A Complicated Issue

I was a little upset when my Xbox 360 gave up the ghost this week (exactly 1 hour before Shadow Complex released in actual fact). Earlier today while making breakfast, I decided to run the Gaygamer.net podcast, I was suddenly made aware of a few facts that I had not previously known about author Orson Scott Card. Even more to the point, they discussed some issues that have also come about on the Chair Entertainment website. In their defence, there has been no official statement from the company yet on the situation that has been alleged to have occurred on their forums. 
 
 I'll have to admit that now I'm a little torn on the issue. On the one hand there is the developer, who by all account, has no issues with the GLBT community. In fact, the writer who actually worked on the game is really quite friendly to the community. The game looks as if it is well made, and fun to play. On the other hand, as a gay man, I do not want any of my money going to a man who wrote this: 
 

Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down.     
 
Even beyond this statement, he has very disturbing views on the separation of church and state, and is also on the board of the National Organization for Marriage (one of the organizations behind proposition 8, and also a group that lobbied to hide the list of donor's to this campaign from public view. At least it seems their views on keeping things in the closet are consistent I suppose. =/ ). I can not, in all good conscience, show my support for this man. Which is what leaves me torn between my desire to support the one, and not the other. 
 
It is a complicated issue to say the least. If you are at all interested in getting some more facts, check out that link I posted to Gaygamer.net, and also this article Gamasutra posted about it.
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Posted by Rasgueado

I was a little upset when my Xbox 360 gave up the ghost this week (exactly 1 hour before Shadow Complex released in actual fact). Earlier today while making breakfast, I decided to run the Gaygamer.net podcast, I was suddenly made aware of a few facts that I had not previously known about author Orson Scott Card. Even more to the point, they discussed some issues that have also come about on the Chair Entertainment website. In their defence, there has been no official statement from the company yet on the situation that has been alleged to have occurred on their forums. 
 
 I'll have to admit that now I'm a little torn on the issue. On the one hand there is the developer, who by all account, has no issues with the GLBT community. In fact, the writer who actually worked on the game is really quite friendly to the community. The game looks as if it is well made, and fun to play. On the other hand, as a gay man, I do not want any of my money going to a man who wrote this: 
 

Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down.     
 
Even beyond this statement, he has very disturbing views on the separation of church and state, and is also on the board of the National Organization for Marriage (one of the organizations behind proposition 8, and also a group that lobbied to hide the list of donor's to this campaign from public view. At least it seems their views on keeping things in the closet are consistent I suppose. =/ ). I can not, in all good conscience, show my support for this man. Which is what leaves me torn between my desire to support the one, and not the other. 
 
It is a complicated issue to say the least. If you are at all interested in getting some more facts, check out that link I posted to Gaygamer.net, and also this article Gamasutra posted about it.
Posted by natetodamax

Damnit, now gaygaymer.com is in my history.

Edited by Snipzor

I adressed this in a blog indirectly, in some ways I agree with them... but at the same time it is also written by a famous comic book author who has outed many characters. If a person feels a bit guilty about this, then atone for it by contributing against Orson Scott Card's interests or something like that. 
 
But hey! It is a great game. 
 
EDIT: Although I would feel unclean if some of my money went to Card, and that is something I can't wash off.

Posted by Video_Game_King
@Rasgueado said:
Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition

At what point in the history of ever...
Posted by Rasgueado
@Snipzor: I suppose... again this is where I'm torn. In a sense, the two acts would balance each other out and just maintain a status quo. I just don't know how I feel about that yet.  
 
Fortunately I have some time to think about it since I'm not paying to get my 360 fixed, when I can just save another $100 to buy a new one. 
Posted by Rasgueado
@Video_Game_King: you're pushing on an open door there. =)
Posted by Snipzor
@Rasgueado: I know exactly what you mean, especially since I've listened to the podcast in mind when it came out, and even knowing about this for a bit. 
 
