Anyone aware of Jeff's continuing dismissal of Red Dead in 2010?

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#1 Posted by Rayfield (2097 posts) -

Disclaimer: This topic is not meant to start any shit. I don't hate Jeff, super-love Red Dead or am complaining about the GOTY bombcasts. Please don't take it as such. It's simply an observation that I feel warrants discussion because I honestly would like to know. If discussion on this topic had happened before, please forgive me I couldn't find any related threads.  
 
 
So throughout 2010 on the Bombcast, even before launch, I got the very strong feeling Jeff didn't care for Red Dead Redemption. Fair enough. Westerns aren't his cup of tea I suppose. 
 
But as the year dragged on and even up to Day One of the GOTY podcast, it seemed most times RDR was mentioned at length - Jeff continually not only dismissed the game but seemed to gradually increase his disparaging comments about it. I know he didn't like the horse riding, but for someone who went batshit for GTAIV, I find it odd that he went completely 180 degrees with this one and keeps making remarks like: 
 
"People at E3 were coming out saying  (negative comment about RDR)" 
 
"From what I've seen (negative comment about RDR)" 
 
"I've heard (negative comment about RDR)" 
 
 "So the game is basically  (negative comment about RDR)" 
 
 "I haven't played much of it but it sounds like  (negative comment about RDR)"  
  

Normally, I couldn't care less. Like what you want to like. Whatever. Video games are awesome. But it really seemed as if he started to go out of his way to point out issues/problems/dislikes about the game and most of the time it was as a result of something he read/heard about it, as opposed to playing it.  And don't get me wrong. RDR wasn't my favourite game of 2010. It was really good, but not my number one. 
 
 
I'm honestly confused. This is a legitimate query: Has anyone else noticed this or should I just go eff myself?
   
#2 Posted by ZombieHunterOG (3530 posts) -

i havent been listening to the podcasts recently which one is this happening on specifically ?

#3 Posted by Rayfield (2097 posts) -
@ZombieHunter: 
 
More than one. Like throughout 2010.
#4 Edited by SJSchmidt93 (4895 posts) -

It's pretty hard not to notice, really. 

#5 Posted by BaneFireLord (2935 posts) -

It's been pissing me off in the GOTY casts where someone says something good about Red Dead and Jeff immediately counters it with something that is invalid.

#6 Posted by natetodamax (19205 posts) -

Yeah, he really seems to hate the game.

#7 Posted by SeanFoster (868 posts) -

I don't mind that Jeff dislikes some games I enjoyed a lot, he's absolutely entitled to but I wish I had a better idea as to what he disliked about them. 
 
I also noticed he was very dismissive and pessimistic of Brad's championing of Minerva's Den, bashing Bioshock 2 relentlessly when...Jeff himself gave that very game a 4 out of 5 on this site! 

#8 Posted by Heartbreak (288 posts) -

Well Red Dead Redemption is a boring game.

#9 Posted by MysteriousBob (6272 posts) -

Relying on "I heard" instead of stating your own judgements is unprofessional. Dude needs to be straight with his opinion, regardless what the reaction would be. Don't just skate around not liking a popular game with citing other people.

#10 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -

I'm not sure which one he hates worse. Red Dead or Limbo. But he really doesn't like Red Dead Redemption. I thought it was heads and shoulders above what GTA IV brought to the table.
 
It will be hard for it to win GotY on Giant Bomb with that much attitude. I can't wait for that fight... discussion.

#11 Posted by Catarrhal (831 posts) -

Brad Shoemaker is very likely correct in his presumption that Jeff never successfully figured out how to ride the damn horse.

#12 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -

I'm happy about it.  I beat RDR didn't think it was anything special at all. 
Playing liar's dice was a million times more fun than doing just about anything else in that game.
A great liar's dice simulator does not make game of the year. I was still the same very tired Rockstar style of open-world.
Ride 10 minutes to a point, get a cutscene, ride 10 more minutes somewhere else, then a shoot a dozen guys.

#13 Posted by Hamz (6846 posts) -

Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy?

#14 Posted by Dany (7887 posts) -

Jeff still has it in games he still wants tp play stack at home (formspring) 
 
He just never got into it, he played it for awhile and the controls were not working and maybe the story so he naturally stopped. He was told the ending before the deliberations I think based on his twitter, I bet he is more then willing to give it to RDR if that is what het room feels.

