N2NOther's forum posts

#1 Posted by N2NOther (83 posts) -

I always feel lame for being upset about the loss of a personality I've never met but I've been a fan of the bombcast for the past 6 years and I absolutely adored TANG. I can't even imagine how those close to him must feel.

So sorry for the world's loss.

#2 Edited by N2NOther (83 posts) -
#3 Edited by N2NOther (83 posts) -

@chplusink said:

As for the DRM. Guess what? Game distribution is shifting away from physical discs, towards digital. Have you thought about what happens when digital copies inevitably replace physical copies? When was the last time a company allowed you to resell or turn in a used digital copy of something for cash? "Yea, I'm done with this T.I. album. iTunes, give me $4.99." At least they're trying to flesh out a system that allows borrowing and possible resale, before that happens.

Additionally, a musical album maybe requires a few subjectively "skilled" artists (and possibly a few objectively skilled audio engineers) to record, but it absolutely requires several objectively skilled employees (as much as several hundred) to create a triple A video game. The size of these operations now require significant financial support to successfully deliver quality games. And the financial compensation is not like the, comparable in operational-size, movie industry. The movie industry gets revenue from ticket sales and physical/digital copy sales. The gaming industry only sees the single purchase.

My point here is that many developers have been wanting some used game control for a while (and these are the guys making your beloved games). Too much money in the used games market is going to middle men (Game Stop, Best Buy, etc.) and not the developers who put their blood and sweat into the games. The issue is more complex than, "Hey, I live in fairy tale bubble land and I want to play more video games without having to pay more." I believe a new method of game resale is needed when the creators of content are no longer receiving proper financial compensation for increased usage of their content. Whether Microsoft's method will be a step in the right direction has yet to be determined, because we haven't even heard the details (they are probably still working the last details out). So untangle those panties until we hear the details...at which point, you can twist and deform your undergarments however you want.

I can tell you from experience that the grips, gaffers, FX, craft services, wardrobe, hair and make-up, the extras, most if not all of the actors and all of the "objectively skilled employees" that are required to make a AAA blockbuster film, or even an independent film, do not get any money from the those ticket sales, DVD sales, TV and streaming rights etc. They collect their pay when the job is done and that's it. The ones who collect from the ticket sales and such are the studios, producers and SOMETIMES the directors and actors. Again, the hundreds of other people involved with making the films don't.

My point here is that your argument, no matter how well intentioned, is flat-out wrong and doesn't have any bearing on what is the issue at hand.

So what if the middlemen are making the profit? They saw a need for a market, created that market and are profiting from it. What people keep missing is that used games don't procreate and make more used games. Used games are there after a new game has been sold. You can never have more used games than new games sold (stolen games don't equate here because it's not an epidemic) and I can tell you as someone who has bought many a used game, that I wasn't going to buy a specific game new because I wasn't interested enough in it to pay full price. Also, most retailers have the policy that a used game can be returned for a full refund within the first 7 days. So if I buy a game I wasn't interested in enough to pay full retail for, and it turns out that I was right, I can return it and get something else.

I have been doing private sales via eBay to buy and sell my used games and this so-called "plan", as it stands now means that private sales will become extinct. I don't buy many digital games because A) I don't want to wait the hours that it would take to download a full game, B) I like having the option, which I often take, of selling my game when I'm done with it.

No one should be entitled to money from used sales except the two parties involved in the sale.

I am all for supporting developers with purchasing their games, if their game is something I want to pay full price for or can afford to at the time of release. Unfortunately, life doesn't always work that way.

#4 Edited by N2NOther (83 posts) -

@n2nother said:

Ah, straw man. I guess you're going there.

People's negative reactions are based on the media reporting direct quotes from people like Phil Harrions, a VP at Microsoft. So yes, I am guilty of assuming that Phil Harrison knows what he's talking about and that Microsoft planned exactly who would sit down with the media, who would give the message and what that messaging would be.

He hadn't said what he said to several outlets, then no one would be reacting. Notice how this didn't happen after Sony's PS4 announcement, or if it did it was much quieter? People are reacting to being told very specifically one thing and it was only AFTER the vocal, "immature" reaction that MS came back and made a PR puff quote that kinda, sorta said that the thing they heard earlier was not really what they meant. In this day and age, gamers are much smarter than you are giving them credit for and can see that this is them trying to put out or control a fire they started. You have two respected members of the staff of Giant Bomb calling them out on this but yet you get on your high horse like you the beacon of rationality by making sweeping generalizations and blanket statements. No one needs a lecture on maturity. It's the internet, it's a public forum and unless anyone is saying hateful things, it's harmless. Well, except to you since you think it's hurting oneself. Not sure how that works, though.

