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trylks

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trylks

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@gamefreak9 said:

Somebody's comment isn't more valuable than others because of what's between their legs. Propositions are correctly evaluated with logic and coherence not genitalia.

Dude, we're not debating some quantifiable scientific theory, we're having a subjective discussion about how women are represented in games. Since only a woman can fully understand and articulate how that might matter to them, any conversation without that perspective is inherently less valuable.

If fact the typical argument is: "let markets be". And a big part of the market, and even bigger of the potential market (~50%) is underrepresented here. I however challenged the common assumption of any inherent wisdom in the markets, markets are in fact quite stupid, which doesn't imply that they are wrong.

It's not really about what people like (e.g. Marcus Fenix), it's about the message.

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trylks

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@jadegl said:

I've been trying to come up with a well articulated post,

You did. But I think you miss one important point. I haven't read all the comments in the thread, but let me summarize what I've seen in the thread (which is the usual old story):

The economic argument: Games are produced to make money, they evolve to be what consumers want. E.g. if there are several hundreds of FPS franchises it's because that's what people want, if there is only one The Sims franchise then maybe there's not so much (economic) interest on that.

You bring the the counter argument of being a little represented consumer (probably minority) in the market. Markets screw minorities. I like the over the shoulder perspective more than the first person perspective, yet I play FPS games because they are still great, despite of that. A very moderate opinion and argument, IMHO. The problem is: due to market dynamics, if few people like some kind of games, few games like that will be made.

The bad market analysis counter argument: what is misrepresented are not minorities, but many people that were never given a chance to be hear. This is a stronger argument. Here producers have made a crappy market analysis and are losing a lot of money because of that. How efficient are markets? Is the available information perfect? Judging the success of Nintendo (DS and Wii), I would say not at all, there was a blue ocean out there and there may be even bigger ones. How many females are just being pushed away from games just because the box art is not appealing to them? We will never know, but when something is inclusive it seems to be unexpectedly successful I'm still puzzled by the success of Minecraft. Someone mentioned indie games, that are more gender neutral and also more sexist, they simply cover a wider spectrum, that's their thing, experiment. This should be slowly fixed by inefficient markets, unless...

This is the point I want to make:

Markets may be leading us to bad places. This may be heresy to libertarians, but IMHO people are shaped and societies evolve, either in controlled ways (normally known as education) or in uncontrolled ways (which I would consider perversion). Games are communicating a lot, and they are subcommunicating even more (this is something I have been wanting to elaborate for a few years and it will stay that way for a few more), to summarize, one simple example: "nothing is impossible". Games never challenge you to do something plainly impossible (what a dick move would that be), try to do a PhD on computer science solving an undecidable problem and you will get a clear perspective of impossible (not "very difficult", totally impossible). There are impossible things in this world. Games and fiction in general are telling everybody many things, at a not fully conscious level, the world is virtual, but the achievement feels kind of real and it's subconsciously associated with the context. So, digressing back, games subcommunicate and people buy this message to a greater or lesser extent, in a conscious or unconscious way. The point is: should we let the markets decide how this message is without discussion or thinking at all about it? HELL NO! There is no freedom if the choices are not responsible and thoroughly thought, being a slave of your lowest impulses [without being questioned by anyone (they better not dare to!)] is not being free whatsoever. People don't like other guys minding their businesses, but they should definitively mind their own businesses because it needs to be done. So there's a lot to discuss here, and I think that's the point that was missing. I elaborate more:

Brain is a muscle. Watch porn 16 hours a day every day and your brain will be melted. Study maths that schedule and your social skills will get sooner or later rusty, even your verbal communication will be "strange" after a while. Read novels and your mind may be gone. This applies to skills and similarly to memes and culture. How much nudity, gore, unrealistic expectations about human bodies and so many other things are good? I've no idea. The human mind is very complex, probably much more than the body, and it seems to be unclear how much sugar is good, such a basic thing like sugar, which anyway varies from one person to another. The point is: apparently nobody knows and I see no reasons why we should think that the markets are going to do the right thing, markets tend to appeal to something lower than mediocrity, for a very simple reason, it's about appealing the greatest number of people, the average people [has someone read up to here? you are better than average ;-) ], but if you are to make any error about going over or below average, usually below average errors are cheaper and more profitable. Putting references to Shakespeare in a game is plain waste, boobs are a safe value.