#15 Posted by Rolyatkcinmai (2687 posts) -
@Hamz said:
" Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy? "
Lack of gushing is fine, but even I noticed the outright hatred he seems to have for it. 
 
Disliking a game is one thing, but when a game is clearly one of the absolute best of the year, and a strong GOTY contender at every site, it is not a bad game.
#16 Posted by zombie2011 (4973 posts) -

He doesn't like the game get over it. 
 
No one complained when Brad did it for Fable 3.

#17 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -
@Rolyatkcinmai said:
" @Hamz said:
" Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy? "
Lack of gushing is fine, but even I noticed the outright hatred he seems to have for it.  Disliking a game is one thing, but when a game is clearly one of the absolute best of the year, and a strong GOTY contender at every site, it is not a bad game. "
Well there are crazier things out there, like people not liking mass effect 2 for example.
#18 Posted by Thoughtbird (14 posts) -

Oh fuck! Hate police.

#19 Posted by Soapy86 (2620 posts) -

I'm sure it's not intentional, but when he talks about Red Dead he really comes off like one of those contrarian douchebags (mostly on the internet) that hates something only because it's popular. But I know that can't be true because he fucking loves Call of Duty. 

#20 Posted by Rayfield (2097 posts) -
@Hamz said:

"Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy? "


I wasn't saying either of those things. 
 
 
  @zombie2011 said:

"He doesn't like the game get over it.  No one complained when Brad did it for Fable 3. "


Did you even read what I wrote in the OP?
#21 Posted by Hamz (6846 posts) -
@kingzetta said:
" @Rolyatkcinmai said:
" @Hamz said:
" Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy? "
Lack of gushing is fine, but even I noticed the outright hatred he seems to have for it.  Disliking a game is one thing, but when a game is clearly one of the absolute best of the year, and a strong GOTY contender at every site, it is not a bad game. "
Well there are crazier things out there, like people not liking mass effect 2 for example. "
Forgive me but it almost sounds like you're both saying that if someone doesn't agree with the majority and follow the lemmings as they jump off the cliff then that person's opinion is invalid....if that is what you're saying then shame on you both.
#22 Posted by csl316 (8649 posts) -

I don't like when Jeff takes an opinion and makes it sound like it's flat out wrong.  Like the Limbo discussion in one of this week's podcasts, holy shit.  Thought everyone was crazy, just because there was a difference of opinion.

#23 Posted by MyNameIsJoe (184 posts) -

Well it was pretty funny listening to the podcasts and hearing trying to crap on RDR every chance he got even though his criticisms never seemed valid.

#24 Posted by owl_of_minerva (1455 posts) -

His criticisms are invalid because they're based on what other people have said or maybe said rather than his play experience. You can dislike a game as much as you want but if you can't justify your opinion then it's not worth stating, really. Having an argument is much more important than agreeing or disagreeing with the consensus.

#25 Posted by Rolyatkcinmai (2687 posts) -
@Hamz said:
" @kingzetta said:
" @Rolyatkcinmai said:
" @Hamz said:
" Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy? "
Lack of gushing is fine, but even I noticed the outright hatred he seems to have for it.  Disliking a game is one thing, but when a game is clearly one of the absolute best of the year, and a strong GOTY contender at every site, it is not a bad game. "
Well there are crazier things out there, like people not liking mass effect 2 for example. "
Forgive me but it almost sounds like you're both saying that if someone doesn't agree with the majority and follow the lemmings as they jump off the cliff then that person's opinion is invalid....if that is what you're saying then shame on you both. "
Again, nope. 
 
I share Jeff's view on Limbo. I see no value in it at all. That said, clearly tons of people love it. so it's obviously not a bad game. I am not going to start saying every last part of it is pure crap just because I didn't care for it, when clearly I am in the minority.
#26 Posted by ZoomyRamen (237 posts) -

I agree with all of Jeff's Criticisms of RDR. I find RDR pretty dull, boring and apart from a damn fine ending a mediocre experiance at best.  
 
If Jeff really doesn't like a game why can't he be passionate about it? Why must being passionate only be reserved for when you love something? 

