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snide

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Woah, got too many questions about Mass Effect 2

 OK. I guess there needs to be some clarification about my comments on TNT about Mass Effect 2 as I received way too many PMs on the subject. 
 
First let me start by saying that of all games released last year, I'd put Mass Effect 2 up there pretty high as the a game I would recommend to a random gamer I met on the street under the age of 30. This is strictly a personal opinion and more a commentary on the direction of the industry in general. This discussion is specifically only meaningful to those who are familiar with the history of Bioware and the Western RPG genre. 
 
It is of my opinion that Dragon's Age will likely turn out to be one of the last, if not the last AAA produced single-player CRPG. What do I mean by the term CRPG? As an acronym, Computer Role Playing Game. Put in less generic terms, the type of RPG that follows the traditions of the Rogue, Ultima, Gold-Box, Wizardry, Might & Magic and Infinity Engine era.  I leave out The Elder Scrolls mostly because it has never been a party based game, and always existed in real-time in the first perspective. In that sense, The Elder Scrolls series was always more about exploration than combat. My guess is that over time, even the Elder Scrolls style games will rapidly devolve into games more along the lines of Fallout 3. That is to say, action games with light, meaningless skill progression that exist in large, explorable worlds. Are they RPGs? Yes. Are they part of the same genre of the old CRPGs I love? No. They share more in common with Red Dead Redemption than Wizardry.
 
If you ask the majority of people what they like about RPGs, they'll normally talk about the story. But to be honest, the story in most video games is horrible, and outside of a couple true gems like Planescape, we're really talking about great stories in relative terms within the medium. What I, and I believe some people who grew up on CRPGs really enjoyed, was the complicated, challenging and more importantly... flexible combat systems that existed in those games. When you're asking me to pinpoint how I can consider this genre dead, I'm pointing to the tactical combat portion of it. The story in Dragon Age was relatively great, and by all means Mass Effect 2 seems to be better, but I thought Dragon Age was a great game because the combat was rewarding. 
 
The combat in Mass Effect 2 is boring. It's is a shooter more than an RPG. That's OK, I like shooters and I certainly like STALKER and BioShock, so what's the deal? Well, I also think Mass Effect 2 is a shitty, uncomplicated, floaty shooter with fairly meaningless skill upgrades that they are for the most part pre-set and easy to choose. Fuck yeah I want better shields. Fuck yeah I want better X attack. The actual combat involves me moving from set-piece to set-piece Gears of War style. See those barricades? Oh. I guess a fight is about to happen, I better go hide behind this wall where I'm suddenly impenetrable from anything. Because of the meatiness of the health and shields in these types of games, you largely die because of a lack of patience (trying to kill them too fast) vs. making bad decisions in strategy. I miss the puzzles of battle. I miss counterspells. I miss crowd control. I miss focus fire. I even miss the idea of things like tumble rolls. I miss knowing that in some battles I should take the mage out first, but in others I should prolly sleep his minions and take out the healer.
 
Please don't confuse this with me thinking games are too easy. I can up the difficulty in games like Mass Effect 2 and make them difficult. But that change normally only effects my caution, not my planning. I'll admit, I couldn't make it through Mass Effect 2. But that was because the fights at hour 15 were the same fights I had at hour 2. I just couldn't walk through any more barricaded chambers. The rock, paper, scissors shield mechanics created a formula that was static throughout the course of my time in the game.
 
I did enjoy the story and the characters for the most part. It's what got me through the first game. But once I found that I was going through another assemble the team style plot device (it was a weakness in DA too), even that couldn't keep me going. You want me to walk through all 3 ship decks with their individual loading points to get to the fun conversations? Ugh... at least in Dragon Age they were all sitting at that one camp. Morrigan was all of 10 steps away. Having to make my way through the ship in ME2 was the worst. I quit. I had to. I finished one of those world missions and went through all that mediocre combat and now I've gotta spend 30 minutes walking around just so that I don't feel I'm missing out on anything. Done. End. Rage Quit. 
 
But this is the new style of "RPG". They are essentially hybrid shooters with dialog trees. Deus Ex plus. Remember when Deus Ex 2 came out and the whole world groaned? That is what I think about Mass Effect 2. Oh... OK, so you took all the challenging bits out of a the good style of game you used to make (I'm talking infinity engine), made the world progression a lot more linear and made it so that it's impossible to totally gimp your character with the trade off that non of these skill choices really matter. 
 
It's certainly nothing new, and it's not Mass Effect 2's fault. If we're looking to point the finger, KOTOR is certainly the one that lead us here. I only chide Mass Effect 2 so much because I'm bitter no one is making combat CRPGs anymore. The Eastern Block style games are closest. They are both challenging and radically different. Say what you will about the technical qualities of games like STALKER, The Void or Amnesia. They are god-damned different that it takes you a couple hours just to figure out how to play them correctly. Look, that limits their appeal, but shit, that's what I enjoy out of games these days: a novel approach.  
 