I'm still waiting for a response from Chair, but so far they haven't responded, which is a shame. Hope you can find an answer to this issue like I did.
Posted by Video_Game_King
@Rasgueado said:
" @Video_Game_King: you're pushing on an open door there. =) "
I have no idea what that means. Is it a moot point?
Posted by Rasgueado
@Snipzor: I think that response is going to be one of my deciding factors. If this was just some forum dude who didn't know any better, than I won't mind that much. If it was company policy to eliminate visibility of the issue (which I have *no* reason to expect) that's a different issue. We'll see what they say.
Posted by Rasgueado
@Video_Game_King: It's something Noam Chomsky said to me once when I wrote him an e-mail about a few things. Basically he was telling me that I didn't need to lobby for his support since he was already a believer in the issue. =)  
 
I was basically saying that we already agree on this point.
Posted by addictedtopinescent

I don't get these sites 
GayGaymer, catholic gamers 
Like, what the fuck is wrong with just sites about videogames, it's like there's a seperate market of video games for gays or catholics or whatever else

Posted by Snipzor
@addictedtopinescent: Visibility, that is what it is all about.
Posted by Rasgueado
@addictedtopinescent: It's also context. There are a lot of people who go to Gaygaymer.net to find people that they can be friends with on services like xbox live. They also organize game nights, and group tournaments so that they can enjoy playing games without having to worry about being casually gay bashed.
Posted by auspiciousqueue

It's an interesting issue to say the least. You notice that  one person is vocal, can you imagine what the other people who develop/create/write/etc are thinking about that or any subject and just aren't vocal? In good conscience you/me/general public probably wouldn't give money or support to anyone in that case. But I do respect you or having the moral conflict, it shows that you have principles about what you believe and who you are. 

Posted by Sabata

Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer." 
 
Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid.

Edited by JacobForrest

I have strong views about the SSM issue. Really, it shouldn't even be an issue -- there's no logical argument against SSM. However, I don't think that because someone with extreme political views played a marginal role in Shadow Complex's development is enough to warrant any sort of boycott. By all means boycott Orson Scott Card's novels -- he's fairly vocal about his views in those -- but boycotting the game is just ineffective and roundabout. The authour of the article claims that he dislikes the fact that people see it as a non-issue just because it's a game. Well, SSM certainly isn't a non-issue, but I think it is a non-issue when it comes to this particular game for the obvious reason that there's not even the slightest allusion to the SSM marriage issue. Nor is there any solid proof that Epic somehow endorses OSC's views. This is all a bit overblown, if you ask me.

Posted by Snipzor
@Sabata: Gaymer already exists as a forum. So the name was taken, but Ras mispelled the name. It's actually just gaygamer.
Posted by Sabata
@Snipzor: Oh, I see.  Makes sense.
Posted by Rasgueado
@Snipzor said:
" @Sabata: Gaymer already exists as a forum. So the name was taken, but Ras mispelled the name. It's actually just gaygamer. "
Oh... whoops. Yes I did. I'll just go and fix that now...
Posted by Rasgueado
@JacobForrest: The basis of my division has nothing to do with any references to same-sex marriage in the game. My reservations are, that as a consumer, I don't want *any* of the money that I spend on this game to go into the hands of Orson Scott Card. That's the entire issue. If they were to make a statement to the effect that he receives no royalties for the sale of each copy of the game, than that would satisfy me.  
  
One could probably extend that argument that he was paid for his time, and if the series is successful he could be paid again for his time on the next title. Speaking for myself, I'm not that hard lined about it. I just don't want to have *my* money, directly go into his hands in any way.
Posted by xyzygy

Wow... some of the ignorant fools in this world. I actually was looking up some info on this guy... He thinks that same sex marriage will hinder the human race. As if we aren't overpopulated already? And it's not like, if they legalize same sex marriages, everybody will just get married to the same sex and there won't be any more children.      
 
@Metroid545: Let me guess... you're from the South.

Posted by Metroid545
@xyzygy said:
" Wow... some of the ignorant fools in this world. I actually was looking up some info on this guy... He thinks that same sex marriage will hinder the human race. As if we aren't overpopulated already? And it's not like, if they legalize same sex marriages, everybody will just get married to the same sex and there won't be any more children.      
 
