Game's been out for public alpha for 2 days and I have yet to win a match. I'm losing, badly. I can hold my own in Mortal Kombat X but this reminds me of what it's like playing online with street fighter. Just barely scratching opponents because they memorized everything and know the technicalities to each character. You know how you realize that when they hit you immediately after you stop blocking because they are so practiced in fighting games so you really never get a chance to even try a move.

I'm hoping this is partly due to it not having balance since people only play Talos and Crow.

My other thought is that this really isn't fixing what keeps people from playing fighting games. When the online community becomes so skilled that it's toxic the new players. That's with most games but fighting games the feeling of being beaten is a little more frustrating.

I'm hoping they implement a ranked matchmaking later because it's pretty obvious that I'm getting matched with skilled players even after I have definitely lost enough to make some kind of ranking functional. Giving an opening for people who suck will be such a boon for this game.

Edit: This discussion is really constructive as we continue to understand what Rising Thunder is, or will be. Lots of ideas and advice. People are starting to only reply to my first post here so I'll paste my other response. Otherwise all the input here is great.

I definitely encourage people to try Rising Thunder, I'm still playing it.

Old reply to early comments:

"Being toxic in games is something that totally repels someone from it. So unapproachable online battles are as toxic as assholes. So people should take to heart that this issue is in fact toxic to the potential growth and popularity of this game. It doesn't have the base and (so far) marketing that something like Dota has to push people over that learning curve.

The bulk of what you're saying is addressing something else. I agree that a good game should have depth. That's not what this is about. And you are trying to explain what I get. You don't need to explain to me how to enjoy a fighting game. I am fairly good at MK and most people in the forums get fighting games. What I'm trying to express is that I need to practice and there is no avenue to improve. That is the point. I can't figure out my combos, I can't understand how to create space, rush, control, because every move I can make has been worked out and is dominated by a skilled playing. That's the point.

Of course I'm going to keep playing, but most people are not going to be that patient, they are going to log on a few times and then put it down. Right now the only people who are getting into this alpha are people who follow fighting games, so it's not a problem. Later though, when word spreads that this is suppose be a more approachable fighting game. That person who logs on and has a few matches is going to go, "Uh this is the same shit," and leave it. It's the structure that is the larger problem now, otherwise this is just another fighting game most people will suck at.

Now to a certain extent, there is only so much you can do to make a ranking system to match people up, eventually there will just be the skilled players, like any game. So I don't know what the answer is, but I feel like the balance of making a good fighting game and being approachable has yet to be achieved. Maybe the gameplay can be tweaked to help new players catch moves, see special queues, slow things down at some points. I don't know if these are good or bad ideas but as of now, this is forming up to be another giant barrier to entry."

Agreed, the few times I tried to play everyone I was matched with was silver tier or above, and it made trying to learn the game pretty pointless. This was before the open alpha though, so I'm hoping that the player base expands a whole bunch and the matchmaking gets better.

Yeah, if anything the low bar of execution has meant that I've reached a pretty disgusting level in way shorter of a time. I have no idea how people new to fighting games could possibly deal with Crow mixups or Vlad/Edge pressure.

I'm pretty sure the same thing happened with Divekick, though that game's community didn't last too long.

I've found the game to be pretty fair so far. Like with Street Fighter, you can get pretty far with just basic fundamentals. No fancy combos are necessary.

Unfortunately, as with what happens with basically every fighting game, the people who understand how to play can easily outclass the casual players. Especially with this game which doesn't have proper ranked matchmaking yet people can easily be matched against people who are outside their skill level. Eliminating the inputs for special moves won't fix this. It just lowers the skill floor so casual people can throw fireballs or DP in a more consistent fashion. In theory that would allow them to get past the special abilities and learn other fundamentals that are necessary to compete. Since this current version has no proper tutorial or training mode it is easy for people unaccustomed to fighting games to not realize the things they need to learn.

Toxic? Wow wow now. If they were being assholes and talking shit for no reason I could see the argument for saying the game is toxic for new players. Toxic is a loaded word.

Semantics aside, losing over and over again and not understanding the reasons for it besides "these guys are too good" can be a frustrating feeling.