Again, I watched the Xbox One reveal because I was looking forward to what MS had to say about the next generation. And up until I read the things coming out of Phil Harrison's mouth and watched the Adam Sessler interview with Matt Booty, the General Manager of Redmond Games Studios:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y508_rXPogQ

About 1 minute in even he says, "If you want to play the game on your profile it's as if you're buying the game." These are MS mouthpieces saying these things out loud, to press. Are we not supposed to take these things at face value?

I guess this doesn't compute in the land of straw men.

I find it funny that you probably saw someone say straw man one time and now you just whip it out in a discussion even though you have no idea what it means. It's the same as when you talk about sweeping generalizations while you sit and do the same thing. It's impossible to have a discussion with someone that doesn't understand or use logic, especially when you simply bring up things that are irrelevant to what I've been saying. It's almost like you're having a conversation with yourself just to convince yourself that you shouldn't feel insecure about your initial gut reaction to something as insignificant as the reveal of a consumer electronics device.

You have not responded to anything I've said, but instead just mashed together a series of disjointed sentences that don't make any coherent sense. Then you use a quote from a video as if it's some kind of proof to a claim you haven' t made. In fact, I pretty much agreed with what you said two responses ago because it didn't even have to do with with the point I'm getting at, yet you respond with a completely different set of discussion points.

So to get back to what I was actually saying, even if we somehow knew everything about the new consoles and what would happen after their release, you still have absolutely no argument as to why certain facts about the console are bad other than simply because you think so. That isn't an argument, that's just an opinion based off of emotion which is hardly proof of anything but your own character. That's the entire point of what I'm saying.

So unless you actually want to read and respond to what I'm saying instead of just going on about more nonsense, I won't be responding and repeating myself for the 5th time.

First of all, what you are doing is exactly what a straw man argument is. Deflecting or insulting doesn't take away from that fact. I am replying to exactly what you're saying. You're saying that the reaction to what MS has been saying about the issue is immature and irrational and I'm giving specific examples as to why people are reacting the way they are. There is NOTHING irrational about reacting to what has been said when it's their quoted stance on the matter. No amount of back pedaling or PR "no further comment" responses by MS can change what was said has gotten a negative reaction and justifiably so.

"Something as insignificant as the reveal of a consumer electronics device." Hmm. I find it funny that you say that when you're on a website dedicated to talking about a variety of said "electronic devices," insulting people who have a reaction you don't like about "something as insignificant as the reveal of a consumer electronics device."

My argument is that having a gut reaction, based on the information given at the time, which in case you miss it, is to INFORM the readers of features and ideas being set forth on this new console. Based on that information - which again - was given by people who are actually involved in the project, people are having a negative reaction and there is nothing immature or irrational about that. If this was before the reveal, like the months leading up to it when these very same rumors were flooding news outlets, then I would and do agree with you. Why get upset about a rumor. But unfortunately those rumors were true and MS was saying so across the board. Then they said something else, and something else and the finally said effectively, "we will say more later." It's absolutely fantastic and your prerogative to not get upset about it. And like I said, I respect your "wait and see" approach to that information, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with going the other way. No matter how much you like to insist that it is.

If you were as rational and logical as you think you are, you would just admit that there is nothing wrong with feeling and reacting this way and be done. But I highly doubt that.

#5 Posted by N2NOther (83 posts) -

@n2nother said:

It has no bearing on the console and the games for sure, but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that MS clearly has or had something in mind that didn't sit well with a lot of people, myself included. Maybe you keep your mouth shut when something bothers you, others don't. It hardly makes the immature for voicing their opinion. And it doesn't make you any more mature because you don't. Different people handle things in different ways. Protests exist for a reason. If they never got results, people wouldn't do them. Just like you say we have no idea how this will all turn out, you have no idea if the extremely vocal and apparently large swathe of gamers will have no affect on MS's or Sony's or anyone else's decision.

Also, why wait until the console comes out? Everyone has a voice and should make it heard whenever they can. If there is even a 1% chance that this can make a change then that chance should be taken. Waiting until the console comes out is too late.