I wouldn't be so mad about these games existing other than that they are pure replacements, rather than alternatives to the style of game in which they preceded. I wouldn't lose all hope though. There's still an audience for this stuff. We're not huge, but I get PMs almost daily from people who miss the old style combat CRPGs. That's what the independent gaming movement will eventually find. It's not just about games like Braid that push you outside of the mainstream to some higher plane, it's simply about reaching a smaller, passionate audience. We're out there and we're waiting. 

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Chris2KLee

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Edited By Chris2KLee

I love ME2, but I still love you too Snide. You can be my (CRPG) wingman anytime!

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FireBurger

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Edited By FireBurger

I really enjoy Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Mass Effect style games, but I completely understand what you're saying. I was too young at the time to appreciate earlier CRPGs, but I really enjoyed the strategy and added difficulty of Dragon Age (admittedly, I did play on 360, but I upped the difficulty/paused in combat). I definitely appreciate the ability to actually customize my party and character, and not simply "upgrade" them like you mention. 
 
Also, I know this isn't the main point of your post, but I think the main reason that people like the stories of RPGs is the fact that they can interact with them. Granted, universally speaking they are mostly sub-par to novels or films, but being able to affect them and interact with them elevates them to a level that other mediums simply can't achieve given their nature.  

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Animasta

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Edited By Animasta
@Doctorchimp said:
" @Laketown: Between Adept biotic combos and warp detonations and the infiltrator stuff...the class difference was pretty stark to me...  But if you played it all the same, more power to you. "
but there was one thing they did differently! you still shot dudes with the weapons bioware allowed you to have. There was no class dedicated to healing, a rogue, etc... they were all variations of the same class.
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cyraxible

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Edited By cyraxible

Dave, you're quite a wise man whose opinions I can appreciate.  GSC Game World has even commented publicly on how they think that Western publishers and game developers are scared of making their games difficult and I think that's where the CRPG decline has come from, diluting the CRPG formula to make it accessible to people who otherwise might be intimidated by the genre's nuances.  
 
I don't think that Mass Effect 2 was more of an RPG than GTA: San Andreas was.

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Venatio

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Edited By Venatio

It isn't surprising that a huge PC gamer like you that loves Dragon Age thinks Mass Effect 2 is a shitty game
 
Considering it's now one of my favorite games ever, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you

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fjor

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Edited By fjor

i agree with the upgrades stuff and explore the planets .....but other then that ME2 is still my goty

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megalowho

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Edited By megalowho

I lament the slow death of the CRPG genre as well, but I think (as you point out) you're projecting your frustrations onto ME2, which is really not an RPG in the classic sense at all and therefore tough to signal out as the replacement for a Dragon Age or Witcher style game. The combat was not much more complex in ME1, only clumsier and less accurate, and managing the inventory/loot system in the first game was even more of a chore than wandering through the Normandy in the sequel.
 
Valid criticisms and a well thought out article, your points about the paint-by-numbers leveling and out of place cover rang true for me.  I just don't think BioWare made ME2 the way they did just because they saw mass appeal and dollar signs - I legitimately believe their design decisions were based in trying to make a more fun overall experience for the player, and for me they succeeded. Still waiting for a pure indie CRPG to come along and scratch that old itch, but I can't blame ME2 for not being something it was not intended to be.

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thwak

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Edited By thwak

The AAA days of RPGs like wizardry and rogue are over. It just doesn't make sense for a studio to look at the design of those games and invest a lot of time and money into something outdated. 
 
Now there are still games like that, most of them are made in japan and released from the nintendo DS. If you really want a wizardry style game, go pick up The Dark Spire. If you really want a rogue-like game go pick up any number of Shiren the wanderer games. 
 
Hell there's even Heroes of Might and Magic style games being released these days in the form of the King's Bounty franchise.
 
The style of games you want aren't dead Dave, it's just that they're strictly niche. 
 
As far as mass effect 2 goes, I completely disagree but I'll leave it at that. I've gotten into too many arguments with jaded old school pc gamers. You'd be surprised how many people refuse to accept that x-com has aged poorly.

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Make_Me_Mad

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Edited By Make_Me_Mad

I understand where you're coming from, but strongly disagree with anyone saying that Mass Effect 2 is a bad game, or even a mediocre one.  Personally, I couldn't stand the old RPGs where you had to plan your character out 10 levels in advance to be worth anything.  Too much work, not enough fun.

