Topic of the week will only last a week.

@Phatmac said:

Can we talk about other stuff please? Like sandwiches?

You sexist pig!

@Jimbo said:

@jakob187 said:

Topic of the week will only last a week.

So? It's better than the zero weeks it ever lasted before, and might make a few people think more about how they act and what they choose to spend their money on. It being discussed at all is a step in the right direction.

3 Days and counting.

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

@LiquidPrince said:

Another thing is the Hitman trailer... The first time I watched that, I was like "ow that's brutal" and perhaps in my own wierd sexist way thought, "I don't like seeing woman hit in that fashion." I then began thinking, why do I not like that idea... I mean why is it acceptable to see the Gears of War dudes get curb stomped, or Issac from Dead Space get mutilated, but when it's girls... ASSASSIN girls mind you, it's suddenly the worst thing ever.

Marcus Fenix and Issac aren't wearing latex and suspender belts when they get brutally killed.

It is fine for entertainment to sexualise violence occasionally and in interesting ways, such as Gogo in Kill Bill, but the problem that video games have is that pretty much all women are portrayed in this way, while Kill Bill also had The Bride to counter balance Gogo. Also don't use Alyx has the excuse for the portrayal of women being fine in video games, because she is the only one.

The idea of Booth Babes is icky in the sense that marketing people think that all gamers are sex starved guys who will care about your game if there is a hot girl standing beside the demo station. Personally I find that insulting.

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

I dont know, the number is probably about the same as the amount of men that threaten to rape woman.

@Strife777: Super contradictory about Nigri, that I realize, about Tomb Raider - feel free to elaborate.

Personally I don't know what to think.

There is definitely sexism in some (I don't know about most) video games, that much is obvious. I think that condemning the entire industry is something that needs to stop.

I think that the audience needs to be properly identified, who we think the target age range should be (my guess is late teens to early 30s) and who we think that the companies who put out the offending products are targeting (my guess is early teens to mid twenties).

Men (I'm one) need to get a solid opinion from those that we think are being objectified. There seems to be a whole lot of male spokespersons for women. Honestly, I don't know if the OP is female or not (based off of profile pic and handle), though I'm not sure if that invalidates his/her opinion.

Living in a home with a gender bias in favor of women, I agree with the OP's comment about equality, it isn't equal. I'd like to hear from a woman what their version of the physically perfect woman is because my version of a physically perfect man isn't Marcus Phoenix or Batman (being that muscled looks really uncomfortable), it's probably closer to Nathan Drake.

One thing I definitely dislike is the sex sells association, that I will buy a product because it is associated with a sexy person by proximity. And both genders are guilty of this in differing amounts. However there isn't anything wrong with it to me morally because the buying decision still remains with me and unless the models accompanying the advertising are slaves being forced into the job then I don't really care about that either. If it were the case then I think that slavery would be a slightly larger issue, I can't tell because journalists/news people love to embellish to the point that hyperbole is now normal.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that we need to engineer a third asexual gender to mediate because we are clearly incapable of doing so ourselves.

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

@TaliciaDragonsong: Exactly. Lets get back to the gamez

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Yes, it is a lazy way to develop character. The idea of 'going through shit' is a lazy way to develop a character too.

Absofuckinglutely police sketch Jeff guy, I'm tired of it too.

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Here are just some lead characters, women, who are not raped.

• Cate Archer
• Samus Aran
• Chun-Li
• Mrs. Splosion Man
• Sarah
• Lightning
• Hawke
• Chell
• Bayonetta

@JasonR86 said:

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Yes, it is a lazy way to develop character. The idea of 'going through shit' is a lazy way to develop a character too.

On a more character development related note, what would you suggest is a better way to develop characters. The sum of a person's experiences and their reaction seems like a pretty good way to me. Better than explicit exposition surely?

I gotta stop reading threads like this. It just aggravates me and makes me shake my head.

@bio595 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Yes, it is a lazy way to develop character. The idea of 'going through shit' is a lazy way to develop a character too.

On a more character development related note, what would you suggest is a better way to develop characters. The sum of a person's experiences and their reaction seems like a pretty good way to me. Better than explicit exposition surely?

I don't know. I'm not a writer. I do know that I've developed as a person without suffering.