The game is in alpha now so i'm sure they will get a better ranking system. But in the meantime you have to understand that this gap in skill is what makes fighting games so great. Really look at why you are losing and think critically about it. As someone who is really into the minutia of FGs it's always hard to explain to new people the reason these games are so fun and rewarding to play. Rising Thunder does away with a lot of the execution and gets right down to the mind games of FGs. Hearing Drew on the bombcast talk about how he is slowly understanding the intricacies of FGs makes me so happy this game exists.

The majority of the FGC is a welcoming bunch (every community has assholes of course). A wealth of knowledge to get better at these games is out there if you choose to look.

I still understand the best way to learn is playing against people of around equal skill level. So maybe reaching out to a friend or looking online for a training partner is your best route to have fun while still learning right now.

You'll get better, it doesn't happen overnight. Stick with it.

I 100% agree. I played about 4 matches and the last 3 of them were against people who were clearly a few leagues above my rank. I stopped playing after that. So basically the reason you can't find me to fight is because I'm long gone, as is everyone else of my skill level. Sorry! That's how online games without matchmaking go. The problem just compounds itself.

I feel like this game being pitched as the "Beginner's Fighting Game" is deceptive. Eight Buttons is still a ton of buttons to juggle, not to mention that combos and chains and all that shit still requires the level of precise fuck off timing as other fighting games that aren't Killer Instinct which excised that stuff 20 years ago. Playing this isn't as fun to me as playing Killer Instinct 2013. I may not know any non-Sabrewolf characters in that game but I like its basics more than I like these basics. You can do combos pretty easily and breaking them is fun as well. Not so much in this one.

Like listen. The hard part about fighting games isn't quarter circles, it's the chains. It including quarter circles doesn't help, but seriously the examples I saw in a Rising Thunder primer a few weeks back such as "c.L, M(f)-H" aren't that much easier to do/follow just because I don't have to do a quarter circle during them. They're still super daunting.

I do think they're doing something very smart for Fighting Game players though as, as Jeff and Jason have basically said, they've happened to remove a source of errors in fighting games. There's less room to blame the inputs and enemies will fold under pressure less forcing out more consistent play. Fighting game people are apparently getting way into it. It's just not approachable at the same time.

My hope is that they will have a really good tutorial system that teaches new players good fundamentals, which they lack at the moment since it's still in Alpha. I think knowing good fundamentals will help one win matches more so than being able to do longer links or combos, a basic bread and butter combo should just be enough to for someone to hold their own while they're still learning.

Matchmaking on the other hand is an entirely different story.

@mikefightnight:

Being toxic in games is something that totally repels someone from it. So unapproachable online battles are as toxic as assholes. So people should take to heart that this issue is in fact toxic to the potential growth and popularity of this game. It doesn't have the base and (so far) marketing that something like Dota has to push people over that learning curve.

The bulk of what you're saying is addressing something else. I agree that a good game should have depth. That's not what this is about. And you are trying to explain what I get. You don't need to explain to me how to enjoy a fighting game. I am fairly good at MK and most people in the forums get fighting games. What I'm trying to express is that I need to practice and there is no avenue to improve. That is the point. I can't figure out my combos, I can't understand how to create space, rush, control, because every move I can make has been worked out and is dominated by a skilled playing. That's the point.

Of course I'm going to keep playing, but most people are not going to be that patient, they are going to log on a few times and then put it down. Right now the only people who are getting into this alpha are people who follow fighting games, so it's not a problem. Later though, when word spreads that this is suppose be a more approachable fighting game. That person who logs on and has a few matches is going to go, "Uh this is the same shit," and leave it. It's the structure that is the larger problem now, otherwise this is just another fighting game most people will suck at.

Now to a certain extent, there is only so much you can do to make a ranking system to match people up, eventually there will just be the skilled players, like any game. So I don't know what the answer is, but I feel like the balance of making a good fighting game and being approachable has yet to be achieved. Maybe the gameplay can be tweaked to help new players catch moves, see special queues, slow things down at some points. I don't know if these are good or bad ideas but as of now, this is forming up to be another giant barrier to entry.