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Doctorchimp

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Edited By Doctorchimp
@Laketown said:
" @Doctorchimp said:
" @Laketown: Between Adept biotic combos and warp detonations and the infiltrator stuff...the class difference was pretty stark to me...  But if you played it all the same, more power to you. "
but there was one thing they did differently! you still shot dudes with the weapons bioware allowed you to have. There was no class dedicated to healing, a rogue, etc... they were all variations of the same class. "
There's one thing different between Infiltrator and Adept?  
 
Setting up singularity choke points to strip a guy's shield to detonate him with warp and take out a few guys and remove their shields to pull and throw them was very different from my infiltrator playthrough where I activated cloak and shot people one by one as I moved around them. On the collector ship I didn't even shoot people on my adept playthrough since I was waiting for my cooldown and recharging my shields between powers.
 
By all means you could play the Adept like the soldier and just use his warp as a damage dealer, but's that on you dude.
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Nomin

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Edited By Nomin

The tragedy here is that the last developer who had championed this style, Bioware, got hidebound in developing for consoles and their goddamn controller schemes and had to scuttle much of what made these games in the way of tactical approach to combat. Mass Effect was them trying to hop onto the console cycle with training wheels, Mass Effect 2 is them furiously pedaling with full abandon toward console retardation. Of course they had to co-opt Dragon Age, which imo was not a great RPG (merely good) by any means, to latch onto their turd slinging business in Mass Effect, which they will also parlay into a me-too MMORPG which will fail horribly. Now the PC crowd has a bunch of indie developers from the Eastern block/slums and Obsidian hand-me-downs to look forward to, which does not bode a heartening outlook.  
 
Dave, I feel for ya, but for now on, all you have is a backlog of games that hearkens back to what was so unique about these games. DOSBOX is your friend, wish you visit games like Dark Sun from time to time. Maybe you could a quick look on those games to pique some interest, but don't think it would be worth the effort aside from this blog post waxing so poignantly about these games. I don't know why you think Dragon Age was so great, but I thought it was a meandering, level-scaled, combat-heavy and uninspired high fantasy that signaled the end more than anything.

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Chummy8

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Edited By Chummy8
@Doctorchimp said:
" @TekZero said:
" Totally agree with you!   I played ME 1 about 3-4 times.  When I heard that they removed the inventory system and the planet exploration, I hesitated in buying it.  Now with all of the GOTY talk, I'm interested in playing it, but what you've said only confirms my fear for the game.  In the mean time, there is always GOG.com... "
I think you totally misinterpreted what Dave is saying, he could go through the first Mass Effect but it's not like that was his favorite game of all time.  If you liked the first Mass Effect so much you went through it about 3 or 4 times then you'll probably dig Mass Effect 2 enough for at least one good playthrough. It's not like the first Mass Effect was the incredibly deep combat experience Dave is looking for in games either... Mass Effect 1 is actually more shallow in combat than Mass Effect 2 is. Dave was just fed up with the style of game that's all he was saying.  Unless you truly let that inventory system and repetitive planet Mako stuff become your favorite parts about the game... "
An RPG without an inventory system doesn't feel like an RPG.  I fear that the game has evolved into nothing more than a cover based shooter with a decent story.  Although, at $20, it is worth the purchase. 
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DeathByWaffle

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Edited By DeathByWaffle

Don't agree with you on some things, but I see where you are coming from.

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Onigenko

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Edited By Onigenko

I guess it's my PC background, but I totally have to agree with you, Dave. I miss the old school CRPGs. :( 

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Undeadpool

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Edited By Undeadpool
@snide: I'm writing an anti-fanboy rant that I plan to put up in Blog form (possibly multiple parts). Can I quote you (specifically from this) as how NOT to post like a fanboy (or in other words: how to post like a rational, thinking person). Cause I don't agree with you, I think ME2 was incredible, but you make your points using actual reasons and without buzzwords.
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animateria

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Edited By animateria

I think DA also lost some special touch compared to it's older siblings.
 
DA wasn't as enthralling as say, Baldur's Gate 2. 
 
I got bored of DA after awhile because those combat 'puzzles' always played out the same way every time.  (At least in ME2 the encounters moved faster)
 
 And the party dialog felt more forced rather than natural. Especially for the romance stuff (DA and ME both really).  
 
It felt like an overall step down from BG2.

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Jimbo

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Edited By Jimbo

I put a flexible storyline above the combat side of things, always (and I do believe the term 'RPG' applies more correctly to roleplaying a character than to anything combat/stat/loot related), but for me it's only when the two sides impact on each other that the genre really resonates and fulfills its potential.  The ideal is for story/character choice to inform the gameplay, and for gameplay to inform the story.  When one half doesn't inform the other, then there is a noticeable disconnect, almost as though you are just switching between two unrelated games.
 