@Metroid545: Let me guess... you're from the South. "
first off I only agreed on the point he made I didn't do a full background check. I'm also not saying that legalizing gay marriage will end humanity because children will no longer be made, all i'm saying is same sex marriage is wrong. If you want to make a point try not fucking around with what I say from what I actually said it helps you too come across better and seem smarter
Posted by Snipzor
@Metroid545: But what did you actually mean when you said " I actually feel even better that I bought this now", I don't really understand where the point of pride is.
Posted by xyzygy
@Metroid545 said:
" @xyzygy said:
" Wow... some of the ignorant fools in this world. I actually was looking up some info on this guy... He thinks that same sex marriage will hinder the human race. As if we aren't overpopulated already? And it's not like, if they legalize same sex marriages, everybody will just get married to the same sex and there won't be any more children.      
 
@Metroid545: Let me guess... you're from the South. "
first off I only agreed on the point he made I didn't do a full background check. I'm also not saying that legalizing gay marriage will end humanity because children will no longer be made, all i'm saying is same sex marriage is wrong. If you want to make a point try not fucking around with what I say from what I actually said it helps you too come across better and seem smarter "
No no, you got me all wrong. The first part of the post was directed at the general topic. Only the part that says @Metroid545 was directed to you. I just asked a simple question, really.
Posted by Metroid545

oh ok sorry about that i just looked at the inbox message and instantly came too reply and it didn't show the @Metroid part
 
also yes i'm from the south

Posted by xyzygy
@Metroid545 said:
" oh ok sorry about that i just looked at the inbox message and instantly came too reply and it didn't show the @Metroid part  also yes i'm from the south "
*rolls eyes*... K.
Posted by ArbitraryWater

Goodness gracious. Aren't we overreacting a little? Card will get like a cent of your Shadow Complex purchase, and he is only tangentially connected to the fucking game anyways. You may think that you are taking a stand, but in the end you are just depriving yourself of a good game because of a man who's views are never touched upon in the game. Sure, Shadow Complex takes place in the same universe as Empire, but nobody would have known that if Chair hadn't decided to mention it as a PR move.

Posted by Metroid545
@Snipzor said:

" @Metroid545: But what did you actually mean when you said " I actually feel even better that I bought this now", I don't really understand where the point of pride is. "

from what I read in the article "first 3 paragraphs so if i missed anything vital let me know) He had the basic view I had (and that is that marriage shoould only be between a man and a woman) and I felt better because well I agreed and I kinda supported that unknowingly
Posted by Snipzor
@Metroid545 said:
" @Snipzor said:

" @Metroid545: But what did you actually mean when you said " I actually feel even better that I bought this now", I don't really understand where the point of pride is. "

from what I read in the article "first 3 paragraphs so if i missed anything vital let me know) He had the basic view I had (and that is that marriage shoould only be between a man and a woman) and I felt better because well I agreed and I kinda supported that unknowingly "
Okay, that explains it... the comment I mean. I'm not saying it to be a bastard (all bastardness is unintentional)
Posted by xyzygy
@ArbitraryWater said:
" Goodness gracious. Aren't we overreacting a little? Card will get like a cent of your Shadow Complex purchase, and he is only tangentially connected to the fucking game anyways. You may think that you are taking a stand, but in the end you are just depriving yourself of a good game because of a man who's views are never touched upon in the game. Sure, Shadow Complex takes place in the same universe as Empire, but nobody would have known that if Chair hadn't decided to mention it as a PR move. "
I agree. I don't think the whole community at Chair who put their hard work towards making this game is homophobic, well, I'm guesing because most people in this world aren't... I think? I'm just going by the majority rule. I know only very, very few homophobic people, but then again I live in Canada.  
 
Unless Chair got together in the same fashion Orson Scott Card joined the National Organization for Marriage, and for the same reasons, I see no reason why not to get this game. 
Posted by Snipzor
@ArbitraryWater said:
" Goodness gracious. Aren't we overreacting a little? Card will get like a cent of your Shadow Complex purchase, and he is only tangentially connected to the fucking game anyways. You may think that you are taking a stand, but in the end you are just depriving yourself of a good game because of a man who's views are never touched upon in the game. Sure, Shadow Complex takes place in the same universe as Empire, but nobody would have known that if Chair hadn't decided to mention it as a PR move. "
Well I bought the game, and am enjoying it... but at the same time, knowing I give some money (Regardless of how little it is) to Card makes me feel uncomfortable. Considering how many copies were purchased, and how much is given to Card, understand how much of it goes into his political ventures. Maybe a lot, maybe none, but there is no way of knowing, and I for one feel slightly disgusted with myself. 
 
