Why Project Natal is bullshit and people applauding it are dicks

The sense of touch is a god damn important thing to a whole lot of people. The Wii controllers at the very least let you feel things through rumble, and the basic sensation of holding a physical object. What this kind of utter bullshit does is take Sony's fuckup removal of the rumble from their SixAxis and multiply that by dozens. Even if it works as advertised, they have effectively removed the ability to feel what you are doing. You have a system where the user makes a larger physical investment and receives even less feedback than before. There is literally no tactile feedback to this system.

Relaxation is out the window, you require a larger space for gameplay (not to mention multiplayer), and game designs are forced to rely on a technology that, unless this is SCI-FI HAPPY FUN LET'S-PRETEND-HOUR, is nowhere near as precise as even the cheapest mocap rig you'll find out there. A simple depth-aware camera (looks stereo to me) simply will not be enough. Kudo's hilarious attempts at demoing the mocap (even though this was an early version) and watching the thing freak the fuck out speaks volumes. I don't even want to get into the lighting conditions this thing probably requires.

This shit is Playstation Eye all over again. Look forward to waving your hands popping balloons, and not feeling a god damn thing when you do. Technology trumping the user experience, what a fucking hoot.

I'm actually kind of *angry* with people who think the next evolutionary step in controllers is removing buttons altogether. Say what you want about the Wii, pairing triangulation with accelerometers is a very solid first step towards a motion sensitive controller that is precise enough for gameplay and still capable of providing physical response. Maybe it's time someone stepped up and looked at gloves again? Jesus christ, let me FEEL something!

Guess it needs saying that i'm a 360 owner and i love the system.

Edit: The "dicks" thing is sort of tongue in cheek :P It's just my gut feeling. People wanting to take my toys away. Grr.

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Posted by Sunjammer

The sense of touch is a god damn important thing to a whole lot of people. The Wii controllers at the very least let you feel things through rumble, and the basic sensation of holding a physical object. What this kind of utter bullshit does is take Sony's fuckup removal of the rumble from their SixAxis and multiply that by dozens. Even if it works as advertised, they have effectively removed the ability to feel what you are doing. You have a system where the user makes a larger physical investment and receives even less feedback than before. There is literally no tactile feedback to this system.

Relaxation is out the window, you require a larger space for gameplay (not to mention multiplayer), and game designs are forced to rely on a technology that, unless this is SCI-FI HAPPY FUN LET'S-PRETEND-HOUR, is nowhere near as precise as even the cheapest mocap rig you'll find out there. A simple depth-aware camera (looks stereo to me) simply will not be enough. Kudo's hilarious attempts at demoing the mocap (even though this was an early version) and watching the thing freak the fuck out speaks volumes. I don't even want to get into the lighting conditions this thing probably requires.

This shit is Playstation Eye all over again. Look forward to waving your hands popping balloons, and not feeling a god damn thing when you do. Technology trumping the user experience, what a fucking hoot.

I'm actually kind of *angry* with people who think the next evolutionary step in controllers is removing buttons altogether. Say what you want about the Wii, pairing triangulation with accelerometers is a very solid first step towards a motion sensitive controller that is precise enough for gameplay and still capable of providing physical response. Maybe it's time someone stepped up and looked at gloves again? Jesus christ, let me FEEL something!

Guess it needs saying that i'm a 360 owner and i love the system.

Edit: The "dicks" thing is sort of tongue in cheek :P It's just my gut feeling. People wanting to take my toys away. Grr.

Posted by The_A_Drain

EyeToy was awesome for about 3 hours. I'm not giving an opinion on the subject, i'm just fondly remembering the EyeToy for the few hours of entertainment it gave me.

Posted by Sunjammer
@The_A_Drain: Well that's all fair and good, i'm not knocking a gimmick product that does what it sets out to do. The EyeToy was a fun toy. What bothers me is the notion that this is somehow the way forward. That just freaks me out
Posted by Soap

I can totally see your point, but I have to admit watching it live I was totally blown away by it. I thought the idea of not feeling anything would be a bit of a let down however, but I guess, like with most things we will just have to wait and see.