:

I don't see how chains in this are a huge barrier. A lot of them can almost be mashed out with only a few requiring linking of frames (mostly on Dauntless). Compare that the something like Street Fighter 4, Mortal Kombat, or GOD FORBID Virtua Fighter (so many 1 frame links my god) and this is way more lenient. SFV is removing 1 frame links and replacing them with 3 frame links, making them way easier as well though, so this sort of non-problem is becoming more and more removed anyways. I will agree that the 8 button thing is a little bit off and I wish they allowed for 2-button press versions as well as the single press shortcut buttons just to make players of other fighting games feel more comfortable.

Fighting games take a lot of time. They will never and should never be a genre that you can jump into with no practice. Practice your footsies, practice punishing, practice combos, practice reliable execution. After you get that down, you should be able to cake walk your way to at least bronze and from there, learn to read the enemy and think about what they're going to do next. Once you have THAT down, then you just need to hone in on where you're weak and practice more to get rid of your weaknesses. Someone out there will always be better than you, even if you think otherwise. That's why you have to keep practicing even once you make it to the 'top', but it all starts from a foundation of practice and persistence.

Poor matchmaking is the real killer for fighting games, and the main reason I gave up the genre entirely a few years ago.

These things are a blast when there are a ready supply of opponents around your level, but if even Rising Thunder can't provide that kind of experience then what's the point?

Git gud!

Anyways in a serious note. I think that blaming the game for pairing you up with stronger people and straight up say is unplayable is far more "toxic" than the fact of players being strong. In any game it happens, you could be playing shooters, moba, etc.. Just cause the game is new, doesn't mean the genre is new, and there is always people who has been playing those types of games for a while and even if their rank is a rookie, they have basic knowledge on how to play that transfer to any game, even if the mechanics are different, they will take less time to learn them.

In most fighting games(or at least those with the option available) usually have lobbies which their main focus is beginners, which allows you to play the game at your skill level with other players, right now that's not the case but hopefully in the future it is. Anyways, when it comes to FGs in general, I still think playing people who are better than you is the best way to improve, because even if you don't get to play, you see what your opponent does, and you might get some answers on what you are supposed to do. Yes, losing sucks, Also the fact that if a player is so good that doesn't even lets you apply theory into practice is stressful. But you will always find someone who will be at your same skill level and you'll both progress at your own pace.

In the end, if you don't play it, you don't get good. If losing is something negative for you then at least don't discourage others to try a game that people is spending valuable time of their life to create and just give feedback, after all, is still on testing.

I think the problem with the game is that the people who would play this are a self selecting group. Who will care enough about a fighting game IN ALPHA to play it, even if it's meant to be beginner friendly? The people already invested in fighting games. I'd wager most people that have even heard of this game will be mostly made up of people who read about it on Shoyruken or follow Seth Killian or something. Until this game fully comes out and hits the front page of Steam or Pewdiepie plays it or something and it hits mainstream, it's always going to be mostly known by people in the fgc

If you look at something like Divekick which basically had no barrier to entry, it was still largely dominated by people in the fgc. Hell I don't think a single one of my friends had even heard of it other than people that payed attention to fighting games and EVO and such, despite it barely even being a fighting game.

I know you basically already said this OP but I'm just reiterating. The biggest issues with fighting games I see is getting the word out and convincing non fighting game players to even TRY them, even if the game is in part designed for them.

@kuutochi said:

Rather patronizing. This is my feedback and you seem to ignore what I posted on practice and being approachable. I'm starting to see a theme of "You just don't understand."

That's why I tend not to play online games at all. Despite being able to play a few genre's decently, there's too much static behind getting into decent games.

*)If you're new, people treat you like you are an idiot or are intentionally losing just because it's your first time. I remember playing Syndicate for literally the first time and getting into a match where my partners immediately ran out and got themselves killed. They wanted me to revive them, but I couldn't figure out how. So, they kicked me out of the game. THEY get killed immediately, and *I* get kicked out.

*)If you buy a game even weeks after it's first out, everyone else is already way better than you and it's hard if not impossible to catch up.

*)If you are decent at a game, it becomes an obligation to keep playing in order to stay decent or else the community surpasses you

It's just not worth it to me.

You really don't know the percentage of players out there who are relative to your skill leave, active online at that moment, AND open for a match. It is possible the vast majority of folks playing Rising Thunder are people who have been practicing, or experienced/skilled fighters, which cannot be consider a fault. Bummer that it doesn't have built-in AI for practice, but all you can play with is what's available, and practice to become better.