You may be right that Dragon Age will be the last AAA game of the specific type you are talking about (though I think there's definitely room for smaller budget titles to flourish), but I don't think Dragon Age was particularly strong in terms of story and I found the combat even worse.  The combat in Dragon Age felt totally one-dimensional.  Once I had a full team, I used the exact same tactics successfully for pretty much every fight throughout the rest of the game - walk in, nuke any mages, mop up.  The problem wasn't the combat mechanics themselves, but that the fights and environments weren't used creatively enough to force you to change your approach.
 
I feel like the traditional Holy Trinity mechanic (tank, healer, dps) is totally played out at this point.  Until somebody comes up with a fresh and exciting approach to group combat, then I think this genre will continue to drift.  I'd really like to see somebody do to CRPGs what the Men of War / Dawn of War games did to RTS.  I want exciting and dynamic combat, where the environment is more than just a background texture.  If those sorts of games can still be successful at that sort of quality level (maybe not 'AAA', but not 'bad' by any means), then I think there's still room for roughly equivalent CRPGs in the same market.

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mrhankey

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Edited By mrhankey

I CAN GET BEHIND THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Still haven't gotten very far in Amnesia, but as a big fan of Eastern Block Games, maybe not so much the CRPG, I understand where you are coming from!
 
And even though I wasn't the best at DA, I loved it. 
 
@snide  What do you think of The Witcher?

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falling_fast

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Edited By falling_fast

I kinda wish bioware would open-source the Infinity engine.

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Jimbo

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Edited By Jimbo

The Witcher / The Witcher 2 doesn't fit what Dave is talking about at all.  If it goes anywhere it goes in the Mass Effect category.  If somebody is gonna sit there and tell me that The Witcher had 'complicated, challenging and flexible' combat then I am calling shenanigans on this whole discussion.

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sweep

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Edited By sweep  Moderator

This blog makes you sound like a cranky old man. 

Or an elitist bastard. Either way, this is basically a 9 paragraph equivalent of a "U MAD BRO?" jpeg. Personally I think that they stopped making awkward, janky, slow-moving, outdated RPG's for a reason ;)
  
 
 
Have you played any Machinarium yet?
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DaBuddaDa

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Edited By DaBuddaDa

There are dozens upon dozens of amazing CRPGs now. The genre has undergone a resurgence in the past ~5 years, just not from Big Important AAA devs named Blizzard or Bioware. You need to look harder; try Two Worlds II at the end of the month, it has sold a million copies worldwide before coming out in the US or the UK. Amazing, eh? There are a lot of CRPG nerds out there. Or go buy Risen for the PC if you haven't played it yet. Grab Divinity 2: Dragon Knight Saga on Steam. Ever heard of Drakensang? Great CRPGs, two of them have come out in the past 2 years. Neverwinter Nights 2 complete pack was just on sale for like, $10.
 
This year we'll see: Skyrim, Dragon Age 2, Grim Dawn, Risen 2,  The Witcher 2 and Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, among others.
 
No more doom and gloom! Bioware isn't the be-all-end-all of CRPG devs.

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Subjugation

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Edited By Subjugation

You guys took a rational blog and ran it into the ground. Too much bandwagon in here. I can respect Dave's opinion because he makes it clear that it is his opinion and isn't treating it like it is the law. I can't say the same for many of you. As someone who grew up on Baldur's Gate I and II I feel like I can identify with his musings on "rewarding combat." If you played those RPGs or any other built on the same rule set you would find rather quickly that playing on anything other than easy/standard difficulty *required* you to pause every turn to issue commands to your whole party. Trying to play it run and gun style would get you killed quickly. The gamers of today are a totally different generation, one that I feel is largely of the instant gratification mindset. At the end of the day all of these game companies are still companies and realize that mass market appeal is what keeps them in business. If they can make a deeply rewarding product along the way then that is a bonus. 
 
Part of me wonders how much the nostalgia factor comes into play when this rosy opinion of CRPGs is being thrown around. I speak from experience because I have tried to go back and play some of the older games that I had very fond memories of and found that they just don't do it for me anymore. 
 
Oh, and I very much enjoyed ME2. To each their own.

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Shabs

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Edited By Shabs
@snide said:
Well, I also think Mass Effect 2 is a shitty, uncomplicated, floaty shooter with fairly meaningless skill upgrades that they are for the most part pre-set and easy to choose. Fuck yeah I want better shields. Fuck yeah I want better X attack. The actual combat involves me moving from set-piece to set-piece Gears of War style. See those barricades? Oh. I guess a fight is about to happen, I better go hide behind this wall where I'm suddenly impenetrable from anything. Because of the meatiness of the health and shields in these types of games, you largely die because of a lack of patience (trying to kill them too fast) vs. making bad decisions in strategy. I miss the puzzles of battle. I miss counterspells. I miss crowd control. I miss focus fire.  
 
On Normal I agree that the skill upgrades are meaningless. 
 