It doesn't have to do with the game, because it really doesn't push that much in terms of politics. It has to do with the connections.
Posted by Bigandtasty
@Snipzor: Well, if it makes you feel that uncomfortable, the most sound solution is not a boycott, but rather what some of the people at gaygamer and gamasutra suggested: donating money to a proponent of gay marriage.
Posted by xyzygy
@Bigandtasty said:
" @Snipzor: Well, if it makes you feel that uncomfortable, the most sound solution is not a boycott, but rather what some of the people at gaygamer and gamasutra suggested: donating money to a proponent of gay marriage. "
Kudos!
Edited by DirtyFuture
@Snipzor said:

" @Metroid545: But what did you actually mean when you said " I actually feel even better that I bought this now", I don't really understand where the point of pride is. "

The same reason his pride doesn't make sense is the same reason you're disgust does not make sense. As long as the game itself is worth spending the money on and does not show any particular views on same sex marriage why do you care what Card's opinions are? I mean as long as his opinions stayed out of his work (which seems to be the case for this game) then what is the problem? Personally as long as a celebrity, writer, etc. keeps there opinions to themselves and out of their work I have no problem with buying their work. What Micheal Jackson may or may not have done to young children, while it disgusts me that there was even a possibility of it happening, doesn't make the Thriller album any worse or better. (Also I'm not some bigot whose against gay marriage, as long as no religious institution is forced to do something it does not want to do, I have no problem giving same sex couples equal legal rights)
Posted by Snipzor
@Bigandtasty: Well I volunteer for one, which in certain respects make it worse. 
 
I don't like the idea of boycotts, god knows they are completely useless and only generate more attention *coughDogmacough*, and I don't support it. But at the same time I don't support Card getting my money. I'm trapped in a non-existent position on this topic.
Posted by Metroid545
@DirtyFuture said:

" @Snipzor said:

" @Metroid545: But what did you actually mean when you said " I actually feel even better that I bought this now", I don't really understand where the point of pride is. "

The same reason his pride doesn't make sense is the same reason you're disgust does not make sense. As long as the game itself is worth spending the money on and does not show any particular views on same sex marriage why do you care what Card's opinions are? I mean as long as his opinions stayed out of his work (which seems to be the case for this game) then what is the problem? Personally as long as a celebrity, writer, etc. keeps there opinions to themselves and out of their work I have no problem with buying their work. What Micheal Jackson may or may not have done to young children, while it disgusts me that there was even a possibility of it happening, doesn't make the Thriller album any worse or better. (Also I'm not some bigot whose against gay marriage, as long as no religious institution is forced to do something it does not want to do, I have no problem giving same sex couples equal legal rights) "
I don't see why you think it doesn't make sense. Its his belief and by buying it they feel like they are succumbing to him by funding a project he worked on and seeing how he gets the money it is basically helping him keep his campaign going and they don't want that.
Posted by DirtyFuture
@Metroid545 said:
" @DirtyFuture said:

" @Snipzor said:

" @Metroid545: But what did you actually mean when you said " I actually feel even better that I bought this now", I don't really understand where the point of pride is. "