The people here complaining about the moaning and grunting have clearly never watched professional women's tennis matches, for example:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

That doesn't help anything dude. No matter how true the things you or Animasta say giving into sensationalism doesn't help discussing this topic.

So how about that Mass Effect 3 ending?

@JasonR86 said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

That doesn't help anything dude. No matter how true the things you or Animasta say giving into sensationalism doesn't help discussing this topic.

Well considering there is nothing to talk about in regards the "controversy" swirling around the games press (you know, the one they themselves made up for page hits), might as well take the time to educate people while I have their attention.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

that wasn't even what I was talking about, asshole; I do agree that child support laws are fucked (they are in the US as well) but insinuating that men are raped more than women is completely wrong. Are men raped? yes. Is it a problem? yes. Purely because of the idealized man who doesn't show any emotion besides rage and doesn't talk about his feelings because that's what women do and thus won't ever mention it because it makes them untough. feminism helps men as well, you know!

but hey I hate men apparently, so whatever!

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

that wasn't even what I was talking about, asshole; I do agree that child support laws are fucked (they are in the US as well) but insinuating that men are raped more than women is completely wrong. Are men raped? yes. Is it a problem? yes. Purely because of the idealized man who doesn't show any emotion besides rage and doesn't talk about his feelings because that's what women do and thus won't ever mention it because it makes them untough. feminism helps men as well, you know!

but hey I hate men apparently, so whatever!

but that's what feminism promotes, though. Feminists want men to be as they've always been - stoic, chivalrous, polite. Men are brought up from the beginning to not be a pussy. And considering the fact that at any point when a man has come forward in a public way to declare himself a victim, what do people do? They dogpile on the guy and tell him it was his fault, or that he enjoyed it (since he had a hard on, in the case of woman-on-man rape), and essentially tell him to pull up his panties and be a man.

I never said you hate men, either. I said that the problem with you is that you're tackling every issue from a "well I'm a woman and we need this, this, and this for equality," instead of sitting down and critically thinking from a humanist point of view. Gender inequality isn't just about women, it's about humanity. View the whole debate from that lens and you'll start to see where things are most truly fucked up.

@Oldirtybearon said:

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

Are you kidding me? That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. So a little Bay area liberalism/equal rights talk is WORSE than the opinions of North Korea's totalitarian regime? Worse than Ahmadinejad's threats towards Israel? Worse than neonazi and KKK beliefs of racism?

Also, let's remember that while Gamespot and GiantBomb are located in San Francisco, most of the other journalists who have criticized Tomb Raider are spread across the country.

@hoossy said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

Are you kidding me? That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. So a little Bay area liberalism/equal rights talk is WORSE than the opinions of North Korea's totalitarian regime? Worse than Ahmadinejad's threats towards Israel? Worse than neonazi and KKK beliefs of racism?

Also, let's remember that while Gamespot and GiantBomb are located in San Francisco, most of the other journalists who have criticized Tomb Raider are spread across the country.

Don't forget African warlords.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

that wasn't even what I was talking about, asshole; I do agree that child support laws are fucked (they are in the US as well) but insinuating that men are raped more than women is completely wrong. Are men raped? yes. Is it a problem? yes. Purely because of the idealized man who doesn't show any emotion besides rage and doesn't talk about his feelings because that's what women do and thus won't ever mention it because it makes them untough. feminism helps men as well, you know!

but hey I hate men apparently, so whatever!

but that's what feminism promotes, though. Feminists want men to be as they've always been - stoic, chivalrous, polite. Men are brought up from the beginning to not be a pussy. And considering the fact that at any point when a man has come forward in a public way to declare himself a victim, what do people do? They dogpile on the guy and tell him it was his fault, or that he enjoyed it (since he had a hard on, in the case of woman-on-man rape), and essentially tell him to pull up his panties and be a man.

I never said you hate men, either. I said that the problem with you is that you're tackling every issue from a "well I'm a woman and we need this, this, and this for equality," instead of sitting down and critically thinking from a humanist point of view. Gender inequality isn't just about women, it's about humanity. View the whole debate from that lens and you'll start to see where things are most truly fucked up.

Men don't have nearly the amount of problems women have in society though, and that's the truth.