To me what you want seems to be describing Mass Effect 2 on Insanity.  If you think you can brute force it with some patience, I think you'd be wrong. Enemies need to be debuffed and don't die fast enough for you to be patient. Crowd control, managing the right abilities for your style with your class, and taking down threats quickly before health regenerates are all important. Positioning your teammates is important.
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KillyDarko

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Edited By KillyDarko

I pretty much loved Mass Effect 2 for its characters more than anything else, really-- I can't remember a single memorable combat situation in either one of the games. The storyline for Mass Effect 1 was actually quite good and epic, so I was happy to play it. Mass Effect 2 barely has any kind of plot though, other than assembling a team, but on the other hand it has some really great memorable characters and dialogue. And that is why I play it; I probably wouldn't care less if the game would only be you talking with these people, I think my overall rating would still be the same.
 
As for games like STALKER and Amnesia, it kinda really saddens me that that an independent gaming website such as GB doesn't truly support this kinda of games, for they are, for the better and for the worse, pretty much the only alternative there is to the rampant growth of "cloned" shooters out there. While most AAA games may indeed look awesome, they all pretty much play the same these days-- on the other hand, gems such as Amnesia and last year's Cryostasis (for example) are such unique experiences that have no match in today's gaming scene. Which is a shame, really...
 
I picked Amnesia: the Dark Descent as my GOTY for this year over Mass Effect 2 and everything else that was released precisely because it was... truly remarkable. There are a few levels in that game that I doubt I will ever forget for as long as I live, and that obviously doesn't happen often. But I don't want to go way off track here, so I'll stop. But if you haven't played Amnesia and you're interested in knowing more about it and why despite its technical flaws, I still think it was last year's best game, just read my review about it, right here.
 
Finally, I just want to say that yes, that are plenty of awesome games out there, but IT IS A SHAME that almost every single game these days has to be all about adrenaline and shooting and being fast and furious (no pun intended). I truly miss games like Planescape: Torment..... i.e. the kind of games that have no match out there, games that can't really be compared to anything else.
Sadly, I'd go further than Dave and risk saying that it's not only the CRPG genre that is dead... I think we will never again witness a AAA game that is truly unique and challenging. So yeah, thank you independent developers (mostly the european ones) who still manage to come up with novel and engrossing interactive experiences!

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snide

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Edited By snide
@Sweep: I am a cranky, elitish old man and this is definitely a rant. Yes, I played Machinarium, it's a good deal of fun and I liked their take on the hint system. 
 
@Undeadpool:
This is most certainly a fanboy post so I wouldn't use it as an anti-fanboy example.
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eroticfishcake

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Edited By eroticfishcake

I feel pretty disappointed that just because one guy on the staff has a different opinion on one game (or a select type of games) almost everyone has to shit on him for it. But whatever, this is the internet. Anyway, yes, you make a very good point about combat and RPGs relative to games these days. Whilst I did enjoy Mass Effect 2 I certainly found the combat in DA: O much more rewarding in comparison. Sure I just remembered the other day when I was going through ME2 again that both games are about assembling a team but that aside, the combat in DA: O is more challenging because it is, as you say, like a puzzle. Chances are that you will die a lot if you run in battles willy nilly but once you figure out the skills, the combat feels a lot rewarding. You feel smart every time you do it. 
 
It may have to do with the fact that I've had some good experience with CRPGs before but despite that I still found the combat in DA: O much more satisfying then ME2 where I spent most of the time trying to find better upgrades and experience points to fight the same sort of battles again and again throughout the galaxy. I could harp on more but I'm really tired right (as a result of half a bottle of wine) but god damn it Dave you got my back on this. 
 
And for the record, I did enjoy ME 2 a lot despite the flaws that I've been reminded of very recently.

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bcjohnnie

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Edited By bcjohnnie
@Snide: Fuck yeah Dave!  I'm glad you expanded on this, since when you mentioned this yesterday I had a feeling this is what you were getting at.  CRPGs used to be hella difficult, complicated, and richly rewarding.  You had to make real decisions about stat points and skills, and the combat was slow and required thought.
 
I never finished Baldur's Gate, but it was a completely different experience from anything I've seen on a console.  You couldn't just throw out spells like confetti, and potions weren't stacked 20 high and bound to a button.  This makes me sound like a cranky old man too, but I should explain that I generally enjoy modern RPG's as well, but they are not the same as what I was raised on.  I would actually write things down on paper to figure out how to best equip my Might and Magic IV & V party, and there's really no equivalent planning needed anymore.
 
