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Tomorrowman

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Violence Is Killing Our Creativity

Whenever you see a report on video games in the mainstream press it's usually about one of two issues; violence or sex. While every form of entertainment will bemoan that he media picks out the worst of their industry to report on, I'm of the opinion that we as gamers really do this to ourselves. Those shock pieces that Fox news (news?) ran about ultra violence in games used to be a poor representation of the medium I enjoy. It seems that I have less and less of an argument these days when people tell me games are nothing but killing for the point of killing.

Call of Duty : Black Ops is the best selling game on the Xbox 360. The story is an attempt at a story, but mainly a vehicle to move you from one explosion or shocking moment to another. What do I remember about the storytelling, the directing, or the presentation? Jack shit, really. There was something about numbers and a guy who puts on his sunglasses at inappropriate times, and I think I killed Hitler or something but then it was ACTUALLY Hitler it was a body double or some bullshit. What exactly do I remember about Black Ops? I remember pulling a Vietcong out of a boat into the water, plunging a knife deep into his throat and nearly decapitating him. His head hung by a few sinews of muscle as blood poured into the river. It was fucking disgusting. I felt dirty for playing it.

That's just 30 seconds from just one of the top games out there. Gears of War? Guns with fucking chainsaws on the end of them. Apparently shooting a dude just doesn't get it done with enough style.

I'm guilty myself of putting literally hundreds of hours into the Battlefield series. I don't even bother to play the story mode, either. I just jump straight into the multiplayer, grab an mp5, and start shooting. I've been known to spend 8 hours straight trying to kill enough people to unlock a new gun, just show I can keep killing people quicker.

I'm not some sheltered soccer mom. I understand that we are the descendants of Vikings and Gladiators. The reason we are alive today is because our ancestors were ruthless, merciless killing machines. They wiped out every competing civilization and sent their seed down through the family tree. It's in our blood to kill. Our culture is saturated by blood from movies to music. You can't escape it and, in moderation, it's healthy. We need that release. Every day I put on an ugly polo shirt and stand in a small room pushing buttons. The animal instinct in my is suppressed in the name of civility. That's a good thing, but there's an animalistic side to all humans. It builds up in us and we seek out those forms of entertainment that turn our release valve from dancing to horror movies. Give me an hour on Battlefield 3 setting fire to the earth to reset my stress level. A new gun unlock and I'm ready for another day wearing an ugly polo.

But with movies I can watch a violent slasher film, sure, but I can also watch a comedy. There's a pretty even distribution I feel of genres so we can explore every side of escapism we need. Every movie released isn't a gorefest. I can go to the art gallery and see gruesome depictions of hell and suffering from a renaissance painting, or I can get lost in the psychedelics of at abstract piece to ponder god. WIth games, my options as a core gamer are mainly limited to violence.

I've already touched on the AAA titles that have little story to back up their bodycount, but even the games that have stories that elicit real and earned emotions are usually about putting a bullet in the bad guy. The Uncharted series has better storytelling and pacing that most summer movies, but I struggle to find the series protagonist, Drake, the relate-able every-man they are going for seeing as by the end of the game you've mowed down hundreds of rent-a-cops. I will freely admit that on more than one occasion the Mass Effect series succeeded in bringing tears to my eyes, but the main goal still was to blow up a race of invading space robots. Hell, even Mario is about smashing a giant turtle to save your girlfriend. No romantic comedies here my friend.

But would a Jennifer Anniston RomCom be fun to play?

The difference between art and movies and games is that a game has to be fun to interact with. To an outsider Medal of Honor and Call of Duty look identical, but to a gamer we know it's all about how that game feels in your hands. How smooth does the character control? How satisfying is the feeling you get from pulling the left trigger? When I push the B button is the resulting action on screen good enough to release the dopamine I so desperately crave? In the case of Battlefield, pulling the trigger and watching the enemies' jet go down in flames it is a yes......a definite yes. But would pressing the B button to serendipitously get into the same taxi as Kate Beckinsale be just as good?

We've seen limited but cult success in the games industry for games not featuring violent conflict as the main draw. The Sims series is probably the best example of this. Most everyone is familiar in one way or another with the Sims, the quirky 'life simulator' in which you create a family and simply live their lives for them. Everything from taking out the trash to getting up early enough for work is in your hands. It allows us to explore the 'what if's' in every day life. You can sleep with the man at the bookstore or tell scandalous lies about your boss to usurp the throne. You can even start a life of crime or become the next president of the free world. Everything is essentially what you make of it. So go ahead and create Kate Beckinsale and John Cusack, hijinks await!