What seems to be missing from your sweeping judgments and generalizations is that the reason why people are upset is because they WANT to get the Xbox One. They WANT to play all of those games because they matter. The reason they're upset is because if MS does go through with this terrible idea, that means they won't be getting the console and won't be playing those games. It's better to try and nip in the bud before it's too late.

Some people could voice their opinions in a better, more articulate way, but they don't have to. As much as you might wish they would.

You aren't really arguing anything against my point. Instead, you just seem to be trying to convince yourself that your reaction is justified. Sure, reacting to such a small bit of information is a viable way to react, it may be extremely foolish, but you have every right to be as foolish as you want. Yes, voicing an opinion can sometimes be a viable way to get things changed, there's no doubting that. In fact, pretty much everything you said there makes perfect sense. That is why I don't think you understand the core of what I'm saying.

People's negative reactions are based off an assumption that they know something about the new systems, when in fact they know absolutely nothing compared to what they will know in 6 months to a year. Anyone with a head on their shoulders can see that passing judgments with such little information is simply idiotic. Part of being mature is learning how to assess, react, and make decisions with reason and not simply spur of the moment emotion, and this is obviously something "the internet" and the vocal part of the gaming community is not very good at. So, like I said before, have all the negative gut reactions you want. Kick and scream when you don't get your way even though you have absolutely no logical argument as to why the thing you're mad about is so horrible. React however you want, but just realize you're only hurting yourself at the end of the day.

Ah, straw man. I guess you're going there.

People's negative reactions are based on the media reporting direct quotes from people like Phil Harrions, a VP at Microsoft. So yes, I am guilty of assuming that Phil Harrison knows what he's talking about and that Microsoft planned exactly who would sit down with the media, who would give the message and what that messaging would be.

He hadn't said what he said to several outlets, then no one would be reacting. Notice how this didn't happen after Sony's PS4 announcement, or if it did it was much quieter? People are reacting to being told very specifically one thing and it was only AFTER the vocal, "immature" reaction that MS came back and made a PR puff quote that kinda, sorta said that the thing they heard earlier was not really what they meant. In this day and age, gamers are much smarter than you are giving them credit for and can see that this is them trying to put out or control a fire they started. You have two respected members of the staff of Giant Bomb calling them out on this but yet you get on your high horse like you the beacon of rationality by making sweeping generalizations and blanket statements. No one needs a lecture on maturity. It's the internet, it's a public forum and unless anyone is saying hateful things, it's harmless. Well, except to you since you think it's hurting oneself. Not sure how that works, though.

Again, I watched the Xbox One reveal because I was looking forward to what MS had to say about the next generation. And up until I read the things coming out of Phil Harrison's mouth and watched the Adam Sessler interview with Matt Booty, the General Manager of Redmond Games Studios:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y508_rXPogQ

About 1 minute in even he says, "If you want to play the game on your profile it's as if you're buying the game." These are MS mouthpieces saying these things out loud, to press. Are we not supposed to take these things at face value?

I guess this doesn't compute in the land of straw men.

#6 Posted by N2NOther (83 posts) -

@doctorwelch:

@president_barackbar: If you saw my first post you would notice the very first thing I mentioned is how it is the vocal minority of the internet. Also, I'm not saying you have to be logical or reasonable when looking at their announcement. You can do whatever you want, and if you choose to react that way I'm simply saying you're only hurting yourself.

If the games come and they are good people will buy the console. So getting all up in arms about an hour long press conference 6 months before the thing comes out is simply a waste of energy.

@n2nother said:

The entire purpose of the interviews done post reveal were to shed more light on the console, generate buzz, and get people talking about Xbox One. The information they have is what is causing gamers to "freak out" and "bitch on the internet". I am a rational person, I have always been a multi-console owner, and I spend most of my gaming time with my 360. That being said, I think everything MS has done in the past week is beyond absurd.

Sure Sony hasn't been THAT up front about their used game stance beyond saying it would be up to the publisher. But they also didn't have executives saying "There will be a fee", then having a rep on Twitter saying, "there is no fee," etc. Of course in a ideal situation we would all just sit tight and wait for more information, but the messaging we have received has, in fact, been wholly negative to a LARGE portion of people.

