mdnthrvst

@Legion_: It is just a theory; we can't be certain whether Vivec and Talos were truly omnipotent or their followers were just lying. But it's probably true. In a way, you have to take everything with a grain of salt; you can never be certain of anything unless you see it with your own eyes - Alduin was thrown through a Dragon Break, the Heart of Lorkhan is destroyed, Martin Septim is dead... that kind of stuff.

CHIM is more than likely true, for it has been consistently referred to multiple times, but its primary source, the Thirty Six Lessons of Vivec, is rife with propaganda, secrets, and outright falsehoods. Pretty much all of the pure history of the Lessons is accepted to be a lie, but for some reason people trust the metaphysics of it infallibly. Then again, Vivec IS a god.

@SgtSphynx: No, because player characters don't have CHIM. Mucking around with console commands or mods is just a factor of it being a video game, it isn't recognized by the lore.

@takayamasama: The Dunmer worship the Anticipations as they always have, only now they don't insult them with such a condescending label.

Azura, Boethiah and Mephala.

Fuck, I should've been here hours ago. Reposting my history of the universe just for completeness' sake:

Before the creation of the Mundus, before there was really anything, there was Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Stasis and Change. Their interplay formed the Aurbis, which is everything that exists - imagine two great bubbles that touch and form a perfect circle, a rough metaphor from Vivec himself.

Early in the history of the Aurbis, Anuiel and Sithis came into being, respectively the "souls" of Anu and Padomay, and the first entities with any awareness or agency (though Sithis is obviously the more active of the two, presiding over the Dark Brotherhood as he does.)

Anuiel and Sithis in turn created Auri-El and Lorkhan. Auri-El is known to humans as Akatosh, and Lorkhan is known to Imperials as Shezarr and Nords as Shor. These were the first of the et'Ada, or the Original Spirits; before the creation of the Mundus there was no distinction between Aedra and Daedra. Others soon came into being following them.

For some reason, the Padomaic Lorkhan came up with the idea to form a physical realm, with mortal creatures that could create life, be bound by physical laws, and also die. For some reason Akatosh accepted. What happens next is the basis for most conflict in the Elder Scrolls, in some form or another.

Magnus drafted the plans for the Mundus, and all the et'Ada besides those who would become Daedra - Lorkhan, the Eight Divines, and the numerous lesser et'Ada - sacrificed their immortality to create the Mundus, which is the physical realm of the Aurbis. Fifteen et'Ada took no part in this process and retained the full breadth of their power, becoming known as the Daedric Princes; the greatest of the et'Ada who sacrificed themselves became known as the Aedra.

There were, however, more et'Ada than the famous "gods"; all the minor and less powerful Original Spirits who didn't become Aedra or Daedra became the first mortals of this realm, known as the Ehlnofey. Some of the Ehlnofey were horrified at having been torn from divinity; these would become the Elves. Men, however, did not believe themselves to be descended from the Aedra; they believed they were created from nothing but Lorkhan, and thus owed their entire existence to him. In their opinion, Lorkhan was the hero of mankind, which is why Shor and Shezarr play such a large role in Human mythology.

They fought. The Elven champion, a lesser Aedra known as Trinimac, destroyed Lorkhan, flinging his body into the sky where it would become the moons Masser and Secunda, and shooting his Heart on an arrow into the East, where it would land in Vvardenfell, to be found centuries later.

You asked about the Daedra, so I'll go into them a little bit. A Daedric Prince's Plane of Oblivion is that Daedric Prince, it encompasses their entire being and is completely subject to their will. They are like sentient planets that exist outside the physical universe, but can project themselves into it, and influence it. This is why Azura's realm is a blindingly beautiful palace of rose petals and Molag Bal's realm a fetid, decaying mirror of Nirn, which he always wishes to conquer. There are of course minor pockets of Oblivion that aren't subject to a Prince, such as Mankar Camoran's Paradise, though since Oblivion is infinite it makes sense that powerful individuals might mold parts of it to their will. To destroy a Daedric Prince would be to destroy an entire dimension, when the only beings powerful enough to do so are the Daedra themselves, and, as we see with Jyggalag, even they can't seem to do such a thing, instead relying on trickery.

