Ocelot: Hero of Villain

#1 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -

 I don't get why people say Ocelot is a hero. He said it himself; he wanted the world to descend into chaos, thus fulfilling Big Boss' dream. But then Otacon says FOXALIVE prevented all of that. It cut off the Patriots, but also preserved society. 
 
So in other words, Ocelot was completely clueless. 
 
Where's the confusion?    

#2 Posted by anywhereilay (175 posts) -

Probably when you say "Hero of Villain"

#3 Posted by Nasos100 (727 posts) -

what? MGS story line is fucked up

#4 Posted by FunExplosions (5407 posts) -

"FOXALIVE" 
 
...Oh god. Time to start anew, Kojima.

#5 Posted by mylifeforAiur (3489 posts) -

I view him as a hero. He only wanted to destroy the Patriots after all, right? To fulfil Big Bosses goal.

#6 Posted by ryoma122 (699 posts) -

well like most things in metal gear the bad guys are good guys and the good guys are being used by the real bad guys to stop the other good guys

#7 Posted by Raymayne (1226 posts) -

Hero>>>>Villain 
 
MGS3>>>MGS

#8 Posted by FLStyle (4927 posts) -
@JohnKiller118 said:
" I don't get why people say Ocelot is a hero. He said it himself; he wanted the world to descend into chaos, thus fulfilling Big Boss' dream. But then Otacon says FOXALIVE prevented all of that. It cut off the Patriots, but also preserved society. So in other words, Ocelot was completely clueless. Where's the confusion? "
You're confusing yourself with what Liquid Ocelot wanted and what Revolver Ocelot wanted.
#9 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -
@anywhereilay said: 

" Probably when you say "Hero of Villain" "

Fuck you. :P  
 
@Nasos100
 said: 

" what? MGS story line is fucked up "

I agree, but I still love it. 
Well, at least I love my interpretation.

 
 
@FunExplosions

 said: 

" "FOXALIVE"  ...Oh god. Time to start anew, Kojima. "

Yes. 
Where's my third Snatcher-like cinematic adventure game, Kojima?! 
Stop giving Big Boss fanboys blow job material and make that taboo project already.

 
@mylifeforAiur

 said: 

" I view him as a hero. He only wanted to destroy the Patriots after all, right? To fulfil Big Bosses goal. "

Well yeah. Big Boss wanted to stop the Patriots. It's just that he wanted to fulfill his own misinterpretation of the Boss' will by turning the world into one big battlefield. 
Kind of like the war economy, but without the Patriots' control and restrictions. 

 
@ryoma122

 said: 

" well like most things in metal gear the bad guys are good guys and the good guys are being used by the real bad guys to stop the other good guys "

Liquid 
Volgin 
 
The Boss is an exception, but she was still working under the orders of the "real bad guys."  
But that's the point; her mission coincided with her beliefs, ie the world not getting nuked. 
 

@Raymayne

 said: 

" Hero>>>>Villain  MGS3>>>MGS "

Villain>>>Hero 
MG2>MGS1=MGS2>>>MGS3 

@FLStyle

 said: 

@JohnKiller118 said: 

" I don't get why people say Ocelot is a hero. He said it himself; he wanted the world to descend into chaos, thus fulfilling Big Boss' dream. But then Otacon says FOXALIVE prevented all of that. It cut off the Patriots, but also preserved society. So in other words, Ocelot was completely clueless. Where's the confusion? "

You're confusing yourself with what Liquid Ocelot wanted and what Revolver Ocelot wanted. "
"Confusing"? The ONLY reason people think like this is because of that "this is just as I had hoped things would end" line. He then goes on to talk about how he only wanted to free soldiers (hence Outer Heaven.) And to solidify everything, he predicts that the world will descend into chaos, and that people will realize the fullness of life through battle, thus Outer Heaven is fulfilled. 
All of this is DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED by both Naomi and Otacon, when they explain what FOXALIVE did. 
 
EVA said that Ocelot was fighting for Big Boss, and his admiration for the man speaks for itself in MGS3. He didn't just admire him; he was a full blown Big Boss fanboy. Both the official handbook (from what I heard) and even the Database said he secretly worked for Big Boss (with the former saying he actually joined Outer Heaven. Makes sense.) 
 