The same reason his pride doesn't make sense is the same reason you're disgust does not make sense. As long as the game itself is worth spending the money on and does not show any particular views on same sex marriage why do you care what Card's opinions are? I mean as long as his opinions stayed out of his work (which seems to be the case for this game) then what is the problem? Personally as long as a celebrity, writer, etc. keeps there opinions to themselves and out of their work I have no problem with buying their work. What Micheal Jackson may or may not have done to young children, while it disgusts me that there was even a possibility of it happening, doesn't make the Thriller album any worse or better. (Also I'm not some bigot whose against gay marriage, as long as no religious institution is forced to do something it does not want to do, I have no problem giving same sex couples equal legal rights) "
I don't see why you think it doesn't make sense. Its his belief and by buying it they feel like they are succumbing to him by funding a project he worked on and seeing how he gets the money it is basically helping him keep his campaign going and they don't want that. "
Why should they feel like they're succumbing to him, its not like by respecting his work they are respecting his belief. I mean there is no doubt Card has written some great novels, his beliefs against same sex marriage don't change the quality of his work. I don't see how you can lump respecting someone for their talent/work must mean you respect their personal opinions (When the opinions are absent in the work). As to the funding part, the organizations trying to get same sex marriage past across the country have more money backing them than the opposition ever will. I happen to be from New Hampshire, where sadly 80%ish of the people are against same sex marriage, but with enough money behind it same sex marriage was past rather easily. Give it 10 years and I bet almost all if not all states will have legalized same sex marriage, not such a big thing to worry about.
Posted by jkz
@Rasgueado said:
" @JacobForrest: The basis of my division has nothing to do with any references to same-sex marriage in the game. My reservations are, that as a consumer, I don't want *any* of the money that I spend on this game to go into the hands of Orson Scott Card. That's the entire issue. If they were to make a statement to the effect that he receives no royalties for the sale of each copy of the game, than that would satisfy me.    One could probably extend that argument that he was paid for his time, and if the series is successful he could be paid again for his time on the next title. Speaking for myself, I'm not that hard lined about it. I just don't want to have *my* money, directly go into his hands in any way. "
I would say that there should be no issue here for the simple reason that you have no idea what the rest of chair thinks. Should an entire group of developers, who have worked so hard to produce such an excellent game, be denied the fruit of their hard work simply because someone who contributed, even in the slightest, is an extremely vocal opponent of same-sex marriage. For all you know, the rest of chairs could be members of the public who go to rallies in support of same-sex marriage. 
 
It is simply not right to punish many for the views of few (god that sounds overblown). Furthurmore, I HIGHLY doubt that Orson Scott Card recieves any significant percentage of his income from his work on this game. It's his literary work where he gains the most income, and it's there that you should take any issues you have with his views, not to the fine folks at chair.
Posted by Spike94
@Sabata said:
"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "

Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... 
I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...
I like Mr. Card.
Have a fine day. :D 
P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< 
Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you.
Edited by xyzygy
@Spike94 said:

" @Sabata said:

"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "
Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...I like Mr. Card.Have a fine day. :D P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you. "
I'm just curious... why do you think that the location where one lives and with whom they decide to live with be considered religious? Before religion, people could live and be together with who ever... right? It's not like religion introduced the natural human trait of socialising.
Posted by dopeman
@natetodamax: That was such a dick thing to say
Posted by Spike94

I would like to start off my thanking you for being so civil and friendly. =)

And ah, but that is where I can say two names I think we all...may have heard of? Adam and Eve. Granted that'll only change your mind if you believe that, like I do.

For argument's sake, I'll think about what you pointed out though, for a second. That is certainly a good point, for starters. Before religion (again, rolling with what you said), did anyone get married, though? Yes, be together. Yes, socailize. But not marriage itself, if you get me. And as far as two male cavemen go, dude, I haven't the slightest. 
Thanks for the reply. Pleasure to chat with you.

Posted by Sabata
@Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "
Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...I like Mr. Card.Have a fine day. :D P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you. "
No, really, if you honestly believe that marriage is a thing that should be controlled by your religion, then yes, you are fucking stupid.  Do you think that your religion is the only one in which people get married?  Did you ever think that people of other religions and cultures get married too?  Some even *GASP* get married without having any religion at all! 
 
However, if you simply feel like marriage between two people of the same sex is wrong, then that is your opinion and I cannot call you fucking stupid for that.  
Edited by xyzygy
@Spike94 said:
"

I would like to start off my thanking you for being so civil and friendly. =)

And ah, but that is where I can say two names I think we all...may have heard of? Adam and Eve. Granted that'll only change your mind if you believe that, like I do.

For argument's sake, I'll think about what you pointed out though, for a second. That is certainly a good point, for starters. Before religion (again, rolling with what you said), did anyone get married, though? Yes, be together. Yes, socailize. But not marriage itself, if you get me. And as far as two male cavemen go, dude, I haven't the slightest. 
Thanks for the reply. Pleasure to chat with you.

