Nowadays, most people equate hardcore games to games with stuff that blows up, racers....etc ie... the traditional audience. However, I refute that claim. This is the age of console gaming and by that association, you are all casual gamers.

Why do I say so? The simplification of gaming controls to adapt to the simplicity of the console controller. Legacy games that used the old qwerty keyboards used to have access to hundreds of combinations of keys (alt, shift, ctrl, alt-shift-ctrl....etc) and each and everyone of them served some purpose (useful or useless either way). Old rpg's with huge character charts and game menus, space sims (divert power to shields!), flight sims (Jane's ATF), RTS, MECHWARRIOR...etc. For example, flight sims, old style hardcore people would be the crowd who plays the flight simulator series that comes out from microsoft which aims to map control for control for flying a plane and try to emulate real world enviroments to totally kill you. Juxtapose that with something like Ace Combat? its become a point and shoot game with more emphasis on blowing stuff up as a plane rather than try to make you feel like an Ace pilot.

You are gamers that are probably frustrated by trying to get stuff to work on the PC and just prefer stick to a pop&play games that you can just pick up and murder some dudes and with that, rather skip stuff like customization and game changing source changes. Another example, a friend of mine(a ps3 owner) just bought Prince of Persia,  infamous and prototype and finished it all in ONE WEEK and is already complaining about the lack of stuff to play (fuck him). Have traditional gamers been turned into consumerist woodchip machines that keep requiring new games that totally play like the old one but with just a different graphics engine to placate them? YOU SHOT HIM IN THE FACE MAN, MAN? WORD!. The hardcore crowd are the people need their inch-thick manuals that you must read or you will fucking die.

So for gamers who just want to game, I believe they are the casual group, it's just that you have different purchasing tastes as compared to the other 'casuals' ie...wii shovelware group( The Super casuals?).

However, I still think games that require an individual to hone their skills down to a knife's edge on the multiplayer level like fighters or maybe even shooters (only for the most hardcore shooter fans ie the CS crowd) can still be considered hardcore because their the fucking crazy guys you see with 50 kills to 1 lost.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for 'not getting it' but this is what I staunchly believe. All console gaming is casual and its killing old control-heavy genres to fit the game into 8 buttons and four directions. All that differientiates you are purchasing habits.

The thing is, PC games are like that too now, outside flight sims and similar genres which grow increasingly unpopular. So, with your definition of more keys = more hardcore, the vast majority of PC gamers are also casual.

There are plenty of classic PC ttiles that didn't use all that many keys either. Deus Ex. Baldur's Gate. Intuitive mouse control and intuitive streamlined controls aren't a new trend. Many developers, many respected developers, have been striving for that since day one.

Control is fine to be streamlined as far as I'm concerned, gameplay however shouldn't be. And of course if you aim to make a flight sim you can't streamline the controls either. Outside that, anything goes really.

but how much of that is imposed by multiplatform requirements? So PC people are stooping down to pick up scraps just to stay in the party.

This is one of the reasons I play stuff like Dwarven fortress (look it up). Its a rouge-like that is so vast and complicated that it murders modern PCs with just pure calculations.

is it wrong or "casual" of me to want a game to just work out of the box rather than worrying about drivers and DRM? 

No, they're not, the mouse is a powerful device and many PC exclusive titles, old or new, have used it to great  effect to offer streamlined control without watering down the experience. Heck, many of the deepest games also have the simplest controls, like for example a mouse-driven turn-based strategy game like Civilization or Galactic Civilizations. Sure, you have hotkey options, but in a turn based game, that's all they are. Options. The mouse also remains the primary control method anyway.

And yes, Dwarf Fortress rocks, but being turn-based it could also do with a better, intuitive, mouse-driven interface. Remembering 104 keys doesn't make it hardcore, the gameplay could in theory be the exact same, with a far more user friendly experience. The developer's inability (as in, lack of time, not skill) and the small fanbase's quirks are what hold it down from getting better. And it's a very small minority of PC gaming.