I'm glad you talked about this also because it really pinned down what I found unsatisfying about ME2... I really hated that I seemed to be the only person I knew who didn't like the game.  The story is compelling, and I still like that world quite a bit, but I just got bored of that combat to the point where I didn't feel like finishing it (although I think I am going to give it another go now).  Anyway, I liked this post quite a bit.
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ht101

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I definitely see where you are coming from and while I haven't played many CRPGs, I tend to play ME as one since I love to pause the game, figure out what powers to use and then go from there.  However, you dismissing Mass Effect 2 because it's not the type of game you wish it was is something I can't get behind.  I do agree that it sucked that they took out a bunch of the RPG elements in ME2, and hopefully Bioware will put some of the things back into it, like earning experience for everything, making the skill trees more like ME and bringing back the inventory and customization of the weapons, shields, grenades, etc...  The last thing I"ll say is keep being honest about what you like in games and the types of games you like because that is what makes Giant Bomb so great.

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Karkarov

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Well on the one hand I feel you and on the other I wonder what games you are playing.  Wizardy is still alive, just you have to speak japanese unfortunately.  Games like Baldur's Gate are still made (for example Drakensang from a couple years ago), just it is all German companies etc doing it.  You do give credit to those European developers though.  American devs are just doing what they have to do to make money and as long as gamers keep buying CoD etc you can forget about ever seeing a real successor to Baldur's Gate.  
 
PS: DA:O was NOT tactical.  The only fights that needed any kind of planning were specific story encounters and certain boss fights.  I played on the pc at the second hardest difficulty setting and never had to micromanage anything other than making Wynn cast a aoe heal here and there.  Baldur's Gate on regular difficulty you would need to micromanage and create a plan just to get to the toilet.

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FritzDude

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You're a madman Dave, A madman!

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ChickenPants

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@weeman105 said:

" You guys took a rational blog and ran it into the ground. Too much bandwagon in here. I can respect Dave's opinion because he makes it clear that it is his opinion and isn't treating it like it is the law. I can't say the same for many of you. As someone who grew up on Baldur's Gate I and II I feel like I can identify with his musings on "rewarding combat." If you played those RPGs or any other built on the same rule set you would find rather quickly that playing on anything other than easy/standard difficulty *required* you to pause every turn to issue commands to your whole party. Trying to play it run and gun style would get you killed quickly. The gamers of today are a totally different generation, one that I feel is largely of the instant gratification mindset. At the end of the day all of these game companies are still companies and realize that mass market appeal is what keeps them in business. If they can make a deeply rewarding product along the way then that is a bonus.  Part of me wonders how much the nostalgia factor comes into play when this rosy opinion of CRPGs is being thrown around. I speak from experience because I have tried to go back and play some of the older games that I had very fond memories of and found that they just don't do it for me anymore.  Oh, and I very much enjoyed ME2. To each their own. "

Your criticism of people in agreement with Dave is pretty unfair. Since the start of GB Dave gained a lot of supporters/fans because he was seen as basically the ''PC guy'' in a console dominated environment.  By extension his views on the CRPG genre, as portrayed in his lists/blogs, were also echoed by many bombers. So it is of no surprise that there are a lot of people who share the same feelings and this extinct genre of gaming.
 
I agree with you on the ''instant gratification'' aspect though. People need little numbers to pop up over enemies heads when they kill them. They need to feel constantly rewarded and incentivised. Same reason nobody watched The Wire. Pacman CE DX is a good example of this too. It's one of many reasons as to why CRPGs are dead.
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ArbitraryWater

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Edited By ArbitraryWater

In some ways, I have to agree with you, perhaps more than even some of the other people on this thread. Because my computer is generally crappy, I've gone out of my way to play some of the older RPGs out there, even before I started blogging about them. I was exposed to stuff like Baldur's Gate II and Might and Magic VI years after they came out, but those have managed to be some of my favorite games of all time. My favorite old game of 2010 was Wizardry 8, which I finished with total and utter satisfaction at doing so, narrowly beating out X-COM for that honor. Basically, what I'm saying is: "I'm right behind you on this one" Dragon Age (and I assume its sequel) are odd in that they are based around complex, strategic combat in this day and age. Which is why Dragon Age was my favorite game of 2009.
 
Of course, on the flipside, a lot of the old games I encountered have either been totally inaccessible (Ishar), or quite frankly outdated with questionable design and mechanical choices (Arcanum). You have to remember that there's occasionally a reason other than "Games are now being made for idiots" that they've stopped doing some of this kind of stuff. Nonetheless, the best examples of the genre have held up for the most part (Anything Infinity Engine, Wizardry 8, I would argue Might and Magic as well).
 
However, I must disagree with you about Mass Effect 2. I thought the first game's attempt at being an RPG shooter hybrid was at best competent and at worst, horrendous. Bioware understood this. You just have the problem of looking at ME2 as an RPG, when it's pretty much just a 3rd person shooter with some great characters and dialog trees (thus, my GOTY of 2010).