Like Alex points out in his piece, it's not like they couldn't have known about the used game issue. This rumor was leaked MONTHS ago and people have been vocal about it. But as a rumor, then it's very easy to be rational and say "OK, well that's just a rumor" and reserve judgment. But guess what, judgment time has begun because these things are no longer rumors. They have been said, OUT LOUD by people like Phil Harrison, a friggin' VICE PRESIDENT at Microsoft. Rationale and logic would dictate that he, of all people, know what is going on. So by that token, why shouldn't people be upset about the things he is saying when they are clearly upsetting to the people that are upset by it? Then coupled with the PR nonsense like "Reports have been inaccurate and incomplete" and then being told that that's all we have until someone makes them accurate and complete at a later date.

I appreciate your stance of "wait and see" but these "immature" folks you talk about? Some of them are quite smart and can see through PR bs and say to themselves "well that can't be good. Why one earth would they not clear this up now so we can all move on or make a final decision?" For me the answer is that MS wasn't expecting the "immature" and "irrational" "internet bitching" and have decided to look at their upcoming strategy again and figure out what to do before E3. You don't issue a comment if it's irrational. You issue a comment when it's an actual, valid complaint.

And I can tell you, as someone who will be attending E3 as press, that it has tainted by perception going into E3. See, though I am press, for now I don't get paid for it. I have a full-time job, not affiliated with the video game industry, and as such I have to pay money for everything I get. I make my purchasing decisions based on what I know about a product and right now, what I know about the Xbox One isn't good at all. That's subjective and objective. Nothing they showed or have talked about after the show has appealed to me as a gamer, as an aspiring journalist and ultimately a consumer.

Certain statements after the press conference weren't handled as well as they could have been, that is certain, but that has literally no bearing on how the console is going to turn out and what games we are going to play on them. In reality, everything they've said about used games has absolutely no effect on the current used games market. The only difference as of right now is that we don't need disks after they install, but everything else is exactly as it's always been.

Even if Microsoft completely eliminated the used games market, reacting like spoiled children doesn't do anything but make you look like a spoiled child. Instead, be an adult and just don't buy the console if you don't like it. Then, if enough people speak with their dollars, the console will fail and the best policy will emerge as the one people feel comfortable supporting with their money. In fact, I would compare the reactions to those who say they want to move to Canada because of Health Care reform. People talk about sticking with the PC and not buying a new console because of the used games problem, when the very service that provides them with PC games has been implementing the policy they're scared of for years.

Like I said before, it's fine to be skeptical or make predictions, but you are only hurting yourself by being irrational and acting immature. I love games, but it really saddens me that so much of the audience has no concept of what matters in their own hobby (hint: the games). Also, it doesn't make me feel too confident about the so called "press" if people that are willing to make such wild factual claims about things they have no way of knowing are attending E3. In fact, I've said this for a while, but I think a large reason why the audience for games is so immature and illogical is because those who cover them are equally immature and illogical. Everyone is so quick to anger and judgement instead of being calm and using reason to assess a situation, and this problem is constantly perpetuated by those in the press.

It has no bearing on the console and the games for sure, but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that MS clearly has or had something in mind that didn't sit well with a lot of people, myself included. Maybe you keep your mouth shut when something bothers you, others don't. It hardly makes the immature for voicing their opinion. And it doesn't make you any more mature because you don't. Different people handle things in different ways. Protests exist for a reason. If they never got results, people wouldn't do them. Just like you say we have no idea how this will all turn out, you have no idea if the extremely vocal and apparently large swathe of gamers will have no affect on MS's or Sony's or anyone else's decision.

Also, why wait until the console comes out? Everyone has a voice and should make it heard whenever they can. If there is even a 1% chance that this can make a change then that chance should be taken. Waiting until the console comes out is too late.

What seems to be missing from your sweeping judgments and generalizations is that the reason why people are upset is because they WANT to get the Xbox One. They WANT to play all of those games because they matter. The reason they're upset is because if MS does go through with this terrible idea, that means they won't be getting the console and won't be playing those games. It's better to try and nip in the bud before it's too late.

Some people could voice their opinions in a better, more articulate way, but they don't have to. As much as you might wish they would.

#7 Edited by N2NOther (83 posts) -

I find this entire negative reaction as a great example of how truly immature and irrational most of the vocal portion of the internet is. The machines and the games aren't coming out for another 6 months and everyone is passing insane judgments about something they know almost nothing about simply because they didn't see the games that are going to be shown in about two weeks.