Posted by super_machine

Good point. This is very comparable to the PS eye in a lot of ways. Maybe they figured out a better way to translate movement to input. We shall see. But without the right software, this technology, as sony has demonstrated is just a gimick. There is a reason why people aren't saying the PSeye did it first, because it didn't create enough impact on gaming for people to really notice. Again software is the key. If a a bunch of Sony devs came out and said more games would have exclusive interactive cutscenes using the PS eye It might be more popular.

Posted by The_A_Drain
@Sunjammer:

Like I said, 3 hours, that was all I got out of it.

If this is anything the same, then that's likely to happen again, which will make me happy, then sad, then pissed off. In that order. Luckily I got my EyeToy for free, but paying for this is where the third step (pissed off) will come in. Not that I intend to buy it off the bat, I don't. But I honestly think it's too early to judge, because it sounds like this might have a lot more uses than EyeToy, but it all depends what people do with it.

Honestly, if they replicate that arcade game that had motion sensors, and was basicly Time Crisis except you had to dodge bullets/take cover yourself (by physically moving) then it gets a purchase, i'm a sucker for light gun games. But i'm sure it has other cool uses, devs just have to think of them, then get them funded and out the door.
Posted by RsistncE

Fully agree.

Posted by Sunjammer
@The_A_Drain: Police 911 was awesome. Actually, if the Natal is considered an ADDITION to the regular controller, maybe then we're talking.
Posted by get2sammyb

Yes, I totally agree. And as for Milo. Well that was absolutely scripted bullshit edited in a way to grab headlines but is totally not feasible by current day AI or technology. Physically impossible in this year, on this day on XBOX 360.

Edited by ocdog45

OMG!!! BRAVO kid. you just made my day. this was so funny.

Posted by The_A_Drain
@Sunjammer:

Now that is the way forward :D
Posted by Icil

I don't think you've fully seen through what the implications are. I think you're right in that the Natal alone is worthless, but I think that any game dev worth their salt will use this tech in far better ways than Molineux.

I imagine it starting simple and slowly integrating into our gameplay. Say you're shooting dudes in an FPS with a controller and decide to lob a grenade with your real life hand. Natal picks up your hand's arc and the strength of your throw is calculated instantly. Sounds better than holding a grenade button for three seconds to 'charge' it, or looking toward the sky to throw a hail mary nade. In this case, I'd say Natal improves our control and gameplay.

Hell, when I saw the demo all I kept thinking was, "If you thought Mass Effect had good character interactions. Imagine Mass Effect with this tech." I bet Molineux plans to put a bunch of Milos in a third Fable (if he wants to make one, that is.

Posted by tuesdaythe5th

I think sitting down in front of my TV, it seeing its me and logging me into my profile is pretty hot.

Posted by Sunjammer
@Icil: Well again, that is if Natal works ALONG the regular controller input, but even then, developers won't be able to rely on end users actually having the thing, so it'll probably boil down to things like the speech commands in Tom Clancy games, things you can do with button presses but have voice command macros. Which of course is always hilarious because you wind up using buttons anyway because they're quicker.

Launching a controller/peripheral like this is a dangerous thing to do because it fragments the market to a large extent. It forces developers to take more destructive decisions early on in the process, as a game that ONLY supports Natal will only be bought by Natal owners, and a game that PARTIALLY supports Natal will have to make the Natal functionality optional, and a game that does NOT support Natal simply invalidates the device. And i am so, so tired of saying Natal.

Regardless, in these cases the 360 controller will be relied on for physical feedback, and Natal will be used for macro type input. Which again sort of invalidates the device for core games. I read this as MS attempting to eat a chunk of the casual pie while using the high-tech-next-gen-look-what-we-can-do angle to try and calm down their fundamentally core userbase.
Posted by SoulEdgeSlayer

Playing actual games on it will probably not be great, but the touch free menus and voice recognition while selecting movies, as well as the family friendly game show, look to be good and fun.

Also, this will take the place of the old camera for the 360, so that means there was a damn good reason that You're in the Movies was being sold for so cheap!

