Wrighteous86's forum posts

#1 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@theblue said:

@wrighteous86: Oh I'm not complaining that people think that. I said in my very first post here that I understand why that is the case and why those words are attached to this franchise. I just think that when people say that the story is convoluted, they tend to mean that they don't understand the story because they didn't bother with any of the side games, not that the story isn't told in a straightforward A to B manner. So, you're right, I guess semantics was the argument.

I didn't really argue about it being pretentious though. That was someone else. I completely understand why people see these games as pretentious. I just personally didn't find the story to be as off-putting. I came to the series later after 2 came out so I sort of knew that it wasn't all "Happy Disney fun time with Final Fantasy characters" so it didn't bother me as much.

And I was merely commenting that literally everyone who complains about this game uses the phrase "up its own ass". I mean, just look at this thread.

Haha fair point. Still, I see what you like about the series. I was once a fan too. I just can't be bothered to keep up anymore. I'm happy these games are being made, and I'm curious and looking forward to seeing how KH3 turns out too.

#2 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

Let me name three things I don't like about Kingdom Hearts: Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Sora.

:(

#3 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@theblue said:

@wrighteous86: You seem to be missing, or ignoring, the point I'm trying to make. But yeah, okay. By the exact wording of the second definition of the word "convoluted", the story of Kingdom Hearts is convoluted. Can we stop arguing over semantics now?

That was what the entire argument was about. You complained that people called the games convoluted and pretentious. I'm sorry you took that to mean something else, but most of the people making complaints in this thread backed up these statements in exactly the ways my definitions describe. Just because it makes sense if you pay close attention and are willing to jump through the series' hoops doesn't invalidate the complaint.

The stories aren't self-contained, they jump around between multiple points in time, with multiple characters and multiple versions of characters, and they were previously told on multiple systems, and each piece of the puzzle was required to understand the rest. That's inefficient storytelling and people complained when Halo did something similar. If people were saying the plot was nonsensical, arguably you'd have a point. But then again, maybe so would they.

It's pretentious because most people like the first game for its simple storytelling and because they wanted to see multiple Disney and Square worlds intersect and interact. The sequels went on to become more complicated and focus on original characters, which people found pretentious.

It's fine to disagree, but fans of the franchise tend to get really defensive over what are pretty reasonable complaints. I started out as a fan too. The reasons above made me lose interest. And mine is a pretty common story.

#4 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@believer258: "The first two hours of KH2" is not evidence enough. What's pretentious about it?

I'd guess by trying to be something more than Square meets Disney funtimes, which is something you probably don't agree with. But pretension is in the eye of the beholder.

#5 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@theblue said:

@wrighteous86: Well, thanks Mr. Dictionary man haha. I still stand by my original statement. Nowhere did I say that the story was difficult to understand or far too complex to make sense. All I'm saying is that people that think the story is "convoluted" or "baroque" or "complicated" or "involved" or "tangled" are people that only played 1 and 2. The rest of the story that provides context and explanations is in the side games. Yeah, the story is ridiculous at times as other people have described here, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand.

The relevant definitions of those words that apply to what you just said are as follows:

convoluted: a complicated way of describing a simple device (You said the story is simple. But you admit that it is not simply told.)

complicated: having many parts or steps; consisting of parts intricately combined (The story is spread out over multiple games on multiple platforms, each of which is required to truly understand the story.)

involved: difficult to deal with because of complexity or disorder (The games are told out of order, deal with multiple versions of multiple characters.)

tangled: existing in or giving the appearance of a state of utter disorder (Again, multiple games on multiple platforms, told out of order. [I realize the HD re-releases ameliorate this a bit.] Thus, it is an involved process to understand the whole story.)

For the record, Halo 4 was convoluted too, putting key details to its main story in books and terminals.

#6 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@believer258: "up its own ass" is just a lazy descriptor that doesn't say anything other than you personally don't like that it takes itself seriously.

This is true. It's a lazy complaint, but not necessarily invalid.

@theblue said:

Also, nowhere except a Kingdom Hearts conversation will you hear more uses of the phrase, "up-it's-own-ass".

Adjective

up one's own ass

  1. (idiomatic, vulgar) having an excessively high opinion of oneself.