Microsoft has some interesting and ambitious ideas about what they can do with the new console, and I think it would actually be pretty sweet if they delivered on all the stuff they promised. Even if all the kinect, TV, and multitasking stuff doesn't work it has almost no effect on the games. The games are going to be made whether its for the Sony console, Microsoft console, Nintendo console, or the PC. Why not just sit back and see what happens. There's no need to freak out about something you know very little about. It's interesting, and even if it isn't exactly what you want, who cares. Stop crying about it and just wait to see what happens.

Maybe the Xbox One will be the worst travesty ever to happen to the gaming industry, but maybe it will be this awesome console that delivers on most of what it tried to promise. The fact is no one truly knows. So why spend so much time bitching, worrying, and freaking out. Just calm down, and play the good games where they fall.

The entire purpose of the interviews done post reveal were to shed more light on the console, generate buzz, and get people talking about Xbox One. The information they have is what is causing gamers to "freak out" and "bitch on the internet". I am a rational person, I have always been a multi-console owner, and I spend most of my gaming time with my 360. That being said, I think everything MS has done in the past week is beyond absurd.

Sure Sony hasn't been THAT up front about their used game stance beyond saying it would be up to the publisher. But they also didn't have executives saying "There will be a fee", then having a rep on Twitter saying, "there is no fee," etc. Of course in a ideal situation we would all just sit tight and wait for more information, but the messaging we have received has, in fact, been wholly negative to a LARGE portion of people.

Like Alex points out in his piece, it's not like they couldn't have known about the used game issue. This rumor was leaked MONTHS ago and people have been vocal about it. But as a rumor, then it's very easy to be rational and say "OK, well that's just a rumor" and reserve judgment. But guess what, judgment time has begun because these things are no longer rumors. They have been said, OUT LOUD by people like Phil Harrison, a friggin' VICE PRESIDENT at Microsoft. Rationale and logic would dictate that he, of all people, know what is going on. So by that token, why shouldn't people be upset about the things he is saying when they are clearly upsetting to the people that are upset by it? Then coupled with the PR nonsense like "Reports have been inaccurate and incomplete" and then being told that that's all we have until someone makes them accurate and complete at a later date.

I appreciate your stance of "wait and see" but these "immature" folks you talk about? Some of them are quite smart and can see through PR bs and say to themselves "well that can't be good. Why one earth would they not clear this up now so we can all move on or make a final decision?" For me the answer is that MS wasn't expecting the "immature" and "irrational" "internet bitching" and have decided to look at their upcoming strategy again and figure out what to do before E3. You don't issue a comment if it's irrational. You issue a comment when it's an actual, valid complaint.

And I can tell you, as someone who will be attending E3 as press, that it has tainted by perception going into E3. See, though I am press, for now I don't get paid for it. I have a full-time job, not affiliated with the video game industry, and as such I have to pay money for everything I get. I make my purchasing decisions based on what I know about a product and right now, what I know about the Xbox One isn't good at all. That's subjective and objective. Nothing they showed or have talked about after the show has appealed to me as a gamer, as an aspiring journalist and ultimately a consumer.

#8 Posted by N2NOther (83 posts) -

@cmblasko said:

People sure do love to watch Leonardo DiCaprio play Leonardo DiCaprio.

This. With the exception of 3 roles, I have never, ever been impressed. I don't understand how people can be. On the off chance that any one is wondering, those three roles are:

Arnie Grape in "What's Eating Gilbert Grape"

Frank Abagnale Jr. in "Catch Me If You Can"

Calvin Candie in "Django Unchained"

Other than that I find him incredibly dull.

#9 Posted by N2NOther (83 posts) -

@mattyftm said:

Both can be accurate, but both are overused.

Prime example of a vocal minority is the internet going on about Call of Duty. People rage about how every iteration is the same as the last and at the lack of innovation. Yet those games still sell insane amounts. You wouldn't think that based on the volatile reaction people on the internet give it. Obviously that's a drastically different situation to the ones you describe, but it is certainly possible to have a vocal minority, it's just hard to quantify it in most situations.

This is the example I was going to use for "vocal minority", in which case it's valid. And for showing statistics, it goes both ways. One would have to prove it's not the vocal minority.

#10 Posted by N2NOther (83 posts) -

From the original article:

"We're telling a story and we have a point of view," EA's President of Labels Frank Gibeau, who leads product development of EA's biggest franchises, said in an interview. "A book doesn't pay for saying the word 'Colt,' for example."

By this "logic" game makers should be able to use people's names and likenesses, cars, books, branded food and so on. This won't work out well.