EVE online and the idea of "WINNING" it.

EVE online is an mmo, a game that either draws fear, happiness, or just plain confusion from those who play it or have heard the name and what it tries to achieve with its players.
 
 A recurring thing I'm seeing as of late though is the idea that you can somehow WIN at EVE, you can ultimately dominate it and have no contest while playing it. From my last 4 years playing it I can tell you this is impossible. I say this not to be negative or downgrading to the game itself because overall to me its an amazing space simulator that you can play with your friends and allies. But the idea that you can end the game itself simply by playing it and getting the most ISK (in-game currency that EVE uses.) or by having the biggest baddest fleet on this planet is also not plausible because eventually someone will take notice and destroy your ship.
 
The game does have "little victories" as some and myself call them because you can defeat players or small fleets but EVE overall, No. You cannot define what winning in EVE is really because CCP itself has never defined it. The most anyone person can do in EVE that is even close to winning is giving themselves a goal within the game after they learn about it and then achieving it by any means necessary using the game's tools and ships. This is acceptable in EVE, there are no rules as much as other people might try to define what they should be. It's called the sandbox for this very reason.
 
 EVE has it's ambitious bunch for sure. You hear all the crazy stories of assassination and espionage and you think "Hey, I wanna do that!" So you decide to jump in. You then realize this game doesn't let you take off so easily, which in it's own way is good and bad for the game. On the bright side you can't power level a new character to fly capital ships in a week. The game won't allow it, on the other hand you might want to do something like be a mining machine hauling in big loads of ore and breaking them down for resources to sell but because of the learning curve and time it takes you probably won't reach this ideal position for weeks, because of either set backs or not having sufficient funds.  Right now if you want at least a exhumer(a mining ship that gathers rocks faster than your starting frigates) in this game its gonna cost you anywhere from 120 million ISK to 200+ depending on your region market in game. 
 
I say all this though to who it may concern in wanting to join EVE. Don't think you can conquer EVE, Don't go in thinking the people around you will be your friends to help you, some will use you and then drop you so they can gain something they feel is important, it happens because EVE allows it. In this game you have discover who will care enough and who thinks your a tool to be used. Overall, you cannot win because EVE will not let you. Enjoy EVE for what it is, a giant sandbox letting you explore space in a fictional setting. This is my creed that I follow every time I play this game and it's why I still enjoy the game. Thanks for reading.

25 Comments
26 Comments
Posted by Sacerdos87

EVE online is an mmo, a game that either draws fear, happiness, or just plain confusion from those who play it or have heard the name and what it tries to achieve with its players.
 
 A recurring thing I'm seeing as of late though is the idea that you can somehow WIN at EVE, you can ultimately dominate it and have no contest while playing it. From my last 4 years playing it I can tell you this is impossible. I say this not to be negative or downgrading to the game itself because overall to me its an amazing space simulator that you can play with your friends and allies. But the idea that you can end the game itself simply by playing it and getting the most ISK (in-game currency that EVE uses.) or by having the biggest baddest fleet on this planet is also not plausible because eventually someone will take notice and destroy your ship.
 
The game does have "little victories" as some and myself call them because you can defeat players or small fleets but EVE overall, No. You cannot define what winning in EVE is really because CCP itself has never defined it. The most anyone person can do in EVE that is even close to winning is giving themselves a goal within the game after they learn about it and then achieving it by any means necessary using the game's tools and ships. This is acceptable in EVE, there are no rules as much as other people might try to define what they should be. It's called the sandbox for this very reason.
 
 EVE has it's ambitious bunch for sure. You hear all the crazy stories of assassination and espionage and you think "Hey, I wanna do that!" So you decide to jump in. You then realize this game doesn't let you take off so easily, which in it's own way is good and bad for the game. On the bright side you can't power level a new character to fly capital ships in a week. The game won't allow it, on the other hand you might want to do something like be a mining machine hauling in big loads of ore and breaking them down for resources to sell but because of the learning curve and time it takes you probably won't reach this ideal position for weeks, because of either set backs or not having sufficient funds.  Right now if you want at least a exhumer(a mining ship that gathers rocks faster than your starting frigates) in this game its gonna cost you anywhere from 120 million ISK to 200+ depending on your region market in game. 
 
I say all this though to who it may concern in wanting to join EVE. Don't think you can conquer EVE, Don't go in thinking the people around you will be your friends to help you, some will use you and then drop you so they can gain something they feel is important, it happens because EVE allows it. In this game you have discover who will care enough and who thinks your a tool to be used. Overall, you cannot win because EVE will not let you. Enjoy EVE for what it is, a giant sandbox letting you explore space in a fictional setting. This is my creed that I follow every time I play this game and it's why I still enjoy the game. Thanks for reading.