I'm a huge fan of the Harvest Moon series. They all start pretty much the same - a distant relative has passed on leaving you the family farm in their will. So you, a city boy/girl, pack up and move to the country. The mayor of the town shows you your new farm (which is more of a dump than you could have imagined) and gives you a tour of the nearby town. From their the game is about managing the daylight. You try to fit in as much planting, milking, picking, sheering, and clearing as you can into one day without passing out from exhaustion. Maybe today you want to take it easy on the farm and go into town to balance your frienships you've been forming over the years. The townspeople usually reward you with interesting stories and gifts as you become more of a member of the community. Love and marriage can bloom eventually, giving your character a much needed morale boost as he comes home to his spouse at the end of the day.

Animal Crossing lets players experience the trails of home ownership and relationship juggling as the only human in a town full of eccentric anthropomorphic animals. You'll dig up fossils, wish on stars, and collect sets of matching furniture in your quest to pay off the slumlord Nook the Raccoon.

While these games tell stories of human drama and relationships, none of the match the level of a Benjamin Button or Shawshank.

We're working on it, though. Heavy Rain, while ultimately the video game version of Seven, had some very quiet and emotional moments. Controlling a dad as he played with his kids in the backyard gave the story so much more kick when said kids later meet horrible fates. I was the one that pushed my son on the swing set, and now that I have to crawl through a tunnel full of broken glass to save him, I'm that much more invested. Trying to not go too far into spoiler territory, Heavy Rain managed to balance story telling and action in a way games hadn't seen before. As Ethan, you don't kill countless no name baddies on your way to save your son, instead your put through awful trials by a serial killer to see how desperate you are to see your son again. At one point your asked to cut off your own finger in under two minutes or he'll kill your kid. You desperately scramble around the room looking for something, anything to cut your finger off. I spent all my time gathering up medical equipment such as gauze and realized I was quickly running out of time to find an actual implement of amputation. Less than 30 seconds left to start my stomach churning task, I ran to the kitchen, grabbed a bottle of whiskey and a pair of rusty poultry scissors. What followed was the most haunting piece of gaming I've ever played as I chugged the whiskey and balanced my button presses between hacking away at the bone and trying not to pass out from the pain. Sure, it was violence, but it was violence other than chainsawing a billion space aliens. It was human drama. A man going over the edge to save his son.

Games have a long way to go before games like Heavy Rain sell as much as Call of Duty, but I believe as the medium continues to evolve we could see a higher level of maturity being asked from our biggest game companies. Violence doesn't have to be sensless. Thankfully we're starting to see more and more examples where the point of the game isn't that killing is fun, but that violence is sometimes necessary to serve the story. One bullet can be more meaningful and impactful than the millions I've spent in battlefield as long as there is a well developed human pulling the trigger. We will get there eventually. I just hope all this violence doesn't kill the creativity in the process.

As far as sex in video games......well, we could always use more of that.

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MordeaniisChaos

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HYPERBOLE!

Duder, it's really hard to do a lot of stuff other than sports and violence, without getting into sim stuff. Truth is, there is a lot of stuff that isn't terribly violent. Even typically violent games like Deus Ex allow you to play without killing anyone. Racing games are awesome these days, no killing there. Sports games... well they don't have any violence, that's for sure! And plenty of games on the Wii are fairly non-violent, for obvious reasons.

I think the problem comes when people see dudes shooting other, realistic, based on real cultures, dudes. We are at war, at the moment. An unusual thing for the games industry, because it has been an extremely public, and lengthy thing. And it has seeped into our culture. Hell, I'm going into a career to become a killer, no way around it. (To be clear, not like, learning skill that allow me to say, murder folks. I'm joining the military. And if you go there I'm just gunna ignore you so don't bother.)

I'd love to see more diversity, but I'm fucking tired of the hipster/hippy approach to it. Because it's not diversity, you're just injecting your dumb ideals of poser emotion into games that have existed since the beginning of time. Games like From Dust or whatever, those are good examples of neat new ideas.

This is just the stage we're in. Military shooters are the thing because, honestly, the military is a thing right now. Used to be everything was weird sci fi or fantasy. I'd say there's plenty of diversity, from Skyrim to ArmA to SimCity to Forza to Minecraft to Journey.

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Tomorrowman said:

@Brodehouse: I completely agree. Heavy Rain will never sell more than Call of Duty, I said 'as much as'. I feel like the gap between shooter and non-shooter in our market is still too wide in terms of success.