"
But wouldn't you agree with me now that Marriage has become more of a legal thing? I mean, for some, it's all about money. If people get divorced, how is it "just" that someone can take a share of the others money? How is a piece of paper that says, "OK, you two can be 'Married'" Religious? I thought religion was about spiritualism, not legally bound satuses.
Posted by Spike94
@Sabata said:
" @Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "
Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...I like Mr. Card.Have a fine day. :D P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you. "
No, really, if you honestly believe that marriage is a thing that should be controlled by your religion, then yes, you are fucking stupid.  Do you think that your religion is the only one in which people get married?  Did you ever think that people of other religions and cultures get married too?  Some even *GASP* get married without having any religion at all!  However, if you simply feel like marriage between two people of the same sex is wrong, then that is your opinion and I cannot call you fucking stupid for that.   "
Ah, I see what you are saying, but do you have to be so...rude, I suppose? Anywho. I never said Christianity (my religion) was the only way two people could get married (not saying you said I did, just stating). As far as it being controlled by religion goes, I don't think you understand what I believe. But anyways: I do believe marriage was created by God. As far as two, let's say for example, atheists, getting married goes, yes, that's a marriage.
And thank you, as I can not call you stupid either. 
Have a fine day and thank you for the reply. :D
Posted by JJWeatherman

I think anyone that is really worried about someone with different beliefs getting your money just needs to relax. The sad reality is there are tons of people out there that have pretty twisted views on morality and such. I think that people should buy games, watch movies, buy books, etc. because they want to and they enjoy it. If you go around trying to boycott everything that is in any way connected to homophobia or any other issue, then you would be missing out on quite a bit. It's the sad truth.

Posted by xyzygy
@Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
" @Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "
Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...I like Mr. Card.Have a fine day. :D P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you. "
No, really, if you honestly believe that marriage is a thing that should be controlled by your religion, then yes, you are fucking stupid.  Do you think that your religion is the only one in which people get married?  Did you ever think that people of other religions and cultures get married too?  Some even *GASP* get married without having any religion at all!  However, if you simply feel like marriage between two people of the same sex is wrong, then that is your opinion and I cannot call you fucking stupid for that.   "
Ah, I see what you are saying, but do you have to be so...rude, I suppose? Anywho. I never said Christianity (my religion) was the only way two people could get married (not saying you said I did, just stating). As far as it being controlled by religion goes, I don't think you understand what I believe. But anyways: I do believe marriage was created by God. As far as two, let's say for example, atheists, getting married goes, yes, that's a marriage.And thank you, as I can not call you stupid either. Have a fine day and thank you for the reply. :D "
Wow, you totally avoided his reply blatently right there. LOL. How could "God" create marriage, if the two people who are getting married are not followers of "God" and do not acknowledge his existence? What if THEY believe that Allah (I don't even know what religion that God is from) created Marriage?
Posted by Spike94
@xyzygy said:
"@Spike94 said:
"

I would like to start off my thanking you for being so civil and friendly. =)

And ah, but that is where I can say two names I think we all...may have heard of? Adam and Eve. Granted that'll only change your mind if you believe that, like I do.

For argument's sake, I'll think about what you pointed out though, for a second. That is certainly a good point, for starters. Before religion (again, rolling with what you said), did anyone get married, though? Yes, be together. Yes, socailize. But not marriage itself, if you get me. And as far as two male cavemen go, dude, I haven't the slightest. 
Thanks for the reply. Pleasure to chat with you.

"
But wouldn't you agree with me now that Marriage has become more of a legal thing? I mean, for some, it's all about money. If people get divorced, how is it "just" that someone can take a share of the others money? How is a piece of paper that says, "OK, you two can be 'Married'" Religious? I thought religion was about spiritualism, not legally bound satuses. "