Now, if I see people post "well there you go; Big Boss = Good, so that must mean Ocelot = Good!", that's when I decide I'm done with this thread. Big Boss isn't the good guy. He had noble intentions, but piss poor execution (like Solidus.) He admits his mistakes at the end of the game, while also praising Solid Snake for staying true to what he now realized was the Boss' true will.
But even if I were to assume Big Boss is a hero (even though Big Boss himself admits otherwise), I could say that Ocelot misinterpreted Big Boss' will.    
#10 Posted by RichardLOlson (1852 posts) -

Ocelot is a very heavy character in the MGS universe and I would love to see someone make it into a movie.

#11 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -

 Nah, Ocelot is fine as he is; a chronic backstabbing disorder suffering Big Boss fanboy. 
No need for a movie.   
 
So yeah, anyway, I don't really see how Ocelot can be called a hero... at all. 
 
If staying true to the Boss' noble will is what determines if someone is "da troo hero o da seeres", then I believe that title belongs to Solid Snake.

#12 Posted by FLStyle (4927 posts) -
@JohnKiller118 said:

"Confusing"? The ONLY reason people think like this is because of that "this is just as I had hoped things would end" line. He then goes on to talk about how he only wanted to free soldiers (hence Outer Heaven.) And to solidify everything, he predicts that the world will descend into chaos, and that people will realize the fullness of life through battle, thus Outer Heaven is fulfilled. 
All of this is DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED by both Naomi and Otacon, when they explain what FOXALIVE did. "

Liquid Ocelot.
 
 @JohnKiller118 said:

"EVA said that Ocelot was fighting for Big Boss, and his admiration for the man speaks for itself in MGS3. He didn't just admire him; he was a full blown Big Boss fanboy. Both the official handbook (from what I heard) and even the Database said he secretly worked for Big Boss (with the former saying he actually joined Outer Heaven. Makes sense.) 
 
Now, if I see people post "well there you go; Big Boss = Good, so that must mean Ocelot = Good!", that's when I decide I'm done with this thread. Big Boss isn't the good guy. He had noble intentions, but piss poor execution (like Solidus.) He admits his mistakes at the end of the game, while also praising Solid Snake for staying true to what he now realized was the Boss' true will.
But even if I were to assume Big Boss is a hero (even though Big Boss himself admits otherwise), I could say that Ocelot misinterpreted Big Boss' will."

Revolver Ocelot.
 
Satisfied?
#13 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -

I really liked Ocelot in MGS3 and the "friendly competition" between him and Big Boss in the game.  I don't know if I would say hero but I liked him :P

#14 Posted by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -
@FLStyle: What's your point? 
 
Both Liquid and Ocelot shared a common goal. In MGS1, he calls Liquid an "amazing man," going so far as to say that he is "the one man that could make my dream a reality," which is why he took on the psychotherapy process to "become" Liquid in the first place. 
@Resident4t said: 

" I really liked Ocelot in MGS3 and the "friendly competition" between him and Big Boss in the game.  I don't know if I would say hero but I liked him :P "

Yeah, I think Ocelot's cool. If anything, him being a hero would RUIN his character.
#15 Posted by FLStyle (4927 posts) -
@JohnKiller118 said:

" @FLStyle: What's your point?"

Ocelot wanted to end The Patriots and free Big Boss, that's it. It was the Liquid persona that "wanted the world to descend into chaos, thus fulfilling Big Boss' dream." You're misinterpreting it as if what Liquid Ocelot said and did was also what Ocelot himself wanted.
 
 @JohnKiller118 said:

" Both Liquid and Ocelot shared a common goal. In MGS1, he calls Liquid an "amazing man," going so far as to say that he is "the one man that could make my dream a reality," which is why he took on the psychotherapy process to "become" Liquid in the first place."

There is no proof that the dream Ocelot was referring to in MGS1 has anything to do with the events of MGS4. Everything Hideo Kojima does is to put together pieces of the story later on by making additions or in some cases changing things completely, as he did by creating a "real" reason why Ocelot "accidentally" tortured the DARPA Chief to death in MGS1 by creating the part of the story saying that Sigint and DARPA Chief are one and the same and that as a member of The Patriots who could blow Ocelot's cover to FOXHOUND and Solidus before he could free Big Boss and end The Patriots, he had to be killed.
 