You're also right that this is in every medium. I do feel, however, that games could do more as an interactive medium to bring more context to the killing, make it more impactful. Not every movie succeeds in that, and not every game will either. I just think the body count to emotional impact quotient is way off.

I think that's a fair point but I think we are on the precipice of the violence having an impact in some games. I'd point you to Max Payne 3, where the killing often feels uncomfortable, and what I've heard about Spec Ops the Line which suggests the same thing. The Last of Us also seems like it'll do that too.

It's interesting and I think we will see more of it. It won't be in every game though and I'm glad because that shouldn't be what every game is trying to do.

Shouldn't killing feel uncomfortable? Isn't the whole "problem" with violence in video games that it makes you not react to violence and somehow therefore more likely to perform it? I don't see why there are people in this thread talking about Max Payne 3 as being overly violent because it seems like it's aiming (or at least managing) to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

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JoeyRavn

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@Ares42 said:

How people can talk about how videogames are all about violence when Nintendo is one of the biggest operators in the market is beyond me.

Ignorance? Or maybe ill will against video games (read: "any major news corporation that panders to soccer moms and neocon dads")?

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TheDudeOfGaming

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*adjusts monocle* I fully agree sir, huzzah! Seriously though, violence is awesome.

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ArtisanBreads

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@MordeaniisChaos said:

@ArtisanBreads said:

@Tomorrowman said:

@Brodehouse: I completely agree. Heavy Rain will never sell more than Call of Duty, I said 'as much as'. I feel like the gap between shooter and non-shooter in our market is still too wide in terms of success.

You're also right that this is in every medium. I do feel, however, that games could do more as an interactive medium to bring more context to the killing, make it more impactful. Not every movie succeeds in that, and not every game will either. I just think the body count to emotional impact quotient is way off.

I think that's a fair point but I think we are on the precipice of the violence having an impact in some games. I'd point you to Max Payne 3, where the killing often feels uncomfortable, and what I've heard about Spec Ops the Line which suggests the same thing. The Last of Us also seems like it'll do that too.

It's interesting and I think we will see more of it. It won't be in every game though and I'm glad because that shouldn't be what every game is trying to do.

Shouldn't killing feel uncomfortable? Isn't the whole "problem" with violence in video games that it makes you not react to violence and somehow therefore more likely to perform it? I don't see why there are people in this thread talking about Max Payne 3 as being overly violent because it seems like it's aiming (or at least managing) to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

.... I was saying Max Payne 3 makes me uncomfortable and succeeds at making violence have weight.

Also there is nothing wrong with violence with no weight and it doesn't make rationale people "more likely to perform it" at all.

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Beaudacious

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Edited By Beaudacious

How about I say sandbox games, and say screw your scripted story or scripted violence?

I hate these conversations cause all of you treat the medium in the same manner as films. I'll make my own story, and I'll decide how violent, how much sex, or how much comedy, and drama I want in my games.

My most memorable experiences in games have all been in sandbox games.

Playing DayZ I've had a much more dramatic, emotional experiences then anything Heavy Rain could ever hope to achieve with scripting. The violence in DayZ is completely up to you, and it can varry so greatly.

Playing the X series, building my empires, putting billions of dollars on the line in epic battles. Facing the possible loss of the last two weeks of gameplay in a matter of 30 minutes.

In the words of Jaffe, fuck your story be It comedy, drama, or action, give me great gameplay, and the emotions will come naturally.

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kerse

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Edited By kerse

I'm pretty sure most of us would love more games that don't have a focus on shooting dudes, unfortunately we don't make those calls and the guys who do usually get that information about 2 years too late. There can be plenty of creativity in shooters though its just that the call of duty style is the only type of game some people buy, the people who were brought into games buy cod 4 and mw2 and will leave video games when they stop being made. Also unfortunate that portion of consumers is a significant amount of us. Not blaming cod, but its what happened.

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RedRavN

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Darksiders, devil may cry, alice returns, metro 2033, dragon age, and the witcher 2 are all violent games that are also very creative in and of themselves. So whats your point exactly? Seems to me you just want games without any gameplay as if thats suposed to "evolve" the medium in some meaningful way. Have you ever noticed that the best books and movies generally contain physical and/or emotional violence as central aspects to their stories?

Why not just play games you like instead of forcing your opinion of what you like as the superior form? Maybe games like call of duty sell well because thats what most people like. You can always enjoy your quicktime event game heavy rain with its weak story and all even though that game is as dark and violent as it gets.

