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Slag

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RE: Crystarium-

That's a good point, I wish more people talked about it.

My intention going in was to max Str for Serah and magic for Noel, because I knewit would go against JRPGs gender conventions. And well Lightning seemed like a frontline warrior type (although she really seemed to spec out as mage knight type), so it would some sense her sister might have an inner brawler in her.

But like you once I saw how much native advantages they each had for the norms, the min/maxxer in me couldn't pass it up. In retrospect I wish I had, maybe the game would have been more challenging.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "sexist", but I am pretty sick of fantasy games almost always giving female characters agility and int bonuses, while the male characters get the STR and HP.

It's a videogame for cryin out loud, if you're going to allow people to customize their character's abilities people should be able to min/max they way they want to free of societal norms tied to appearance (stature, gender etc).

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@slag said:

Have you thought about writing a blog post about Art criticism in games?

hm. I'll consider it. It's not the first time someone's asked. We shall see.

Thanks for your time, and, heh, yeah, it's a shame our decent little conversation is buried in all this muck. Oh well!

Yeah, not now the moment's kind of passed.

But maybe next time something like this comes up consider posting your response as a blog instead. I feel kinda bad in a way since you so much lot of thought into your responses for basically just me. I feel like the quality of your response ought to be seen and recognized by a wider audience.

I think people would like to read your thoughts like this, if you're game.

But if not, I certainly don't blame you. I used to be a high volume blogger and it certainly is a time and emotionally consuming endeavor.

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My family digs it, they think it means I'm smart. My mom was the one who actually got me into it and encouraged it. Most of my family think it's fun and harmless if done responsibly. And they trust that I do it that way.

My male friends are all current or former gamers, my female friends are a mixed bag.

Significant others however have usually not been on board. Which is somewhat understandable, given that if you're gaming you're not doing stuff with them.

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Let's do it like they do it on the Discovery channel

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#5  Edited By Slag

@slag said:

@truthtellah said:

Thanks, Slag.

I definitely get what you mean. We do have our pictures of people, and they're quite often mistaken. ha. But hopefully for the better. I'm an odd fellow, but I am who I am.

I like your interpretation of my name. It was more or less an accident that kind of caught on. Another passion of mine is news and diplomacy(and the behavioral sciences), and I used to write seriously on current events and philosophy. Some people seemed to like it, and I often used the moniker "The Truth Tempest". In retrospect, I'm a bit embarrassed by how bold that name was, but a few years ago, I started visiting more videogame websites and met someone named Spoony Bard. As a Final Fantasy 4 joke, I changed my name from "Truth Tempest" to "Truth Tellah". I kept on commenting as I had been, and I unexpectedly started receiving comments responding positively to it, replying with things like, "This guys tellahs the truth!" And it stuck. I've embraced it, and I try to live up to it as best I can. To be perfectly honest, a lot of what I say is simply a sincere opinion, not anything close to absolute truth, but then, I do attempt to be as personally truthful as I can be.

As for artists, I know what you mean. Many immature, overly prideful, or unprofessional artists do respond very harshly to criticism. Just this year, I was with an artist who received some rather biting criticism to his face about one of his pieces, and he took it down right off the wall and left. ha. That doesn't mean criticizing that art was wrong. That's simply an issue with the artist. Most artists I have known have gotten used to criticism, and the most successful ones can take quite a bit. It's a part of creating a lot and being a professional. I have seen for myself that the bigger splash you make, the more real criticism you receive. ha.

A lot of artists do take criticism of their work as personal criticism, and you know what? That's exactly right. What you create, whether it's tangible art or some kind of work, reflects part of you. A criticism of one of my pieces is very much a criticism of me. Yet, that's good. I'm not perfect, and my art reflects that. Even the greatest works have flaws and issues. And if I'm putting it out there, I'm hoping for responses, both positive and negative. An artist that can't take criticism of their work is a person that can't take criticism of themselves.

My pleasure man,

hah FF4? Nice. I should have caught that reference. That makes your name all the better.

