Vinny's forum posts

#1 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@sylect said:

@patrickklepek @jeff @vinny @alex @brad what do you suggest then for a person such as myself who is against harassment and death threats (obviously) but feel that many of the ideas behind GG are correct? Please don't respond with not drinking the koolaid, I think there are legitimate problems and that GG has the best chance in years of addressing them. If not GG, how? and when?

I think this is a great question. It might be THE question. Choosing not to consume media you think is corrupt is usually immediate instinct. This industry has changed so much, I have a lot of questions about what it is now and our definitions. Who are the journalists/critics? Who is the audience? Who are the devs? Where are the lines? Are we still talking about GameSpot/IGN and Activision/EA? Are we talking Indie Dev versus YouTube personality? Can you be a dev/critic/fan at the same time? There might be a need or want for an impartial consumer advocacy group. I do believe under GG more harm is coming to this hobby/industry than anything it could possibly answer.

I also think the groups both sides are looking to come to the table don't exist. One side wants the left-wing-journalistic-cabal to sit down. Another side wants the frothing-but-reasonable-death-threat-writer to answer for his crimes. It's like trying to get a Unicorn to debate a Dragon.

#2 Edited by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@harj said:

Watching/reading this entire debacle form across the pond, all I can really say is this seems a problem that should be tackled a different way. What should clearly be stated, is that we are dealing such behaviour that can only be described as psychopathic. I know Patrick has made many arguments against this kind of behaviour on the internet, but honestly I feel he is wasting his time. These aren't people that are to reasoned with, to debate issues and to provide a platform to air their issues. These are people who threaten to rape a woman for making a video game. These are people that need help. Or medication. Its the whole 'watch the world burn' mentality that just so happens to come from people that are into to video games too. Ethics in video game journalism? I'm here for Quick Looks of Jeff in front on the Kinect shaking his head. I'm here to watch Brad try and beat that boss for the 50th time. I'm here to watch Vinny run over that car in his truck. I'm here to watch Patrick crap himself playing P.T. It's entertainment I'm after. There are too many real world issues that I concern myself with away from Video Games. I want escapism. My only wish is that those in the Video Game industry who have been personally affected by this whole mess, understand that those who wish them harm are only doing so due to serious issues they have with themselves. I don't see it more nuanced than that.

We haven't been able to do any of the things we normally do as this thing has engulfed the industry. It's hard to enjoy anything in this atmosphere. We don't operate in a bubble, and it while we'd love to just have fun... it's just too hard to ignore. We've had fewer cars run over by trucks because of it.

#3 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -
#4 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@vinny: Do you therefore feel that if your friends can't dance that you have reasonable cause to leave them behind?

Listen. If my friends don't dance. I mean if they really don't dance... well, then they ain't no friends of mine.

#5 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@hassun said:

@alex: @brad: @vinny: @patrickklepek: @rorie:

I feel like you guys are pressuring me to ask you something and I don't know what to ask. This is making me very uncomfortable.

I've been following this from the start and I've always said the anti "social justice warrior" part poisoned the well right from the start. Asking questions about how the business works and how it interacts with the media covering/critiquing this business is a good thing. In a world where there are voices saying the wall between editorial and marketing should be removed I think those are legitimate questions. It requires constant vigilance and scrutiny.

But I've never thought gamergate was the vessel to do this. It was infused by something much nastier right from the start.

I agree that questions are great. Ask me anything! Ask me about ethics.

#6 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@tonch said:

I'm not sure there's a whole lot I can say at this point, other than reiterate the message that I'm disappointed GB fell in line with all the other sites and writers being bullied into "taking a hardline official company stance" on this thing, and doing so without at least looking into why some people feel the way they do.

The general staff message at the top of this piece is spot-on. Hate and threats and the like are not okay, addressed to ANYone.

...Which is why it's that much harder to stomach that everyone unequivocally calls people involved in gamergate "harassers", or, at best, "misguided and confused". Especially after seeing the Gawker network employees spewing hateful bile at their view of gamers lately, I can't stand by the idea that gamers are confused children trying to fight some holy war.

Some gamers are sick of nobody listening to them, and frankly, this is more acknowledgement than they tend to get anyway. We're back to 90s-era "gamers are terrible people!" media mentality, and it's unfortunately something most people are used to.