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MikeGosot

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Edited By MikeGosot

Maybe i'm part of the problem, because, holy shit, i love some violence. But i don't think violence is killing creativity, because you could argue that the Darkness was a pretty creative game, and you rip people in half and eat their hearts in that game.

Give time to the medium, dude. The industry is pretty young, and we're already seeing some experimentation with themes: Like in Catherine, or in Heavy Rain. Besides, the industry is still struggling to marry gameplay and story, or to use gameplay to evoke certain emotions. But hey, like i said before: give some time to the medium and things will be okay.

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Ramone

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Journey is the top selling game on the PSN store

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Tomorrowman

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Edited By Tomorrowman

You guys are really making some very good points. I would just like to put it out there that I don't think Black Ops and things like that are bad games by any means. Like I said in my post I'm addicted to Battlefield. It's my favorite online game of all time. I've put more time into military shooters than I can count.

I'm just saying that there could be so much more to gameplay than a shooter level being 250 non descript baddies waiting to soak up your bullets.

Let's Peter Molyneux this up and say......"What if you took Treyarch and had them make a FPS, but only let them have 5 bullets for the whole game". We could do with some changing of the archetype. Shooters, bare bones wise, haven't changed a bit since Doom. I think what The Last Of Us is going for is super intriguing.

Not every game has to be like this, but I'm glad to see that we're starting to explore the possibilities of seeding other types of story genres into our games other than 'action'.

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Vinny_Says

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Edited By Vinny_Says

Stop comparing video games to movies. Games don't need conflict resolution to be good, movies do.

Seems to me like you're just looking in the wrong place, it's like looking for Lysol in the freezer section of a supermarket.

Also who are we to say that playing with your virtual son in a park is more creative than stabbing a Vietcong?

Your entire argument comes of as completely empty, but I applaud your attempt; at least it's not another "what's your favorite song of 2012?" thread.

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SexyToad

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Edited By SexyToad

I know what you mean. Gta is just about killing and be stupid in a city. I won't lie, I like that game though. I don't think all games need to have a story. People nowadays like shooting games, and I'm one of them. But my favorite game is still Minecraft which doesn't involve shooting and mass murder.

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AssInAss

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@Tomorrowman

@Brodehouse: I completely agree. Heavy Rain will never sell more than Call of Duty, I said 'as much as'. I feel like the gap between shooter and non-shooter in our market is still too wide in terms of success.

You're also right that this is in every medium. I do feel, however, that games could do more as an interactive medium to bring more context to the killing, make it more impactful. Not every movie succeeds in that, and not every game will either. I just think the body count to emotional impact quotient is way off.

You should play Spec Ops The Line.
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darkstorn

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Edited By darkstorn

Violence in games can undermine the credibility of our chosen medium, at least in the eyes of the mass media. That being said, there are numerous video games that contain violence but are ultimately innovative.

I'm more concerned with video games being derivative than violent, although often the two go hand-in-hand (i.e. military shooters).

Sure, games can overdo violence, but that in itself ain't such a bad thing.

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Dookysharpgun

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Edited By Dookysharpgun

Creativity isn't being killed by violence in videogames, creativity is being killed by the fact that the audience wants violence. You seem to be shining the spotlight on the games, instead of the problem of the audience who lap that shit up. Simple fact is that shooters are what sell, people want them, big publishers sieze on that fact, and only really back shooters because the market has such a large profit potential. Like how everyone is trying to get into the MMORPG market and trying to contend with WoW...and failing...I don't like MMOs, but a lot of people do, therefore we don't really get money sent the way of more classic-RPGs, adventure games, and platformers in the form of triple A games nowadays. Just look at the market for fighting games! I mean, holy crap, when you have tournaments for FPS' or fighters, you know that's where the real money is, so why go anywhere else? I hate the crap out of it, I think it's depressing as shit that the industry isn't taking chances with the triple A market in order to breach into some new territory, but safe bets are safe bets...the fact that game budgets are bloated beyond considerable reason means that you've pretty much got to guarentee a huge sale, otherwise you're working at a loss...it sucks, and shows how the model of the industry has aged badly, but as long as you've got publishers whose only interest is making money, you're not going to see miles of creativity for any game coming out that isn't self-published.