Posted by JCTango

Everytime I hear someone describe to me what EVE Online is, or what it attempts to be, I get hesitant to try, or fathom the idea of trying it because it always seems like it brings out either the pinnacle of altruism in people in an online game.. or the absolute worst in humanity.
 
It's too close to real life relationships in terms of who you can trust etc. for it to be enjoyable for me (as a game).  It's mostly all the stories of backstabbing that scares me off.

Posted by Sacerdos87

Yep, that is a deciding factor for some people. You can find decent communities now that are "safe spots" so to speak but even in other mmos this type of behavior can occur it's just more hurtful and consequential in a game like EVE online especially for new players.

Edited by JCTango

Whenever I game in MMO's I tend to steer towards more of an altruistic type character.
For example, in..
 

  • Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-CU): I'd play as a light-sided jedi that would go around protecting other overt rebels from attack whenever they were grinding xp or fighting imperial players; I'd also channel some force / healage to those who needed it.
  • Dungeons and Dragons Online:  I'd play mostly as a healing/buffing type of character
  • City of Heroes/Villains:  I'd play mostly as a healing+buffing+alpha strike/alpha soak+blasting/controlling type of character (fire/kin 'troller/corrupter)
 
A lot of my enjoyment in these types of games come from the camaraderie in battle and the trust+friendship that's earned.
From what I hear about EVE Online however, a lot of the trust and friendships that form can flip in an instant, causing much grief on those who have been taken advantage of. 
(In defense of EVE Online - other people USE other people for their own agendas in other games as well - especially using healers and such)
 
I wouldn't pay to have that kind of experience - especially if I can get that for free in the real world heh.
 
That said though, maybe it isn't all as bad as I make it out to be (especially since I've never tried it); but then again, I'm cautious these days about friendships I make online anyway.
Posted by Sacerdos87

Caution is advised that's for sure. EVE is a fun game overall, I run a mining corp in it, have a couple GB members in it. My experiences has been both good and bad but overall have helped me learn to enjoy the game. The horror stories are pretty intense but as a player you can have some pretty good moments in it as well, watching stuff explode in this game is amazing, and just making money is gratifying if you decide to make and sell stuff.

Posted by Example1013

I feel like I might have to get into EVE at some point. Everything I read about it just makes it sound more and more appealing.

Posted by ahoodedfigure

From what I've been able to see as an outsider, most people can't accomplish very much on their own. If they're a CEO or whatever they might have the highest level of income in an organization, but organizations can fall, and upstarts can surpass bulky corporations, just like in real life. The only way to tell if someone has achieved any measure of sustainable success is through hindsight, where you could say that this person has managed to keep their power, influence, and money for a long period of time.
 
I USED to believe that there was some sort of monolith effect, where eventually a group would become too powerful and nothing could break that, but there was an event a few years ago that showed me how volatile that world is. The big group fell apart, and rivals flew in to fill the vacuum. It was at that point that I realized the potential of this more freeform style of MMO. I'm still not sure I'd like sinking a lot of cash into it, but I'm always intrigued by it. It's one of the coolest virtual environments out there.

Posted by Pinworm45

Eve is the most amazing game I've ever played. 
 
It is also, by far, the most absolute boring. 
 
Take that for whatever it's worth.

Edited by Sacerdos87
@ahoodedfigure: No doubt, "All empires must fall"  as the saying goes. People will dissolve the most powerful of unions in this game over what seems like absolute boredom and/or hatred. It happened to Goonswarm when CEO their  took all their money and ships and disbanded their Alliance. But that's cause the alliance gave him supreme power and he was a prick. 
 
Ultimately I feel that EVE has the best subscription service in most subscription based mmo's out there because expansions are included with your updates as they come and you never have to give extra money beyond that every other year to get new content. 
 
Shit if the CEO is dumb enough in this game and keeps shares within a corporation, you can get a usurper to take your corp right out from under you by voting himself into CEO status.
Posted by Sacerdos87
@Pinworm45:  It's a very good summary of a game in it's positives and negatives. On the one hand you can have good battles, make tons of money, and friends. On the other hand, you can get blown to shit, lose that money replacing the ship, oh and your friends can backstab, and camp you in station thus making for a boring game. I eat rocks in game for income in EVE so mining isn't boring to me, would be to others I can see that though.
Posted by ahoodedfigure
@Sacerdos87:  One thing that makes me reticent though is that one of the things that keeps cutthroat places together is the threat of legal action, bound by contract. How are contracts enforced in the game? Are they just the equivalent of verbal contracts?  It feels pretty real in a lot of ways, but there's always that MMO distancing from consequences lurking in the shadows. 
 