Oh, absolutely.  
Yes, spiritualism, yes indeed (like a relationship with my Savior :D, for example). I believe it is disgusting when two marry for money or anything like that, that is not marriage. Not that I am to judge this or that, but I doubt God would see that as marriage either. As far as the whole "piece of paper" thing goes, I really wasn't thinking of it just like that (but I certainly see the point you were making). When I think of marriage, I think of the two being joined by God and such (marriage being offical in God's eyes when the newlyweds fornicate for the first time and all that) and don't give a thought to the legal stuff. Sure, the legal stuff's important, but completely pales in comparison when compared to what marriage is really all about. Love. 
It has been a pleasure to chat. I am calling it a night, but feel free to continue the discussion. God bless, and have a nice day. :)
Posted by Sabata
@Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
" @Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "
Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...I like Mr. Card.Have a fine day. :D P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you. "
No, really, if you honestly believe that marriage is a thing that should be controlled by your religion, then yes, you are fucking stupid.  Do you think that your religion is the only one in which people get married?  Did you ever think that people of other religions and cultures get married too?  Some even *GASP* get married without having any religion at all!  However, if you simply feel like marriage between two people of the same sex is wrong, then that is your opinion and I cannot call you fucking stupid for that.   "
Ah, I see what you are saying, but do you have to be so...rude, I suppose? Anywho. I never said Christianity (my religion) was the only way two people could get married (not saying you said I did, just stating). As far as it being controlled by religion goes, I don't think you understand what I believe. But anyways: I do believe marriage was created by God. As far as two, let's say for example, atheists, getting married goes, yes, that's a marriage.And thank you, as I can not call you stupid either. Have a fine day and thank you for the reply. :D "
I find it rather disheartening that there can exist a god that would rather see two people of different sexes who don't believe in him (and may even shun his name)  get married than see two people of the same sex who might be religious get married. 
 
My point in all this is that marriage should not be solely a religious practice.  Homosexuals simply want to have the same marital rights that heterosexual people have; they don't want the churches to go "Come on in guys!" and marry them.  I doubt many of them care if religious people don't think of them as truly married just as long as the government does.
Posted by Spike94
@xyzygy said:
" @Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
" @Spike94 said:
" @Sabata said:
"Isn't the name "Gaygaymer" kinda redundant?  Shoulda gone with "Gaygamer" or "Gaymer."  Also: religious people who think marriage was a religious thing first are fucking stupid. "
Humph! Excuse me sir or madam, how horribly rude! Stupid I am not. I have my own convictions, I ask you to respect me for them... I love gay people no less then I love straight people but I feel marriage is between a woman and man...yes, my reasons have to do with God, but calling me effing stupid for it is, in itself, stupid...I like Mr. Card.Have a fine day. :D P.S. Seriously, if I get skewered for my beliefs then fine...I doubt that'll happen on GB, though, but I guess I am about to find out >.< Hope you all have a tremendous evening/morning/what have you. "
No, really, if you honestly believe that marriage is a thing that should be controlled by your religion, then yes, you are fucking stupid.  Do you think that your religion is the only one in which people get married?  Did you ever think that people of other religions and cultures get married too?  Some even *GASP* get married without having any religion at all!  However, if you simply feel like marriage between two people of the same sex is wrong, then that is your opinion and I cannot call you fucking stupid for that.   "
Ah, I see what you are saying, but do you have to be so...rude, I suppose? Anywho. I never said Christianity (my religion) was the only way two people could get married (not saying you said I did, just stating). As far as it being controlled by religion goes, I don't think you understand what I believe. But anyways: I do believe marriage was created by God. As far as two, let's say for example, atheists, getting married goes, yes, that's a marriage.And thank you, as I can not call you stupid either. Have a fine day and thank you for the reply. :D "
Wow, you totally avoided his reply blatently right there. LOL. How could "God" create marriage, if the two people who are getting married are not followers of "God" and do not acknowledge his existence? What if THEY believe that Allah (I don't even know what religion that God is from) created Marriage? "

How did I avoid his reply? I had no intention to. Sorry if it seems I did. Anywho. God created marriage, and the way people who are not followers of God can use it should answer itself- you can live, can't you, without believing in Him? Like, you won't just drop dread, right? Right. Again, going back to Adam and Eve, but that doesn't hold any water if you don't believe that, which is where we can agree to disagree, I suppose?
Also: "Allah" means "God" in Arabic. The religion is Islam. Christianity and Islam share the same Father figure (Christianity has the Holy Trinity, and that is how they are different, the main reason- Islam has no Son or Holy Spirit that make up God, no "three-in-one" thing, but there is God the Father in both). 
Again, pleasure to chat. :D
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