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

that wasn't even what I was talking about, asshole; I do agree that child support laws are fucked (they are in the US as well) but insinuating that men are raped more than women is completely wrong. Are men raped? yes. Is it a problem? yes. Purely because of the idealized man who doesn't show any emotion besides rage and doesn't talk about his feelings because that's what women do and thus won't ever mention it because it makes them untough. feminism helps men as well, you know!

but hey I hate men apparently, so whatever!

but that's what feminism promotes, though. Feminists want men to be as they've always been - stoic, chivalrous, polite. Men are brought up from the beginning to not be a pussy. And considering the fact that at any point when a man has come forward in a public way to declare himself a victim, what do people do? They dogpile on the guy and tell him it was his fault, or that he enjoyed it (since he had a hard on, in the case of woman-on-man rape), and essentially tell him to pull up his panties and be a man.

I never said you hate men, either. I said that the problem with you is that you're tackling every issue from a "well I'm a woman and we need this, this, and this for equality," instead of sitting down and critically thinking from a humanist point of view. Gender inequality isn't just about women, it's about humanity. View the whole debate from that lens and you'll start to see where things are most truly fucked up.

Men don't have nearly the amount of problems women have in society though, and that's the truth.

I'm getting real tired of getting PMs about this conversation because of my unfortunate tie to it. Could you two just simply reply to one another?

@JasonR86 said:

@bio595 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Yes, it is a lazy way to develop character. The idea of 'going through shit' is a lazy way to develop a character too.

On a more character development related note, what would you suggest is a better way to develop characters. The sum of a person's experiences and their reaction seems like a pretty good way to me. Better than explicit exposition surely?

I don't know. I'm not a writer. I do know that I've developed as a person without suffering.

Fair enough

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

that wasn't even what I was talking about, asshole; I do agree that child support laws are fucked (they are in the US as well) but insinuating that men are raped more than women is completely wrong. Are men raped? yes. Is it a problem? yes. Purely because of the idealized man who doesn't show any emotion besides rage and doesn't talk about his feelings because that's what women do and thus won't ever mention it because it makes them untough. feminism helps men as well, you know!

but hey I hate men apparently, so whatever!

but that's what feminism promotes, though. Feminists want men to be as they've always been - stoic, chivalrous, polite. Men are brought up from the beginning to not be a pussy. And considering the fact that at any point when a man has come forward in a public way to declare himself a victim, what do people do? They dogpile on the guy and tell him it was his fault, or that he enjoyed it (since he had a hard on, in the case of woman-on-man rape), and essentially tell him to pull up his panties and be a man.

I never said you hate men, either. I said that the problem with you is that you're tackling every issue from a "well I'm a woman and we need this, this, and this for equality," instead of sitting down and critically thinking from a humanist point of view. Gender inequality isn't just about women, it's about humanity. View the whole debate from that lens and you'll start to see where things are most truly fucked up.

Men don't have nearly the amount of problems women have in society though, and that's the truth.

You say that, and yet you completely ignore what I've told you. Women are actually doing better than men in education, with close to 90% of young women graduating high school and starting a post-secondary career, while only 49% of young men do the same. Women also have special scholarships and privileges that make an education easier to obtain, while a young man with the same intellect, grades, and aspirations would just be shit out of luck for scholarships. That means more debt (if the young man even chooses a post-secondary career) and less money generated as income. Young boys are chastised for being rambunctious, high-energy, or taking the lead on social activities (natural traits for young boys, mind you), and told to sit down, sit still, and be quiet. I don't know if you have children (specifically boys), or if you had a childhood with young boys around, but during my generation "doctors" introduced Ritalin to children. Who suffered the most under that bullshit? Young boys.

So we're left with more and more young men feeling marginalized just by the public school system, dropping out more and more, and then becoming burdens on the system because, in the UK, laws were recently passed that made young men under 25 unemployable. Not unemployed, but unemployable.

Think about that for a second.

And please, please bring up the mythical pay gap. I double-dog-dare you.

Remember when Volgin grabbed Snake's dick in MGS3?

All this rape talk just made me think bout' that. I have nothing to add.

@Oldirtybearon said:

You need to remember where all of this angst is generally coming from - the Bay Area. California is, let's say, a dream-like world where people have unreasonable expectations, to say the least.