Menus are not hardcore control methods, menus are easy and intuitive control methods thanks to the mouse. There are plenty of menu-heavy games on consoles, and people tend to frown upon them, while they're mostly Japanese. The Final Fantasy Tactics style could easily be adapted to a western X-Com like game. I spent weeks on the PlayStation's Civilization II actually, as I didn't have a PC back then. Sure, it was messier, but the actual gameplay was identical. And great. Developers simply aren't willing to create those games anymore because they're not popular. Not on PC. Not on consoles. The Wii could do it even better with its mouse-like functions but still they don't make those games.

Edit:
Dwarf Fortress is real time? I thought things don't move as long as you don't move, like all roguelikes. Perhaps that was the adventure mode. The point is, a better interface and user experience could exist without watering down the actual gameplay, but roguelike fans are too particular in their expectations and would probably shun such efforts, though on the upside it could reach a larger audience. Maybe it'll happen, sometime.

Yes another bullshit definition of 'hardcore' I disagree with. Oh goody.

Imo it's about how many hours you put in and the variety of games you play. Imo someone who plays everything from Baldur's Gate, through to Zork, through Resident Evil through Animal Crossing to Wii Fit and finishes up on Fatal Frame or something is more hardcore than someone who only owns Guitar Hero III and Gears of War, I don't care how many hours a week they play Gears or Halo multiplayer.

Mass market selling games like Halo and Gears of war are in my opinion as casual as Wii Fit and Bejeweled etc.

Someones who is hardcore into video games shouldn't be some elitist prick who thinks that some types of games are instantaneously better than other types of games for any reason other than personal preference, and should dip into every genre and style of videogame imaginable.

I haven't played infamous. Anyway, you've said it. Certain JRPGs are very menu-heavy, so I'm sure this could be done. Perhaps you could set say, a different spell to each button for each character, with an overlay showing their icons, so that you at least have quick (real-time) access to at least 16 of them using modifier buttons (you could divide them in categories, so holding triangle put a different set of spells on the L/R buttons, square another set, etc). You'd only go to menus to select spells other than your personalised character presets, which should be rarer.

I don't have a problem with trying out mods to make my game more interesting. I do have a problem with all the DRM popping up recently and how PC games will often not run well even if my computer meets requirements.

I broadly agree. I don't see how console titles that attempt to simplify controls and features can be labelled hardcore.

But at the same time, I don't see how console titles can be labelled 'casual' either. It all depends how you react to them. One of the games I would describe as the most 'hardcore' experience I've had on a console is Viva Pinata, which is a game that many ignored as a 'casual' game. Gears Of War does seem to me a very casual experience compared to shooters that came before.

All of these distinctions simply do not work, unless you have a need to generalise in marketing-speak.

Just because there isn't a thousand different buttons combinations in a game doesn't make it any less 'hardcore', if anything the term is defined by the audience, my mum plays Wii, but i don't think she'll be picking up Mass Effect any time soon which in turn could pretty much make it 'hardcore'.

Simply because games are FUN and not brain-wrackingly complicated doesn't make them 'casual'

I like games, there is no need to quantify the meaning, I love CoD 4, Counter-Strike 1.6, WoW, WAR, UO, C&C Red Alert 2, WarCraft 3, Dune 2, Plants vs Zombies, Zuma, Peggle on iPhone, Peggle on XBLA, Peggle on PC, Peggle on NDS, Peggle on the Moon, games are games, it's the dude who sulks in the corner about business plans revolving around making a profit by increasing consumer awareness of a brand; the Wii for example, that has this desire to seperate himself from the 'fucking queers with their waggle and games that don't have 3 difficulty settings and a secret difficulty level where bad guys respawn'. Go fuck your barely adult ass with that mentality. Games are fun, and games come in all varieties.

thats how the big companies break it down.

sony, microsoft and nintendo.
if im not mistaken their the ones responsible for these terms being used so much.
but i feel where your coming from video games are easier.