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wolf_blitzer85

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@Doctorchimp said:
" @Ramboknife said:
" In my opinion, the combat is only boring in ME2 if you let it be...you can choose different classes and combine all of the special abilities to make some pretty cool combos and whatnot.  "
Yeah I have to agree with you, when Brad was saying how the game is pretty much a shooter now and he only played as Soldier I rolled my eyes and sighed "oh Brad".  An adept on insanity is amazing fun.
I was just about to say, if you play something else other than a shooting class, the game's combat at least becomes a little more dynamic albeit not by much. The only reason I really liked ME2 was the fantastic universe that I get completely lost in every time. It's just too bad that everything else about it (chest-high walls signifying an encounter, stripped as hell stats, basically no inventory) left me just wanting more out of the game and at times missing going through my inventory in ME1 to check if there were better weapons or armor to equip even if it was a terrible clusterfuck of loot. 
 
Give me heavily fleshed out stat/skill management, an insurmountable amount of loot, and I will be super happy. It is unfortunate that that style of game is dying in lieu of a more streamlined user accessible model, but maybe there could still be a future for this style of game, but just like everything else, change will come about and it might just not be as recognizable anymore. It's just a matter of how willing we are to put up with these changes, and hope that not all developers have forgotten how to make me spend two game hours on a character sheet alone.
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Beatus

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It is depressing to watch some of the premiere CRPG studios turn their backs to classic CRPG gameplay citing "evolution" as the reason for the change in style.  I too miss the traditional CRPG play style: to plan, react, buff, heal, cast. It's a dying breed and it's a shame. 
  
Despite my feelings on certain IP's going the wrong way, I have no problems with the changes between Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I actually thought the traditional RPG tropes - such as the inventory system - didn't work well in this series. It's too bad that admitting what my preferences are in the Mass Effect games will result in BioWare assuming I'd prefer these changes in their other IP's as well. I wish business didn't work like that.

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Getz

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I don't think the state of Computer Role Playing Games is any sorrier now than it used to be. They've always been niche games, appealing to a very specific type of consumer and not selling very many copies. So what if Bioware isn't making them the same way anymore? There's still always going to be old-school RPGs as long as there's a market for it. Picking on Mass Effect seems a little gauche; it's not like it comes from a lineage of computer role playing games. It was designed as an experiment in console RPG development and it worked exactly as intended. Doesn't Bioware deserve their success?
 
You're starting to sound like a crotchety old man, Dave. There's still plenty of games out there for you.

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snide

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@DaBuddaDa said:
" There are dozens upon dozens of amazing CRPGs now. The genre has undergone a resurgence in the past ~5 years, just not from Big Important AAA devs named Blizzard or Bioware. You need to look harder; try Two Worlds II at the end of the month, it has sold a million copies worldwide before coming out in the US or the UK. Amazing, eh? There are a lot of CRPG nerds out there. Or go buy Risen for the PC if you haven't played it yet. Grab Divinity 2: Dragon Knight Saga on Steam. Ever heard of Drakensang? Great CRPGs, two of them have come out in the past 2 years. Neverwinter Nights 2 complete pack was just on sale for like, $10.  This year we'll see: Skyrim, Dragon Age 2, Grim Dawn, Risen 2,  The Witcher 2 and Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, among others.  No more doom and gloom! Bioware isn't the be-all-end-all of CRPG devs. "  
Have played every one one of these games you mention, most to completion (obviously have not played TWII yet, but I didn't like the first one). Only Drakensang fits in the style of RPG I'm discussing and it was a ho-hum clone of Neverwinter Nights. The rest of them are mostly focused on action and very limited upgrade mechanics. Neverwinter Nights 2 is an amazing game, but fairly old at this point and is basically what I'm calling out to in this post.
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Edited By Undeadpool
@snide: I still say by avoiding fanboy buzzphrases ("Dumbed down," "Hand-holding" etc), you're a fanboy in the literal sense rather the pejorative. A fan, not a fanboy.
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Edited By Green_Incarnate

Kinda agree with Dave, but with less street cred. I played Dragon Age on consoles and Kotor is my favorite game of all time. But I would love a better combat system. Even the first Mass Effect had better combat IMO. 

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tourgen

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Edited By tourgen

Great post.  I count myself in the group of people who love a good CRPG.  I grew up with them.  I was getting a little tired of the healer-tanker-dmgdealer dynamic in combat though.  It was leaned on so hard that in some games it felt like that was the only valid way to play through the combat.  I loved crowd control, debuffs, finding unique cool combos of abilities, and the combat puzzles too.  Yeah, I really miss CRPGs.  I was also bummed out that Mass Effect 2 stripped out the fun bits of RPG that it had.  I still had a great time playing it though.

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salad10203

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Agreed with all but the KOTOR part, I love that game.