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

So true sadly.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

then what's your point? that just because women are more often threatened with rape in real life, that it's totally fine? That's a horrible point to make, I hope you know.

That wasn't the point of my post. I'm wondering why you're bringing up your point in this thread. It seems only loosely related to the topic. Yes, it does suck that women are raped at such high numbers across the world. It sucks that anyone ever suffers rape, man or woman. It really sucks. So...yeah, rape sucks. How does that tie into this thread though?

you'd be shocked to find that men are often raped more than women. That doesn't just include prison rape, or man-on-man rape, either. Women also rape men. Men just can't talk about it or have something done about it because the legal definition of "rape" (In the UK, at least) requires a penis to penetrate something. Also, it's totally valid for a woman to rape a young man (under the age of consent) and then legally force said boy to pay child support for the child that resulted from said rape. Go look this stuff up, dude. It's completely fucked.

What bothers me the most about people like @Animasta is that they'll beat the drum of equality, but their lyrics consist of giving more and being responsible for less.

that wasn't even what I was talking about, asshole; I do agree that child support laws are fucked (they are in the US as well) but insinuating that men are raped more than women is completely wrong. Are men raped? yes. Is it a problem? yes. Purely because of the idealized man who doesn't show any emotion besides rage and doesn't talk about his feelings because that's what women do and thus won't ever mention it because it makes them untough. feminism helps men as well, you know!

but hey I hate men apparently, so whatever!

but that's what feminism promotes, though. Feminists want men to be as they've always been - stoic, chivalrous, polite. Men are brought up from the beginning to not be a pussy. And considering the fact that at any point when a man has come forward in a public way to declare himself a victim, what do people do? They dogpile on the guy and tell him it was his fault, or that he enjoyed it (since he had a hard on, in the case of woman-on-man rape), and essentially tell him to pull up his panties and be a man.

I never said you hate men, either. I said that the problem with you is that you're tackling every issue from a "well I'm a woman and we need this, this, and this for equality," instead of sitting down and critically thinking from a humanist point of view. Gender inequality isn't just about women, it's about humanity. View the whole debate from that lens and you'll start to see where things are most truly fucked up.

Men don't have nearly the amount of problems women have in society though, and that's the truth.

You say that, and yet you completely ignore what I've told you. Women are actually doing better than men in education, with close to 90% of young women graduating high school and starting a post-secondary career, while only 49% of young men do the same. Women also have special scholarships and privileges that make an education easier to obtain, while a young man with the same intellect, grades, and aspirations would just be shit out of luck for scholarships. That means more debt (if the young man even chooses a post-secondary career) and less money generated as income. Young boys are chastised for being rambunctious, high-energy, or taking the lead on social activities (natural traits for young boys, mind you), and told to sit down, sit still, and be quiet. I don't know if you have children (specifically boys), or if you had a childhood with young boys around, but during my generation "doctors" introduced Ritalin to children. Who suffered the most under that bullshit? Young boys.

So we're left with more and more young men feeling marginalized just by the public school system, dropping out more and more, and then becoming burdens on the system because, in the UK, laws were recently passed that made young men under 25 unemployable. Not unemployed, but unemployable.

Think about that for a second.

And please, please bring up the mythical pay gap. I double-dog-dare you.

well considering that I got money from the government and I am still listed as a male... boom? and Ritalin, really? that's something you had to bring up? First of all, I never knew anyone growing up who took ritalin, so... secondly, even if that WAS true, that's still not an issue that effects all boys everywhere in the world (I don't know how old you are, because I'm p. sure it doesn't happen much anymore)

also here, mythical pay gap my ass: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

@LiquidPrince: If you're tired of it stop making new fucking posts about it. There's nothing to be gained by trying to have a rational conversation on the internet. Stop making posts about it and people will forget in a week and move on to the next topic of the week.

@Jimbo said:

@OllyOxenFree said:

@Stete said:

Why? Because nothing generates attention and page views than a little bit of short sighted controversy.

That's the one movie where a dude anally rapes a woman, right? ART!!!