However, Aedra can become Daedra, as evidenced by Trinimac, who was consumed by Boethiah and transformed into Malacath. Mortals can also become Daedra, as Jyggalag/Sheogorath the First bestowed the position of Sheogorath onto the Hero of Kvatch at the end of the Shivering Isles. This suggests that the status of Daedric Princehood isn't as rigid as it might seem, or as rigid as that of the Aedra, who are defined by their sacrifice.

I hope this was enlightening.

@steeeevil: This is a simple one. CHIM is a letter in Ehlnofex, the language of the Ehlnofey, which is the language that the actual Elder Scrolls are written in.

CHIM roughly means "Royalty", but the funny thing is Ehlnofex letters can only be directly perceived with great difficulty, twisting and changing and defying perception; looking at an Elder Scroll is nearly impossible for this very reason. To look upon the letter of CHIM is to see a Tower that threatens to break at the slightest lapse in concentration; much like the phenomenon of CHIM, wherein an individual threatens to be wiped out of the Godhead's dream at any moment if their concentration and willpower lapses.

@TheHT: This is quite a story.

Before the creation of the Mundus, before there was really anything, there was Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Stasis and Change. Their interplay formed the Aurbis, which is everything that exists - imagine two great bubbles that touch and form a perfect circle, a rough metaphor from Vivec himself.

Early in the history of the Aurbis, Anuiel and Sithis came into being, respectively the "souls" of Anu and Padomay, and the first entities with any awareness or agency (though Sithis is obviously the more active of the two, presiding over the Dark Brotherhood as he does.)

Anuiel and Sithis in turn created Auri-El and Lorkhan. Auri-El is known to humans as Akatosh, and Lorkhan is known to Imperials as Shezarr and Nords as Shor. These were the first of the et'Ada, or the Original Spirits; before the creation of the Mundus there was no distinction between Aedra and Daedra. Others soon came into being following them.

For some reason, the Padomaic Lorkhan came up with the idea to form a physical realm, with mortal creatures that could create life, be bound by physical laws, and also die. For some reason Akatosh accepted. What happens next is the basis for most conflict in the Elder Scrolls, in some form or another.

Magnus drafted the plans for the Mundus, and all the et'Ada besides those who would become Daedra - Lorkhan, the Eight Divines, and the numerous lesser et'Ada - sacrificed their immortality to create the Mundus, which is the physical realm of the Aurbis. Fifteen et'Ada took no part in this process and retained the full breadth of their power, becoming known as the Daedric Princes; the greatest of the et'Ada who sacrificed themselves became known as the Aedra.

There were, however, more et'Ada than the famous "gods"; all the minor and less powerful Original Spirits who didn't become Aedra or Daedra became the first mortals of this realm, known as the Ehlnofey. Some of the Ehlnofey were horrified at having been torn from divinity; these would become the Elves. Men, however, did not believe themselves to be descended from the Aedra; they believed they were created from nothing but Lorkhan, and thus owed their entire existence to him. In their opinion, Lorkhan was the hero of mankind, which is why Shor and Shezarr play such a large role in Human mythology.

They fought. The Elven champion, a lesser Aedra known as Trinimac, destroyed Lorkhan, flinging his body into the sky where it would become the moons Masser and Secunda, and shooting his Heart on an arrow into the East, where it would land in Vvardenfell, to be found centuries later.

You asked about the Daedra, so I'll go into them a little bit. A Daedric Prince's Plane of Oblivion is that Daedric Prince, it encompasses their entire being and is completely subject to their will. They are like sentient planets that exist outside the physical universe, but can project themselves into it, and influence it. This is why Azura's realm is a blindingly beautiful palace of rose petals and Molag Bal's realm a fetid, decaying mirror of Nirn, which he always wishes to conquer. There are of course minor pockets of Oblivion that aren't subject to a Prince, such as Mankar Camoran's Paradise, though since Oblivion is infinite it makes sense that powerful individuals might mold parts of it to their will. To destroy a Daedric Prince would be to destroy an entire dimension, when the only beings powerful enough to do so are the Daedra themselves, and, as we see with Jyggalag, even they can't seem to do such a thing, instead relying on trickery.