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snide

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@ArbitraryWater: You are correct that I'm picking on Mass Effect 2 unfairly. I'm only projecting so hard because it's made by BioWare. I think it's a well-crafted game that will appeal to the majority of people. I certainly understand why many people pick it as the game of the year. I just happen to like the book better than the movie.
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Great Post Dave, I loved the difference in style between Dragon Age on console and Dragon Age on PC. I am in the midst of building a gaming rig to experience more in-depth, turn based role playing games.  
 
Now, don't get me wrong, I loved Mass Effect 2 and haven't a bad word to say about it, I do, however, think there is a bigger market out there a lot of people don't see because, as you say, Dragon Age is the last AAA title out there which hones a 'time honoured' experience, although again, Dragon Age on console feels a lot more like a Mass Effect style game than the PC version.  
 
As someone looking to go back and play some of the great CRPG games (Thanks for the acronym I can now use, by the way) I'd love to see a list of your favourites Dave!

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Edited By Hailinel

Given that Bioware seems intent on taking up the mantle of the definitive RPG developer, it's upsetting to see Mass Effect 2 as not really all that much of an RPG, and I'm really not a fan of the changes that they're making between Dragon Age and Dragon Age II.

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Rhaknar

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why the fuck does Dave even have to justify himself for not liking a game

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This sounds like an old man ranting about the kids these days.
 
I agree with the sentiment that the world needs more great CRPGs because I loved Dragon Age and I want more.  However I'm far too pluralist when it comes to gaming to not appreciate both.  But I have to ask at what point to CRPG's (like MMOs) just become work.  I play far too many games to feel frustrated at sitting down and figuring out how to get past this one part in this one game.
 
I miss the RPG elements that were present in ME1 but I understand the motives and I think Dave does as well.  I just happened to really enjoy the gameplay in Mass Effect 2 and so did...pretty much everyone else that played it.
 
I think the part that's legitimately frustrating is that in the name of CRPGs the parts that make Mass Effect (2) unique have been ignored or diminished.  Namely the characters, the world, etc wrapped in what is at least a competent 3rd person shooter with very light RPG elements.  I don't subscribe to the idea that games are obgliated to be a certain way to be good.  This is why I could care less that Dragon Age (as long as its good) may be moving away from the CRPG-ness of the original.
 
I guess I'm kinda disappointed Dave was as crotchety as he is about games but I guess that's why he's not a reviewer :)

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Edited By Jimbo

Cryptic's Neverwinter might have some potential here.  If they're smart about facilitating and incentivising high quality community content then they have a chance.  
 
Cryptic's biggest problem is that they suck at making good content and they suck at making enough of it, so give the community the tools to do it and let them do most if it.  Maybe make the base content F2P and then a small subscription (or pay-per) for access to the extra stuff, with a cut of it going back to the content producers, based on popularity of the content.  Build up a bit of a cottage industry around the game and there shouldn't be a shortage of decent content.

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tourgen

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Edited By tourgen
@Laketown said:
" @Doctorchimp said:
" @Ramboknife said:
" In my opinion, the combat is only boring in ME2 if you let it be...you can choose different classes and combine all of the special abilities to make some pretty cool combos and whatnot.  "
Yeah I have to agree with you, when Brad was saying how the game is pretty much a shooter now and he only played as Soldier I rolled my eyes and sighed "oh Brad".  An adept on insanity is amazing fun.  I still have to agree with Dave though, the CRPG genre is dead as people are trying to push their games more and more into the mainstream, judging from the Dragon Age 2 they have been showing that looks like it's going the hack and slash route too. But we'll wait and see. "
I've never played soldier but I don't think the other classes play as differently as you think. "
They most certainly do.  The Vanguard played properly plays like nothing else in the game, or any other shooter I've every played.
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Glak

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Damn Dave, this is why we love you 
People are overly defensive of Mass Effect 2, or any game they like in general 
This is also what I love about Giantbomb, you guys back everything up with lots of reasoning, so even if people disagree they have to respect your opinion 
Great post Dave

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FluxWaveZ

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I don't get where you're coming from at all. I'm 17 and I don't believe I've ever played a CRPG before so I have no feelings of nostalgia influencing my view on things. From an outward and perhaps ignorant perspective, those styles of games almost seem obsolete and rather boring to me. I loved Mass Effect 2 and I disagree that there is no planning involved when you play the game on Insanity. It's not only an increase in awareness that will prevent you from dying at harder difficulties, but you need to debuff enemies and make effective use of your teammates abilities and your own to survive. Sure, if you play the generic Soldier class on Normal you will feel invincible just as long as you pay attention, but just changing your class to Adept and manipulating your biotic abilities to go around obstacles and hit enemies adds strategy. 
 
To me, CRPGs just seem slow and tedious and even uninspired with their reliance on specific styles of play (healer, tank...). There are ways to incorporate strategy into RPGs without needing to constantly rely on pause screens. But heck, I've never played one so what do I know.