It's down to context like pretty much everything else. How something is presented (is it trying to discomfort or titillate the viewer?), how it contributes to the whole (are they going somewhere with it, or is it there for its own sake?) and if the whole is worthwhile (does the end justify the means?). It's not that rape (or threat of) is off-limits in art - it's that if you are gonna use it, you'd better take it seriously and make damn sure you get it right. Tomb Raider might even pull it off in the game itself, but they haven't done themselves any favours. They had next to no chance with how the presentation was perceived because -even though it's a reboot- it's still Lara Croft, whose character bio to date amounts to 'Walking tits'. It's probably not a scene which should be leveraged for marketing (because it removes it from the wider context), and the Exec Producer destroyed any credibility 'the whole' might have had when he patronisingly stated that you are "kind of like her helper".

Agreed. Letting slip any information about this rape scene early was a huge mistake and invites everyone to speculate out of context. And since nobody seems to have any confidence that mainstream video games are emotionally mature enough to tackle these kind of issues, myself included, the overwhelming opinion is that it will be a disaster. The standard video game is a tactless, tasteless grab-bag of shock tactics and boobs and the idea that a reboot of the game with the most famous boobs of all will herald a new age of maturity in video game narrative is ludicrous.

The wider question is whether we will ever be proud of our medium's ability to deal with stuff like this.

@JasonR86 said:

@bio595 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Yes, it is a lazy way to develop character. The idea of 'going through shit' is a lazy way to develop a character too.

On a more character development related note, what would you suggest is a better way to develop characters. The sum of a person's experiences and their reaction seems like a pretty good way to me. Better than explicit exposition surely?

I don't know. I'm not a writer. I do know that I've developed as a person without suffering.

I doubt people would rush to buy a video game about your kind of life. Or mine. Strife does make characters interesting. It is a succinct and effective way to explain a characters motivations to the audience, to give them some kind of cause or reason to be in the story at all. Without it the story would be boooring.

@Insectecutor said:

@JasonR86 said:

@bio595 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@pekoe212 said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

tell me how many male characters in video games get threatened with rape and we can compare that to the amount of women characters that get threatened with rape.

I wonder

There's a huge variety of forms of violence in the world. Men and women share several forms. They also experience forms of violence exclusive to one another. So I don't see you're point as being...well, poignant.

Well, guess what, I would like a realistic female protagonist who doesn't have to put up with sexual harassment or attempted rape in order to "develop her character." Most female protagonist are hypersexualized cartoony type characters. But the games that are more narrative-heavy and attempt to develop the female protagonist's character inevitably go thru all the "we must put her in situations where she feels vulnerable and where men try to do awful things to her because she's a woman". Why can't I just have my power fantasy???? Many women experience rape and harassment in their daily lives, the last thing they want is to go through that again in a video game -- which they are playing to have FUN. Playing as a female protagonist, I want to feel EMPOWERED as a woman and have the fantasy of living in a world without that shit.

Yes, it is a lazy way to develop character. The idea of 'going through shit' is a lazy way to develop a character too.

On a more character development related note, what would you suggest is a better way to develop characters. The sum of a person's experiences and their reaction seems like a pretty good way to me. Better than explicit exposition surely?

I don't know. I'm not a writer. I do know that I've developed as a person without suffering.

I doubt people would rush to buy a video game about your kind of life. Or mine. Strife does make characters interesting. It is a succinct and effective way to explain a characters motivations to the audience, to give them some kind of cause or reason to be in the story at all. Without it the story would be boooring.

Cliches are boring. Stories don't have to have character development that is based around a 'normal' life. But they don't have to be formulaic either.

@Animasta: JasonR86 asked us to leave him out of our discussion, so starting a new quote tree. Cool?

Now, as far as statistical overview, just a cursory google search brought this up from the NCPA.

Then there's this article from the Wall Street Journal that spells it out in the article's strap.

So really, that's all there is to it. Maternity leave, less working hours, and prioritization of relationships and "happiness" over careers is why it appears, on the surface, that women earn less than men do. But it's not true.

@CL60 said:

Because people are retarded. Oh noes! A female video game character is getting hurt! This is some of the most sexist stuff I've ever seen! All the while Isaac gets his head mutalated through his eyeball with a needle and people rave about how amazing it is, but a female!? That's too far.

