Umm, why the hell is this so empty?

#1 Posted by jeffrud (376 posts) -

This system has something like a dozen hardware iterations, it has been disassembled and analyzed to death, and was the last great Sega console (ZING!). Why don't we fill this out a bit?

#2 Posted by jeffrud (376 posts) -

...Wait, you're telling me this is just for the console in games? Good god.

#3 Posted by FLStyle (4396 posts) -

@jeffrud: That is the object, you're looking for the platform, Genesis.

#4 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

If it's empty and you have the knowledge, fill it out.

#5 Edited by Cloudenvy (5890 posts) -

I'm really confused.

#6 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4655 posts) -

@Cloudenvy said:

I'm really confused.

I'm confused as well.

#7 Posted by iAmJohn (6091 posts) -

@ImmortalSaiyan said:

@Cloudenvy said:

I'm really confused.

I'm confused as well.

Dude is bitching that we don't have a good page about the Sega Genesis when we in fact do and he's looking at the wrong page.

#8 Posted by jeffrud (376 posts) -

@iAmJohn: Yeah, you're spot on. This is what happens when no coffee.

#9 Posted by iAmJohn (6091 posts) -

@jeffrud: Happens to the best of us.

#10 Posted by Dagbiker (6898 posts) -

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

#11 Posted by jeffrud (376 posts) -

Agreed. Turns out there's also an "object" page for the SNES, but its text says the following:

This page is for the SNES as it appears in video games.

Compare this to the text for this article, and I think this could be cleared up a bit. Unfortunately, the editor won't let me make changes to the current text.

#12 Edited by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

It's not immediately obvious that the page is about the Genesis as it appears in games. I'm currently unable to find an ingame screenshot to clarify but maybe it would be a good candidate for a wiki task.

EDIT: Nevermind, I got bitten by the wiki-improvement bug. However if anyone could find some more screenshots, that would be awesome.

#13 Posted by LordAndrew (13982 posts) -

Delightfully Meta

Documentation of computers, consoles, and related items that appear within video games.

The title of this list was taken from a PM sent to me by jensonb, describing this blog. I was invited onto the Bomb Should Have A Face podcast to discuss the blog, but the episode never aired. It lives on in the form of a completely unrelated list.

1. Computer

Computers within video games are quite common. Their purpose varies depending on the game. Sometimes you can even play games on them.

2. Laptop
3. Arcade Cabinet

Seeing arcade cabinets in video games was a lot more common back when arcades still existed, but they have made occasional appearances in modern games as well.

4. PlayStation
5. PlayStation 2

Unfortuantely, this page is such a mess that I really can't tell which games the PS2 has actually appeared in. Do your part by removing games that don't belong.

6. PlayStation 3
7. PlayStation Portable
8. NES
9. SNES
10. Nintendo 64
11. GameCube
12. Wii

Most often seen in Nintendo's own games, but also appeared in some Japanese PC game.

13. Wii Remote

The Wii Remote: the thing what controls the games. It has appeared in video games alongside the Wii, and sometimes on its own.

14. Wii Classic Controller
15. Xbox
16. Xbox 360
17. Sega Genesis

Subject of a recent forum thread (May 2, 2013) by someone who doesn't understand how the wiki works.

18. Sega Saturn
19. Dreamcast
20. Neo Geo Pocket
21. iPod

Although it serves as a portable music player in most of its video game appearances, it is capable of playing video games. I guess I list it here just because of its potential.

22. PDA

Remember PDAs? They're like smartphones, but without the phone part. Aliens used them to play video games, apparently.

23. Video Game Characters That Play Video Games

They're playing video games! In a video game!

24. Lookalike Hardware

Some games will use a device similar to an existing gaming device, be it the Game Boy Horror in Luigi's Mansion (modeled after the Game Boy Color), the COMP in Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (modeled after the Nintendo DS), or what have you.

25. BMX XXX

A copy of the classic BMX XXX appears in Summer Heat Beach Volleyball.

#14 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

#15 Posted by iAmJohn (6091 posts) -

@TentPole said:

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

Why would it be stupid? Video game consoles occasionally appear in video games, hence there being an object page for when they appear in video games.