I've spent a lot of time reading everything I could. Listening to everything I could find to try and find the common ground. But after all of that. Don't think everyone is ignoring that there is harassment on both sides. The facts, though, the inescapable truth is that this has been founded on hate and misinformation. It doesn't matter how many casualties pile up. If you have to stand on a pile of bodies to scream a message about ethics is it worth it?

It's fight between people that love games and people that love games. Why do they hate each other? Honestly, why do you think they media hates you? If it's from articles written about "gamers" being done does that really pierce your heart?

I used to love adventure games. They died because everyone wanted to play first person shooters. The culture of games then became about e-sports and dudes making money online. Everyone wanted to be an online badass. I didn't. The industry changed, but I was also able to be exposed to a lot of new things (some of which don't float by boat) during the process.

#7 Edited by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@anwar said:

I've read Jeff's statement and once again this whole thing has been portrayed as a one way street. Only people who were against gamergate or haven't even done anything(afaik some people were harassed who didn't talk about this thing) were targets of harassment, no mention of Boogie or TotalBiscuit, but whatever. What about comments years ago from GB's staff about European journalists? Which are clearly on the take and do this and that? I remember that distinctly happening multiple times. You can call people which you don't know personally or professionally all kind of shit and when it gets back at you(years later and from other people obviously) this is somehow farcical and just a smokescreen for people to instigate harassment. Nice narrative you've got there.

Look, I don't come to video game websites for journalistic integrity, I don't fight that fight. I thought something good might've come out of GG and the majority of events were negative(death threats for everybody). And I for one, don't think that game journalism WORLDWIDE is corrupt, so take it or leave it.

My immedaite response to your argument is that I know myself very personally and professionally. So I can claim what is being said to be true or not. We have always taken grief and given it. Most you can dismiss. Some you can't.

#8 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

It's true. I'm hanging out.

#9 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@patrickklepek said:

@dudleyville said:

@stryker1121: There was a Huffington Post Live discussion video today with people who are either neutral or for GamerGate that you should watch, as well as the HPL video from yesterday with Wu and the owner of 8chan. The people in the industry who support GamerGate have largely wanted to remain anonymous in articles for understandable reasons. I would recommend reading Erik Kain with Forbes or articles by The Escapist for fair takes. There is no leadership in GamerGate, just voices. If you want people to come forward more, there has to be open and fair dialogue.

A discussion in which they were unable to articulate what actual corruption was occurring in the games industry, or cited long debunked theories that were raised at the beginning of this (i.e. a review of Depression Quest generated from sleeping with a member of the press). They also tried to construct the argument that objective reviews are the way forward, a perspective they couldn't articulate beyond "don't criticize games in a way I don't like them being criticized." I wouldn't be quick to point to anything on The Escapist, either, considering they were forced to remove interviews, as one of the developers profiled was known to have previously harassed Escapist writers. Sounds like a credible source, no?

That is insidious Patrick and you know it. Anti-GGers have harassed gamers including Ms. Alexander, Ms. Quinn and even Ms. Wu. So by your logic, none of those sources are credible.

A number of their complaints have been substantiated as well. Press has personally financially supported Developers. Developers and Press have had relationships far closer than journalistic integrity should dictate. Hell, GamesJurnosPros is a facsimile of the JournoList. There is a real narrative being built that gaming websites are corrupt, and GG is asking for an end to that. I think they have blown the whole thing out of proportion, but to have the audacity to claim GamerGate: couldn't articulate beyond "don't criticize games in a way I don't like them being criticized."" is just false and you know it.

I have seen this a fair amount and I think some of the language causes really large issues. What is Press? Any youtube or twitch personality streaming a game? A publication? Someone with a little card in his/her hat?

Who are developers? Anyone with a copy of Unity?

Are we just talking about IGN and GameSpot and Activision and EA?

Who are the people that need to sit at this table and have a discussion? Where is the debate happening?

The narrative that gaming sites are corrupt has been going on for decades. I have seen better information and more supporting evidence previously than this. I actually think traditional game websites are the best and most accountable they have ever been. The problem, I believe stems from a democratization of coverage, widening audience for games, and accessibility to development. Everybody is doing everything now. Everybody loves/hates everything. Everybody is fighting.

#10 Posted by Vinny (2123 posts) -

@extomar said:

That is "spooky" when BIOS locks up. The usually means some piece of hardware is going wacky while BIOS is trying to probe/query it. Has it always locked up or was there a point in the past where it worked?

always locked up. PC seems to be running ok (for now). At some point I'll have to take a closer look at it.