Maybe lawyers will be in the next expansion? :)
Posted by Sacerdos87
@ahoodedfigure:  Contracts can be enforced in a couple of ways, you can set up a contract where collateral has to be given when accepting it. For example I could say take this load of stuff worth 500,000 isk, as  part of collateral I want 50 million isk to guarantee delivery.  It can be a verbal contract as I explain below.
 
This can also be a scam and is allowed in EVE, because that same contract doesn't need a location so congratulations you just took a contract that can't be fulfilled so now that guy just made an easy 50 million for an impossible contract. So it really comes down to trust and reading all the lines of contracts, when taking on or offering contracts because nobody will help you if its made out to trick you.
Posted by ahoodedfigure
@Sacerdos87:  Without a justice system, contracts are patently not nearly as strong or reliable. There are police in EVE, I guess, but they're more just bots that protect people in high security zones and not really a legal force that can actually enforce the law in the forum/chat part of the game (and if I read correctly even those are getting phased out, aren't they?). I guess having contracts be enforced would be a lot more involved than any game is in stuff like this, so it would have to have a lot of stuff backing it up to work, but since contracts seem to be outside of the game's concrete mechanics then it almost takes on a new meaning to me.
 
It's an interesting take on the possibilities, perhaps a more complicated version of what's already going on in other MMOs with guild charters and other agreements, but I wonder if a more rigorous enforcement system might help expand contracts to be more meaningful. Still, it'll be interesting to see how they evolve over time. I'm happy I can even use the word evolve with regard to a game like this and be reasonably serious.
Posted by Sacerdos87
@ahoodedfigure:  Contracts are still pretty useful, and lawful enforcement of contracts wouldn't help you in the long run because then nobody would use them if there was a set way of using them. 
 
 EVE values freedom in whatever condition that may be, if its for a scam so be it, if its to trade ships and goods for isk, thats all well too. They let it pan out that way to see what people think a certain item or mechanic should be used.  Mainly this is done to see how it alters the game and whether or not its accepted amongst the players.
 
As far as phasing stuff out goes, not sure what you mean there, if you mean CONCORD being removed from game, no that will never happen because they are what protects high sec and new players essentially.  If you mean Forums, they are being updated and chat is always going to be there to an extent, they have voice chat but tons of people still use the text based chat.
Posted by Jack268

Man, I tried to get into EVE back in summer when it was $2 on steam, but I just don't know how I am supposed to play it. It's pretty hard to understand the menus and what's needed to do stuff. I would resub if I had a clue on how to play. Any noob tips? The game seems incredible when you read stories about it, just like you say, but when you play it it's just so daunting when you see all the shit you can do.

Posted by Jimbo

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Posted by Sacerdos87
@Jack268:  I would say try to find a corp that would be willing to mentor you, there is also a help button in the bottom of the menus that gives you tutorials that explain some of the mechanics fairly well. 
 
It all depends on what you wanna do but overall the overview in the user interface will always have a role, as well as chat. Just take it in step by step and day by day and it will become second nature. 
 
I've been playing for 4 years and I don't know everything but I know enough to do what I wanna do. I run a corp for anyone who is interested in mining. Mentor and support them the best I can.
Posted by Sacerdos87
@Jimbo:  To each their own. I find it a fun social experiment with what can happen when you stick 50,000+ players on one server to see what they will do to each other.
Posted by RedRoach

I'm in the WoW guild alea iacta est (biggest guild in all of WoW, formed by the hosts of The Instance podcast) and we have a sister Eve guild, and everything they've explained to me is bananas. They're trying to root out spies in the corp, and planting spies in other corps. Hell they're even trying to steal ventrillo information. They have people suicide bombings, blowing up their own ships to destroy others. It's really got me wanting to play.

Edited by Mikemcn

You'd be out of your mind to think you could win an MMO. And Eve is played by a whole lot of people who really enjoy it for its complexity, but for many of them its their only game so they have more than enough time to focus on it. It plays fine, and although the interface isn't ideal I understood it fine enough to do everything I could really want after maybe 5 -10 hours. 
 