Sure, Indie devs get to release some interesting titles, but they're few and far-between, I'm not saying they're terrible in the majority, but so much shit gets mixed in, it's hard to tell the good from the bad, games like minecraft are simple, but they allow the actual player the creativity to go forward and do what they want, giving them the incentive to explore and discover more items that can help them do what they want to...but that's one idea out of a possible million that reached the light of day. Hell, the only interesting game in the triple A market I've seen is that amazinf spiderman movie tie-in, just for that fact that they've introduced a more fun looking web-swinging mechanic, and it's a blatant copy of the arkham games in many ways.

Now in terms of your movie genre-related argument? It isn't the same. Movies have a beginning, middle and end that aren't influenced by the viewer, they happen, you watch, but you don't interact. Comedy is notoriously hard to pull off in games, really taking a skilled writing team to make a moment that will genuinely make you laugh, like Nathan Drake's retorts, or some of the more comedic moments in those lego games. But comedy is in the eye of thee beholder; in Arkham City, I laughed when I could remove the tape from Harley Quinn's mouth and then put it back over it again, it reminded me of the TV show...other people say that as horrible and deaming and terrible...the point remains that as a genre, comedy doesn't work in games unless it's intertwined with another genre, like action or adventure, and even at that, it has to be done well. Creativity is also highly difficult when you're working in an industry that is so one-track minded about what sells, that every other idea seems like a bet that isn't worth placing.

Also, I view Animal Crossing as a game set in a dystopian future where gene-splicing has become the new thing, and you're one of the only normal humans left on the planet, forced to live among the beast-people who you have to be nice to, otherwise a weird mole thing will appear and threaten to delete your save, and therefore your existence, from the world, basically making you a slave to the new world order, you have no option but to comply, feigning happiness, but maintain your humanity, eventually learning to accept your place in this world. See, you see it as nice, I see it at something utterly fucked up and horrifying.

Anyway, long story short, don't blame the system, it gave people what they wanted, they just didn't know that it would have a cost...I mean, the graphics on games are amazing, they may look even better when next gen rolls round, but those graphics cost devs money to build games around...so things will only get worse before they get better, and really, it's our own fault, we did ask for this, however differently we want to frame it, it's our fault.

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mandude

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Edited By mandude

Violence and sex transcend all cultural and language barriers. Of course they will always be the best selling games.

I'd be more in line with saying Profit is Killing our Creativity.

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Edited By BoG

I really like what the OP has to say about the reasons for a lack of diversity. Ultimately, it comes to whether or not interaction with the game is fun. If you have a good story, but the gameplay sucks, you would be better off writing a book or making a movie.

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Jay444111

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@BoG said:

I really like what the OP has to say about the reasons for a lack of diversity. Ultimately, it comes to whether or not interaction with the game is fun. If you have a good story, but the gameplay sucks, you would be better off writing a book or making a movie.

Yeah... the line of thinking is AWFUL and with it, we would have never had games like Alan Wake or Deadly Premonition. Story is just important in video games as gameplay is these days. I know I am going to be flamed for that. But to be quite honest, I don't give a damn about that. A game without a story is completely meaningless and is undeserving of being in my video game collection completely. While ones with stories/great stories are fully accepted.

Besides, the only good games from the past are almost all storybased ones (the only exceptions being nintendo kids games.) Gameplay can get horribly dated while the story a game holds can't age and will hold up the game completely. Just look at the first MGS game!

No Caption Provided

This game has not aged well in terms of most gameplay elements. However the story is worth going through such a collective mess. With that way of thinking about games. We would have NEVER gotten games like Bioshock or Nier or Metro 2033 to even games like Half life 2! Story matter dammit! However it may not matter with a game when it first comes out. Later on it will be remembered as a classic because of it's story, and games that don't have good stories or aren't children's games will be forgotten with time!

Edit: I should also mention that using the words "I might as well read a book or watch a movie" when it comes to video games. I get fucking pissed. Just saying.

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BoG

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@Jay444111: Are Alan Wake and Deadl Premonition fun to play? Yes. You totally misunderstood me. TO use the OP's example, it wouldn't be fun to press B and serendipitously end up in Kate Beckinsale's car. Of course, interaction can be more than just shooting. It's exploring, seeing, and so on. I'm saying that it's better to write a book than try and adapt a good story into a medium where it won't feel totally natural. A story should be told with the medium that best allows it to be well understood by the audience, if possible. Interaction can enchance a story, but if that interaction feels unnatural, it's only a detriment.

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ArtisanBreads

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Edited By ArtisanBreads

@mandude said:

Violence and sex transcend all cultural and language barriers. Of course they will always be the best selling games.

I'd be more in line with saying Profit is Killing our Creativity.

Might be profit... might be how things are currently set up to make AAA games.