However, Aedra can become Daedra, as evidenced by Trinimac, who was consumed by Boethiah and transformed into Malacath. Mortals can also become Daedra, as Jyggalag/Sheogorath the First bestowed the position of Sheogorath onto the Hero of Kvatch at the end of the Shivering Isles. This suggests that the status of Daedric Princehood isn't as rigid as it might seem, or as rigid as that of the Aedra, who are defined by their sacrifice.

I hope this was enlightening.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@mdnthrvst: Thanks for dropping knowledge on the whole CHIM thing. That said, I'm not sure if I want to take it as truth. Kinda trivializes everything you do in the Elder Scrolls series. I'm not sure I like that very much.

Eh, I don't think so. It's a Matrix situation - dying and living within the simulation still has relevance for that simulation, which as far as anyone knows is reality.

You're right that it's probably total bullshit, but it's fun bullshit nonetheless.

You should read the Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec.

@TheHT: Amusing that this has turned into Elder Scrolls Lore Q&A, but I guess I could explain.

Daedric Princes cannot be killed. They are not alive in the first place. When you "kill" an Atronach or a Dremora or whatever, you're basically destroying its physical projection in Nirn and sending its essence back to Oblivion, where it is eventually reformed.

At the end of Oblivion, when Mehrunes Dagon tried to burst into the Imperial City, Akatosh could only force him back into the Deadlands, his Plane of Oblivion. If a Daedra could've been killed, it would've happened there.

Sheogorath is a special case. Jyggalag, the Prince of Order you fight at the end, IS Sheogorath - they are one and the same. The other Princes put a curse on Jyggalag that forced him to become Sheogorath, and he could only turn back into his true self during the Greymarch.

When you defeat Jyggalag, he basically grants the player character Princehood, and you become Sheogorath to replace the old one, who apparently went back to being Jyggalag full-time. It's why Sheogorath in Skyrim is blind - Oblivion's Sheogorath told the PC he would make him so in dialogue.

@matti00: I wrote a pastebin for it a long time ago:

http://pastebin.com/xXk4YYXj

That's very detailed and involved, but it boils down to this:

The Godhead exists outside of the universe, and the Elder Scrolls is his dream. Some individuals of great willpower can realize that they are projections in the Godhead's dream, and one of two things happens - they "Zero-Sum" and blink out of existence (it's called that because of a metaphor I go into in the paste), or resist their own undoing with their sheer egos and gain the power of a lucid dreamer. That is, omnipotence.

Or, CHIM could all be total bullcrap and Vivec just pulling our leg. That's the thing about Elder Scrolls lore - you desperately cling to these maddening little snippets and try to suss out what you can, but any single piece of it could be misinformation, deception, or propaganda. There are issues elsewhere with the Thirty-Six Lessons that make it totally possible this isn't even true WITHIN the Elder Scrolls universe.

Yeah, just read my pastebin thing, it's way more detailed, and gets into the specifics of the Thirty-Six Lessons, where all this madness comes from.

Of course, I wouldn't have had to bring up CHIM if it weren't for that stupid blogger and his stupid metaphysics, but I guess he ultimately wins for sheer popularity.

@believer258: It's like Dark Souls to an extent, honestly - the story of Dark Souls, if you're being brutally honest, is thus:

Chosen Undead hikes through Lordran and kills a bunch of creatures, collects souls, puts them in a bowl, kills God, and either kills himself or becomes a Dark Lord.

But there's more to it than that, obviously - in Dark Souls it's item descriptions, in The Elder Scrolls it's books.

@HistoryInRust: That would be a neat idea - still, as you can see from my post count, I'm not really invested in the Giant Bomb community.

Would it go in the Skyrim forum?

Would it be just us talking down to everyone and people posting snarky comments of "you care about this more than the developers"?