Posted by Sunjammer
@tuesdaythe5th: Yeah i dig the face recognition. That's neato
Posted by TheDoorman

Uh yeah not really to excited about this either. Its ok i guess but as long as they dont force it onto games ill be fine.

Posted by Sunjammer
@SoulEdgeSlayer: I dunno dude, do you really want to wave left or right every time you want to make a horizontal step in a channel? Considering how god damn often you have to do that? Hell, they could throw in some smart voice recognition instead, just let me say the name of the thing i'm looking for and have it go to the best guess. There are way better ways to use non-tactile controls than gestures
Posted by Clubvodka

I think it looks really really cool. If it works great, it it doesn't it'll be a shame

Posted by SoulEdgeSlayer
@Sunjammer said:
" @SoulEdgeSlayer: I dunno dude, do you really want to wave left or right every time you want to make a horizontal step in a channel? Considering how god damn often you have to do that? Hell, they could throw in some smart voice recognition instead, just let me say the name of the thing i'm looking for and have it go to the best guess. There are way better ways to use non-tactile controls than gestures "
I get where you are coming from, but that can all be streamlined.  A large arm motion could be just like hitting RB or something like that. 

Don't get me wrong, it will be very odd and I don't think that many people will embrace it (this is based on the quality and sales of most other cameras/specialized controllers made for consoles).  I will, however, give it the benefit of the doubt, and calling the people who are excited about it dicks is pretty harsh.
Posted by FCKSNAP

I just think they're making a mistake in making it seem so seamless. USB is far too low in quality for what this making it seem to be. Although it seems like a great idea now for the minigames they showed off, no one will want to ask Milo if he wants to play Halo with this.

Posted by Clubvodka
@Snapstacle:
I want to play Uno Rush with him, fast and 13 cards.
I also want to compare real life problems with his virtual ones. Oh Milo I'm sorry you find school boring and you have to draw a fish for art but meanwhile in the real world global warming is destroying the planet.
Posted by IncredibleBulk92

They weren't talking about the Natal as a traditional controller, their not talking about replacing the standard Xbox 360 controller or even integrating the Natal into existing games.  Their talking about this as a completely seperate product aimed at a more casual audience than I suspect frequents this site.


This won't be a required piece of equipment to play any game you own and based on your reaction you may never own a game that would support a system like this.  It won't be used in multiplayer or anything like that.

Calling people who are interested in new tech dicks is a bit extreme.  I'm not going to buy this thing but I'm not going to chase down people in the street because they looked at it twice.
Posted by Icil
@Sunjammer said:
" @Icil: Well again, that is if Natal works ALONG the regular controller input, but even then, developers won't be able to rely on end users actually having the thing, so it'll probably boil down to things like the speech commands in Tom Clancy games, things you can do with button presses but have voice command macros. Which of course is always hilarious because you wind up using buttons anyway because they're quicker.Launching a controller/peripheral like this is a dangerous thing to do because it fragments the market to a large extent. It forces developers to take more destructive decisions early on in the process, as a game that ONLY supports Natal will only be bought by Natal owners, and a game that PARTIALLY supports Natal will have to make the Natal functionality optional, and a game that does NOT support Natal simply invalidates the device. And i am so, so tired of saying Natal.Regardless, in these cases the 360 controller will be relied on for physical feedback, and Natal will be used for macro type input. Which again sort of invalidates the device for core games. I read this as MS attempting to eat a chunk of the casual pie while using the high-tech-next-gen-look-what-we-can-do angle to try and calm down their fundamentally core userbase. "
Well said. If a game makes it optional, it will probably suck so much that everyone reverts to the controller. (your Clancy example is spot on) And again I agree that devs making a high-quality game will probably stick to the safer wager of using controllers instead of becoming Natal-aware (coined it!).

I think that because of the small latency in recognition, any hardcore gamers can't possibly use the Natal as the primary controller. My hope's that it takes a secondary role in control and makes for some more interactive game sequences or controls. I'm sure Microsoft wants Natal to be in the spotlight, though, so that's not a good prospect I suppose. =(

It's probably true that really good Natal integration wouldn't happen unless it was in the console's hardware or something. I bet the price will be outrageous, too. I wager 100$.