If nobody knows, let it be. But that is probably not going to take us to lower and lower mediocrity. Hopefully we all can tell the difference between fiction and reality, probably only very few can explicitly define it. @cikamementioned games as escapism. However, games have traditionally been used to learn, learning should be fun and games should be educative (happily I did already elaborate on that, yay!). In short, if what we experience in a game (with fun, that's mandatory, otherwise it's not a game) was useful for real life then that would be much better than if what we experience is in fact harmful.

But don't get me wrong:

Markets may be leading us to good places. Religion seems to help to contribute to psyche stability, but through trauma (amputation of critical thinking) more than by actual improvement, growth or development. Nudity and nudism may actually be good to accept the physical existence of our bodies and their diversity (not everybody is exactly equal, and that's fine), I see a lot of references in the media to wear or not wear a veil or other religious symbols, but not so much about nudity. Virtual violence may be a good stress reliever and help to reduce real violence. And maybe if nerdy skinny people or fat people want to do something about it to be more similar to some fictional characters that could be good for them, not for aesthetic reasons (which should not be overlooked) but mainly for health reasons, also discipline and accomplishment are good things. Maybe. Perhaps. I don't know, and millions of opinions are not going to make us know anything. We need facts!

So the real point is: is up for us to decide where we want to go, were games should take us, as individuals and society. That's our freedom, our choice and our responsibility, and that must be thoroughly thought, if you are too young to do that or to be willing to do that then your parents will have to choose for you. And remember, that thought process must be guided by facts and evidence, not unfalsifiable statements, biased opinions or self-contradicting alleged revelations of a god. The invisible hand of the markets is just like the invisible hand of evolution, it wiped out most of the life in this planet in six previous occasions, it's not to be trusted just because we didn't get to that fate yet.

BTW: I'm all in favor of character customization specially when it's a rich feature that works fine, some examples are Eve Online, SaintsRow III, and The Sims. But character design isn't really the point.

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trylks

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#3  Edited By trylks
@treetrunk said:

What I want is, more women enemies! Example, in Batman it was awesome you could also play as Catwoman, but all the enemies in that game are men! Same with Tomb Raider, and many other games, all the enemies are men! That is not realistic imo.

In fact it is realistic. You only have to check the statistics for violent crimes and such, comparing men to women.

PS: are men getting the short end of the stick here? If something is sexist as not being equal to men and women, but it does match the statistics and is realistic in that sense, does that mean that reality is sexist?

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#4  Edited By trylks

I wasn't looking forward into anything before reading this thread.

After reading it, I'm not looking forward into anything yet.

I guess the new generation of consoles needs one year more to get to the top quality, and PC releases are quite strongly correlated.

I still have to catch up with the games from the previous generation, though, like Mass Effect (the whole trilogy), and maybe then StarCraft II, but that will be 2016 or later.

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There seems to be a lot of LOL in this story.

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trylks

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#6  Edited By trylks

http://www.last.fm/user/trylks

@corwag it's very useful when someone asks what kind of music do you listen. I can provide the url, but don't ask me to describe it.

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trylks

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#7  Edited By trylks

Looks like most artists at cghub went to http://www.artstation.com/ and http://drawcrowd.com/

The style there (in general) is very similar to cghub while different from other sites like deviantart.

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trylks

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The KickStarter campaign failed, what now?

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trylks

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#9  Edited By trylks

You are right and I was wrong. Microsoft has bought some things from Dell and lent money to Dell investors.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/147646-dell-sold-to-microsoft-silver-lake-for-24-billion-what-it-means-for-the-pc

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/05/dell-s-unlikely-suitor-behind-microsoft-s-2-billion-buy-in.html

But it didn't buy Dell, yet...

http://www.techradar.com/news/computing/microsoft-to-buy-dell-1127017

Now everything makes more sense, thank you.

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trylks

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#10  Edited By trylks

At this point in my life I'm not a gamer, I'm not overweight and I'm very very weak.

Thanks for sharing, hopefully I'll have time for gaming and exercise soon.

PhD, bad decision. Good thing is: I don't need to buy Dark Souls to try to "achieve the impossible"...