@Jack268

said:

" Man, I tried to get into EVE back in summer when it was $2 on steam, but I just don't know how I am supposed to play it. It's pretty hard to understand the menus and what's needed to do stuff. I would resub if I had a clue on how to play. Any noob tips? The game seems incredible when you read stories about it, just like you say, but when you play it it's just so daunting when you see all the shit you can do. "

Approach as this, you can do a hell of alot of things, but you need to choose what you want to do. Theres enough mechanics in Eve for a dozen individual games. The average person can only really "play" a fraction of it. For me, all I did was mine rocks and do missions. I completely avoided the manufacturing, planet management, station construction/upkeep, PvP, Pirateing, Wormhole exploration, faction warfare, freight hauling, bounty hunting, corp management, contracting, scamming, theft, tournaments, ninja salvaging. etc....  
 
Think about the fact that you could play Eve online without ever actually flying anywhere. 
Posted by Sacerdos87
@Jason_Bourne said:
" I'm in the WoW guild alea iacta est (biggest guild in all of WoW, formed by the hosts of The Instance podcast) and we have a sister Eve guild, and everything they've explained to me is bananas. They're trying to root out spies in the corp, and planting spies in other corps. Hell they're even trying to steal ventrillo information. They have people suicide bombings, blowing up their own ships to destroy others. It's really got me wanting to play. "
Yea it gets pretty intense whether you hear about it or experience it. Steam is always doing deals on it, there are plenty of free trials to get. People wanna blow each other up and acquire systems for various reasons all the time so reading what your friends do in EVE isn't out of the ordinary, in fact, it's pretty much a typical day in EVE, trying to gain the competitive edge.
Posted by ahoodedfigure
@Jimbo:  How about a nice game of chess?
 
@Sacerdos87: Now I'm interested in reading up on the types of scams out there. Are there any pyramid schemes, like forcing a person to get ten new signatures on a thing before they raise to the next level in the company or whatever? Does CCP just draw the line at personal account information and real money, or are there other things they don't tolerate (beyond the usual social restrictions you see on forums)?
Posted by FourWude

You don't win in EVE, son.... you survive!

Shit is real.

Posted by NoCookiesForYou

I played through the 14 day - Trial. Very cool game, during those 2 weeks i felt like i barely scratched the surface of what that game has to offer. The mods there were very friendly, they offered help and answered any questions that i had.

Posted by Sacerdos87
@ahoodedfigure said:

@Sacerdos87: Now I'm interested in reading up on the types of scams out there. Are there any pyramid schemes, like forcing a person to get ten new signatures on a thing before they raise to the next level in the company or whatever? Does CCP just draw the line at personal account information and real money, or are there other things they don't tolerate (beyond the usual social restrictions you see on forums)? "

 Yea there are definitely other scams that can be employed in the game that are allowed. EVE veterans love new players and their trusting of others, you could very easily pull off a pyramid scheme against other players who trust you.  
 
 You could give other players shares in your company with a promise of a return on the investment, but in the end you don't bother with that promise after you've acquired all the money from them, also you don't give them enough shares to have any real power in your corp.

 Espionage can also occur, you could get a new player, that player sticks with you for awhile, you like him/her and promote them through your ranks to the point they are practically a CEO themselves, then they make a move seizing all your money, ships, stations and then close your corp.  
 
 It happens, unless you truly know the individual behind the character in EVE, anything can occur to topple others, the Band of Brothers alliance in EVE got disbanded in a similar fashion when Goonswarm alliance had a spy in control of their alliance disband it, they lost jump gates, stations, money, ships, either from being cut off and blown up or from being stolen. It also made it impossible for them to keep the areas they were in because now they were all disconnected from each other.
 
As far as stealing personal info or accounts for EVE, that's pretty much still illegal.
Posted by Althox
@Jack268 said:
" Man, I tried to get into EVE back in summer when it was $2 on steam, but I just don't know how I am supposed to play it. It's pretty hard to understand the menus and what's needed to do stuff. I would resub if I had a clue on how to play. Any noob tips? The game seems incredible when you read stories about it, just like you say, but when you play it it's just so daunting when you see all the shit you can do. "
If you ever did complete the tutorial missions that you're given in the beginning, they've explained most of the basic stuff that you as a new player needs to know. After that, look for a corporation and join it, since that's the real way of getting to know the game and the community (Head over either ingame and look for offices in stations or have a look at the forums.) And as the Senior Producer Arnar of CCP said, "We want to keep EVE as it is. EVE is like a rubrics cube, and we give it to you, and then say go f**k your self.", so yeah, it will be hard, but it's worth the struggle.