All these ret-cons are created as the series went a long, if you're to be believed, the entire story from Metal Gear to MGS1 to MGS4 was planned from the start which is not the case. You can't just pull a random quote out like "the one man that could make my dream a reality,"  and say oh so that's what he meant later in MGS4 and that's why he did what he did. It wasn't planned like that and it wasn't made like that.
#16 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -
@FLStyle said:

"Ocelot wanted to end The Patriots and free Big Boss, that's it. It was the Liquid persona that "wanted the world to descend into chaos, thus fulfilling Big Boss' dream." You're misinterpreting it as if what Liquid Ocelot said and did was also what Ocelot himself wanted."  

Okay, tell me; when did you first get the idea that Ocelot might be he hero? 
That's right, when Liquid Ocelot said that "this is just as I had hoped things would end!" 
You can't just say "oh, the Ocelot persona was able to break free briefly to say that" because he continues to speak from Liquid's perspective (calling Snake and Solidus "brothers", and Big Boss "father") as the conversation goes on, without even a hint of the two personas switching around mind way. Not only that, but all he talks about is how he wanted to free SOLDIERS. All he was concerned about was freeing the Patriot's SOLDIERS from SOP's control. That sounds allot like the classic interpretation of Big Boss' Outer Heaven to me. 
The whole fight with Liquid Ocelot was meant to portray Snake beating the "Liquid" out of him. So if anything, Liquid Ocelot's words later in the fight should hold more truth to Ocelot's intentions than it was before the fight.
And he talks about how he wanted the world to descend into chaos... which is all contradicted by Naomi and Otacon.
Yes, I am aware that the Liquid persona was still at least partially in control over him, but if Ocelot was able to quickly let out a "lol dis is how i wanted things to turn out" before the fight, then he should be able to at least get Liquid to shut the fuck up about his "fake" plans. 
 
I guess at this point, it's open to one's interpretation, but I still find it hard to imagine Ocelot wanting anything other than the revival of Outer Heaven. It's not even that hard to assume; MGS3 showed us that he's a Big Boss fanboy, and this is later confirmed by EVA when she said that he was "fighting for Big Boss." Hell, the official handbook said he joined Outer Heaven at some point. Even if I were to discard the official handbook, the database still says that he secretly worked for Big Boss sometime between the time he left the Patriots and Metal Gear 2. That's all I needed to convince me that Ocelot is a twat. Unless you think Big Boss is a hero. In which case, I'm done with this thread.

"There is no proof that the dream Ocelot was referring to in MGS1 has anything to do with the events of MGS4. Everything Hideo Kojima does is to put together pieces of the story later on by making additions or in some cases changing things completely, as he did by creating a "real" reason why Ocelot "accidentally" tortured the DARPA Chief to death in MGS1 by creating the part of the story saying that Sigint and DARPA Chief are one and the same and that as a member of The Patriots who could blow Ocelot's cover to FOXHOUND and Solidus before he could free Big Boss and end The Patriots, he had to be killed. 
 
All these ret-cons are created as the series went a long, if you're to be believed, the entire story from Metal Gear to MGS1 to MGS4 was planned from the start which is not the case. You can't just pull a random quote out like "the one man that could make my dream a reality,"  and say oh so that's what he meant later in MGS4 and that's why he did what he did. It wasn't planned like that and it wasn't made like that. "

I'm not denying that Kojima pulls shit out of his ass as he goes along (one of the biggest reasons I wished the series ended with MGS2), but it's an interesting way to look at it. Kojima did throw references to lines that you normally didn't think twice about (like how he explained Vulcan Raven's "blood from the east flows within your veins" line referred to how he was fertilized in an egg of Dr.Clark's Japanese friend, or how Liquid Ocelot and EVA said a variation of Gray Fox's speech about how he is a "dieing shadow in the world of light" before they died.) 
You can't just say "hurr overanalysis" because these games were designed to be "over" analyzed.
#17 Posted by WalkerTR77 (1390 posts) -

Its all relative, but he had an excellent mustache.