#27 Posted by natetodamax (19205 posts) -
@Heartbreak said:
" Well Red Dead Redemption is a boring game. "
Huh, I had a great time with it. It wasn't a perfect game but I thought it was exceptional in many ways.
#28 Posted by Bones8677 (3241 posts) -

I haven't really noticed outright "hatred" of Red Dead from Jeff. Nor do I really care if he hates it. Though is love for VVVVVV is starting to get grating in the GOTY episodes.

#29 Posted by RockAction (377 posts) -
@kingzetta said:
" I'm happy about it.  I beat RDR didn't think it was anything special at all.  Playing liar's dice was a million times more fun than doing just about anything else in that game. A great liar's dice simulator does not make game of the year. I was still the same very tired Rockstar style of open-world. Ride 10 minutes to a point, get a cutscene, ride 10 more minutes somewhere else, then a shoot a dozen guys. "
 
this is the first comment i've read about RDR that sums up my experience with it 
 
the liar's dice mini game is fantastic, spent about 2 hours on it the other night and the setting, the world and the characters are great but the story is almost none existent 
 
it feels as if they are trying to make a game of a western movie rather than having a period game 
 
its easy to give a character mystery and drip feed motive to move the story in a 2-3hours film, but in a 20+ hour game it doesnt work 
 
if anything i thought it was more clunky and broken than GTA4 and the missions were more dull and repetitve 
  
still really enjoy the game but i feel like im missing out on something with all the praise and GOTY awards  

to get back on topic, i didnt notice any disparaging comments jeff made, granted i wasnt looking out for them and havent listened to the past couple podcasts but i didnt notice anything
#30 Edited by Soapy86 (2620 posts) -
@ZoomyRamen said:

"If Jeff really doesn't like a game why can't he be passionate about it? Why must being passionate only be reserved for when you love something?  "

Because there's a difference between saying "I don't like this game" and "I think this game is bad".  
 
The Godfather Part II is a fantastic film, however it happens to be a film that I don't particularly like, but I would never, ever say it's a bad movie just because I don't like it. That's a really petty (not to mention egotistical) thing to do. 
#31 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -
@Hamz said:
" @kingzetta said:
" @Rolyatkcinmai said:
" @Hamz said:
" Are we sat here saying Jeff's criticism of the game is invalid or are we sitting here saying that Jeff is in a vocal minority who, when discussing RDR, don't feel the need to gush about it like a lovesick puppy? "
Lack of gushing is fine, but even I noticed the outright hatred he seems to have for it.  Disliking a game is one thing, but when a game is clearly one of the absolute best of the year, and a strong GOTY contender at every site, it is not a bad game. "
Well there are crazier things out there, like people not liking mass effect 2 for example. "
Forgive me but it almost sounds like you're both saying that if someone doesn't agree with the majority and follow the lemmings as they jump off the cliff then that person's opinion is invalid....if that is what you're saying then shame on you both. "
No I don't like RDR and really love Alpha Protocol and Lost Planet 2
#32 Posted by Mcfart (1624 posts) -

Wonder what Jeff wouldve done if he had to review it.

#33 Posted by ZoomyRamen (237 posts) -
@Soapy86: Surely saying "I Think" makes it all about opinion? Any opinion is valid whether you're in the majority or minority. 
#34 Posted by Troispoint (267 posts) -

RDR is so overrated. The shooting is alright, the story is alright and yes the world very well made. But thats no GOTY material, it has nothing going for it over Mass Effect 2 or Starcraft 2 in any way.

#35 Edited by Turtlemayor333 (510 posts) -

Stop making this to be about justification. Vinny was incredibly passionate about the fact that he hates Flower and gave no reasons why - and nobody cared. Ryan just recently insisted that Epic Mickey was total garbage because it wasn't what he expected - and nobody cared. There seems to be a pattern here. The justification doesn't really matter, the specific game and its fans do. Red Dead happens to have a massive following compared to those two and then you get a Blaz Blue freakout all over again. 
 
Although you can at least argue that game did get a review. For the record I don't think he "hates" RDR in the first place...more like just doesn't care. Thus no review, from him at least.
 
People also have a problem when he says "I hate westerns" for some reason. Why? Movie critics tend to get away with this kind of generalization all the time. Chances are quite a few people in this thread would say  "I hate zombies" with absolutely no justification other than their use in various media over the last four years.