Hmmm... interesting debate. I feel that Hardcore vs. Casual is generally what you make of the games you play, not the platform you play them on. For example getting all acheivements/trophies for a particular game might qualify someone as a hardcore player of that game, but not a hardcore gamer in general. At the same time, someone who buys and plays many games and acquires all the bragging rights for all of them might definitely qualify as a hardcore gamer, but you still may be able to beat that person at your own favorite game that they simply don't get down on.

IMO, you can put time and energy into becoming seriously good at just about any game you play, on whatever platform, and "skill" generally doesn't factor in until you've mastered the interface, game theory, and gameplay elements involved in whatever particular game you're playing atm (though being "skilled" at video games can definitely help you master any game in a shorter amount of time). But by the time it takes to actually reach that level, many gamers have fallen away or moved onto newer, better games. So "skill" often only divides top-tier players from each other.

One last note: as far as the "dumbing down" of controls for consoles, I disagree a bit. I think many times it's more difficult to be good with fewer buttons or an analog stick than with 75-button control configurations and the accuracy of a mouse pointer. Getting headshots with a mouse pointer, that's par for the course. You use your whole hand, wrist, and much of your arm for precision movement. Getting headshots with only your thumb and trigger finger on a console is much more difficult, IMO. And of course that comparison only applies to twich games where speed and precision rule the day, as opposed to games that are purely strategic in nature.

A "hardcore gamer" might be able to pwn anytime, anywhere; but any gamer can be "hardcore" at a particular game with enough practice.

I play every kind of game in existence(except for most sports titles), I own a psp, ps3, 360, a high end pc(I built myself) and I also play my gf's wii from time to time.    I prefer consoles for some types of games and pc for others yet I have found myself enjoying all genres on both.  I dont think their is a platform that is 'better' control/feel wise for any genre of game, it all comes down to how the game was designed and which it is better suited for. 

I dont care that games are becoming easier or simpler to play and enjoy, the whole idea of 'challenge' and 'difficulty' somehow equaling a 'better' experience just seems like a really stupid out dated idea to me.  I mean think about it, bashing your head against a wall may eventually knock a big ass hole through it, but really wouldn't it have just been better to grab a sledge hammer and do it in one go, thus avoiding all the damage done to your head?  You get the satisfaction of having made the hole both ways, but one was clearly less irritating and time consuming and ultimately do you really want to waste your life bashing your head when you could be sledge hammering your way through thus being able to enjoy more things?

The fact of the matter is gaming is becoming like film and tv, not exactly in terms of experience but more like you are going to be able to buy and enjoy more for less.
What I mean is, games are inevitably going to get shorter and cheaper and easier to play and this format will continue to grow until it emcompasses the hobbie in its entiretly.  To think it wont or isn't is to be in denial.
The average consumer doesn't want to be sitting on their couch for 8 hours straight, the average consumer doesn't want to have to re-learn a controller every time they play a game.  Their will always be a group of people who love long, epic story driven games such as rpgs but take a look at that genre and tell me it isn't being influenced by shorter easier to play games these days.

What I thnk is going to happen is gaming will become divided in a different way to how it is now in that the only difference will be like film and a tv series.  Long games will become 'series' divided into seperately buyable chunks you can choose to purchase all of should you become that interested.  Meanwhile all other games will come down to 2 or 3 hour long experiences similar to those you would get in say a game like Portal.  The huge difference though is that they would have a vastly more focused production and the overal quality of that shorter experience will be many times that of a typical current game.  I also think that controls and interface will eventually be one seemless thing that rarely if ever will require any form of 're-education'.    It is my belief that this is where gaming is headed and no amount of 'man I wish it was like the old days' complaining will affect this.  And you know what I look forward to it.

To eat from a can of spam or pouring it out to make a dish out of it.