#18 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -
@WalkerTR77 said:

" Its all relative, but he had an excellent mustache. "

No disagreement here. :D
#19 Posted by Lego_My_Eggo (1066 posts) -

Where is Leigh Alexander to answer these questions? <>
 
I like the way metal gear games have bad guys that are not simple, they often have a back story that shows there motives and leaves them open to some interpretation.

#20 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -
@Lego_My_Eggo said:

" Where is Leigh Alexander to answer these questions? <> "


 Who? 

" I like the way metal gear games have bad guys that are not simple, they often have a back story that shows there motives and leaves them open to some interpretation. "

Volgin 
Other than that, you are completely correct.  

in fact, Big Boss kind of goes over that in his speech. 
"Know this... Zero and I... Liquid and Solidus... we all fought a long, bloody war for our liberty. We fought to free ourselves from nations... and systems... and norms, and ages. But no matter how hard we tried, the only liberty we found... was on the inside... trapped within those limits. The Boss and I may have chosen different paths, but in the end, we were both trapped inside the same cage… liberty… But you (Snake) have been given freedom… freedom to be… outside."
#21 Edited by FLStyle (4927 posts) -
@JohnKiller118 said:

" @FLStyle said:

"Ocelot wanted to end The Patriots and free Big Boss, that's it. It was the Liquid persona that "wanted the world to descend into chaos, thus fulfilling Big Boss' dream." You're misinterpreting it as if what Liquid Ocelot said and did was also what Ocelot himself wanted."  

Okay, tell me; when did you first get the idea that Ocelot might be he hero?
At the end of Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops when Ocelot calls Zero to talk about inviting Big Boss to form The Patriots. I assumed that something must've gone wrong for Big Boss to set up Outer Heaven and Zanzibarland in MG and MG2. I also assumed that Ocelot would take Big Boss's side.
 

@JohnKiller118

said:

" That's right, when Liquid Ocelot said that "this is just as I had hoped things would end!" 
You can't just say "oh, the Ocelot persona was able to break free briefly to say that" because he continues to speak from Liquid's perspective (calling Snake and Solidus "brothers", and Big Boss "father") as the conversation goes on, without even a hint of the two personas switching around mind way. Not only that, but all he talks about is how he wanted to free SOLDIERS. All he was concerned about was freeing the Patriot's SOLDIERS from SOP's control. That sounds allot like the classic interpretation of Big Boss' Outer Heaven to me. 
The whole fight with Liquid Ocelot was meant to portray Snake beating the "Liquid" out of him. So if anything, Liquid Ocelot's words later in the fight should hold more truth to Ocelot's intentions than it was before the fight.
And he talks about how he wanted the world to descend into chaos... which is all contradicted by Naomi and Otacon.
Yes, I am aware that the Liquid persona was still at least partially in control over him, but if Ocelot was able to quickly let out a "lol dis is how i wanted things to turn out" before the fight, then he should be able to at least get Liquid to shut the fuck up about his "fake" plans. 
 
I guess at this point, it's open to one's interpretation, but I still find it hard to imagine Ocelot wanting anything other than the revival of Outer Heaven. It's not even that hard to assume; MGS3 showed us that he's a Big Boss fanboy, and this is later confirmed by EVA when she said that he was "fighting for Big Boss." Hell, the official handbook said he joined Outer Heaven at some point. Even if I were to discard the official handbook, the database still says that he secretly worked for Big Boss sometime between the time he left the Patriots and Metal Gear 2. That's all I needed to convince me that Ocelot is a twat. Unless you think Big Boss is a hero. In which case, I'm done with this thread.

"this is just as I had hoped things would end!"  is 100% Liquid. Liquid Ocelot and Naomi tricked everyone into thinking he was going to nuke JD when he actually wanted to FOXALIVE to be inserted. But Sunny made the descision on Naomi's behalf to alter the program to save parts of modern society as stated by Otacon. As I've said Ocelot only wanted to end The Patriots and free Big Boss. Liquid wanted to end The Patriots in order to establish a Wild West version of Outer Heaven. Naomi through Sunny wanted to end The Patriots, free Big Boss and save all the good parts of society, making America an innocent child once more as she put it. So you went behind Liquid Ocelot's back and made the changes.
 