#36 Edited by DeShawn2ks (1054 posts) -
@Rayfield:  I have also wondered the same thing. If I remember correctly he was big into GTA and in my personal opinion and a lot of people it seems Red Dead Redemption blew GTA IV out of the water. I know he is not a big fan of westerns but neither am I and I loved the game. GOTY day two podcast was really frustrating for me because Undead Nightmare got no love and I thought it was a fantastic piece dlc with loads of content, 4-6 hours of game time and plus it was only 10 bucks. If anything I think the battle should have been between Lair of the Shadow Broker and Undead Nightmare. I really wish he would play the game just a little bit more and go a little more in depth about what he didn't like about the game and maybe compare it with GTA IV.
#37 Posted by Catarrhal (831 posts) -

"Horse, meet rider; rider, meet horse." That's where Jeff went wrong with Red Dead Redemption. I think we all took a moment longer than expected to fully grasp the horse-riding controls, specifically with regard to accelerating and maintaining speed, yes? When Mr. Shoemaker brought this up recently, Jeff immediately fell silent. 
 
Personally, I'm okay with this. I've yet to finish the game myself. And I certainly would not confuse Jeff's perceived lack of interest with "hate."

#38 Posted by SuperfluousMoniker (2908 posts) -

Well, I played Red Dead up till when you're taking missions from that cocaine addict guy and (negative comments about RDR).

#39 Posted by Monte (229 posts) -

 Oh NOES dude doesn't like a game!!! 
 
Who cares, man. Don't you have better things to do than worry about someone else's opinion of a video game? 

#40 Edited by Fearbeard (830 posts) -
@ZombieHunter: 
 
One example was the GOTY day one Bombcast where they were discussing Best Character and Marston was being discussed; he seemed intent to point out every negative criticism he could think of for the character (most of which were shot down quickly by the rest of the GB crew who actually played through the game.)
 
Anyways, he's allowed to not be interested in a game.  It would be one thing if he had been forced to review it and brought his complete lack of interest in the setting and game taint his review, but that wasn't the case.
#41 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
@Anwar said:

" @seanfoster said:

" I don't mind that Jeff dislikes some games I enjoyed a lot, he's absolutely entitled to but I wish I had a better idea as to what he disliked about them.  I also noticed he was very dismissive and pessimistic of Brad's championing of Minerva's Den, bashing Bioshock 2 relentlessly when...Jeff himself gave that very game a 4 out of 5 on this site!  "

 

How can you sit there and give Bioshock 2 4 stars and claim in the review that the gameplay is solid. Then come GOTY time you shit all over the game as if it was a chore to play. Make up your mind.(question on formspring)

When we're talking about the best games of the entire year, the stakes get raised on EVERYTHING. Is that so hard to understand? [Jeff's answer]
 

  there you have it "
Sounds like the shit hits the fan.
 
  
#42 Posted by Jeust (10643 posts) -

*Raises pichfork* 
  
Let's hang him! 

Online
#43 Posted by warxsnake (2650 posts) -

sometimes people wanna be different i guess 

#44 Edited by Korolev (1706 posts) -

It's a bit of a shame that he doesn't like it, but then again, some people legitimately don't like that game. Or Mass Effect 2. Or God of War 3. No game appeals to everyone. There is no "universally" loved game - hell I met someone who hates Tetris. TETRIS. How can you hate Tetris? Someone found a way. 
 
Jeff doesn't like Red Dead. I never played it, I didn't have the time. So I can't say whether or not his like or dislike is warranted. The game just didn't click with him. And that's fine. Jeff loves Pac-Man and Beat Hazard, and I, personally, don't like either game that much. Yes, you heard me. I don't really care for Pac-Man. Pac-Man's not a bad game, but to me it's nothing special. And I detest Beat Hazard.

#45 Posted by DeShawn2ks (1054 posts) -
@Korolev:  You met someone who hates Tetris? Where are they at so we can go kick their ass.
#46 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
@Korolev said:
" It's a bit of a shame that he doesn't like it, but then again, some people legitimately don't like that game. Or Mass Effect 2. Or God of War 3. No game appeals to everyone one. There is no "universally" loved game - hell I met someone who hates Tetris. TETRIS. How can you hate Tetris? Someone found a way.  Jeff doesn't like Red Dead. I never played it, I didn't have the time. So I can't say whether or not his like or dislike is warranted. The game just didn't click with him. And that's fine. Jeff loves Pac-Man and Beat Hazard, and I, personally, don't like either game that much. Yes, you heard me. I don't really care for Pac-Man. And I detest Beat Hazard. "
I grew up in the Pac-Man arcade era. I hate Pac-Man. I bet I spent one quarter on that game. Wish I had it back.
#47 Edited by McGhee (6094 posts) -

No I wasn't aware of it. The only place I've heard this is from reading the bitching about it on the forums. This tells me it isn't that big of a deal and the fanboys are freaking out.