#16 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@TentPole said:

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

Why would it be stupid? Video game consoles occasionally appear in video games, hence there being an object page for when they appear in video games.

The very existence of this thread is a wonderful example of why it is so stupid.

#17 Posted by LordAndrew (13982 posts) -

@TentPole said:

@iAmJohn said:

@TentPole said:

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

Why would it be stupid? Video game consoles occasionally appear in video games, hence there being an object page for when they appear in video games.

The very existence of this thread is a wonderful example of why it is so stupid.

The problem is that it's called "Sega Genesis". If people type that into the search box, this perfect match appears at the top while the aliased platform page appears at the bottom. They then click the first result they see without thinking. Even Alex did that the other day, linking to Pipo Saru 2001 as if it was a character page.

#18 Posted by iAmJohn (6091 posts) -

@TentPole said:

@iAmJohn said:

@TentPole said:

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

Why would it be stupid? Video game consoles occasionally appear in video games, hence there being an object page for when they appear in video games.

The very existence of this thread is a wonderful example of why it is so stupid.

Wait, did you really personally write me a PM response only to ignore the response I gave you and make another response in the thread where you basically say the exact same thing?

#19 Posted by SpaceRunaway (809 posts) -

@LordAndrew:

Hahaha, I can't decide if #19 or #20 is my favorite.

#20 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -

Wow, this is really kind of stupid. So you're telling me that there is a page for systems such as the Genesis and 360, but their is another page for the thing as an object appearing in a game? That seems really ridiculous. Shouldn't their just be one entry for every single thing, and then the page should be designed in such a way that if you need it to appear as an object in a game that you have that as a tab, or a separate column to look at or something. Just seems strange that they would make the decision to have multiples of things because of context instead of just putting that context within the pages.

#21 Posted by 71Ranchero (2580 posts) -

@jeffrud said:

and was the last great Sega console (ZING!)

Ah, the mating sound of the "Ignoramus Gamerus".

#22 Posted by LordAndrew (13982 posts) -

@DoctorWelch: There is no concept of context on Giant Bomb, so this has to do. There isn't a lot of overlap normally, so it's not something that really needs to get done considering the amount of work that would have to go into implementing it.

#23 Edited by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -

@LordAndrew: Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you meant when you said "there is no concept of context"? When I said context I just meant the difference between all the different choices under the "Browse" section at the top of the site, that's the context I'm referring to. I'm not saying I know all the work that would go into implementation, but it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to just allow one single page to be in multiple categories. For instance, lets just say someone creates the Genesis page way back when however many years ago, and the object page for it had not yet existed. Then, instead of someone coming along and creating an object page for it as well, someone can just request that original page be included as an object. Then the page is given another tab at the top that says "object" and then all the games that the Genesis appears in are shown on that page. Or maybe at the bottom where the games list is, another list is added of all the games it appears as an object in. Something like that doesn't seem to complicated, and then it avoids confusion with multiple pages for one actual thing.

#24 Edited by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@TentPole said:

@iAmJohn said:

@TentPole said:

@Dagbiker said:

But you have to admit, that having one page detected to the "object" and one to the "platform" is kinda stupid.

Why would it be stupid? Video game consoles occasionally appear in video games, hence there being an object page for when they appear in video games.

The very existence of this thread is a wonderful example of why it is so stupid.

Wait, did you really personally write me a PM response only to ignore the response I gave you and make another response in the thread where you basically say the exact same thing?

I sent you a PM since my comment was not relevant to the thread as a whole. You PMed me a response. I decided to respond in the main thread as I felt my response was relevant to the thread as a whole.

For example: this explanation should be a PM as it is not relevant to anyone but you but seeing as how you seem to have an issue with that distinction I am now bogging down the thread with a comment that has no relevance to anyone else.

@DoctorWelch: You make a lot of sense.