Many people that make this complaint are specifically referring to how, especially after the first game (which many of the franchise's critics enjoyed), the series has increasingly focused on its own narrative and invented characters to the detriment of the Disney and Square-Enix crossover characters, worlds, and styles that were the main pitch of the games in the first place.

Thus, the game is "up its own ass" because it has mistakenly assumed the draw for many people was Sora and Xehanort and Organization XIII when most people just wanted to see Cloud and Mickey in a new context interacting with Vivi and Simba. The series' opinion of itself has gotten so high, that it has mostly abandoned the interesting conceit that it was founded upon to become its own beast.

Whether you agree that this was a mistake or not is one thing, but you cannot deny that it has happened. When people complain Kingdom Hearts is "up its own ass" they complain that the focus has moved away from Disney and the other Square/Enix properties.

#7 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@gunslingerpanda said:

And "convoluted" from people who don't know what it means.

@theblue said:

@wrighteous86: No, that's not what convoluted means. If it was, it would be difficult to understand. My argument is that once you actually dig deep and play all of them, it's a lot simpler than you think.

@theblue said:

@thatpinguino: I've found that the main series games do not do a very good job of telling the whole story. There is so much, SO MUCH, that is explained and elaborated upon in the side games. For example, the most recent game, the 3DS one, sets up the story for the third game which involves bringing back the characters from the PSP game...

...The problem though, is that you have to become invested and really dig into all of the side games to really end up with a general understanding of the story that they're trying to tell...

con·vo·lut·edˈkänvəˌlo͞otid/adjective

  1. (especially of an argument, story, or sentence) extremely complex and difficult to follow.
  2. complicated; intricately involved: a convoluted way of describing a simple device.

Synonyms:

1.) baroque

  1. having many details or too many details

2.) complicated

  1. hard to understand, explain, or deal with : having many parts or steps
  2. consisting of parts intricately combined <a complicated recipe>

3.) involved

  1. marked by extreme and often needless or excessive complexity
  2. difficult to deal with because of complexity or disorder

4.) tangled

  1. existing in or giving the appearance of a state of utter disorder
  2. very involved : exceedingly complex
#8 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@theblue said:

@thatpinguino: I've found that the main series games do not do a very good job of telling the whole story. There is so much, SO MUCH, that is explained and elaborated upon in the side games. For example, the most recent game, the 3DS one, sets up the story for the third game which involves bringing back the characters from the PSP game, so I wonder if people who only play 1, 2, and 3 will even know who these characters are if they do bring them back.

I understand people's frustration with the series which is unfortunate because the story isn't as convoluted and up its own ass as people think. (Well, it kind of is a bit) The problem though, is that you have to become invested and really dig into all of the side games to really end up with a general understanding of the story that they're trying to tell. That being said, I really don't like how these games are laid out. I'm with you on that. It's like you spend half the game playing Disney movies one after another, then the other half is spent on the crazy story with little connection between the two (moreso in 2).

Oh, and Tetsuya Nomura sucks.

That's practically the definition of convoluted.

And pretty much every Square game is up-its-own-ass.

I say this as someone that loved the first game, hated Chain of Memories, and liked the 2nd game before giving up. Fuck it.

At this point I want Disney to do a deal like this with someone, anyone else. They are way too focused on their own KH characters to do proper service to the Final Fantasy and Disney characters. Should've been more akin, plot-wise, to something like Dissidia where it's almost all about these popular characters interacting than trying to craft its own narrative and characters.

I'd say Nintendo should do it, but Nintendo and Disney are too similar to work as a crossover "clash" and Nintendo doesn't really do the epic story kind of thing. Maybe if they had the Xenoblade guys do it, but I still think the result would be too saccharine.

Just get Atlus to do a Disney crossover. I want to see Mater from Cars use a Persona 3 Evoker.

#9 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@dizzyhippos said:

@wrighteous86 said:

@aegon said:

@corruptedevil said:

No one in the Arena games goes to the Velvet room at all, the only mention of it is the character select screen. But those are canon and this is pure fanfare.

@believer258 said:

Didn't they say this was non-canon? I got the sense that they were given license to kinda just do whatever because of that. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

@dizzyhippos said:

@steadyingmeat said:

Yeah, definitely gonna skip this one. A silly, non-canon story probably would have been enough to make me not wanna play it, but I just cannot get into these first person grid-based dungeon crawling games at all for some reason.