We are at an interesting point though. F2P and other models are allowing more freedom and some creative games are really being rewarded in these formats (with the obvious one being Minecraft).

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Clonedzero

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Edited By Clonedzero

sex and violence are the two constants in history.

humans are a sexual and violent species. its natural.

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Jay444111

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@BoG said:

@Jay444111: Are Alan Wake and Deadl Premonition fun to play? Yes. You totally misunderstood me. TO use the OP's example, it wouldn't be fun to press B and serendipitously end up in Kate Beckinsale's car. Of course, interaction can be more than just shooting. It's exploring, seeing, and so on. I'm saying that it's better to write a book than try and adapt a good story into a medium where it won't feel totally natural. A story should be told with the medium that best allows it to be well understood by the audience, if possible. Interaction can enchance a story, but if that interaction feels unnatural, it's only a detriment.

Okay... sorry about all that, I apologize. But I do agree, even though I LOVE the book Good Omens doesn't mean it should be a movie or a game because it just wouldn't be as good. Kinda like MGS turning into a movie. It just wouldn't work and it wouldn't be as good. So yes, I am fully agreeing with that and the rest of your point.

However there are some books or movies that would make awesome video games so there is that as well just so we can be clear about all this though. But they are a case by case basis. (I will get rid of one of my testicles if it meant getting a Dark Tower series a great video game treatment.)

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BoG

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Edited By BoG

@Jay444111: Totally. I'm all for adaptations, as long as they're well done.

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Edited By Tomorrowman

Something no one has hit on....is it possible to make a 'rom com' game? Can it even be done and be interesting? I'm not so sure. While comedy has been done in games before, even Monkey Island comes down to killing LeChuck. Can we brainstorm an idea of a video game not in the action genre (comedy, romantic, drama, political, etc) about a human story where the main goal isn't to kill the bad guy? What would the mechanics be like? Are there any good Indie games that already hit on this idea you'd like to share?

I'm no game designer, nor even very artistic, so if one of you guys do have those talents I'd think it'd be cool to hear your ideas.

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Clonedzero

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@Tomorrowman said:

Something no one has hit on....is it possible to make a 'rom com' game? Can it even be done and be interesting? I'm not so sure. While comedy has been done in games before, even Monkey Island comes down to killing LeChuck. Can we brainstorm an idea of a video game not in the action genre (comedy, romantic, drama, political, etc) about a human story where the main goal isn't to kill the bad guy? What would the mechanics be like? Are there any good Indie games that already hit on this idea you'd like to share?

I'm no game designer, nor even very artistic, so if one of you guys do have those talents I'd think it'd be cool to hear your ideas.

i think you could make a game a romantic comedy, like you'd have to design it as a game first. so theres consistent gameplay going on. if its action, a platformer, whatever. thats fine, then make the story, and theme very romantic comedy styled.

if you did it reverse, thats where i'd see it go real bad, cramming in weird gameplay mechanics into a romantic comedy to turn it into a game. that'd be terrible.

theres alot of potential for those types of games in the adventure game genre.

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David Cage, is that you?

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DragonNinja789

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@Tomorrowman:

There's a simple solution to this. Stop playing "violent" video-games. your choice.

There are plenty of valid statements and points that I can say to help this debate and the people above me but that would be adding fuel to the fire, and frankly I am far to tired and bitter to make a statement. Besides, I've already come to a conclusion regarding all this talk... I'm not going to sit here and say that your "stupid" because that would be incorrect, no-one is stupid, but you are however acting very stupidly.

Also, I feel as if that last statement...about videogames needing more sex in them, was extremely sarcastic?

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@Gamer_152 said:

@Vodun said:

@Gamer_152: I'm sorry but that's just a bunch of BS. Unless you look really hard at the indie productions, movies are exactly as generic and undistinguished at the higher grossing echelons as games. The only thing movies have going for them is sheer volume, more of them are made, hence more interesting ones will turn up.

Considering how young the gaming biz is, and how few are in control of the major publishing houses we're getting an amazing variety and just getting better.

Vodun, I'd like to start by saying that whether we agree or disagree I think you could be more polite about this, to Tommorowman at least. Anyway, as far as diversity in narrative themes go, no, I really don't think games are providing amazing variety. Some of the highest grossing films are works like Toy Story 3, Titanic, Harry Potter, and Alice in Wonderland, there just really aren't any equivalents for these times of films in AAA gaming. Even with something like a Transformers which is an "action film" there's still much more time devoted to comedy, romance, and general non-violent interaction between people that you're just not going to find in most games.