#25 Posted by Brackynews (3966 posts) -

@DoctorWelch: LordAndrew knows his stuff about wiki development, so I don't think you need to try and sell him on how simple something "seems to be". (BTW, this is my career field, so I'm chiming in with some awareness of these issues too. ;) If you'd like to send that idea along to Dave I'm sure he'll entertain ideas for the upcoming rewrite of the wiki. There's a lot of things that could be improved, most definitely. Most of Giant Bomb's codebase originated from Comic Vine. Jeff and Dave recently talked about how differently they would do things from scratch. I often think of the Tested wiki that "might have been." :)

Object pages are a poor example for this kind of reasoning, because they are often so simple. If you explore the site a little bit more I think you'll discover how deep the rabbit hole can go. Let's stick with "Sonic the Hedgehog" for the moment. That is a Game, a Character, a Franchise, and could also qualify for an Object page but looks like nobody has done so... (hmm.) Just take a look at the disambiguation page on Wikipedia.How useful would all that information be on a single page? Where would you start? And no, saying "reduce the amount of information" is not an option. Assume it can only grow. That's reality.

The wiki here automatically knows which category you're looking for based on the field you're editing (say, franchise). Fine, you click it and it takes you there. But if you put "sonic the hedgehog" into the search box, it has to present you with a list of choices for which category you want (disambiguation). One single page with all of that information would frighten people away. It would still need some sort of filtering to give you relevancy. How the wiki does that on the back end is kind of irrelevant to the user, but it has to be scalable and maintainable. More data granularity allows for more discovery, it's the reason why First Name and Last Name are best kept as separate fields in a database.

What you've described the way you've described it - as far as I understand you - could be a good way to do things on the back end, sure. But what you've said doesn't do anything to solve the issue of how to present information the user actually wants to see, or change how the user actually links to data about the character versus the franchise versus the game. We're left with exactly the same issue that started the thread. Someone doesn't quickly realise they're looking at a specific tab or how they got there, and they wonder why it's so empty. It'll happen, I promise. Sonic the character needs an overview. Sonic the franchise needs an overview...

And if you're only saying "just get rid of Object pages" because they're not significant, realise that there are users who say "just get rid of Concept pages". So the line is subjective.

#26 Posted by SpydrMrphy (88 posts) -

@LordAndrew said:

17. Sega Genesis

Subject of a recent forum thread (May 2, 2013) by someone who doesn't understand how the wiki works.

Wait, May 2, 2013?! So you can see that some one will make a mistake in the future as well?

#27 Posted by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -

Simply changing the default image of every item on the Delightfully Meta list to an ingame rendering of said console would go a long way to clearing up all the confusion, IMO. To be honest, I'm kind've baffled that most of the default images are real-world pictures. Who thought that was a good idea?

#28 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -

@Brackynews: Wow, that is really a hell of a lot crazier and more complicated than I thought, especially when dealing with franchises like sonic that have been around for a long time and even have multiple games with the same name. I feel like what I'm saying for that specific situation makes perfect sense, but then its hard to make a standard throughout the whole wiki system because each case is unique, and it doesn't makes sense for the user experience or the time investment to develop a different way of presenting information for each individual case.

At the very least, I think it would be a good idea to reduce confusion by trying to present information to the user that they may not even know exists. For instance, lets say I go to this page for Sonic the Hedgehog, but actually want this page. Well on wikipedia they link you straight to the disambiguation page at the top in case you are confused, which is nice. So at the very least I think GB needs that. I think it could go a step further though, and make prominent links to each page that has the exact same name as the page you are currently on. That way the confusion is severely reduced. As it stands now though, it's completely reasonable that the OP would get confused.

#29 Posted by jeffrud (376 posts) -

I'm amazed at how my confusion has started a thread. Chaos! Pandemonium! And as for my comments regarding "real" consoles or whatever, I only ever owned a Genesis and loved it. My attachment to Nintendo going past that is emotional mostly. The Dreamcast was fine, and I intend to get one at some point. It's just hard looking up the details of the console when the first item that shows in a Wiki search is the Dreamcast's appearances in other games.

#30 Posted by LordAndrew (13982 posts) -

I think part of the problem is the page types. Not that they exist, but that they are not explained except on a "help" page that no one really wants to read. You search "Sega Genesis" and get a top result "Sega Genesis" marked as an "object". If you notice that at all, you might think "Yep, the Sega Genesis is an object all right." You click it and are whisked away to a page that tells you Sega Genesis is a video game object. Still you are not told what that actually means. This is a more general problem, and I'm interested in how we could solve that without simplifying the structure that already exists.

This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.