#48 Posted by Vinny_Says (5706 posts) -

Jeff:
 
"I really liked Bioshock 2, but if I had to play that gameplay again...."
 Bombcast GOTY day 2.
 
"Isn't John Marston just a generic cowboy?"
Bombcast GOTY day 2  
 
Did Jeff even finish RDR? or play Minerva's Den? He made way to many judgment calls on Minerva's Den and Shadow Broker, it was hella weird. Especially since Ryan was right there sitting quietly because he didn't play Minerva's Den too....Jeff is usually more professional.

#49 Posted by VisariLoyalist (2992 posts) -

No I'm not aware! Infact I choose to ignore it!

#50 Posted by DystopiaX (5310 posts) -
@Anwar said:
" @seanfoster said:

" I don't mind that Jeff dislikes some games I enjoyed a lot, he's absolutely entitled to but I wish I had a better idea as to what he disliked about them.  I also noticed he was very dismissive and pessimistic of Brad's championing of Minerva's Den, bashing Bioshock 2 relentlessly when...Jeff himself gave that very game a 4 out of 5 on this site!  "

 

How can you sit there and give Bioshock 2 4 stars and claim in the review that the gameplay is solid. Then come GOTY time you shit all over the game as if it was a chore to play. Make up your mind.(question on formspring)

When we're talking about the best games of the entire year, the stakes get raised on EVERYTHING. Is that so hard to understand? [Jeff's answer]
 

  there you have it "
His point wasn't that Bioshock 2 gameplay was necessarily bad, it was that it's repetitive and after playing through the game no one would want more. He was using more definite verbs because Brad was, etc. Basically like he said, things escalate whenever you get into a GOTY argument. 
 
Also, I don't think it was active hate on his part, just whenever it came up he said he still didn't care for it. I don't think it's a big deal, he'll state his opinion about every topic that comes up, assuming he's played it/is in a position to give an opinion. 
@blacklabeldomm
said:
" Jeff:
 
"I really liked Bioshock 2, but if I had to play that gameplay again...."
 Bombcast GOTY day 2.
 
"Isn't John Marston just a generic cowboy?" Bombcast GOTY day 2    Did Jeff even finish RDR? or play Minerva's Den? He made way to many judgment calls on Minerva's Den and Shadow Broker, it was hella weird. Especially since Ryan was right there sitting quietly because he didn't play Minerva's Den too....Jeff is usually more professional. "
He didn't finish RDR, because he couldn't get into it. He admitted that. he said he played a couple hours, figured out it wasn't for him, then moved on. That two hours is still long enough to learn about the basics of Marston's character as well as the gameplay, and in your quote he wasn't making an assertion, just asking if what he saw from his couple hours was true, which I believe was confirmed during that discussion.  With Minerva's Den, never did he actually say that any part of it specifically was terrible, just that he wouldn't want to play it after playing Bioshock 2, which he DID finish. In no way was that unprofessional, he was giving his opinion that, having played both ME2 and Bioshock 2, he would much rather play anything ME2 related because the Bioshock 2 gameplay itself is boring, which Brad stated did not change between that and Minerva's Den, so that opinion in particular is one he could make. Likewise, when he said he'd rather play Shadow Broker because he cared more about the ME world/story, that was another opinion he was in a position to make. He didn't say he would be uninterested in Minerva's Den's story specifically, just that he wouldn't care as much, was done with rapture, and didn't want to go through more gameplay. 
 
Had he said that Minerva's Den was terrible, or the story of Minerva's Den was terrible, then I would agree with you, but he didn't. In fact, he made it clear several times that, having not played the game, what he was hearing from Brad still made it sound like Shadow Broker was better. In almost all of the GOTY categories one or more of the editors had to make calls based on games they hadn't played; it just seemed like a bigger deal here because the best DLC argument went on for so damn long.

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