So it seems like many aren't reading my replies and just reading the first post and the title. Not sure if this is against forum rules but I'll post my reply again so people read it.

"Being toxic in games is something that totally repels someone from it. So unapproachable online battles are as toxic as assholes. So people should take to heart that this issue is in fact toxic to the potential growth and popularity of this game. It doesn't have the base and (so far) marketing that something like Dota has to push people over that learning curve.

The bulk of what you're saying is addressing something else. I agree that a good game should have depth. That's not what this is about. And you are trying to explain what I get. You don't need to explain to me how to enjoy a fighting game. I am fairly good at MK and most people in the forums get fighting games. What I'm trying to express is that I need to practice and there is no avenue to improve. That is the point. I can't figure out my combos, I can't understand how to create space, rush, control, because every move I can make has been worked out and is dominated by a skilled playing. That's the point.

Of course I'm going to keep playing, but most people are not going to be that patient, they are going to log on a few times and then put it down. Right now the only people who are getting into this alpha are people who follow fighting games, so it's not a problem. Later though, when word spreads that this is suppose be a more approachable fighting game. That person who logs on and has a few matches is going to go, "Uh this is the same shit," and leave it. It's the structure that is the larger problem now, otherwise this is just another fighting game most people will suck at.

Now to a certain extent, there is only so much you can do to make a ranking system to match people up, eventually there will just be the skilled players, like any game. So I don't know what the answer is, but I feel like the balance of making a good fighting game and being approachable has yet to be achieved. Maybe the gameplay can be tweaked to help new players catch moves, see special queues, slow things down at some points. I don't know if these are good or bad ideas but as of now, this is forming up to be another giant barrier to entry."

Stop worrying about winning or losing matches. Focus on seeing what the opponent is doing. When you can recognize what they're doing, try blocking or avoiding it. Once you can do that, work on figuring what attack will result in a punish. Once you know what that attack is, you can focus on finding out if there's anything that combos off of that.

The above cycle only starts when you lose. Every time you lose a match, it's a gift. It's a whole new puzzle to work out. Stop thinking "I should be winning." Start thinking "I have to stop losing to this particular tactic." Once you've seen a certain threshold of tactics and conquered them, winning will follow from that.

The way I see it, fighting people your own level will only result in you picking up bad habits. Opponents on your level will fail to punish you when you make mistakes. Opponents on your level will blindly walk into your badly thought through attacks. These opponents might get you some wins, but they will condition you into making bad choices when fighting better opponents. Then when you lose to those better opponents, you'll wonder why stuff that worked before doesn't work even once.

The beginning of all of this is when you let go of the pride of thinking that you should win and you accept with humility that you have something that you need to learn.

Imagine putting that on the back of a box.

It is the truth though. If you want to be good you have to put in practice. It is why it is so rewarding, and also why so many people have no interest in fighting games.

I clicked on this assuming it would be another 'omg chel so op omg' thread, so good on ya.

You consider losing as toxic.

That's a pretty bad way of thinking. I have never heard anyone describe a game being too hard to win at as toxic. That's all I have to say really, everything that needs to be said has been said.

The desire for a ranked system that would match people based on skill is a very valid request and one that would slightly alleviate your problems, everything else you put though comes across as rather silly. Finally toxic continues to be a super dumb word with how it is used here.

@fredchuckdave: Divekick kind of did that to itself. It started off as "anyone can play this, because there's too buttons" and then either through in house design or listening to hardcore fighting game players went down the same rabbit hole of, "Now here's ten different characters who all act differently, some of them dramatically so and here's some skill gems that will also affect how it plays". But then the hardcore players weren't all that interested in it because there's not much to it and it's also kind of a shit game to play online.

I'd wait for matchmaking to be in and working before writing Rising Thunder off. It's not a fully released product yet.

Yeah, I like the game a lot but I'm still not convinced this game is as friendly to new players as the developers want it to be. That being said, a game doesn't necessarily have to cater to new players to make it big. Dota 2 is one of the most unfriendly to new players experience I've ever had with a game and its super popular. It'll be interesting to see if Rising Thunder goes anywhere or just fizzles due to people having similar frustrations as the OP.

