

I don't think many gamers equate 'hardcore' with the type of action the games have.  It's still all about the gameplay, or the gamer.  People used terms like 'mature' and 'kiddie' in the past, but that's unrelated.

I don't think controls have anything to do with how 'hardcore' a game has.  A game can have horrible unwieldy control, or smooth tight controls.

A hardcore game is something like, can you get 100 million points on Raiden Fighters Jet on a single continue in normal difficulty?  Odds are no you cannot, because not a SINGLE person here on Giant Bomb has!  That's what hardcore means to me.