Grossing? I thought we were talking about what the industry was investing in? Are you seriously blaming the gaming industry for what its consumers buy? Also, all the movies you mentioned have a clear bad guy which needs to be beaten (even Toy Story) and violence is a major dramatic factor in all of them.

Take a game like Mirror's Edge. Fairly innovative game, many hard core fans, established studio, fair marketing, an FPS where you have a dedicated button for throwing down your gun and you can play the entire game without killing... sold like shit.

As for Transformers...there's more gripping romance and comedy in the Mass Effect games (yes that was an ironic statement).

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Giantstalker

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Anybody can readily experience funny, romantic, and other social situations within their civilian lives. Combat, however, is fundamentally foreign to the vast majority of people. They want to see it and keep doing so because, ultimately, this is something they'll never get to actually explore within their lives. It keeps its allure for this reason, even if we play action, shooter, and fighting games every year. I don't believe it's "killing creativity"; it's just popular, so you'll see a lot of it within the medium. Games are overwhelmingly competitive affairs, and so are conflicts, so they do seem to go together better than most other human situations.

I don't think this is the video game industry's fault, nor the consumers themselves; it's just the way affluent modern societies are organized and run. People just want what they don't have, or can't normally get. If there was a major continental war with violence that affected millions, you might see a trend to the opposite once the dust settled. Instead games are largely made, sold, and played in relatively peaceful and stable countries where violence is remote for most consumers.

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@Tomorrowman There's not one thing you said that supports what your title claims.

Can you really not tell the difference between two of the most recognizable real life villains? How can we take your opinion of a games story seriously if you can't even pay enough attention to tell the difference between Hitler and Castro.
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gamer_152

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@Vodun said:

@Gamer_152 said:

@Vodun said:

@Gamer_152: I'm sorry but that's just a bunch of BS. Unless you look really hard at the indie productions, movies are exactly as generic and undistinguished at the higher grossing echelons as games. The only thing movies have going for them is sheer volume, more of them are made, hence more interesting ones will turn up.

Considering how young the gaming biz is, and how few are in control of the major publishing houses we're getting an amazing variety and just getting better.

Vodun, I'd like to start by saying that whether we agree or disagree I think you could be more polite about this, to Tommorowman at least. Anyway, as far as diversity in narrative themes go, no, I really don't think games are providing amazing variety. Some of the highest grossing films are works like Toy Story 3, Titanic, Harry Potter, and Alice in Wonderland, there just really aren't any equivalents for these times of films in AAA gaming. Even with something like a Transformers which is an "action film" there's still much more time devoted to comedy, romance, and general non-violent interaction between people that you're just not going to find in most games.

Grossing? I thought we were talking about what the industry was investing in? Are you seriously blaming the gaming industry for what its consumers buy? Also, all the movies you mentioned have a clear bad guy which needs to be beaten (even Toy Story) and violence is a major dramatic factor in all of them.

Take a game like Mirror's Edge. Fairly innovative game, many hard core fans, established studio, fair marketing, an FPS where you have a dedicated button for throwing down your gun and you can play the entire game without killing... sold like shit.

As for Transformers...there's more gripping romance and comedy in the Mass Effect games (yes that was an ironic statement).

I think we're talking about both what is highly grossing and what the industries are investing in, but I mentioned the highest grossing films because you claimed that high-grossing movies and high-grossing games are equally as non-diverse in this situation and I just don't believe they are. I wouldn't say I blame the games industry for what consumers buy, but I would say that I believe "It makes people money" cannot be used as a defence against an argument that there's some things artistically wrong with what an industry is producing.

Yes, Toy Story 3, Titanic, and Alice in Wonderland may have bad guys, characters may even use violence to overcome them, but they're not action films, this is very different from what the games industry has where a huge volume of the games are almost purely focused around action and where the majority of interactions between characters are violent ones. What's more, with Mirror's Edge, even if the game sold badly that doesn't mean that non-violent games can't see considerable success or even that the reason it didn't sell is because it was non-violent.

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Actually violence is pretty cool bro. Good blogpost for views though

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Vodun

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@Gamer_152 said:

@Vodun said:

@Gamer_152 said:

@Vodun said:

@Gamer_152: I'm sorry but that's just a bunch of BS. Unless you look really hard at the indie productions, movies are exactly as generic and undistinguished at the higher grossing echelons as games. The only thing movies have going for them is sheer volume, more of them are made, hence more interesting ones will turn up.