Exactly it's almost as if the people making a big deal out of the whole thing are more sexist than anyone.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta: JasonR86 asked us to leave him out of our discussion, so starting a new quote tree. Cool?

Now, as far as statistical overview, just a cursory google search brought this up from the NCPA.

Then there's this article from the Wall Street Journal that spells it out in the article's strap.

So really, that's all there is to it. Maternity leave, less working hours, and prioritization of relationships and "happiness" over careers is why it appears, on the surface, that women earn less than men do. But it's not true.

the NCPA is a conservative think tank, so I hesitate to use them as a credible resource

especially in regards to women, because conservatives in the US hate women. and that 'article' is merely an opinion piece, so you'll have to do better than that.

This is super-constructive. A bunch of people ignoring other peoples' arguments, instead fighting against what they assume the other peoples' arguments are. Fantastic!

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta: JasonR86 asked us to leave him out of our discussion, so starting a new quote tree. Cool?

Now, as far as statistical overview, just a cursory google search brought this up from the NCPA.

Then there's this article from the Wall Street Journal that spells it out in the article's strap.

So really, that's all there is to it. Maternity leave, less working hours, and prioritization of relationships and "happiness" over careers is why it appears, on the surface, that women earn less than men do. But it's not true.

the NCPA is a conservative think tank, so I hesitate to use them as a credible resource

especially in regards to women, because conservatives in the US hate women. and that 'article' is merely an opinion piece, so you'll have to do better than that.

I see. Alright, how about a lecture given at the CATO institute, or are you going to dismiss the author's findings out of hand as well?

Honestly if you're going to ignore science at this point, we're done.

@Oldirtybearon:

Dude the Cato institute is a libertarian/objectivist leaning think tank. They have an agenda.

Its not a great source to prove your point.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta: JasonR86 asked us to leave him out of our discussion, so starting a new quote tree. Cool?

Now, as far as statistical overview, just a cursory google search brought this up from the NCPA.

Then there's this article from the Wall Street Journal that spells it out in the article's strap.

So really, that's all there is to it. Maternity leave, less working hours, and prioritization of relationships and "happiness" over careers is why it appears, on the surface, that women earn less than men do. But it's not true.

the NCPA is a conservative think tank, so I hesitate to use them as a credible resource

especially in regards to women, because conservatives in the US hate women. and that 'article' is merely an opinion piece, so you'll have to do better than that.

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Animasta

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta: JasonR86 asked us to leave him out of our discussion, so starting a new quote tree. Cool?

Now, as far as statistical overview, just a cursory google search brought this up from the NCPA.

Then there's this article from the Wall Street Journal that spells it out in the article's strap.

So really, that's all there is to it. Maternity leave, less working hours, and prioritization of relationships and "happiness" over careers is why it appears, on the surface, that women earn less than men do. But it's not true.

the NCPA is a conservative think tank, so I hesitate to use them as a credible resource

especially in regards to women, because conservatives in the US hate women. and that 'article' is merely an opinion piece, so you'll have to do better than that.

Yeah using a Conservative think tanks findings as a source, especially with Republicans' bombardment of women's rights this last year, doesn't form a very compelling argument.

To be fair though any politically based think tank is a bad source, liberal, conservative, or otherwise.

@JasonR86 said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Animasta

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta: JasonR86 asked us to leave him out of our discussion, so starting a new quote tree. Cool?

Now, as far as statistical overview, just a cursory google search brought this up from the NCPA.

Then there's this article from the Wall Street Journal that spells it out in the article's strap.

So really, that's all there is to it. Maternity leave, less working hours, and prioritization of relationships and "happiness" over careers is why it appears, on the surface, that women earn less than men do. But it's not true.

the NCPA is a conservative think tank, so I hesitate to use them as a credible resource

especially in regards to women, because conservatives in the US hate women. and that 'article' is merely an opinion piece, so you'll have to do better than that.

Yeah using a Conservative think tanks findings as a source, especially with Republicans' bombardment of women's rights this last year, doesn't form a very compelling argument.

To be fair though any politically based think tank is a bad source, liberal, conservative, or otherwise.

true

@Oldirtybearon: and yeah, cato institute is libertarian which means I trust them even less

@Animasta: So basically anything that challenges your perception of reality is met with hostility or ignorance. Good to know.