Yeah I can tell you definitely take your craft seriously, but most visual artists I've met take a more, I dunno what the right term is for this exactly, bohemian (?) kind of view of art. Where they expect adulation or are in it for more self indulgent reasons. I like your viewpoint of personal accountability with the artist sense that appeals to my personal sensibilities, I think that's an absolute necessity if you want to earn a reasonable living doing art but I do wonder if your standard is a completely fair standard to hold all artists to.

I guess what's more important quality in Art, Self-expression or Craftmanship? I've long felt artists have a tightrope to walk between the two, but in my opinion it is the self-expression aspect that makes art a special uniquely human pursuit. There's almost limitless careers/skills that you can have as a professional, but not very many that you can exhibit self-expression like you can in art. And furthermore craftmanship is not exclusively a human trait.

So eventhough I'm a non-artist, I guess I'm sympathetic a bit to the bohemians in my city who hopelessly rent out rundown warehouses making their art no one will buy or value. I see an odd nobility in being that true to your self expression even if that's at odds your own commercial wellbeing.

And you're right of course, if art is a product of self-expression than criticism of of said art is likely a criticism of the artist her/himself to some degree. Hence why I'd never want to do it for a career and why I marvel a bit at people like yourself who can do such criticism while keeping an even keel. :)

I know I'm very ignorant of much about your craft, so hopefully my ramblings and banter don't offend.

I absolutely understand what you mean by whether artists focus more on craftsmanship or self-expression. I believe self-expression is the most important aspect of art, but craftsmanship also matters. It's like the difference between valuing that someone expresses themselves and valuing that someone expresses themselves well.

Personally, I believe that the best artists, and some of the best individuals, are those who both set out to express themselves and do it well. While there is value in speaking about what you feel and care about, there is more value in speaking about what you feel and care about in a way that's understandable. In a way that has impact. So, a great artist needs both something to say and the thoughtfulness to say it well.

Though, people have different intents with their art. For some, it is more insular, and the "effective" part of it is whether it makes a positive impact on themselves. They might be who you would consider bohemian, focusing more on their own gratification from creating something than focusing on whether anyone else gets it. On the other hand, if someone's intent is to communicate, the "effective" part of it is whether it has the potential to impact others. The same can be said of words. These words you are reading now are simply taps on a keyboard, conjuring up thoughts of what they represent. If these words do not convey something, then they are only futile taps on a keyboard. I believe that most people have something to communicate, and so, understanding how to use and understand words and other forms of communication is important.

If making art makes someone happy, that may be enough. Someone can keep their expressions to themselves and feel reassured in their own unique existence. For others, and very often for game developers, the intent is both to serve a purpose and convey something. Even if all you are able to provide is some level of entertainment, that has some value. A developer also hopes that a game is well-received, or at the very least, is experienced by many people. Enough to perhaps fund another project that keeps the dream alive.

If a game is simply torn down for being a bad game, that's different from a game being criticized for faults in the design. As a painter, you want criticism to focus on how you convey a subject or try to make an impact, and sometimes people will criticize issues they see with you latching on to tired tropes or distracting elements. That's welcome, as it shows investment from the viewer and a chance to improve for the future. What you don't want to hear is simply that your technical skills failed you. Like a game criticized for its bugs despite its other merits of design. That's likely just a mistake or an issue of priorities. Technical errors are not a part of your vision. That's when you see that your intended message was betrayed by your lack of skill or investment in conveying that message effectively without too many distractions.

I think this is one of the values of teaching art to people, because it's often less about the skill and more about how you look at things. Art has value as a symbol of self expression in a world where it is all too easy to lose a sense of self. Art is a matter of personal freedom even if you are in the strictest of cages. No matter what you do in life, you can do it artfully, and even if you are not working on a canvas or on a game, you can live like an artist in your own life. Even if they're not all fine arts, most things in life are arts. From talking to people, to being loving toward someone, to finding contentment in your job, to raising children, and so much else. These aren't exact sciences; these are areas of personal expression with results based on our effort and skill.