According to wikipedia the atlus USA people claimed that this game is indeed cannon

You're right. I found this article that confirms it. Don't know if anything else has popped up that contradicts it, but here's a quote from the article:

The biggest takeaway is that Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth is canon, a representative from Atlus USA explained. However, the representative could not explain why the game is canon, since that would supposedly be a story spoiler.

Spoiler? There's a big friggin CLOCK TOWER in the game. There's gears all over the art work. My guess from the very beginning was that it was time travel.

Time travel can make anything canon, as exemplified by Futurama and Rick & Morty.

I'm sure it's canon in that it wraps up neatly and doesn't need to effect the rest of the series or ever be mentioned again. In that sense, it's either canon or not depending on if you want it to be.

Like "Whoa, both of our groups got pulled out of the timeline of our games simultaneously into this pocket dimension where we learned, laughed, and loved together and beat the big boss, but now that we're going back to our own adventures the process of travelling back will give us very specific amnesia as to what's happened in this pocket universe adventure! We may forget each other, but we'll still be bonded in our heaaaartssssss............................."

I bet that's what Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright does too, since that also takes place at specific points in each series' chronology. Hyrule Warriors may do this too, unless they decide to just go balls out and say "fuck it". (They've said Hyrule Warriors is non-canon, but it could just as easily fit this "inconsequential mode" where you can consider it canon or not just as easily.)

You may be right but there is already precedent for these 2 games taking place in the same world. In the re release of P3 on the PSP a younger Yukiko works at the inn that the characters stay at on a vacation event. And minor characters from P3 also appear in P4 proper. Not to mention all the cross over stories from Arena which I am pretty sure are considered cannon at least in the P4G version since Yosuke references how "things got crazy last time you visited in the spring" in the new ending that was added to P4G.

This series is getting comic book complicated with its cannon so it wouldn't surprise me that much if Q continued that. It makes me somewhat hopeful that the p3 and p4 characters will appear in some role in 5. Which they could somewhat easily pull off since all of the not original game P4 stuff has set somewhat of a personality for the main character (even if they do spell his name wrong).

I'm not saying P3 and P4 are different worlds. I'm saying Q probably takes place in a pocket dimension outside of time and space, which is why people from the same world, but two different time periods (since P4 takes place a few years later) could interact simultaneously. So they both get sucked in at different points in time, but appear together, and when they go back to their own times, they "forget".

Both games already involve alternate dimensions. I'm just saying that this game takes place in one of those outside of our version of time.

#10 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3745 posts) -

@aegon said:

@corruptedevil said:

No one in the Arena games goes to the Velvet room at all, the only mention of it is the character select screen. But those are canon and this is pure fanfare.

@believer258 said:

Didn't they say this was non-canon? I got the sense that they were given license to kinda just do whatever because of that. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

@dizzyhippos said:

@steadyingmeat said:

Yeah, definitely gonna skip this one. A silly, non-canon story probably would have been enough to make me not wanna play it, but I just cannot get into these first person grid-based dungeon crawling games at all for some reason.

According to wikipedia the atlus USA people claimed that this game is indeed cannon

You're right. I found this article that confirms it. Don't know if anything else has popped up that contradicts it, but here's a quote from the article:

The biggest takeaway is that Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth is canon, a representative from Atlus USA explained. However, the representative could not explain why the game is canon, since that would supposedly be a story spoiler.

Spoiler? There's a big friggin CLOCK TOWER in the game. There's gears all over the art work. My guess from the very beginning was that it was time travel.

Time travel can make anything canon, as exemplified by Futurama and Rick & Morty.

I'm sure it's canon in that it wraps up neatly and doesn't need to effect the rest of the series or ever be mentioned again. In that sense, it's either canon or not depending on if you want it to be.

Like "Whoa, both of our groups got pulled out of the timeline of our games simultaneously into this pocket dimension where we learned, laughed, and loved together and beat the big boss, but now that we're going back to our own adventures the process of travelling back will give us very specific amnesia as to what's happened in this pocket universe adventure! We may forget each other, but we'll still be bonded in our heaaaartssssss............................."

I bet that's what Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright does too, since that also takes place at specific points in each series' chronology. Hyrule Warriors may do this too, unless they decide to just go balls out and say "fuck it". (They've said Hyrule Warriors is non-canon, but it could just as easily fit this "inconsequential mode" where you can consider it canon or not just as easily.)