They should have thought of a better name. Or give it a superfly, hip nickname.
Posted by jakob187

Congratulations.  You've proven that you don't like exercising or movement in general.

Posted by TripMasterMunky
@IncredibleBulk92 said:
" They weren't talking about the Natal as a traditional controller, their not talking about replacing the standard Xbox 360 controller or even integrating the Natal into existing games.  Their talking about this as a completely seperate product aimed at a more casual audience than I suspect frequents this site.

This won't be a required piece of equipment to play any game you own and based on your reaction you may never own a game that would support a system like this.  It won't be used in multiplayer or anything like that.

Calling people who are interested in new tech dicks is a bit extreme.  I'm not going to buy this thing but I'm not going to chase down people in the street because they looked at it twice.
"
I agree with this. They're not expecting you to play Gear of War 3 on Natal. That's why they have the controller. Natal is just used for a different market of games.

And I think the topic creator is a dick for making a topic calling other people dicks because of their opinion. Grow up.
Posted by End_Boss

My name is End Boss and I support this thread's original message.

Posted by cinemandrew
@Sunjammer said:
" The sense of touch is a god damn important thing to a whole lot of people. The Wii controllers at the very least let you feel things through rumble, and the basic sensation of holding a physical object. What this kind of utter bullshit does is take Sony's fuckup removal of the rumble from their SixAxis and multiply that by dozens. Even if it works as advertised, they have effectively removed the ability to feel what you are doing. You have a system where the user makes a larger physical investment and receives even less feedback than before. There is literally no tactile feedback to this system. Relaxation is out the window, you require a larger space for gameplay (not to mention multiplayer), and game designs are forced to rely on a technology that, unless this is SCI-FI HAPPY FUN LET'S-PRETEND-HOUR, is nowhere near as precise as even the cheapest mocap rig you'll find out there. A simple depth-aware camera (looks stereo to me) simply will not be enough. Kudo's hilarious attempts at demoing the mocap (even though this was an early version) and watching the thing freak the fuck out speaks volumes. I don't even want to get into the lighting conditions this thing probably requires.This shit is Playstation Eye all over again. Look forward to waving your hands popping balloons, and not feeling a god damn thing when you do. Technology trumping the user experience, what a fucking hoot.I'm actually kind of *angry* with people who think the next evolutionary step in controllers is removing buttons altogether. Say what you want about the Wii, pairing triangulation with accelerometers is a very solid first step towards a motion sensitive controller that is precise enough for gameplay and still capable of providing physical response. Maybe it's time someone stepped up and looked at gloves again? Jesus christ, let me FEEL something!Guess it needs saying that i'm a 360 owner and i love the system. "
It's a gimmik,and that's probably all it ever will be. I doubt this will really change the focus of the system, or the industry as a whole, so no need to get so upset about it really.
Posted by Icil
@IncredibleBulk92 said:
" They weren't talking about the Natal as a traditional controller, their not talking about replacing the standard Xbox 360 controller or even integrating the Natal into existing games.  Their talking about this as a completely seperate product aimed at a more casual audience... "
Ugh. That argument makes me feel like it's all just Microsoft trying to bite into the Wii's pie. Totally makes sense considering Wii's success, Microsoft would dump money to get this kind of thing out as quickly as possible =(
Posted by The_A_Drain
@Icil:

Everybody want's a piece of everybody elses pie. That how the world has always worked.
Posted by fillmoejoe

What disturbed me more was them basically saying this technology is enough to keep them from making the next XBOX.

Posted by keyhunter

Unlike what the eye toy and Wii did, this is actually a step forward in controlling shit in an interesting way technology.

Posted by Sunjammer

I'm all kinds of pro new technology. The dicks are the people who are removing tactile feedback. That's my main beef. I'm all for new motion control methods, but i basically DEMAND that i can actually feel some sort of response. I don't think it's crazy to imagine people holding random household objects when playing a tennis game using the Natal just to get a sense of weight in there, or that there will be a peripheral market for "junk to hold", such as gun peripherals that the Natal will pick up etc.