Art will never be perfect, because we'll never be perfect. So, failures and criticism are to be expected and even anticipated. They help you think about what you're doing and who you are, and they spur you on to do even better. There is great value in having passion and acting out that passion in your life. And while I may not always be making art, I will always be an artist.

Sure, humans are social creatures. As you pointed out we're often at best and achieve the most when interacting with other humans, whether it be through helping, sharing, communicating etc. That's not to say our individuality isn't important, but that you need some decent measure of both components to be happy.

That's one reason I never found Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged to be the resonant work so many claim it is. It and Objectivist theory (that's what her followers called it yeah?) just doesn't ring true to me as what I know to be biologically true of humans and really all primates in terms of fulfillment.

yeah I'm sure receiving craftmanship criticism feels a lot different than self expression criticism. That would have to be infuriating I'd think to not reach your goal for technical shortcomings.

dude your perspective has been fun to read. I guess I never really thought about understanding perspective (other than sight lines) being an essential component of art, but you make a compelling case for it. The only shame is that it's buried in this thread where many others won't ever see it.

Have you thought about writing a blog post about Art criticism in games?

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Depends entirely on the context.

I use the phrase for both.

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Thanks, Slag.

I definitely get what you mean. We do have our pictures of people, and they're quite often mistaken. ha. But hopefully for the better. I'm an odd fellow, but I am who I am.

I like your interpretation of my name. It was more or less an accident that kind of caught on. Another passion of mine is news and diplomacy(and the behavioral sciences), and I used to write seriously on current events and philosophy. Some people seemed to like it, and I often used the moniker "The Truth Tempest". In retrospect, I'm a bit embarrassed by how bold that name was, but a few years ago, I started visiting more videogame websites and met someone named Spoony Bard. As a Final Fantasy 4 joke, I changed my name from "Truth Tempest" to "Truth Tellah". I kept on commenting as I had been, and I unexpectedly started receiving comments responding positively to it, replying with things like, "This guys tellahs the truth!" And it stuck. I've embraced it, and I try to live up to it as best I can. To be perfectly honest, a lot of what I say is simply a sincere opinion, not anything close to absolute truth, but then, I do attempt to be as personally truthful as I can be.

As for artists, I know what you mean. Many immature, overly prideful, or unprofessional artists do respond very harshly to criticism. Just this year, I was with an artist who received some rather biting criticism to his face about one of his pieces, and he took it down right off the wall and left. ha. That doesn't mean criticizing that art was wrong. That's simply an issue with the artist. Most artists I have known have gotten used to criticism, and the most successful ones can take quite a bit. It's a part of creating a lot and being a professional. I have seen for myself that the bigger splash you make, the more real criticism you receive. ha.

A lot of artists do take criticism of their work as personal criticism, and you know what? That's exactly right. What you create, whether it's tangible art or some kind of work, reflects part of you. A criticism of one of my pieces is very much a criticism of me. Yet, that's good. I'm not perfect, and my art reflects that. Even the greatest works have flaws and issues. And if I'm putting it out there, I'm hoping for responses, both positive and negative. An artist that can't take criticism of their work is a person that can't take criticism of themselves.

My pleasure man,

hah FF4? Nice. I should have caught that reference. That makes your name all the better.

Yeah I can tell you definitely take your craft seriously, but most visual artists I've met take a more, I dunno what the right term is for this exactly, bohemian (?) kind of view of art. Where they expect adulation or are in it for more self indulgent reasons. I like your viewpoint of personal accountability with the artist sense that appeals to my personal sensibilities, I think that's an absolute necessity if you want to earn a reasonable living doing art but I do wonder if your standard is a completely fair standard to hold all artists to.

I guess what's more important quality in Art, Self-expression or Craftmanship? I've long felt artists have a tightrope to walk between the two, but in my opinion it is the self-expression aspect that makes art a special uniquely human pursuit. There's almost limitless careers/skills that you can have as a professional, but not very many that you can exhibit self-expression like you can in art. And furthermore craftmanship is not exclusively a human trait.