Which brings me onto my point about Ocelot. Ocelot has no interest whatsoever in Outer Heaven. He admires BB as a man and creates The Patriots with him as a means to establish The Boss's will. Then he sides with BB against Zero after it has become clear that Zero has lost sight of what that will was. This includes working for BB in the respect that he relayed details to Big Boss about Zero and his plans as a sleeper agent, as stated in the MGS database. I have no recollection of a MGS official handbook and I doubt Ocelot literally worked under Outer Heaven at any point. Ocelot is against nukes (as shown when he tried to stop Volgin) and wouldn't have gone along with the plans BB had in MG and MG2. As far as I'm concerned he stayed in Russia as stated by EVA in MGS4, Scene 3 during her explanation of The Patriots. He'd feed info back to the USA about Russia and in turn take orders from Zero, then feed those orders back to BB. All the while building a reputation in Russia as one of their best.
 
My take on BB is that he is a man who was screwed over too many times, even by Zero when he tried to make the world a better place, and it took him down a dark path which he would later regret in the final scene of MGS4 (wondering if Snake would've made the same mistakes he did). But what he did in MG and MG2 he did to get rid of Zero and The Patriots. Plotting coup d'état against Zero as EVA put it. The means to the end were evil ones, a fact he knew going into it, but the end goal wasn't.

 

@JohnKiller118

said:

"I'm not denying that Kojima pulls shit out of his ass as he goes along (one of the biggest reasons I wished the series ended with MGS2), but it's an interesting way to look at it. Kojima did throw references to lines that you normally didn't think twice about (like how he explained Vulcan Raven's "blood from the east flows within your veins" line referred to how he was fertilized in an egg of Dr.Clark's Japanese friend, or how Liquid Ocelot and EVA said a variation of Gray Fox's speech about how he is a "dieing shadow in the world of light" before they died.) 

You can't just say "hurr overanalysis" because these games were designed to be "over" analyzed. "
  The examples you've given here are fine, they make sense, but the one you gave earlier about Ocelot's dream seems like a shot in the dark on your part.
 
@JohnKiller118 said:
" @Lego_My_Eggo said:

" Where is Leigh Alexander to answer these questions? <> "


 Who? "
Leigh Alexander is a drunken idiot who's ruined two bombcasts single handedly and has a following of Internet White Knights who proclaim that her drunken antics are praiseworthy. She writes at Gamasutra and actually does some fairly competent articles, which makes her all the more annoying when you consider that she lets herself become the previously mentioned drunken idiot.
#22 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -
@FLStyle said:

At the end of Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops when Ocelot calls Zero to talk about inviting Big Boss to form The Patriots. I assumed that something must've gone wrong for Big Boss to set up Outer Heaven and Zanzibarland in MG and MG2. I also assumed that Ocelot would take Big Boss's side.  

I lol'd. 
Seriously? The fact that Ocelot rikes Big Boss allot was enough to make you consider the idea that a sadistic, backstabbing, potential rapist... was a hero? 
To healthy minded people like me, that only solidified my thinking that Ocelot is a twat.    

 Liquid Ocelot and Naomi tricked everyone into thinking he was going to nuke JD

To Liquid Ocelot, it would have worked out either way. If he nuked JD, cool. He gets to control the world/somehow recover from the Liquid persona, find Big Boss, and get him to be in charge. If FOXALIVE gets uploaded, world chaos still ensures. He still wins, even if he looses his army (he never seemed to care much for them in the first place. He used them as ginnie pigs for tests in Act 1 and 2. To him, they're just pawns to help him meet his end.) 
 
You could say that the reason he wanted to fight Snake one last time is similar to the reason Liquid Snake fought Snake after loosing REX.    

  As I've said Ocelot only wanted to end The Patriots and free Big Boss.

In a way, "awakening Big Boss" could be a metaphor for reviving Outer Heaven, since the end of the Patriots would have sparked Outer Heaven, had it not been for Sunny's modifications.

Naomi through Sunny wanted to end The Patriots, free Big Boss and save all the good parts of society, making America an innocent child once more as she put it. So you went behind Liquid Ocelot's back and made the changes.    