Also just an aside, but I think it's funny that I had the exact opposite problem the OP had. I got into Rising Thunder pretty easily but man MKX wrecked me in a way no fighting game has done in a long time. I did OK in MK9 and Injustice, but there's something about MKX where I had a hard time even getting out of block strings. There's a point in fighting games where you get beat so badly that you can't even really learn what you're doing wrong, and that's what a lot of my MKX matches were like. Much like Rising Thunder it also didn't help that MKX also seemed to have either completely broken or just nonexistent skill based matchmaking for ranked mode. It was like beating my head against a brick wall, and I gave up after a while. So I guess I understand the OP's frustration pretty well, just with opposite games.

I'd have to agree with some people that it's not the motions as much as the links which keep people from fighting games, among a ton of other minute details. I've tried many times to get into fighting games and it was never about not being able to pull off the quarter circle, it was about doing the jump in, to crouch, to medium hits or whatever links that require a ton of muscle memory and are hard to figure out. I'd spend a lot of time in training mode trying to get them down and you're not given that much info on how you're screwing up. If they block then you did it too slow, if it doesn't come out you did it too fast - there, thats your info, now do it. So I'd sit there and try to link the 2-3 hits and I don't know, the timing was just beyond me. I couldn't tell when I pressed the buttons too fast or too slow apart from how my dummy opponent reacted.

Rising Thunder is on the right path, but it only took out one small part of a very large and complex puzzle.

This is why I have such a hard time getting into Ultra. The most basic combos require such strict timing, that it feels nigh impossible to make it a consistent thing. Its just luck whether or not the string comes out or not. It's very frustrating. Also, eff the focus mechanic.

Play ArcSys/Air-dasher fighters, they're a lot easier in that regard. And imo, way more rewarding and fun. You are fighting the opponent more than you're fighting the game.

My problem with Rising Thunder (other than the aesthetic) is the lack of special inputs. Sounds very dull to me, but I haven't gotten around to giving it a shot yet. But 1 button specials just doesn't sound rewarding. Much like the 1 button DPs in Persona.

@esrever: Yah the problem is that I really like the Sf aesthetic. I like the characters, I like the way they move and I like that apart from the links it's a relatively simple game with a ton of detail. I really dislike the way "anime" fighters play and look which is why I've never given any of them much of a try.

Got to agree that people online are just of a skill that I cannot do anything useful against. I loved fighting games since a bootleg port of SF2 to a famiclone we had but perhaps not in the way that competitive players love them. I love when you can come up with stuff on the fly, reacting to the opponent with basic abilities that you got. Real competitive play seems to go much deeper though, with deconstructing how to make the most damaging combos in the most optimal way. Thinking about the game in more than a fight but some sort of a managing simulator in order to solve the game doesn't really appeal to me. It feels like you are breaking the game rather than getting good at it. After playing Rising Thunder I have a feeling that removing those inputs only leads to people solving the game faster. Everyone who I played against have completely destroyed me with almost unending combos that felt like a rehearsed demonstration. I just had no idea how to react or how to do even half of that 15 hit combo the guy did on me. Playing SF 4 online I had some terrible matches but getting so completely devastated was not a guarantee. Hell, even playing SF 3 online doesn't make you feel that bad. Those games allow you to do damage even without memorizing everything, just by using what you got at times you think is right. I don't know if having a better matchmaking system could fix this. It's just so based on memorization that I can't see it becoming much more intuitive.

Heh, walked in here thinking it would be a complaint about lag, at least this seems more legit. Makes me a bit sad too as i just downloaded it the other night. It's still real early so hopefully this crap will be ironed out. The community and excitement surrounding it may move on by then, though.

I made the mistake of picking up a fight stick on impulse despite not being really into fighting games, and trying to learn Poison in SF4 all on my little lonesome. I dread actually taking it online but i'd like to stick with it regardless.

@ripelivejam said:

Your puns really are relentless.

If a game has very easy execution but still has somewhat lengthy combos it's going to be simple for higher level players (apparently just people that play fighting games on the regular) to become excellent at it. Also most of the community was going to be FGC people anyway.