So eventhough I'm a non-artist, I guess I'm sympathetic a bit to the bohemians in my city who hopelessly rent out rundown warehouses making their art no one will buy or value. I see an odd nobility in being that true to your self expression even if that's at odds your own commercial wellbeing.

And you're right of course, if art is a product of self-expression than criticism of of said art is likely a criticism of the artist her/himself to some degree. Hence why I'd never want to do it for a career and why I marvel a bit at people like yourself who can do such criticism while keeping an even keel. :)

I know I'm very ignorant of much about your craft, so hopefully my ramblings and banter don't offend.

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#9  Edited By Slag

@hailinel said:

It's only as viable as far as you can stretch your fifteen minutes, so no.

pretty much this. Not too mention Google could change compensation rates/methods anytime.

But hey if you can make it work more power to ya.

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@slag said:

@truthtellah said:

I am an artist and a self-aware individual, and myself and my art are not a sacred cow above criticism.

Wait, Truthtellah is an artist? Dang, I would have never guessed that.

What is your medium?

heh. Not quite sure what that means, but yes, I am an artist. My specialty is classical oil painting, as that's what I trained in and focused on for many years, but I also studied 3D art and worked on videogames for a few years. I imagine that's a big part of why I continue to be so interested in videogames, and I have wondered recently about getting back into developing them. We'll see.

I've spent much of my life around artists and working as one; so, it's always interesting to see how people perceive artists. I'm a bit amazed at how many gamers act like videogame creators(aka. artists) are like fragile flowers that can't take serious criticism on possible concerns like this. Considering a lot of gamer culture, I can understand why some might think that, but their concerns are mostly unfounded. If they're serious about what they're making, they've already considered the possibility of people responding like this, and frankly, most of an artist's time is spent seeing the issues in what they create and trying to find a way to improve it. In art school and once your work is in galleries(or being sold), you learn about the value of sincere criticism, and a lot of times, you do hear people make very pointed criticism regarding the problematic aspects of your work. Not all criticisms are things you'll agree with, but if I can get a strong reaction and spark some discussion, that's not too bad a result. Many gamers' constant harassment is more likely to lead to censorship or someone just leaving the industry than gamers and critics providing real, substantive criticism and opinions.

If someone sincerely points out a possible issue, I'm much more likely to be unhappy that I missed seeing it than mad that someone might respond negatively to part of my work. Responding is -great-, and people will like some things and dislike others. That's just opinions, and I'm glad that my other favorite art form, videogames, have really started to receive more of that level of criticism and concern. That doesn't mean I always agree with criticism, but it's good that a diverse range of people are more openly expressing themselves with their praise and concerns about every aspect of videogames.

No insult intended, sorry if it came across that way Truthtellah. I was just pleasantly surprised by your revelation.

When you interact with somebody online you kind of subconsciously develop a picture of who you perceive that person to be (at least I do), often it's hilariously inaccurate in some respect or another because you are receiving very imperfect information. So when I see how wrong I was, it's mildly shocking yet gratifying somehow.

In my head I imagined you worked in HR or diplomacy or counseling for some reason. You seem like unusually pretty empathetic/perceptive person able to understand multiple viewpoints yet oddly enough aware of this perception of you by others to call yourself "truthtellah". So I figured you were in some career that directly utilized your people skills. Not that art doesn't/can't, but a high % of artists I've met do not have anything close to that skill. Very few of the ones I know handle criticism in the way you describe, or even could. They do definitely seem to love thoughtful feedback though.

Maybe I'm guilty of what you say many gamers do, but at least in my case my perception comes from experience going to galleries/knowing artists socially (probably around 60-80~ over my life so far). Handling that criticism is one of the many reasons I could never be an artist, I'd think I'd have pretty hard time not taking it personally so I'm sympathetic to people who do.

Classical Oil painting eh? That's pretty dope. Pretty different from 3d art, but I imagine it's a lot easier to pay the bills with graphic art design than Oil Painting. I've always admired a visual artist's ability able to create pictures out of nothing. To a non-artist like myself it looks like magic sometimes.

Well good luck with your artistic endeavors and hope you get back into games if that's what you want!