This has sort of become derailed. I don't really mind a new EyeToy style addon, as much as i'm not going to buy it there's certainly a market segment for that kind of thing. The notion put on by MS and their partners however is that this is some sort of brilliant new advance in controller technology that will change how people play games, and to that i say people have flailed around in front of cameras for quite a while, and that this sort of tech actually REMOVES integral parts of the game playing experience that are, for me at least a big part of why i keep coming back to it.

It feels good to press a button and see a system respond.
It feels good to drive off the track and hit the gravel and have the controller rumble in your hands.
It feels good to grab a controller tightly when you're playing a scary game and it's a tense moment.
It feels good to physically hand the controls over to a friend.
It feels good to pull a trigger, hear the bang, feel the rumble, see the enemy fall.
It feels good to gently nudge a stick forward to move closer to an edge without overstepping.

These are positive vibes i personally feel when playing games, and things that i connect emotionally to the controller. This is why users argue over which controller feels the best, which sticks are the best, button layouts, yadayada. They connect physically with the way they play the game, where the goal is effectively to eliminate guesswork between the player and the way the system responds. This is the absolute ESSENCE of control scheme designs.

I simply don't want to guess wether a gesture will be picked up or not. So give me a super sensitive, super analog motion sensing controller that actually responds to me physically. Give me a sense of touch in games. That is what we are missing for the circle to be complete. Not REMOVING it. Two steps forward, 3 steps back. Damn you, dick scientists.

Posted by EpicSteve

It's not a big deal. Of course Microsoft is going to do something to compete with Wii. I think it looks fun, but I'm also an open-minded person who doesn't mind moving.

Posted by PercyChuggs
@Sunjammer said:
" The sense of touch is a god damn important thing to a whole lot of people. The Wii controllers at the very least let you feel things through rumble, and the basic sensation of holding a physical object. What this kind of utter bullshit does is take Sony's fuckup removal of the rumble from their SixAxis and multiply that by dozens. Even if it works as advertised, they have effectively removed the ability to feel what you are doing. You have a system where the user makes a larger physical investment and receives even less feedback than before. There is literally no tactile feedback to this system. Relaxation is out the window, you require a larger space for gameplay (not to mention multiplayer), and game designs are forced to rely on a technology that, unless this is SCI-FI HAPPY FUN LET'S-PRETEND-HOUR, is nowhere near as precise as even the cheapest mocap rig you'll find out there. A simple depth-aware camera (looks stereo to me) simply will not be enough. Kudo's hilarious attempts at demoing the mocap (even though this was an early version) and watching the thing freak the fuck out speaks volumes. I don't even want to get into the lighting conditions this thing probably requires.This shit is Playstation Eye all over again. Look forward to waving your hands popping balloons, and not feeling a god damn thing when you do. Technology trumping the user experience, what a fucking hoot.I'm actually kind of *angry* with people who think the next evolutionary step in controllers is removing buttons altogether. Say what you want about the Wii, pairing triangulation with accelerometers is a very solid first step towards a motion sensitive controller that is precise enough for gameplay and still capable of providing physical response. Maybe it's time someone stepped up and looked at gloves again? Jesus christ, let me FEEL something!Guess it needs saying that i'm a 360 owner and i love the system. "
You take games way too serious. Relax dude, and enjoy them.
Posted by ArbitraryWater

I kind of agree with the original post. No amount of half-assed camera motion stuff is ever going to be precise as a regular controller (or hell, even a wii remote)

Online
Posted by IncredibleBulk92
@Icil: To be fair it doesn't seem like it's as quickly as possible to me.  It's taken them what? 3 years to develop a product that isn't just the normal controller that does the odd thing in random games and nothing else.  They seem to have made a completely new product (Ok a PS EYE +1)  and made some cool stuff that might appeal to both audiences.  They've made something that you might not be completely embarassed to show off to your girlfriend and maybe something that a mother might buy for her daughter.  That section of the press conference wasn't for you, it wasn't for the TC, the other 90 minutes of the conference was.