I'm glad we agree that Naomi did some chronic backstabbing in MGS4. It's just that I also believe she was stabbing Ocelot in the back, ever since the end of MGS1, when she 1.) found out that Snake wasn't that bad of a guy, 2.) found out that Gray Fox still considers Snake a close friend, and vice versa, and 3.) found a new outlook on life. 

 Ocelot has no interest whatsoever in Outer Heaven.

His undieing fanboyism for Big Boss says otherwise. 

 He admires BB as a man and creates The Patriots with him as a means to establish The Boss's will. Then he sides with BB against Zero after it has become clear that Zero has lost sight of what that will was. This includes working for BB in the respect that he relayed details to Big Boss about Zero and his plans as a sleeper agent, as stated in the MGS database. I have no recollection of a MGS official handbook and I doubt Ocelot literally worked under Outer Heaven at any point.    

How can you work for Big Boss, and not work under Outer Heaven? 
We hear nothing from Ocelot in Peace Walker. In fact, BB seemed to keep his distance from the other Patriot members, and wasn't all that concerned about the Patriots until they try to fuck with his shit in Chapter 5. That really begins the war against Zero.
And Big Boss had nukes on ZEKE by then. 

Ocelot is against nukes (as shown when he tried to stop Volgin)    

Didn't he try to calm the DCI/that russian guy (forgot which one) down over how the Boss nuked Grazni Grad, saying that it was a "necessary sacrifice" in Snake Eater's phone call?  
Most likely, he just found Volgin firing the nuke completely unnecessary.

As far as I'm concerned he stayed in Russia as stated by EVA in MGS4, Scene 3 during her explanation of The Patriots.    

She was referring to when the founders were all still members, before BB left. 

 He'd feed info back to the USA about Russia and in turn take orders from Zero, then feed those orders back to BB. All the while building a reputation in Russia as one of their best.    

If Ocelot didn't work for/want to support Outer Heaven, why would he bother feeding stuff to Big Boss?  

My take on BB is that he is a man who was screwed over too many times, even by Zero when he tried to make the world a better place, and it took him down a dark path which he would later regret in the final scene of MGS4 (wondering if Snake would've made the same mistakes he did). But what he did in MG and MG2 he did to get rid of Zero and The Patriots. Plotting coup d'état against Zero as EVA put it. The means to the end were evil ones, a fact he knew going into it, but the end goal wasn't.    

My take on Big Boss is that he's a terrible man who used evil means to meet an evil end. He wanted to craft the world into his own ideal image; a world where soldiers would always have a place. 

He's the anti-thesis of everything the series is about. To me, the entire Outer Heaven non-ideology as a whole, represents how so called "revolutionaries" can be just as bad as whoever they're rebelling against, and how naive people can be when supporting these terrible people (ie Big Boss fanboys.)

He rescued war orphans simply to indoctrinate them into his army. He made everyone who he commanded think that war is their only calling in life. Sniper Wolf, for example, claimed that he took her away from the battlefield. In reality... he just took her far enough away from it to get a good shot from her SNIPER RIFLE.

Ya know, to KILL PEOPLE.

No matter how good he may have been in the prequels, the fact remains that he allowed his anger and ego get the best of him.

Sure, destroying the Patriots may seem good at first, until you realize that he wanted to do it just to turn the entire world into one big battlefield. Then you realize this isn't much better. 
 

All just because he thought the Boss betrayed him in her "final mission"... which he later realizes is bullshit in MGS4.

"O SRY MA BAD LOL"  

 His successors aren’t much better. Liquid is the ultimate twat, and Ocelot writes Liquid x Big Boss incest S&M bondage yaoi.  The relationship between Big Boss and Ocelot can be compared to that of Peter Stillman and Fatman in MGS2. This is probably the most tragic, considering that he was actually the Boss' son.

I repeat; if staying true to the Boss' will is enough to call someone the hero of the series, then Solid Snake, NOT Big Boss or Ocelot, is the hero

The examples you've given here are fine, they make sense, but the one you gave earlier about Ocelot's dream seems like a shot in the dark on your part.

How is it a shot in the dark? 
Ocelot is a Big Boss fanboy. In MGS1, he apparently likes Liquid allot, probably because he's a son of Big Boss. 
So in MGS4, we have Ocelot hypnotizing himself into thinking he's Liquid in order to reestablish Outer Heaven.