Considering how young the gaming biz is, and how few are in control of the major publishing houses we're getting an amazing variety and just getting better.

Vodun, I'd like to start by saying that whether we agree or disagree I think you could be more polite about this, to Tommorowman at least. Anyway, as far as diversity in narrative themes go, no, I really don't think games are providing amazing variety. Some of the highest grossing films are works like Toy Story 3, Titanic, Harry Potter, and Alice in Wonderland, there just really aren't any equivalents for these times of films in AAA gaming. Even with something like a Transformers which is an "action film" there's still much more time devoted to comedy, romance, and general non-violent interaction between people that you're just not going to find in most games.

Grossing? I thought we were talking about what the industry was investing in? Are you seriously blaming the gaming industry for what its consumers buy? Also, all the movies you mentioned have a clear bad guy which needs to be beaten (even Toy Story) and violence is a major dramatic factor in all of them.

Take a game like Mirror's Edge. Fairly innovative game, many hard core fans, established studio, fair marketing, an FPS where you have a dedicated button for throwing down your gun and you can play the entire game without killing... sold like shit.

As for Transformers...there's more gripping romance and comedy in the Mass Effect games (yes that was an ironic statement).

I think we're talking about both what is highly grossing and what the industries are investing in, but I mentioned the highest grossing films because you claimed that high-grossing movies and high-grossing games are equally as non-diverse in this situation and I just don't believe they are. I wouldn't say I blame the games industry for what consumers buy, but I would say that I believe "It makes people money" cannot be used as a defence against an argument that there's some things artistically wrong with what an industry is producing.

Yes, Toy Story 3, Titanic, and Alice in Wonderland may have bad guys, characters may even use violence to overcome them, but they're not action films, this is very different from what the games industry has where a huge volume of the games are almost purely focused around action and where the majority of interactions between characters are violent ones. What's more, with Mirror's Edge, even if the game sold badly that doesn't mean that non-violent games can't see considerable success or even that the reason it didn't sell is because it was non-violent.

Yeah and if you go historical the biggest games for their time weren't necessarily action games either. You'll find things like adventure games (Myst), 4X (Civilization), puzzlers (Lemmings), platformers (Mario), management sims (X Tycoon), life sims (The Sims), dance / party (DDR)...

There is no lack of attempts at non-violent games, it's simply that the market has made it clear the majority wants the action shooters. Unless you expect the developers to educate the "stupid masses" that what they like is wrong at the cost of sales, I doubt we'll see a change in this any time soon.

Also, I know this isn't accepted due to snobbery but you can't ignore the fact that the fastest growing part of gaming are mobile games. And it's not the shooters and murder sims that sell there (and there are plenty of the available). Different market, different sales.

Violence isn't killing creativity, market adaption is killing creativity.

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I fail to see the connection between your title and your actual writing. You make plentiful reference to our abundance of creative, non-violent games, so where's all this dead creativity? Sure, they don't sell as well as the AAA shooters, but I don't think they're endangered. Games like LittleBigPlanet rake in tons of money, and that's a title that's practically synonymous with creativity.

And certainly a game that's violent can be creative, too--they're not mutually exclusive. Bayonetta is the first game that comes to mind. Shadow of the Colossus is violent, but manages to be even more poignant than Heavy Rain. Even Gears of War--the ultimate macho killing simulation--can portray some very touching moments of humanity.

So if someone watches a cable news report about sex and violence in gaming, insist that they actually play these ostensible offenders. More often than not, there's a lot more than just violence under the surface. Stand up for the games you know are more than that.

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@Vodun: I agree that violence isn't killing creativity, but I think we're at risk of confusing gameplay genres with narrative content. I feel with a lot of older games especially, that because there's very little narrative content it's almost impossible to classify them by some kind of narrative genre, but even with a lot of older games they seem to revolve around action and peril. Games like The Sims and the Tycoon games are great, but I think it would be inaccurate to say they ever represented large chunks of the world of video games. Facebook and mobile markets do see a fair number of games that move outside of action thematics, and that's great, but I don't think they represent what we've come to talk about as video games, and I don't think they're in the part of the industry that's really able to develop stories.

When I look at my collection of Xbox 360 games though, and I look down the line, they're almost all about action in modern military settings, action in sci-fi settings, action in fantasy settings, action in wild west settings. I mean look at E3, even most of the games that aren't the biggest of blockbusters are still very concerned with action. Again, movies have had and do have action, drama, comedy, romance, etc. as major established genres and I just don't think we see that range from the stories and narratives video games are presenting.