I'm seeing a general sense of combos being the source of problems when trying to learn fighting games. That's the wrong way to go about it. Combos should be the last thing you should worry about. Unfortunately they're also the most obvious thing to see so it becomes easy to fixate on combos as the path to getting better. General fundamentals should be worked and perfected first before getting into the long combo mindset. Spacing and zone control needs to be emphasized over all else. Most, if not all, fighting games fail at giving the player enough feedback to understand that fact.

Unless Rising Thunder develops some way for new players to learn and understand that, then this game will continue to fall into the same pitfalls that other fighting games do.

If Drew can learn and win matches in RT then no-one else can use this silly it's too hard/everyone's too good for me to learn excuse.

@flstyle said:

Honestly, that is the approach people should be taking when trying to learn fighting games, or any competitive game in general. Take notes and analyze what you and other players do to succeed. If you watch EVO you can see many players looking up notes in between matches. Being able to analyze and learn from both your wins and losses is an invaluable skill.

Sounds like Rising Thunder is cutting out the execution mistakes that pestered players with an understanding of SF-style fighting games, without really making the game much more approachable for new folks. So you end up with people who used to be limited to 4 hit combos graduating to full 15 hitters, but the people who can't perform a combo are at an even worse disadvantage as a result. They streamlined the path from good to great and made great players more consistent, but didn't really help bad players get good.

I hope the full game will have a really robust tutorial/ ranked match system to make up for that discrepancy. Then again, if you're building on the skeleton of SF, then experienced fighting game players will always have a huge, potentially insurmountable advantage.

I think if you want to create a more accessible fighting game, you really need to go the Smash Bros route and change the fundamental structure of how the game is played. You need to do things like remove combos or health bars while also simplifying the controls. You need to make the game multiplayer and inject some chaos. I actually wrote a piece on how Nintendo games, including Smash Bros, managed to be more accessible if you want more of an examination.

@officer_falcon: It's really easy to say that people shouldn't fixate on combos, but the difference between needing to beat someone's defenses 3 times or 10 times is huge, especially when one combo opens the door to another easy mixup. Simply not having the ability to combo someone makes competitively playing games with robust combo systems much harder for new players.

It would be like going to a local rec center and playing a game of 1 on 1 where more experienced players' shots count for twice as many points. Even if you do everything fundamentally right as a new player, they have a much bigger margin for error on top of their greater overall understanding of the game. The experienced player knows more and better ways to score, and their baskets are more effective to boot. That is the system that most fighting games employ, and while it is incredibly rewarding for experienced players, it is also the type of thing that stops people from really diving in fresh.

This issue is compounded if the online matchmaking isn't matching similar skill levels appropriately.

@thatpinguino: Yeah, exactly. It's hard to learn, easy to master.

Yeah, I think a tutorial or a training mode feature which addresses these things (to go along with learning proper FG fundamentals and defense) would go a long way to helping people get into these kinds of fighting games on their own. The ideal way is often with the help of someone being there to also help train with you but the reality is that not many of us have that as an option.

I think the majority of the people who signed up for the Alpha are people who have experience with FGs so the matchmaking system is being "overridden" or "bypassed" in a sense.

@thatpinguino: Even without combos an experienced player will continue to stomp new players. The only solution to that I can see is proper matchmaking and tutorials.

Yes, combos give players with the proper execution advantages to maximize on opportunities but for beginning players that shouldn't matter. They still need to work on being able to reliably do damage in the first place. If they can't reliably hit or block an opponent, it doesn't matter whether or not they can link moves together.

Rising Thunder is still in alpha, maybe they have some plans to address this. Maybe not. Eliminating the commands to do special moves obviously isn't the solution. It may be part of a larger plan but as it stands this game is still just Street Fighter.

Edit:

As an addendum to my point, this video of Gootecks teaching Xavier Woods how to play SFV helps to illustrate the point of fundamentals being more important than combos.

They made the game more accessible to newcomers, NOT made it ridiculously easy for newcomers. There still is a learning curve that you have to practice to understand as there is with any multiplayer game.

They want to welcome newcomers, but still make it in depth for veterans because let's face it, it's the veterans that are going to play the longest. If they can get even a fraction of the newcomers to stay on board and develop the skill of a veteran then this game is a success. It's already got Drew understanding the mechanics of a fighting game a lot more than he use too.