It makes perfect sense. 
 

@WalkerTR77

 said: 

" Its all relative "

Let me be clearer on what I meant; this thread is mainly about what Ocelot's intentions were.
 
Personally, because of Ocelot's idolization of Big Boss (which seemed obvious in MGS3 and confirmed by Big Mamma in MGS4, going so far as to say that he was "fighting for Big Boss"), I believe that Ocelot wanted to turn the world into the world Big Boss tried to achieve with Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land, ie a world where soldiers will always have a place. Basically, the entire world turned into one big battlefield. He tried to hijack the System to gain military superiority, similar to why Big Boss kidnapped Dr.Kio Marv to get the OILIX formula in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake. Although I heard that the whole "hijacking the System" thing was just a ruse to trick Snake into destroying the Patriots in order to establish a global "wild west" (which he did in fact believe was what the world was at that point.) I believe that that was simply his bare minimum goal, should he not be able to gain control of the System. You could say that the reason Liquid Ocelot wanted to fight Snake was for the same reason Liquid Snake fought Snake in MGS1 (in the later scenario, Snake destroys REX, so in order to redeem himself, Liquid tries to kill Snake.) Either way, it doesn't exactly put Ocelot in a positive light (but that's not what I'm trying to argue.) 
 
However, both Naomi and Otacon explain that FOXALIVE only cut off the Patriots, while preserving civilization. So, Liquid Ocelot was clueless when he said "soon the world will descend into chaos."
  
I really don't see how anyone could get confused by that. And while Big Boss' wording may have raised a few eye brows, they don't absolutely confirm that Ocelot wanted the world to be the peace-loving state that Otacon's speech at the end of Act 5 and the epilogue heavily imply. And the fact that he praises Solid Snake, going so far as to say that had he been in his place back then, he may not have made the same mistakes he made, solidifies that it was in fact Solid Snake, not him or Ocelot, that saved the world from ruin.    
#23 Edited by JohnKiller118 (62 posts) -

You guys are a complete joke. I saw the page edited again to go back to the "hurr secret hero" bs. And it's even more retarded this time than before. 
It said something about how Ocelot knew that the new FOXDIE was going to kill him, and he went through his entire plan, fully knowing that it will kill him, painting some kind of heroic image out of him.
SERIOUSLY, WHEN IS THIS EVEN IMPLIED IN THE GAME!??!?!?!  
 
Liquid Ocelot said that he thought the world would descend into chaos in his victory speech (RIGHT AFTER saying "this is just as I had hoped things would end!") He wanted to create an ARMY of free citizens. He was only concerned about freeing SOLDIERS from the grips of SOP. 
And Otacon explains why his predictions were bullshit. 
 
Don't say that Liquid and Ocelot had different goals; it was explicitly stated that Ocelot idolized Big Boss. So it's not hard to assume that he was a fan of Outer Heaven. And in MGS1, he goes on about how awesome Liquid is during the torture sessions. 
 
Remember Big Boss' words; 
"Know this... Zero and I... Liquid and Solidus... we all fought a long, bloody war for our liberty. We fought to free ourselves from nations... and systems... and norms, and ages. But no matter how hard we tried, the only liberty we found... was on the inside... trapped within those limits. The Boss and I may have chosen different paths, but in the end, we were both trapped inside the same cage… liberty… But you (Snake) have been given freedom… freedom to be… outside."  
 
It was Solid Snake; his ideals, his will, his actions, and the actions of those that looked up to him (Otacon, Naomi, Jack, Meryl, Sunny etc) that saved the world. Big Boss messed up, and began a clusterfuck of sins that would be passed down to future generations (Liquid, Solidus, and Ocelot.) Ocelot is simply another victim to Big Boss' misinterpretation of the Boss' will. 
Big Boss spilled the milk. Liquid, Solidus, and Ocelot only helped spill more milk. Solid Snake carries the burden of cleaning up their mess. 
 
Thankfully, it's edited back to reality.

#24 Posted by Ace20A (24 posts) -

Sounds more like a fanboy trying to convince everybody to like Solid Snake only to me.

#25 Posted by SamStrife (1286 posts) -

@Ace20A: WOW!

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