Microsoft are trying to have a slice of the Wii's pie, they've been trying for years.  Luckily their still listening to what we want too.
Posted by Coltonio7

If you don't like it, don't buy it!

It's not for you apparently.

Posted by cinemandrew
@The_A_Drain said:
" @Icil: Everybody want's a piece of everybody elses pie. That how the world has always worked. "
I disagree. No one wants a piece of my pie.
Posted by Systech

yah 1 kn0w. m1cr0$0ft iz being way lamesauc3 about this 'Project natalie" shit. Its a disgrais to hardquore gamers everyhwere!!1!!

Posted by Sunjammer

Hell yeah i take games seriously. 24th year of playing them and counting, 8th year of working with them. There is an art here that i love, and removing tactile response is like translating your favorite novel into SMS language.

Posted by AgentJ

I think that the technology is intriguing, but i have to put my hands on it before i give a judgement. After all, we remember what the difference between the wii controllers potential and its capabilities were, which is why the Motion plus is coming out now. I really, really like the idea of going through menus with the wave of my hand, but i dont think it'll be precise enough to use with gaming

Posted by Systech
@Sunjammer said:
" Hell yeah i take games seriously. 24th year of playing them and counting, 8th year of working with them. There is an art here that i love, and removing tactile response is like translating your favorite novel into SMS language. "
Evolution, mother fucker. Deal with it.
Edited by IncredibleBulk92
@Sunjammer: After reading all these posts you're making I kinda understand your point.  I would hate it if MS were destroying all normal 360 controllers and forcing us to use the Natal on MW2 but they're not.  They're making original applications for it.  I'm 100% sure that less than 5 games I buy will ever have Natal compatibility beyond menu browsing.  This technology will not negatively effect your gaming experience unless you let it.  MS made one of the best controllers ever created (ihmo), their not about to ditch it
Posted by Nasar7
@get2sammyb:
@get2sammyb said:
" Yes, I totally agree. And as for Milo. Well that was absolutely scripted bullshit edited in a way to grab headlines but is totally not feasible by current day AI or technology. Physically impossible in this year, on this day on XBOX 360. "
Srsly man, I know, robotics researchers around the globe would collectively roll their eyes if that saw that crap.
Posted by Sunjammer
@systech: Evolution is a process of flawed mutations dying so the successful ones can go on. I don't think removing a whole system of perception is in any way a successful mutation.
Posted by Sunjammer
@IncredibleBulk92: I don't really worry about the 360 though. I worry about the idea itself, and the next generation.
Posted by Coltonio7
@Sunjammer said:
" @systech: Evolution is a process of flawed mutations dying so the successful ones can go on. I don't think removing a whole system of perception is in any way a successful mutation. "
LOL PWNT SCIENCE
Posted by Clubvodka
@TripMasterMunky said:
"
@IncredibleBulk92 said:
" They weren't talking about the Natal as a traditional controller, their not talking about replacing the standard Xbox 360 controller or even integrating the Natal into existing games.  Their talking about this as a completely seperate product aimed at a more casual audience than I suspect frequents this site.

This won't be a required piece of equipment to play any game you own and based on your reaction you may never own a game that would support a system like this.  It won't be used in multiplayer or anything like that.

Calling people who are interested in new tech dicks is a bit extreme.  I'm not going to buy this thing but I'm not going to chase down people in the street because they looked at it twice.
"
I agree with this. They're not expecting you to play Gear of War 3 on Natal. That's why they have the controller. Natal is just used for a different market of games.And I think the topic creator is a dick for making a topic calling other people dicks because of their opinion. Grow up."

I agree! And theres nothing wrong with dicks, most of us have them...I say most
Posted by SoulEdgeSlayer

 

@systech said:
"
@Sunjammer said:
" Hell yeah i take games seriously. 24th year of playing them and counting, 8th year of working with them. There is an art here that i love, and removing tactile response is like translating your favorite novel into SMS language. "
Evolution, mother fucker. Deal with it. "
As funny as that was, it definitely isn't evolution.  If it was, it would be comparable to that kinda cool but unnecessary third leg.  Sure, you can surprise a few people with a stealth kick, but not many people want one.
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