@officer_falcon: An alternative option is to incorporate some amount of randomness into the main game mode like smash does. Things like moving stagest, random items, moves with random power levels, and arena multiplayer allow for new players to have a chance. New players will still likely lose, but they can at least have a good time doing it.

Of course all of that would need to be optional for competitive play, but its better to have he default mode be inviting than daunting.

Everyone needs to just watch Drew's video. It is so packed with good information. I also watched the one with xavier woods which was fine. Drews video was better, because it demonstrated perfectly the process of learning some overall tricks and stuff.

I lost 4 matches in a row, the first 4 I played, then I won one and was all excited.. After that I lost something like 15 in a row. It was devastating to the point where I was just angrily requeuing after every loss to punish myself for sucking. Then.. Suddenly things started making sense. Seems like it took me about two hours to reach the point where the game "slows down" in a way, because you understand what the opponent is about to do, and you don't get surprised by every single move the other person is doing. I now know exactly when people are likely to jump, I've learned where people start their attacks from, when they might charge etc.

Just stick with it. You'll kinda suddenly start seeing your agony turn into actual understanding. When you win two in a row and you can say "I actually WON those two, not just lucked into some mashymash moron opponent" that is a good day.

My prior exposure to fighting games was about 10 hours of SF4. Ten agonizing hours. This game is far FAR easier to learn.

Haha this right here is why I will never get/ care about fighting games! Im sure its all good advice and well explained, but I have NO idea what any of that even means

@thatpinguino: I don't think that will really solve the issue of new players encountering experienced players. I've seen advanced Smash play and they will still completely stomp new players. At most it would delay how fast they would lose.

As far as putting in ways to have new players continue to have fun while losing, I think that depends entirely on the type of player. People who are already into fighting games probably are used to the feel of defeat and can accept it. For people who just want to have fun they probably should stay away from ranked games. As the game stands now, it won't be a satisfying experience. Maybe in the future the developers would implement some type of unranked "just for fun" matchmaking. That won't solve the issue of the skill gap but by segmenting the playerbase it could, in theory, reduce the chances of new players encountering opponents out of their league.

@flstyle: Drew was also occasionally getting matched with people close to his own level. I haven't seen a single other carbon tier player. It's hard to practice fundamentals while getting constantly owned.

I think more the issue is that out of most fighting games I'm probably the worst at Street Fighter. I like playing it but I just don't "get it" compared to other fighters. I was getting incredibly frustrated with the handful of games I played this weekend though where I had no idea how to do any combos or string together attacks to form my own combos and just getting my ass handed to me.

@officer_falcon: It doesn't solve the issue of inexperienced players battling experienced players on even footing, it mitigates the likelihood of that happening at all. Just watch Dan playing against a skilled Smash player as an example:

Dan is a lot worse than the Sheik player, but because he picks a favorable (tournament illegal) map and a character with a 1 hit KO, he is able to take a game. Even when he's getting dominated, he still gets to play the game instead of getting juggled into oblivion. It's not 3 missed blocks and done. Systems like that allow inexperienced players to have fun in a social setting without being completely exposed.

By adding some elements of randomness a lesser player can win every once and a while and they can feel like they have a chance in every game. That makes the game enjoyable for everyone without quarantining sections of the game.

Of course proper matchmaking is crucial either way, but getting a wider audience also means allowing people to dream that they could win if the stars line up correctly. Adding something like random critical hits or modifiers could help. Removing combos could help. Adding stage hazards could help.

There's nothing wrong with giving the game a high skill ceiling, but, if you're going to do that and you want to reach a new audience, you need to make sure that the skill floor is fun too. Segmenting the audience is one option, but I think the better one is to build systems that allow people from the floor to beat someone in the middle/top every once and a while. That way new players can enjoy learning through play against anyone, rather than grinding it out in training mode until they can hack it with the ranked players.

Git gud, Scrub quotes material, etc.

@barrabas: Dota 2 is a still a team-based game, so even while it's almost completely impenetrable to many players, losing doesn't sting quite as much as in a fighting game, where losing straight up means you as a player aren't as good. And for a lot of people that's something that's really hard to swallow.